View Full Version : Cowitness and the Ultimak on an AK - a bit disappointing
Put an Ultimak on my SAIGA with a first gen primary arms micro, and even tried my MD 25 on it and can BARELY get cowitness. Hard to pick up and you really cannot see the bottom of the round cutout on the ears. I don't have this problem on a VZ 58 with an NEA rail.
It is cowtinessed? yes, but so low as to be kind of a joke.
Causes? My front sight is set nicely and I want to leave it alone. It is at a reasonable height so I don't want to change it.
I just also put in a real Russian sight so maybe it sits a bit low - it shouldn't.
Put the GKR-10MS rail from RSR. While this could easily be the culprit, I've checked for interference from the handguard, but cannot find any. Thoughts?
(Is there a LOWER micro?)
The kind of cowitness you want (like with an AR) isn't gonna happen on an AK, HK (90 series) and many others.
The kind of cowitness you want (like with an AR) isn't gonna happen on an AK, HK (90 series) and many others.
I get that, but I'd like to see more of the rear blade than I do - like on my VZ 58 which is decent even with a SIG stock.
I have an Ultimak but use it primarily as a light attachment point. I use an Aimpoint H2 on an RS Regulate mount, which also offers “cowitness” capability, much like you describe with the Ultimak the irons sit very very low within the optic’s field of view. It definitely isn’t as good as I expected it to be.
However I’m not *particularly* bothered by it though because if the red dot fails, at the distances where “instantaneous” transition to iron sights through the dead optic is likely to make the difference between life and death you could probably just use the dead optic itself as a giant ghost ring to some extent.
I’d probably keep an Allen or Torx key, whichever the mount on your optic uses, stashed in the pistol grip or elsewhere on the weapon (taped to the stock, the sling or something etc..) so you can remove the optic entirely if you think you’re going to be relying on the irons for a while though. I do that on my rifles that have optics that don’t use QD or thumbscrew mounts
I actually don't even try. I run a riser so I can look under the red dot to use the irons.
I get that, but I'd like to see more of the rear blade than I do - like on my VZ 58 which is decent even with a SIG stock.
I know, I spent years looking for similar solutions. Even a damn HK UMP won't co witness for shit.
I actually don't even try. I run a riser so I can look under the red dot to use the irons.
Yep, started doing that with my 90 series HKs. Grew up shooting carry handle mounted optics on ARs so the high mount really don't bother me.
Actually I tore it all down tonight. It’s not the RSR rail. My guess is that as AKs are all over the map on specs can end up either low or high on ultimak mounts and cowitness.
One thing I can do on this is quick reference the red dot on the front sight so all is not lost.
I likely will use a low detachable mount anyway.
At least the Ultimak provides a rock solid base for optics.
Actually I tore it all down tonight. It’s not the RSR rail. My guess is that as AKs are all over the map on specs can end up either low or high on ultimak mounts and cowitness.
One thing I can do on this is quick reference the red dot on the front sight so all is not lost.
I likely will use a low detachable mount anyway.
At least the Ultimak provides a rock solid base for optics.
It's not the setup you want, but if you have side rails I've found that kind of mount to be best for red dots.
I have an Ultimak on a SLR-95 and lucklily the Mojo hooded peep perfectly cowitnesses in the lower 1/3 of the T1 on OEM low mount.
Dennis.
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MadAngler1
01-09-22, 07:36
Put an Ultimak on my SAIGA with a first gen primary arms micro, and even tried my MD 25 on it and can BARELY get cowitness. Hard to pick up and you really cannot see the bottom of the round cutout on the ears. I don't have this problem on a VZ 58 with an NEA rail.
It is cowtinessed? yes, but so low as to be kind of a joke.
Causes? My front sight is set nicely and I want to leave it alone. It is at a reasonable height so I don't want to change it.
I just also put in a real Russian sight so maybe it sits a bit low - it shouldn't.
Put the GKR-10MS rail from RSR. While this could easily be the culprit, I've checked for interference from the handguard, but cannot find any. Thoughts?
(Is there a LOWER micro?)
The Ultimak with standard AK iron sights, std AK handguard, provides for a lower 1/4-1/3 cowitness when using an Aimpoint Comp M3/Pro and an Aimpoint low mount. It is solely meant to be a back up in emergencies, not an absolute co-witness like on an AR.
I would just run it like it is. You'll be fine without 1/3 or absolute co witness.
MadAngler1
01-09-22, 07:37
Put an Ultimak on my SAIGA with a first gen primary arms micro, and even tried my MD 25 on it and can BARELY get cowitness. Hard to pick up and you really cannot see the bottom of the round cutout on the ears. I don't have this problem on a VZ 58 with an NEA rail.
It is cowtinessed? yes, but so low as to be kind of a joke.
Causes? My front sight is set nicely and I want to leave it alone. It is at a reasonable height so I don't want to change it.
I just also put in a real Russian sight so maybe it sits a bit low - it shouldn't.
Put the GKR-10MS rail from RSR. While this could easily be the culprit, I've checked for interference from the handguard, but cannot find any. Thoughts?
(Is there a LOWER micro?)
The Ultimak with standard AK iron sights, std AK handguard, provides for a lower 1/4-1/3 cowitness when using an Aimpoint Comp M3/Pro and an Aimpoint low mount. It is solely meant to be a back up in emergencies, not an absolute co-witness like on an AR.
I would just run it like it is. You'll be fine without 1/3 or absolute co witness.
Thanks. Whatever I do I’d run a detachable mount if in a defensive use. But I’ll try it on other AKs to see how it might vary gun to gun.
On this SAIGA it’s a lower 10%. Not very useful.
It is ALSO about the same for an SA85M.
But on a Mak 90, there is NO cowitness - that is an easy reason - the MAK 90 has a thicker barrel and mounts a tad higher and eliminates cowitness.
I may just write Ultimak and ask them if their dimensions are DIFFERENT for the Mak 90 model. If it IS, I'd rather run them than the 'hole less' model.
The 'regular' model would work mush better if the barrel lugs on the bottom were 1mm smaller in the vertical direction - and this might be easy to attain with some 400 grit paper on the barrel. But here is the rub - how much can you change this dimension and NOT screw up gas tube alignment/clearance? Interesting problem.
Really - I think a tad lower and the mount is great with a micro and irons. I think there is a big advantage to have the option for cowitness. Not a MUST have, but better.
But the ultimak remains such a rock solid mount, running it is attractive.
titsonritz
01-09-22, 18:55
Aimpoint Micros sit lower on the Ulimak than PA sights and 1/3 co-witness perfect for me on both my SAR-1 and SLR-107F behind an SF M300 Scout w/ a Gear Sector mount.
Got a Gen 1 AP onboard AR with riser. Perhaps the vortex crossfire Gen 2 is low enough. I had no idea that the Ultimak had to use specific micros to cowitness - adn that maybe ONLY the AP is a solid solution.
It’s an experiment at this point. I would like to run on nonrailed AKs
There seems to be limited information on micros and AK cowitness. Wonder if RSR or MI micro side mounts are any lower?
A little experiment shows the PA MD 25 to be pretty low in an ARMS mount - this may be a way to AT least reference the sight - cowitness is so low.
Got a Gen 1 AP onboard AR with riser. Perhaps the vortex crossfire Gen 2 is low enough. I had no idea that the Ultimak had to use specific micros to cowitness - adn that maybe ONLY the AP is a solid solution.
It’s an experiment at this point. I would like to run on nonrailed AKs
There seems to be limited information on micros and AK cowitness. Wonder if RSR or MI micro side mounts are any lower?
A little experiment shows the PA MD 25 to be pretty low in an ARMS mount - this may be a way to AT least reference the sight - cowitness is so low.
Problem solved for the PA AMD MD 20 with push buttons - it gives a full lower third Cowtiness - no problem. The MD 25 does OK if your FS post is high enough.
Aimpoint micros will always sit lower.
For my AMD65 SBR and AK63 SA85m on T1 and compm2 they sit at exactly 1/3rd.
I've been down this road a hundred times trying to find an equal to the aimpoints and I have always failed.
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