View Full Version : .380 ACP isn’t so bad after all
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https://youtu.be/nycYxb-zNwc
Stopsign32v
01-10-22, 20:46
Well there you go, 380acp is more deadly than 9mm or 44 magnum because this cute little graph says so.
I personally know someone that took one to the stomach it was a hollow that didnt open up. Well he didnt die but he was down for the count. I trust 380 for self defense also, but just cant decide what gun most days thats the problem.
Alittle quip i like to say too is 380 is the most deadly caliber. It started a world war!
One shot stops sounds like Sanow and Marshall from back in the day.
I'm initially skeptical of some of this. I've killed a fair amount of animals with some of these calibers, and while deer and pigs are certainly not built like humans, I have a hard time believing any data set that shows a .22 to be more lethal than a .44 Magnum. Of course, there's all kinds of variables that could make data present that way.
Its a good study if you read the whole thing.
Mr. Ellefritz is aware of all of it's shortcomings including small sample sizes. Shootings can be a bit like car crashes. Each one is unique but some patterns can be found sometimes. But there isn't really an "average" car crash or "average" shooting. Way too many variables.
My takeaway is similar to Mr. Ellefritz's. Most of the time any gun can do if your mindset and skill level are good. About 85% of the time the cartridge was "enough" in this study as long as it wasn't a .22 or .25, which dropped down to about 65%.
IIRC the .32 catagory included .32 acp and .32 S&W Long. .32 acp can vary from 750 fps from Blazer from a P32 to 1000 fps from S&B a nearly 4 inch barrel like a Colt or Beretta Cheetah. At the threshold of "enough" penetration that's going to make a difference. The sample size of .32 was really small, too, adding to it's odd results. He writes about this in the study.
He did not include the types of bullets used, either. He was going for more of a "macro" look at what was happening.
Whatever you're packing, you need to be able to hit the target. That is rule number the first one.
I purchased my first ever .380 on Sunday. It really doesn't bother me much that it is only .380. There are very rare times when I can only carry my tiny Keltec P32 and I am fine with that as well.
Having anything is better than being a victim.
I went to every civilian shooting of a terrorist for 18 months.
I saw many failures in .380 or 9mm short as it is know outside the USA. It was such a failure I had a brother in law turn his 380 in for a real 9mm
I went to every civilian shooting of a terrorist for 18 months.
I saw many failures in .380 or 9mm short as it is know outside the USA. It was such a failure I had a brother in law turn his 380 in for a real 9mm
How many shootings and what was the failure rate? Also, how does that compare to the failure rate of a 9mm?
How many shootings and what was the failure rate? Also, how does that compare to the failure rate of a 9mm?
I don't have the document any more, it was during the intifada so the number of shootings was fairly high like an average of maybe 4 a week something like that.
The .380 was dramatically worse than 9mm. Remember we are talking Israel, so the calibers that people had in order from highest to lowest 9mm, 380, 32 auto. None of the other calibers had enough people using them to really matter.
I will never forget the ultra orthodox guy that had move from NYC, that stopped a terrorist take over of a bus with a Star PD and 6 rounds of .45acp. He shot 1 terrorist and the others fled. They later car jacked a poor woman that was later murdered by the @$$holes, when they cam on a road block we had set up. But no terrorist survived the day.
I don't have the document any more, it was during the intifada so the number of shootings was fairly high like an average of maybe 4 a week something like that.
The .380 was dramatically worse than 9mm. Remember we are talking Israel, so the calibers that people had in order from highest to lowest 9mm, 380, 32 auto. None of the other calibers had enough people using them to really matter.
I will never forget the ultra orthodox guy that had move from NYC, that stopped a terrorist take over of a bus with a Star PD and 6 rounds of .45acp. He shot 1 terrorist and the others fled. They later car jacked a poor woman that was later murdered by the @$$holes, when they cam on a road block we had set up. But no terrorist survived the day.
Invalid data point! Everyone knows Palestinian's can't shoot! :)
I went to every civilian shooting of a terrorist for 18 months.
I saw many failures in .380 or 9mm short as it is know outside the USA. It was such a failure I had a brother in law turn his 380 in for a real 9mm
In my experience, some of the .380 ammunition from outside CONUS is loaded much hotter. Was the .380 ammunition used in Israel loaded to SAAMI specs or European specs?
In my experience, some of the .380 ammunition from outside CONUS is loaded much hotter. Was the .380 ammunition used in Israel loaded to SAAMI specs or European specs?
European
.380 is a MAN STOPPER! with Knock Down power!
In my experience, some of the .380 ammunition from outside CONUS is loaded much hotter.
Could be. I remember when I was a kid, my buddy brought his POS 380 out... some walther knock off turd. I was amazed that plywood was stopping/capturing the bullets. (FMJs)
Oy vey. Not one of those silly info graphics is of value and demonstrates a poor/outdated understanding of terminal ballistics science. Smells like debunked Sanow and Marshall nonsense.
Until they chamber this gun in 9mm, I’m stuck with .380.
While I prefer my Sig P360, it is much harder to conceal with shorts and a tee shirt.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220111/771a5fc3bd0512e781198ec13d5fa21f.jpg
Oy vey. Not one of those silly info graphics is of value and demonstrates a poor/outdated understanding of terminal ballistics science. Smells like debunked Sanow and Marshall nonsense.
Give it a read.
It doesn't claim to provide all the answers. But I think it has value.
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
1_click_off
01-11-22, 11:52
Until they chamber this gun in 9mm, I’m stuck with .380.
While I prefer my Sig P360, it is much harder to conceal with shorts and a tee shirt.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220111/771a5fc3bd0512e781198ec13d5fa21f.jpg
They do, it is called a PM9. I have one with a crimson trace. I ditched my LCP with crimson trace for it and never looked back.
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/kahr-pm9-vs-ruger-lcp-ii
Until they chamber this gun in 9mm, I’m stuck with .380.
While I prefer my Sig P360, it is much harder to conceal with shorts and a tee shirt.
Dude, there's a bunch of 9mm pistols just slightly larger and easy as easy can be to deep conceal in shorts and T which I do in FL year round.
Give it a read.
It doesn't claim to provide all the answers. But I think it has value.
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
I see no utility from that article that adds anything to the discussion/topic.
I am going to be blunt. With the very small 9mm pistols in the market today, I see ZERO reason to carry a 380 for self defense. The smallest gun I ever carry is a Glock 26 with a +2 extended mag.
I have carried a fullsized pistol in shorts and T shirt and never been made. As Clint Smith says a gun is never small enough when your carrying it and never big enough if you have to fight with it. Or words to that effect.
Dude, there's a bunch of 9mm pistols just slightly larger and easy as easy can be to deep conceal in shorts and T which I do in FL year round.
Yep. I'd bet this is even smaller and it has the 1911 thing going for it as well.
https://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-10/p4128912211-5.jpg
Smaller, but not nearly as sexy as this one though.
https://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-10/p4112240055-5.jpg
Most all ammo was FMJ?
The .380 was dramatically worse than 9mm. Remember we are talking Israel, so the calibers that people had in order from highest to lowest 9mm, 380, 32 auto.
Most all ammo was FMJ?
Not all of it. But I have shot people with the best hollowpoints available and with ball. I didn't see a huge difference that would contribute to a different outcome to the fight.
I see no utility from that article that adds anything to the discussion/topic.
It is exactly the topic.
This study / article is where the data in those graphs came from.
It is exactly the topic.
This study / article is where the data in those graphs came from.
And to repeat, are useless, and ignore decades of well established terminal ballistics knowledge and science. Nothing about the article or graphs has real utility for making an informed choice on what to carry and why. Stopping power is not a thing.
To this day, the seminal doc on the topic is via the FBI (1), which lead to standardization of bullets designed for SD/Duty, and what all modern ammo manufacturers follow and use as their guide to developing SD/duty ammo. Specific to that and other similar articles using same methodology, "THE ALLURE OF SHOOTING INCIDENT ANALYSES" covers that in FBI doc linked below.
On .380: The reason the .380 is not included as recommended for SD/duty to this day, is that they have not been able to produce one to meet those standards of penetration and expansion, the end. It looks like they are getting closer, but none shown to be reliable, hence, for the 9,012,143 time, why FMJ is recommended for .380 and below: you will get excellent penetration but no expansion, and penetration is far more important in ending the threat.
I'm astounded this is still a topic of debate in 2022.
http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf
And to repeat, are useless, and ignore decades of well established terminal ballistics knowledge and science. Nothing about the article or graphs has real utility for making an informed choice on what to carry and why. Stopping power is not a thing.
To this day, the seminal doc on the topic is via the FBI (1), which lead to standardization of bullets designed for SD/Duty, and what all modern ammo manufacturers follow and use as their guide to developing SD/duty ammo. Specific to that and other similar articles using same methodology, "THE ALLURE OF SHOOTING INCIDENT ANALYSES" covers that in FBI doc linked below.
On .380: The reason the .380 is not included as recommended for SD/duty to this day, is that they have not been able to produce one to meet those standards of penetration and expansion, the end. It looks like they are getting closer, but none shown to be reliable, hence, for the 9,012,143 time, why FMJ is recommended for .380 and below: you will get excellent penetration but no expansion, and penetration is far more important in ending the threat.
I'm astounded this is still a topic of debate in 2022.
http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf
So 10mm? That's what the brilliant FBI said was best.
The article / study seems to suggest that service pistol cartridge performance is a rather narrow spectrum. I.e. the "best" and "worst" are fairly close in performance. I'll bet Dr. Fackler would agree with that statement.
I do carry fmj in .380. Because "penetration is far more important in ending the threat."
Yup. Penetration is the "Power" that "Stops" the threat. 😀
I wouldn't recommend .380 as a service cartridge.
Ive seen a decent amount of 380 GSWs over the years. Im definitely a proponent of going FMJ in that cartridge. The hollow points that do expand have shown really bad penetration.
Ive told this story before but i had a victim get shot in the stomach/side with a 380 hollow point. Bullet expanded well but on penetrated maybe 6-8 inches of skin and fat. He basically got shot in the love handle and it couldn't penetrate all the way through that. I dont think adding in bones and muscle is going to help that lack of penetration at all.
From my experience the FMJ rounds had adequate penetration but still lacked the bone breaking and real deep penetration abilities of the duty rounds.
So 10mm? That's what the brilliant FBI said was best.
The issue with the 10mm is not the bullets terminal ballistics performance, as it was an is excellent as everyone knows. It was also designed with what that was known about the topic and the materials and modeling of the time, without much considerations for the size of the gun, recoil etc. Knowledge of bullet design since that time has improved by leaps and bounds, and to repeat, the ammo you carry as does everyone else, all fed orgs, all PDs, etc are based on the FBI protocols that were developed.
The article / study seems to suggest that service pistol cartridge performance is a rather narrow spectrum. I.e. the "best" and "worst" are fairly close in performance. I'll bet Dr. Fackler would agree with that statement.
What Fackler would say, as does his student and terminal ballistics researcher and tester who used to post here would say is, all pistol loads in common duty loads are poor man stoppers, and using those that meet the known recs for best outcomes, as outlined via the FBI and ALL major ammo manufacturers, is best practices. Anything else is just unnecessarily reducing your chances of stopping the threat before has the chance to harm you. The differences between best and worst, that fall within the recs are so narrow, that's why feds, PDs,. etc went back to 9mm. I can't even imagine how many times this has been covered here now. .380, still a bad choice.
I do carry fmj in .380. Because "penetration is far more important in ending the threat."
Yup. Penetration is the "Power" that "Stops" the threat. ��
I wouldn't recommend .380 as a service cartridge.
I wouldn't recommend it for anything considering it's poor performance on terminal ballistics testing and many options of very small 9mm pistols that exist.
DP happening, and not the fun kind.
I wouldn't recommend it for anything considering it's poor performance on terminal ballistics testing and many options of very small 9mm pistols that exist.
Haven't found a 9mm with the combination of size, safety, capacity, and shooting characteristics I like to switch yet.
Meat target starts at ~20 minute mark. He also has a video on 380 ammo selection, if you're going to pack it you should at least carry the best ammo possible.
https://youtu.be/-sSuNkKGvsI?t=1200
You be the judge.
This is a game changer in .380. Great penetration and leaves a 2 inch wound channel.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/380-acp-p-65-grain-xtreme-defender.html
https://youtu.be/-PDQcE-1T40
Well there you go, 380acp is more deadly than 9mm or 44 magnum because this cute little graph says so.Exactly.
I know medics with the Detroit fire department and a few RN's in area ER's that would call the graph ridiculous.
But hey, there isn't any violence in Detroit so what do they know?
Exactly.
I know medics with the Detroit fire department and a few RN's in area ER's that would call the graph ridiculous.
But hey, there isn't any violence in Detroit so what do they know?
Y'all should read the study / article and consider you can learn from statistics even if the data can produce some odd-looking graphs.
The study isnt meant to predict anything. The guy merely sought out some data and reported what he found best he could.
This is a game changer in .380. Great penetration and leaves a 2 inch wound channel.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/380-acp-p-65-grain-xtreme-defender.html
https://youtu.be/-PDQcE-1T40
2 inch permanent wound cavity?
No sir. Doesn't mean it's bad, though.
Well there you go, 380acp is more deadly than 9mm or 44 magnum because this cute little graph says so.
So we must think "whole picture" and I suspect a huge factor in those .380 outcomes is people who are almost arms length away vs. shots from across the parking lot which happen more with 9mm and .45 handguns.
But if we go strictly with things like bullet weight, muzzle energy and other "knowns", .380 really isn't terrible. It's my minimum threshold for what I consider a fighting caliber, I will go .380 if I have to, I'd really rather not go .32 unless there isn't anything else and I'm a lot more comfortable with 9mm.
But if we go strictly with things like bullet weight, muzzle energy and other "knowns", .380 really isn't terrible. It's my minimum threshold for what I consider a fighting caliber, I will go .380 if I have to, I'd really rather not go .32 unless there isn't anything else and I'm a lot more comfortable with 9mm.
Pretty much exactly where I stand as well on the subject.
One shot stops sounds like Sanow and Marshall from back in the day.
Years ago, I read an article published in Soldier of Fortune magazine on the Marshall and Sanow Stopping Power book. The author of the article contacted sources Marshall and Sanow listed in the book and interviewed them. Two of the sources were highly respected Pathologists Dr. Mary Case and Dr. Michael Graham.
Would anyone have a link to the old article?
This is a game changer in .380. Great penetration and leaves a 2 inch wound channel.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/380-acp-p-65-grain-xtreme-defender.html
https://youtu.be/-PDQcE-1T40
As most people here know, I believe the Leighi rounds are a game changer. But I believe velocity in these rounds is king. That is why I am putting a 6" barrel in my glock 34. I am also putting together a Glock 32 with a KKM barrel and comp, plus Glock 35 converted to 357 sig. I believe the Glock 35 will break 2200 fps, while it's 9mm clone will hit 2000fps.
But even with Leighi rouns from Underwood, the 380 does not interest me.
Not bad figures for a 380. I ordered some. When they come in, I’ll chronograph them out of an LCP to see if the figures are close.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220112/4be60b6c032791fbe19564447ee5895a.png
This is a game changer in .380. Great penetration and leaves a 2 inch wound channel.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/380-acp-p-65-grain-xtreme-defender.html
https://youtu.be/-PDQcE-1T40
I don't know about game changer, but they appear to at least make the .380 a more viable SD rnd and the best balance between FMJ and JHP in that caliber. Been interested in them in 9mm for a while. Would like to see some formal 3d party testing first.
Where's the 30 Super? :meeting:
Yoni, you also mentioned an experience with .45 not working well. Given the choice, do you see any real differences between 45 and 380? Or is it truly just about the number of holes you poke in someone?
Having worked in Detroit for 2 years, most of what I remember seeing in the ER was birdshot... then again, they don't bring corpses to the ER.
The 45acp let me down, because it just didn't achieve the results I needed and by the time i figured out I needed to transition to head shots I was out of ammo, It is hard to think while your trying to keep a hatchet out of your skull.
I will not compare .45acp and 380, because I would carry a hi cap 45 if 9mm hi cap wasn't available. 9mm carried more BB's and most people can shoot it faster and more accurately than 45.
I have been places where I was without a firearm and have said I would have loved to have a RG 22 cal revolver over nothing, so you can throw in 380 to that mix.
Seeing the high rate of failure of 380 during that 18 months really soured me
The 45acp let me down, because it just didn't achieve the results I needed and by the time i figured out I needed to transition to head shots I was out of ammo, It is hard to think while your trying to keep a hatchet out of your skull.
I will not compare .45acp and 380, because I would carry a hi cap 45 if 9mm hi cap wasn't available. 9mm carried more BB's and most people can shoot it faster and more accurately than 45.
I have been places where I was without a firearm and have said I would have loved to have a RG 22 cal revolver over nothing, so you can throw in 380 to that mix.
Seeing the high rate of failure of 380 during that 18 months really soured me
Would it also be correct to say that "Seeing the high rate of failure of typical pistol loads during that 18 months really soured me" ?
That is, that all standard pistol loads in typical duty loads are poor man stoppers in general. So, if we know all typical duty loads are already poor man stoppers, why on earth would you make your chances of success even lower for the convenience of a slightly smaller pistol with .380?
If that's all you can CCW, then it is what it is and you make the best of it, but that's not what we are really talking about here for most. Fact is, if you can conceal a .380 you can conceal a slightly larger 9mm, and we all know it.
Maybe the Underwood stuff changes the equation slightly, and perhaps .380 is a good choice for a BUG (but some PDs ban them as such due to how poorly they perform...), but it's just asking for being behind the survival curve when you don't need to be.
My own story is way less dramatic than yours: first pistol I ever got was a S&W .380. It was cheap and I figured good enough. Buddy of mine, a LEO in a gang unit in major city PD, gets into OIS, and puts 5 rnds of .40 into a guy, who simply dropped his own gun and ran off. Guy was later found in an ER and lived.
My buddy said he'd thought he'd missed due to what was a no visual indicators he'd shot the guy at all. No jerking around like the movies, no blood, nadda. That was his first of several and it freaked him out. I also came to learn that's surprisingly common among LEOs who have had such experiences. That was the first and last .380 I ever owned. We have no lack of confirmed stories of people absorbing double digits of 9mm, .40. .45, 45, and continuing to fight and not until someone with a long gun shows up and puts the goblin down, do they stop fighting.
And people wanna carry a .380 with a limited capacity to boot? Good luck wit that...
The 45acp let me down, because it just didn't achieve the results I needed and by the time i figured out I needed to transition to head shots I was out of ammo, It is hard to think while your trying to keep a hatchet out of your skull.
I will not compare .45acp and 380, because I would carry a hi cap 45 if 9mm hi cap wasn't available. 9mm carried more BB's and most people can shoot it faster and more accurately than 45.
I have been places where I was without a firearm and have said I would have loved to have a RG 22 cal revolver over nothing, so you can throw in 380 to that mix.
Seeing the high rate of failure of 380 during that 18 months really soured me
Thanks for answering. I'm not usually one to ask for "war stories," but since you'd brought it up in the past I felt it fair game.
Would it also be correct to say that "Seeing the high rate of failure of typical pistol loads during that 18 months really soured me"
That is, that all standard pistol loads in typical duty loads are poor man stoppers in general. So, if we know all typical duty loads are already poor man stoppers, why on earth would you make your chances of success even lower for the convenience of a slightly smaller pistol with .380?
If that's all you can CCW, then it is what it is and you make the best of it, but that's not what we are really talking about here for most. Fact is, if you can conceal a .380 you can conceal a slightly larger 9mm, and we all know it.
Maybe the Underwood stuff changes the equation slightly, and perhaps .380 is a good choice for a BUG (but some PDs ban them as such due to how poorly they perform...), but it's just asking for being behind the survival curve when you don't need to be.
My own story is way less dramatic than yours: first pistol I ever got was a S&W .380. It was cheap and I figured good enough. Buddy of mine, a LEO in a gang unit in major city PD, gets into OIS, and puts 5 rnds of .40 into a guy, who simply dropped his own gun and ran off. Guy was later found in an ER and lived.
My buddy said he'd thought he'd missed due to what was a no visual indicators he'd shot the guy at all. No jerking around like the movies, no blood, nadda. That was his first of several and it freaked him out. I also came to learn that's surprisingly common among LEOs who have had such experiences. That was the first and last .380 I ever owned. We have no lack of confirmed stories of people absorbing double digits of 9mm, .40. .45, 45, and continuing to fight and not until someone with a long gun shows up and puts the goblin down, do they stop fighting.
And people wanna carry a .380 with a limited capacity to boot? Good luck wit that...
I gotta say that I’m pretty confident if I was shot with only a lowly .22, I’d be on the ground howling and screeching like a pussy almost immediately!
I gotta say that I’m pretty confident if I was shot with only a lowly .22, I’d be on the ground howling and screeching like a pussy almost immediately!
Lol!!
I gotta say that I’m pretty confident if I was shot with only a lowly .22, I’d be on the ground howling and screeching like a pussy almost immediately!
I suspect I'd do the same, but some goblins simply don't and many unaware they have even been shot. As always, I recommend anyone who has not read the seminal doc:
"People largely fall down when shot, and the apparent predisposition to do so exists with equal force among the good guys
as among the bad. The causative factors are most likely psychological in origin. Thousands of books,
movies and television shows have educated the general population that when shot, one is supposed to
fall down." - Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK
http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf
1_click_off
01-12-22, 18:35
I gotta say that I’m pretty confident if I was shot with only a lowly .22, I’d be on the ground howling and screeching like a pussy almost immediately!
I had a high school buddy that pulled his “unloaded” 22 rifle off of his truck seat and the trigger snagged on something and bang. The bullet went into the left side of his belly and went the long way around (thankfully) to get lodged in his back. He told the friends with him to just take him home because he was scared of what his mom would say after being called from the hospital. Luckily by the time they got back into town he decided the hospital was the right call. So in this case of one….. being shot from a 22lr may still make you fear your mom finding out rather than fearing death.
At around 7:50 in this video, it shows the 65 grain defender. In the LCP it clocked at 1249 fps and went about 13 inches in.
https://youtu.be/6F5rPTHcrmg
I ordered myself an HK P30SK V1 LEM in an attempt to dethrone the Beretta Cheetah I primarily carry.
I see I can get a dovetail plate to add an optic and then get a tall front sight if I like the gun enough.
The last gun I thought might replace the Cheetah was the Hellcat.
The Hellcat bit my finger. I massaged the area and that has really helped. The Hellcat is a bit jumpy due to lack of surface to hold onto. This makes it a slower draw from a belt, too. (Just being so small) Too big for a pocket, too small for a belt.
The big shame is the Hellcat is not innaccurate and has been perfectly reliable. Well, except for last shot hold open. Because it's so small I end up pressing on the slide lock lever so it often fails to hold open on last shot.
Having worked in Detroit for 2 years, most of what I remember seeing in the ER was birdshot....
I recently spoke to an acquaintance in europe that said the same thing. I found it interesting. In the out-of-hospital environment stateside, I’ve seen pistol wounds vs other firearms on a nearly exclusive basis, despite my entire quadrant of the US being chock full of long guns.
.380 is great. I see all you "gunfighters" out there offering up your vast experiences on the efficacy of the round. Who knew? Women in particular will find the lesser recoil vs. 9mm in a small handgun quite attractive. I carry a 42 in my bustier.
.380 is great. I see all you "gunfighters" out there offering up your vast experiences on the efficacy of the round. Who knew? Women in particular will find the lesser recoil vs. 9mm in a small handgun quite attractive. I carry a 42 in my bustier.
How many people have you shot with the .380 to date?
On the contrary, perhaps you should be answering the question posed, as you have been the most critical of the diminutive .380 ACP. First hand experience capping perps I am certain is the source for your opinion.
Mine on the other hand, is from teaching women to shoot comfortably. A well placed .380 is far superior than a miss with anything else.
http://shootingthebull.net/blog/an-alternative-look-at-an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power/
On the contrary, perhaps you should be answering the question posed, as you have been the most critical of the diminutive .380 ACP. First hand experience capping perps I am certain is the source for your opinion.
Mine on the other hand, is from teaching women to shoot comfortably. A well placed .380 is far superior than a miss with anything else.
I rest my case. You offered nothing but noise to the signal of this thread.
.380 is great. I see all you "gunfighters" out there offering up your vast experiences on the efficacy of the round.
I think the personal experience offered by most here has been as a first responder or medical provider, not a “gunfighter”. The experience I relayed was from my time as a stateside Paramedic and SWAT/SRT/TEMS Medic. In my time as a “gunfighter” (cringe; please don’t call me that…. I don’t work for BCM), there is no .380 experience to relay. I wonder why that might be?
As I’ve said before, I carry a 42 sometimes. Shot it under nods a couple nights ago, side by side with a J frame, even. Enjoy your 42, but be aware that you are carrying it because it is light, small, soft-recoiling, low-report and convenient, not because subsonic 80 and 90 gr bullets are optimal for incapacitating 2m tall bipeds.
I think the personal experience offered by most here has been as a first responder or medical provider, not a “gunfighter”. The experience I relayed was from my time as a stateside Paramedic and SWAT/SRT/TEMS Medic. In my time as a “gunfighter” (cringe; please don’t call me that…. I don’t work for BCM), there is no .380 experience to relay. I wonder why that might be?
As I’ve said before, I carry a 42 sometimes. Shot it under nods a couple nights ago, side by side with a J frame, even. Enjoy your 42, but be aware that you are carrying it because it is light, small, soft-recoiling, low-report and convenient, not because subsonic 80 and 90 gr bullets are optimal for incapacitating 2m tall bipeds.
We need a like button on this forum.
I too am giving my experience with 380 as a street cop in a major metro city over the last nearly 15 years. My experience with the 380 has been poor. Expanded hollow points offer very poor penetration and FMJ or non expanded hollow points will offer decent penetration as long as you dont hit large bones or have to shoot through a barrier first.
Recently had a road rage shooting with a 380. FMJ bullet went through the side window of the car and hit the victim in the head. Bullet lodged in the skull. Paramedics initially thought it was just a cut on his head from the car crash afterwards.
A buddy who became a DV detective was working a shooting where a guy tried to shoot his girlfriend as she was pulling out of the driveway. 380 FMJ rounds shot throught he back windshield failed to penetrate the head rests of the front and rear seats.
My personal deep concealment and pocket carry gun is a J frame 38 Special. It has similar or slightly less muzzle velocity of a 380 but does so with a significantly heavier bullet. In my experience with snubby 38 shootings is that expansion of hollow points doesnt happen or is limited much of the time. However you will still get good penetration and the ability to break or go through large bones. It behaves very similar to the other duty rounds.
I carry either a Sig P365X, a Glock 43X or a Glock 26 every day in Florida.
With so many small 9mm handguns available, I don’t know why anyone would carry a 380acp handgun. But to each his own….
http://shootingthebull.net/blog/an-alternative-look-at-an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power/
Pretty good op/ed there.
I don't get the heat over this. ALL handguns are a compromise. .380 is weak compared to common "duty loads", but pistol size, recoil, comfort and familiarity, and the willingness and/ability to practice meaningfully with the firearm can make it an attractive option for some.
My wife carries a .380 (Sig 238). I would love to put a 9mm on her, but she is not comfortable with the 9mms of similar size. It's a compromise that puts a gun on her that she is comfortable with and can shoot effectively. If .380 is too much of a compromise for you, don't carry one. But it is a choice that some are comfortable making.
As long as one makes an educated decision, I got no problem with .380. It beats hell out of a rape whistle and "tiger keys".
I was shot in the face and shoulder on a traffic stop exactly 3 years and 1 day ago.. I'm going on my 8th surgery to repair the facial damage. After I get my bottom teeth in March I'm returning to full duty and waiting for the upper teeth in November. That said, It's all about placement, surgeon said it was a miracle that I didn't die. I honestly never thought I was going to die, but sitting there spitting out bone and teeth is a shitty situation...
gunnerblue
01-23-22, 12:32
We need a like button on this forum.
I too am giving my experience with 380 as a street cop in a major metro city over the last nearly 15 years. My experience with the 380 has been poor. Expanded hollow points offer very poor penetration and FMJ or non expanded hollow points will offer decent penetration as long as you dont hit large bones or have to shoot through a barrier first.
Recently had a road rage shooting with a 380. FMJ bullet went through the side window of the car and hit the victim in the head. Bullet lodged in the skull. Paramedics initially thought it was just a cut on his head from the car crash afterwards.
A buddy who became a DV detective was working a shooting where a guy tried to shoot his girlfriend as she was pulling out of the driveway. 380 FMJ rounds shot throught he back windshield failed to penetrate the head rests of the front and rear seats.
My personal deep concealment and pocket carry gun is a J frame 38 Special. It has similar or slightly less muzzle velocity of a 380 but does so with a significantly heavier bullet. In my experience with snubby 38 shootings is that expansion of hollow points doesnt happen or is limited much of the time. However you will still get good penetration and the ability to break or go through large bones. It behaves very similar to the other duty rounds.
Does this include the ammo developed specifically for snubbies such as the 135 gr. short-barrel Gold Dot?
Pretty good op/ed there.
I don't get the heat over this. ALL handguns are a compromise. .380 is weak compared to common "duty loads", but pistol size, recoil, comfort and familiarity, and the willingness and/ability to practice meaningfully with the firearm can make it an attractive option for some.
My wife carries a .380 (Sig 238). I would love to put a 9mm on her, but she is not comfortable with the 9mms of similar size. It's a compromise that puts a gun on her that she is comfortable with and can shoot effectively. If .380 is too much of a compromise for you, don't carry one. But it is a choice that some are comfortable making.
As long as one makes an educated decision, I got no problem with .380. It beats hell out of a rape whistle and "tiger keys".
Agreed, but most don't make an educated decision on .380, and ignore the advice of people who literally do the terminal ballistics testing for major fed orgs, PDs, and advising against .380, the long line of LEOs who see its poor performance in the real world, the various med pros who say same, etc, in favor of bad intel on the topic via some YT vid or bad articles etc. No one disagrees the .380 is better than throwing rocks and using harsh language, but that's about it. Personally, found .380 very snappy to shoot with tiny sub compact pistols, and if pistol large enough to lesson recoil, the size of various quality 9mm pistols that offer minimal/similar recoil.
I was shot in the face and shoulder on a traffic stop exactly 3 years and 1 day ago.. I'm going on my 8th surgery to repair the facial damage. After I get my bottom teeth in March I'm returning to full duty and waiting for the upper teeth in November. That said, It's all about placement, surgeon said it was a miracle that I didn't die. I honestly never thought I was going to die, but sitting there spitting out bone and teeth is a shitty situation...
That's terrible! Unless we have another member with similar experience, you have mentioned that in other threads I recall. Was the caliber identified? It's amazing how there's accounts of various duty loads in 9, .40, and .45, deflecting off human skulls depending on the angle. Obviously you put a .22, even a pellet gun has done it, through someones eye socket, and they're likely done for.
I rest my case. You offered nothing but noise to the signal of this thread.
Case? You had a case? I think the statement "a well placed .380 is far superior to a miss with anything else" makes any "case" you had moot. Having taught hundreds of woman shooters, I found that a lower recoil sidearm allowed them to perform at a higher level versus higher recoils weapons. This holds true particularly in the case of small/subcompact pistols.
You remind me of the kid in the scene in Pulp Fiction when he comes out of the bathroom with his Taurus .357 and empties his weapon on Jules and Vincent, yet missed with every round. A miss is a miss. Perhaps he would have hit something with a .380!
I think the personal experience offered by most here has been as a first responder or medical provider, not a “gunfighter”. The experience I relayed was from my time as a stateside Paramedic and SWAT/SRT/TEMS Medic. In my time as a “gunfighter” (cringe; please don’t call me that…. I don’t work for BCM), there is no .380 experience to relay. I wonder why that might be?
As I’ve said before, I carry a 42 sometimes. Shot it under nods a couple nights ago, side by side with a J frame, even. Enjoy your 42, but be aware that you are carrying it because it is light, small, soft-recoiling, low-report and convenient, not because subsonic 80 and 90 gr bullets are optimal for incapacitating 2m tall bipeds.
You can debate the temperature outside, but it ain't gonna change it. I now exactly why I carry it, it is difficult to hide weapons when wearing board shorts and t-shirts and 200 degrees outside. FYI, the gunfighter comment was tongue in cheek, as that how is some participants come across.
Everyone KNOWS .380 is a lesser round than .45, 9mm, .357, etc., etc. We KNOW it is not the ideal self defense cartridge. But, the blanket dismissal as a useless cartridge by some is asinine. As stated above, twice now, I have found women love the lesser recoil and handiness of the pistols that shoot it. I would rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
Does this include the ammo developed specifically for snubbies such as the 135 gr. short-barrel Gold Dot?
That's my issued 38 round but I cant recall ever seeing it in a shooting. In all 38 Special really isnt that common to see dudes shot with. Ive probably seen more suicides and accidental shootings with it than offensive shots.
The only snubby 38 shot I remember having actual decent expansion was one of those old school LSWCHP. Couldnt tell you which loading or which weight. Though I think they pretty much all are 158 grain right? That was a suicide where a lady shot herself center chest. The expanded bullet was half way out the skin on her back and the ER doctors basically just popped it out.
Had another suicide where a guy shot himself through the side of the head. He was using some sort of newer model hollow point. Bullet went all the way through the head, through two interior walls and smashed a bathroom tile. It expanded a little but probably under a half inch total. It looked like a newer design with the pre cut pedals but I left the scene before detectives showed up, so I didnt get a real good look at it or see what other ammo was in the gun.
robbins290
01-26-22, 07:13
If one person where to run with 380, which would be the best candidate? My FIL will be running a Shield EZ in 380 in a few weeks. I am going to get him some defense ammo. I have no idea which ones to get.
If one person where to run with 380, which would be the best candidate? My FIL will be running a Shield EZ in 380 in a few weeks. I am going to get him some defense ammo. I have no idea which ones to get.
Either the Lehigh Defence or the Underwood 380 Extreme Penetrator would be best.
If one person where to run with 380, which would be the best candidate? My FIL will be running a Shield EZ in 380 in a few weeks. I am going to get him some defense ammo. I have no idea which ones to get.
XTP might be “best”. In various internet-based tests, it tends to expand slightly, but still penetrate adequately. It tends to shoot straight, also. Precision One XTP did well in what appeared to be a well-done youtube 10% gel test. Second choice would be a Lehigh copper solid, third choice would be any FMJ.
I think I’ve only shot my Smith EZ with FMJ, so you’ll have to check reliability with other rounds.
robbins290
01-26-22, 09:11
XTP might be “best”. In various internet-based tests, it tends to expand slightly, but still penetrate adequately. It tends to shoot straight, also. Precision One XTP did well in what appeared to be a well-done youtube 10% gel test. Second choice would be a Lehigh copper solid, third choice would be any FMJ.
I think I’ve only shot my Smith EZ with FMJ, so you’ll have to check reliability with other rounds.
I plan on testing it with 200 FMJ and 2 boxes of carry ammo for him to check reliability.
Either the Lehigh Defence or the Underwood 380 Extreme Penetrator would be best.
I agree. Although the XTP would be a good round as well.
My wifes' 380 EZ is loaded with the Lehigh Defense 90g Extreme Penetrator but I also have some mags loaded with the XTPs'. Both cycle without issue & I think you'd be well served with either one, or both.
robbins290
01-26-22, 12:19
Thanks for the update!
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-26-22, 13:31
Interesting thread for sure :confused:
I have zero experience with 380. Never fired one, and have only handled them in their Bryco, Jennings, Raven, Hi Point iterations. I have thought long and hard about buying a SW EZ for my wife, who while shoots very accurately, struggles greatly with follow up shots at any sort of speed with 9mm and larger.
For most people, I think 9mm and 38 is absolutely the answer. But guns are a funny thing, what works for one doesn't always work for others, despite knowing that the ballistics and penetration of 380 is inferior to 9mm. I'd rather my wife have a gun that she can use and carry, even if subpar, than a gun she can't shoot or carry simply because the ballistics were better.
robbins290
01-26-22, 13:33
Interesting thread for sure :confused:
I have zero experience with 380. Never fired one, and have only handled them in their Bryco, Jennings, Raven, Hi Point iterations. I have thought long and hard about buying a SW EZ for my wife, who while shoots very accurately, struggles greatly with follow up shots at any sort of speed with 9mm and larger.
For most people, I think 9mm and 38 is absolutely the answer. But guns are a funny thing, what works for one doesn't always work for others, despite knowing that the ballistics and penetration of 380 is inferior to 9mm. I'd rather my wife have a gun that she can use and carry, even if subpar, than a gun she can't shoot or carry simply because the ballistics were better.
Exactly why he is going with the shield EZ. The ppq 45 is too much for him.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-26-22, 13:39
Exactly why he is going with the shield EZ. The ppq 45 is too much for him.
I could see why it would be beneficial for him in that instance for sure.
As far as my wife is concerned, if she were to take training seriously and attend multiple courses, train at the range, dryfire, etc, then 9mm would be no issue. But the fact of the matter is that, like the majority of shooters, she wont. So, maybe 380 is the compromise.
When it comes to .380 jhp's, when the best ones only expand to .40-.45 and penetrate only about 12 inches of proper ordinance gel at best it makes me choose fmj.
I'm concerned about reliable feeding with the solid copper rounds and flat nosed bullets like Buffalo Bore.
Even though I've only had a Beretta Cheetah choke about 3 times. Once firing .32 acp and I may have contacted the slide with my thumb. The other 2 times was while firing Underwoods very hot .380 XTP. Failures to feed that may have been related to the hot ammo in the blow-back pistol.
How hot? I'll have to check my notes for the actual numbers but I ran a few across the chrono at about 1150 fps! Recoil from the blow-back, alloy-framed pistol felt like 9mm +p.
And like other hot Underwood ammo I've fired, no bulged cases or other signs of being over pressure.
So, I carry a Buffalo Bore LFN in the chamber and the rest Fiocchi fmj. Both loads chrono about 975 fps.
Wife loves the Cheetahs in .32 and that's really the only auto pistol she enjoys firing.
She carries an LCR .327 with .32 magnum ammo. Basically 6 shots of .380-level performance. She is very good with it. With .32 S&W Long and .32 mag ammo she'll fire 120-150 rds a session. She finds it fun to shoot and doesn't even notice how attractive she is with her fingers covered in lead.
Although I'm going to recommend she start wearing nitrile gloves. Because lead.
Does this include the ammo developed specifically for snubbies such as the 135 gr. short-barrel Gold Dot?
I had an opportunity to test some ammunition with a representative from a major manufacturer. We fired 2 rounds of 135g GDHP into calibrated ballistic gelatin with my Model 60 S&W and both expanded beautifully. Both projectiles traveled over 12" with one traveling over 14" before stopping in the gelatin.
We shot 2 rounds of Winchester 158g + P LHP and neither expanded. Both penetrated over 15". This is the old FBI load and in all fairness to Winchester, the cartridge was not designed for a 1-7/8" barrel.
I wish I could find more Glaser Safety Slugs. They wreak havoc on ballistic gelatin.
I currently carry the 135g +P GDHP in a BG38.
I wish I could find more Glaser Safety Slugs. They wreak havoc on ballistic gelatin.
They did a great job on people also.
I retired this week, the one 9mm Glaser that had been in the barrel of my Glock 26 for way too long.
Even though I've only had a Beretta Cheetah choke about 3 times. Once firing .32 acp and I may have contacted the slide with my thumb. The other 2 times was while firing Underwoods very hot .380 XTP. Failures to feed that may have been related to the hot ammo in the blow-back pistol.
How hot? I'll have to check my notes for the actual numbers but I ran a few across the chrono at about 1150 fps! Recoil from the blow-back, alloy-framed pistol felt like 9mm +p.
1150 is way hot. Maybe too hot. Certainly +p territory, and of course .380 doesn’t carry a +p rating. Also, your Cheetah has a very light slide for a blowback gun. As if it were designed for .32 (which Cheetah came first, .32 or .380?). I had my slide dovetailed and Triji HDs installed, and it launched the orange paint or insert ring or whatever in like a case of regular ball ammo. Gone. Knowing that slide velocity is that high, I’d stick to standard pressure ammo and leave the Underwood and such for G42s.
1150 is way hot. Maybe too hot. Certainly +p territory, and of course .380 doesn’t carry a +p rating. Also, your Cheetah has a very light slide for a blowback gun. As if it were designed for .32 (which Cheetah came first, .32 or .380?). I had my slide dovetailed and Triji HDs installed, and it launched the orange paint or insert ring or whatever in like a case of regular ball ammo. Gone. Knowing that slide velocity is that high, I’d stick to standard pressure ammo and leave the Underwood and such for G42s.
I think the Cheetah came out in 7.65 mm (.32) and 9mm Corto (.380) at the same time.
They use the same slide, recoil spring, frame, extractor, ejector, etc. Only the mag, barrel, and markings are different, basically. .380 seems to do more pounding and enough can cause trouble with disassembly. Its important to keep fresh springs in a blowback gun especially.
I haven't fired any more of the hot Underwood. In fact I haven't been firing the Cheetahs since I tested and started carrying the HK P30SK. Loaded with Underwood 68gr Ext. Defense it's under 28 oz loaded with 14 rds of it.
The P30SK has apparently dethroned my Cheetahs after about 9 years carrying them.
I'll see what happens when summer really hits, though.
My P30SK needs a rackable rear sight or optic.
Agreed, but most don't make an educated decision on .380, and ignore the advice of people who literally do the terminal ballistics testing for major fed orgs, PDs, and advising against .380, the long line of LEOs who see its poor performance in the real world, the various med pros who say same, etc, in favor of bad intel on the topic via some YT vid or bad articles etc. No one disagrees the .380 is better than throwing rocks and using harsh language, but that's about it. Personally, found .380 very snappy to shoot with tiny sub compact pistols, and if pistol large enough to lesson recoil, the size of various quality 9mm pistols that offer minimal/similar recoil.
That's terrible! Unless we have another member with similar experience, you have mentioned that in other threads I recall. Was the caliber identified? It's amazing how there's accounts of various duty loads in 9, .40, and .45, deflecting off human skulls depending on the angle. Obviously you put a .22, even a pellet gun has done it, through someones eye socket, and they're likely done for.
The calibre was .380 (hollow point) unsure of brand or other specifics. I'd have to get a copy of the State Police report to give details
Just noticed this thread. The study is based on bad methodology and suspect data. Bad methodology or design leads to an inaccurate and invalid study and conclusion.
The person who wrote it, Gregg Ellifritz is an amazing resource on defensive issues. He is a great teacher with a strong background in Law enforcement and training, and has written some of the best things that I have read on a wide variety of topics. His background, skill, and teaching ability cannot be questioned. I can appreciate the amount of time and effort he put into this. However, in the end I am afraid that I don't agree with his conclusion.
By his own description, the author of the study tried to record every shooting he could find. By definition this includes situations where an armed person shot an unarmed person, or shot someone who was not interested in fighting him in the first place, or not very serious about posing a threat. All of those fall into the heading of "every shooting he could find."
The author of the report "scoured the newspapers, magazines, and Internet for any reliable accounts of what happened to the human body when it was shot."
This is a huge problem because you often don't get accurate information about the gun or caliber used, number of shots fired or hit, where they hit, circumstances of the shooting, etc. In most cases you don't have accurate information to conclude when the person being shot stops. So you absolutely cannot include these accounts in any statistical study.
Even if the information was accurate, in most cases all you know is how many rounds were fired--not if the person shot was stopped.
Further, even if the data were accurate, the premise of this study is flawed in the way it compares dissimilar shootings.
Shooting someone who isn't a serious attacker, who may not be armed, and is afraid of you isn't the same as shooting an of objective driven violent criminal attacker.
If you look at this author's logic, if two drunks at a bar get into a pushing match and one pulls out a .25 auto and shoots the other once and the man who was shot backs off, it counts as a one shot stop.
But if a police officer draws his 9mm loaded with Federal HST JHPs and as fires multiple quick shots at an attacker in the manner in which he was likely trained--it counts as a one-shot failure, or a situation where multiple shots were required to stop someone.
I submit, would you rather rely on a .25 auto for self defense or the 9mm loaded with Federal HSTs?
I think it is admirable what the person who wrote this study tried to do, but I am afraid the methodology wasn't quite there. I would not try to extrapolate any of his results on what would work for me if confronted by a violent criminal.
Just noticed this thread. The study is based on bad methodology and suspect data. Bad methodology or design leads to an inaccurate and invalid study and conclusion.
The person who wrote it, Gregg Ellifritz is an amazing resource on defensive issues. He is a great teacher with a strong background in Law enforcement and training, and has written some of the best things that I have read on a wide variety of topics. His background, skill, and teaching ability cannot be questioned. I can appreciate the amount of time and effort he put into this. However, in the end I am afraid that I don't agree with his conclusion.
By his own description, the author of the study tried to record every shooting he could find. By definition this includes situations where an armed person shot an unarmed person, or shot someone who was not interested in fighting him in the first place, or not very serious about posing a threat. All of those fall into the heading of "every shooting he could find."
The author of the report "scoured the newspapers, magazines, and Internet for any reliable accounts of what happened to the human body when it was shot."
This is a huge problem because you often don't get accurate information about the gun or caliber used, number of shots fired or hit, where they hit, circumstances of the shooting, etc. In most cases you don't have accurate information to conclude when the person being shot stops. So you absolutely cannot include these accounts in any statistical study.
Even if the information was accurate, in most cases all you know is how many rounds were fired--not if the person shot was stopped.
Further, even if the data were accurate, the premise of this study is flawed in the way it compares dissimilar shootings.
Shooting someone who isn't a serious attacker, who may not be armed, and is afraid of you isn't the same as shooting an of objective driven violent criminal attacker.
If you look at this author's logic, if two drunks at a bar get into a pushing match and one pulls out a .25 auto and shoots the other once and the man who was shot backs off, it counts as a one shot stop.
But if a police officer draws his 9mm loaded with Federal HST JHPs and as fires multiple quick shots at an attacker in the manner in which he was likely trained--it counts as a one-shot failure, or a situation where multiple shots were required to stop someone.
I submit, would you rather rely on a .25 auto for self defense or the 9mm loaded with Federal HSTs?
I think it is admirable what the person who wrote this study tried to do, but I am afraid the methodology wasn't quite there. I would not try to extrapolate any of his results on what would work for me if confronted by a violent criminal.
Like car crashes, they often arent the same, but there tend to be patterns.
I think the patterns shown are useful regarding this study.
I agree with his statements that with the less-motivated attacker any gun will probably work.
With a determined one something that penetrates well and breaks bones and causes bleeding that with time will end the attack is desirable. In this circumstance mag capacity becomes more of a factor, too.
It would be interesting to see a similar study but regarding stopping dog attacks.
http://shootingthebull.net/blog/an-alternative-look-at-an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power/
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