View Full Version : Undersea Cable Cut in Norway
I am so happy Brandon has restored world respect to the United States again. (sarc) Russia has a deep sea submersible piggy backed to a submarine just for mapping or fooling with undersea cables. Now might not be a good time to visit Ukraine or Taiwan,
Norwegian Undersea Surveillance Network Had Its Cables Mysteriously Cut
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43094/norwegian-undersea-surveillance-network-had-its-cables-mysteriously-cut
Russian submarines cutting underwater cables is 'act of war', UK defence chief warns
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/russian-subs-cutting-underwater-cables-25889266
Now we also have a GPS outage over the Western US, not that the CCP has a wat to knock out our satellites they might want to test or anything. Just sayin'.
We still engage in cold war tactics in spite of the end of the cold war.
Maybe Poland should think about annexing Kaliningrad. Crimea gives some valid precedence that such a move is perfectly legitimate, I mean Obama and Joe were totally cool with it.
ETA: It would make a real nice NATO joint naval center. :)
BoringGuy45
01-23-22, 12:32
With the way Russia has been acting lately, either Putin is just flexing orthey have really good intel telling them that Biden absolutely will not respond to a military attack on Ukraine. This is history repeating itself: It's looking like Germany and Czechoslovakia in 1938.
With the way Russia has been acting lately, either Putin is just flexing orthey have really good intel telling them that Biden absolutely will not respond to a military attack on Ukraine. This is history repeating itself: It's looking like Germany and Czechoslovakia in 1938.
Except that Shitzhizpantz doesn't have a quarter the spine and testicular fortitude of Neville Chamberlain. :p
I am so happy Brandon has restored world respect to the United States again. (sarc) Russia has a deep sea submersible piggy backed to a submarine just for mapping or fooling with undersea cables. Now might not be a good time to visit Ukraine or Taiwan,
Norwegian Undersea Surveillance Network Had Its Cables Mysteriously Cut
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43094/norwegian-undersea-surveillance-network-had-its-cables-mysteriously-cut
Russian submarines cutting underwater cables is 'act of war', UK defence chief warns
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/russian-subs-cutting-underwater-cables-25889266
Now we also have a GPS outage over the Western US, not that the CCP has a wat to knock out our satellites they might want to test or anything. Just sayin'.
Funny when you really think about it. A sub (that they can't identify - 'the cause of the damage') came along and destroyed the stuff they have installed to collect data about passing submarines.
Undersea sensors off the coast of northern Norway that are able to collect data about passing submarines, among other things, have been knocked out, the country’s state-operated Institute of Marine Research, or IMR, has revealed. The cause of the damage is unknown,
Thinking they need to do a LOT better job on their 'Undersea Surveillance Network' if any of what they said is really true.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-23-22, 14:10
Maybe Poland should think about annexing Kaliningrad. Crimea gives some valid precedence that such a move is perfectly legitimate, I mean Obama and Joe were totally cool with it.
ETA: It would make a real nice NATO joint naval center. :)
F to that YES! Poland shouldn’t wait for the next Russian invasion. Go full Hussar, feathers and all on the tanks.
Time to put a no-fly zone over Ukraine and see if F22s are as Bad-ass Mo-fo as everyone claims…
BoringGuy45
01-23-22, 15:48
Except that Shitzhizpantz doesn't have a quarter the spine and testicular fortitude of Neville Chamberlain. :p
Chamberlain at least finally admitted that he had royally f'ed up when Germany invaded Poland and supported the UK's declaration of war. I don't know if Biden would even be willing to go to war with Russia if he invaded a NATO country.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-23-22, 15:52
Chamberlain at least finally admitted that he had royally f'ed up when Germany invaded Poland and supported the UK's declaration of war. I don't know if Biden would even be willing to go to war with Russia if he invaded a NATO country.
The Germans are the problem. Someone should draw a political cartoon of the German PM on his knees sucking gas from Putin’s junk…
With all the Russian deployments around Ukraine I believe they are serious.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uLTl_WTtgg
With all the Russian deployments around Ukraine I believe they are serious.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uLTl_WTtgg
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-23-22, 16:44
With all the Russian deployments around Ukraine I believe they are serious.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uLTl_WTtgg
And now we know why they wanted the French build Amphib carrier that we gave to the Egyptians….
What would it take for Turkey to close the straits from the Med to Black Sea? What if there was a unfortunate accident that blocked it?
I honestly believe Poopy Pants would be OK with a Russian invasion of the Southeastern US.
"C'mon man, as long as they don't cross the Mason-Dixon line..."
On topic though, the Norwegian sensor network is a real problem for D-E subs of the Baltic fleet. They like to pretend that the Baltic Sea is theirs, exclusively. They also like to remind Norway, Sweden, and Finland that they are still a threat.
They piss and moan about "security" and "space" while having nuclear capable short range ballistic missiles in KO.
And now we know why they wanted the French build Amphib carrier that we gave to the Egyptians….
What would it take for Turkey to close the straits from the Med to Black Sea? What if there was a unfortunate accident that blocked it?
Turkey can't block the straits, that would violate international maritime law. And likely bring them into a war.
WillieThom
01-23-22, 18:30
With all the Russian deployments around Ukraine I believe they are serious.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uLTl_WTtgg
I was just coming in to post this guy’s channel. Good stuff.
Turkey can't block the straits, but you know what they CAN do? Blockades to keep their cities safe. If Russia's Navy stays in the Black Sea, they are contained.
Turkey can't block the straits, but you know what they CAN do? Blockades to keep their cities safe. If Russia's Navy stays in the Black Sea, they are contained.
If we are depending upon Turkey to protect anything or anyone, we are already done. Putin would have seen this move and already made arrangements with Turkey.
Trumps number one agenda when elected was to get things sorted out with Russia, unfortunately as soon as he got elected the Dems screamed that Russia manipulated the election and Trump didn't anticipate that move or have a plan to deal with it so all "Russian negotiation" was stillborn.
Putin is slowly rebuilding his empire and honestly we probably don't want Brandon playing master class chess with Putin. This is why he's making his move. Look for shit to jump off during the Beijing Olympics, that is typically when Russia does land grabs.
Ironically when Russia moved on Georgia, the 2008 Olympics were ALSO in Beijing.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2008/08/russia-invades-georgia-how-did-it-come-to-this.html
Wonder if I should buy an AK.....
If we are depending upon Turkey to protect anything or anyone, we are already done. Putin would have seen this move and already made arrangements with Turkey.
Trumps number one agenda when elected was to get things sorted out with Russia, unfortunately as soon as he got elected the Dems screamed that Russia manipulated the election and Trump didn't anticipate that move or have a plan to deal with it so all "Russian negotiation" was stillborn.
Putin is slowly rebuilding his empire and honestly we probably don't want Brandon playing master class chess with Putin. This is why he's making his move. Look for shit to jump off during the Beijing Olympics, that is typically when Russia does land grabs.
Ironically when Russia moved on Georgia, the 2008 Olympics were ALSO in Beijing.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2008/08/russia-invades-georgia-how-did-it-come-to-this.html
Then do you also distrust our subs sitting outside the straits and inside the Black Sea?
Keeping their navy as occupied as possible in the Black Sea keeps everyone safer. Hard to think our Navy, UK Navy, anyone's navy hasn't thought about that.
Curious, what empire is Putin rebuilding of his? He went in post-Yeltin at ostensibly their weakest time, and not a lot has changed in the way of territory (though their largesse is considerably bigger).
Also, USN had huge FONOPS in the south sea, and China flew largest formation ever incursion near Taiwan today. Don't know if they are working in cahoots, but they each know to others intentions and are at least tassel a working off of one another.
Then do you also distrust our subs sitting outside the straits and inside the Black Sea?
Keeping their navy as occupied as possible in the Black Sea keeps everyone safer. Hard to think our Navy, UK Navy, anyone's navy hasn't thought about that.
Curious, what empire is Putin rebuilding of his? He went in post-Yeltin at ostensibly their weakest time, and not a lot has changed in the way of territory (though their largesse is considerably bigger).
Also, USN had huge FONOPS in the south sea, and China flew largest formation ever incursion near Taiwan today. Don't know if they are working in cahoots, but they each know to others intentions and are at least tassel a working off of one another.
I trust our Navy, not sure I trust our administration to make the correct decisions regarding their deployment.
As for Putin, he has engaged in a few key land grabs. Crimea, Georgia and the like. I don't see him reacquiring all of Eastern Europe that was once part of the Soviet Union, but he isn't above simply taking things when he believes nobody can or will oppose him. Some things like the Crimean Peninsula were probably inevitable given it's strategic importance to the Russian Federation. But he's already made one significant play for the rest of Ukraine and I don't see him being deterred by anyone from trying again.
He's definitely gonna try again. You don't bivvie 100,000 troops along a border for kicks. I expect he was looking to intimidate some territory gain AND orchestrate a power grab by Russian loyalists. He's not above outright invasion though. Shitzhizpants won't do squat, Europe is not really able to do much. The only real economic leverage Europe has is to quit buying Russian energy and materials, which in reality hurts Europe as badly or worse than it hurts Russia. Putin has never shown reluctance to wear the black hat, don't expect him to change now.
The next 6-8 weeks are the window of opportunity. Eastern Ukraine is a lot like Minnesota. If he's gonna move it's gonna be soon.
Well, at least we'll send troops:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2022/01/23/us/politics/biden-troops-nato-ukraine.amp.html
Well, at least we'll send troops:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2022/01/23/us/politics/biden-troops-nato-ukraine.amp.html
And we are currently at Defcon 3, I think last time we were at 3 was when pork chop kid in North Korea flew a missile over Japan.
Well, at least we'll send troops:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2022/01/23/us/politics/biden-troops-nato-ukraine.amp.html
Christ, another Balkan war, that's what we need.
I smell "containment" in that troop deployment idea. As in "keep the takeover confined to Ukraine"
I smell "containment" in that troop deployment idea. As in "keep the takeover confined to Ukraine"
These are dangerous games to play. Remember how Obama's line in the sand worked out in Syria. F'ing around trying to play global police he managed to get us back into a frosty Cold War with Russia...over f'ing Syria.
arbninftry
01-23-22, 23:37
Turkey can't block the straits, but you know what they CAN do? Blockades to keep their cities safe. If Russia's Navy stays in the Black Sea, they are contained.
This is why Syria has always been important the Russians. They need a port in the Mediterranean just for that reason. Thus, the Ruskies in Syria.
To bring the thread full circle, the Navy may deploy ships to the Baltic. I'm gonna speculate that means cruise missile capability. The loss of the Norwegian sensor network only covered a small area of the transit line into the Baltic, but it did help detect subs.
That capability loss means more risk for NATO warships.
This is why Syria has always been important the Russians. They need a port in the Mediterranean just for that reason. Thus, the Ruskies in Syria.
Syria is a LONG way from the Black Sea...but a great place for a port in a region that is almost always destabilized.
This is why Syria has always been important the Russians. They need a port in the Mediterranean just for that reason. Thus, the Ruskies in Syria.
To bring the thread full circle, the Navy may deploy ships to the Baltic. I'm gonna speculate that means cruise missile capability. The loss of the Norwegian sensor network only covered a small area of the transit line into the Baltic, but it did help detect subs.
That capability loss means more risk for NATO warships.
We have ships there now. We also have SOF (this is open source, not violating OPSEC). I imagine more of both regardless of the US being drawn into something more significant.
Let's also not forget that Putin pretty much owns Lukashenko who shares a very long border north of Ukraine. Lukashenko also has long standing enmity towards Lithuania, and has his hand on the valves of European gas supplies.
Could get spicy in the next couple weeks.
Does anyone really believe the US should go to war against Russia over the phucking Ukraine ??? Seriously ??? Just to keep the cash cow that's been funneling $$ to Hunter and his incoherent and incontinent father? The Ukraine is about as vital as Somalia. Let the Ukrainians fight the Russians. ALM ! American Lives Matter.
I just find it funny that the cable for the sub detection was cut by a sub ? why did they not detect it and stop it ?
WickedWillis
01-24-22, 13:58
Does anyone really believe the US should go to war against Russia over the phucking Ukraine ??? Seriously ??? Just to keep the cash cow that's been funneling $$ to Hunter and his incoherent and incontinent father? The Ukraine is about as vital as Somalia. Let the Ukrainians fight the Russians. ALM ! American Lives Matter.
I think that depends on how much of a warmonger Biden is.
I don't think anyone believes putting American troops up head to head with the Russians is the right idea. It's a real shitty time to be Ukrainian. Obama let the seizure of Crimea slide, Europe is too beholden to Russian gas, the current political noise is all about minimizing the land grab that is about to happen.
What we should be doing is flying C-5s full of munitions in and letting Putin know that we intend to arm any resistance element we can find.
Inkslinger
01-24-22, 14:16
I think that depends on how much of a warmonger Biden is.
He might be looking for something that makes him look like he’s not a weak, dottering old fool. If that’s his plan, we’re just going to end up with a weak, dottering old fool commanding our military in a war.
May want to get up to speed on the NATO Very High Readiness Joint Task Force (Land) as the Pentagon is briefing it's coming into play.
This article is older but does a pretty good job describing the intent of the VJTF, it's capabilities:
https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/nato%E2%80%99s-very-high-readiness-joint-task-force-land-2017-an-analysis
They won't be alone, I'm sure the 173rd Airborne will likely deploy as Eastern Europe is one of its key focus areas and they have expensive time training and operating with the key countries. Of course the 82nd probably will as well.
Biden is already committed to add 5,000 troops and indicated that it would grow to 50,000 as needed if Putin does not back down.
The Pentagon is on right now talking about the VJTF and other actions.
Yes Germany is the wild card. The US (and NATO) has a very strong commitment with the Eastern European NATO countries so I expect we will act to support them.
I'm not happy about this as my IN CPT son spent three years in Italy and Eastern Europe in the 173rd as an LT. And has also spent almost a year in the same area with a heavy unit. We had hoped he would be stateside for a while.
Going to be interesting, this bears monitoring
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how many think a lot of this is over the hunter and Ukraine issues ?
how many think a lot of this is over the hunter and Ukraine issues ?This is way bigger than any of that. So I certainly agree the administration could be making flawed decisions because of entanglements. I'm thinking more China than anything.
how many think a lot of this is over the hunter and Ukraine issues ?
Everyone should. XiDen has been compromised since day 1 and they know it.
KT Mcfarland (ex Nat security advisor) indicating any NATO response is just posturing as Germany is too dependent on Russia fuel and without Germany NATO will not act.
Outlined and interesting anecdote with Trump, Angela Merkel, and the previous Ukraine scenario. Where Merkel wanted to know what the US was going to do about Ukraine and he said "what are you going to do about it... it's in your neighborhood!"
Of course, the answer was nothing.
Her fairly well informed view: Putting troops in adjacent countries increases tensions but will not stop an invasion. We have no meaningful sanctions left as we approved Nord pipeline 2. So Biden will likely annex Ukraine via hybrid and or active warfare.
DOD put 8,500 on alert, the 82nd is preparing to leave within 72 hours, a Marine Corps MAGTF is in the region as are our boats and SOF. I imagine a CTF is steaming that way.
Putin has way to much invested in this to walk away empty handed. He's got the real costs, the internal political capitol, and the international ill will that he has already generated. He's gonna have to show a return.
I'm guessing he is at the very least gonna attempt to gain a land route to Crimea. He may try for as much of the Black Sea coastline as he can get. Depends on how much resistance he gets, militarily and politically.
You know damn well he has his eyes on the Suwalke cooridor longterm but I think that is a bridge too far right now. He desperately wants a land link to Kaliningrad but that ain't gonna happen. I believe at the outside he's gonna reach for the Dnepr and the southern coast of Ukraine. Depends though. He may be willing to throw Belarus to the butcher if he thinks he can make it pay.
What's the consensus on China stepping in to the ring to help Russia should a war break out? I personally don't think they will but could support them on a logistical basis. Transport, fuel, Intel, etc..
Will NK follow suit? Pakistan? Will India give the go ahead to clash with China full on?
Me thinks if this escalates, WW3 is a certainty.
Better hard copy your files and pile up some fire wood if we get too involved.
This is a European problem, let them figure it out amongst themselves. Seriously. Also while we’re at; let’s bring manufacturing back within our borders right after we seal them shut. Then let’s make some sort of doctrine about not crossing lines or else ….
At this point I say let the world burn and this time not come to put the fires out. If anyone try’s to drag us into it we rain holy hell down on them as a warning to everyone else.
Oh and as our final world act before leaving these dummies on their own, let’s ship Brandon and his friends to the Ukraine. You know since they seem to want to be involved over there and all.
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I just find it funny that the cable for the sub detection was cut by a sub ? why did they not detect it and stop it ?
It mentioned that they have data on it but that they are not publicly releasing that info.
I was against the USA doing anything, but things are spinning out of control.
With the recent moves by Russia it is clear that Putin is going to try and take over all of the Ukraine. I don't much give a damn about the Ukraine, but if Putin goes after the whole country then we must fight. For not to fight will invite a Chinese attack on Taiwan. We may still get an attack on Taiwan.
But potentially the stupidest thing the USA could do is to cut Russia off from SWIFT, for then Russia and China may create an alternative to SWIFT which many other countries just might join.
The biggest danger to the USA is a cyber attack on our electrical grid, which is not secure at all.
What's the consensus on China stepping in to the ring to help Russia should a war break out? I personally don't think they will but could support them on a logistical basis. Transport, fuel, Intel, etc..
Will NK follow suit? Pakistan? Will India give the go ahead to clash with China full on?
Me thinks if this escalates, WW3 is a certainty.
Better hard copy your files and pile up some fire wood if we get too involved.
Historically Russia and China are not hand holders. We might be closer allies to Russia than China. Commies don't lockstep globally like you think they might.
India and Paki are always wild cards.
What's the consensus on China stepping in to the ring to help Russia should a war break out? I personally don't think they will but could support them on a logistical basis. Transport, fuel, Intel, etc..
Will NK follow suit? Pakistan? Will India give the go ahead to clash with China full on?
Me thinks if this escalates, WW3 is a certainty.
Better hard copy your files and pile up some fire wood if we get too involved.
I think your scenario is a bit over the top. Other players will certainly be watching. Looking to guage the reaction in the light of their own ambitions.
Biden’s saber rattling and moving chess pieces on the board are meaningless. Putin will take Ukraine and he knows Biden will not intervene militarily.
After all, Biden was in on the whole “greater flexibility” when the Obama Administration sat on their hands as Putin took Crimea. Biden reinforced this dithering position when in 2021, two of the very first things he did were shutting down Keystone XL and dropping ALL economic sanctions against Putin’s Nord Stream 2 pipeline to Germany.
Under the combined “leadership” of Obama and Biden, Putin was allowed to put an energy chokehold on Western Europe and by extension, NATO. This may well be the greatest political self-castration in modern history.
By extension, Taiwan will fall next. The US currently has the least amount of international influence we’ve had since before Pearl Harbor. Making matters worse is the fact that it wouldn’t take all that much shorting of the dollar to put us in a depression. Even if we started a Cold War with Russia and China simultaneously, we couldn’t cancel enough of our $30 TRILLION dollar debt on foreign holdings to make a difference.
Soft men make hard times.
Well, to be fair to poopy pants (not that I wanna be) the writing has been on the wall for over a decade. Europe willingly put their head in the noose and congratulated themselves for doing so.
The real limiting factors on this are gonna be how much support we give Ukraine, their will to fight, and the spectacular ineptitude of the Russian miltary machine. The more Putin reaches for the more they will show the world how poorly they can execute a coordinated combat effort. Don't get me wrong they've got the hardware, just not the "software".
Honestly I hope the Ukraine puts up a hell of a fight. Russia has bled us plenty, by proxy, over the years. I wouldn't mind seeing them sending train loads of their boys home in crates. I just don't want any flag draped coffins on our side over this.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-24-22, 23:42
This is a European problem, let them figure it out amongst themselves. Seriously. Also while we’re at; let’s bring manufacturing back within our borders right after we seal them shut. Then let’s make some sort of doctrine about not crossing lines or else ….
At this point I say let the world burn and this time not come to put the fires out. If anyone try’s to drag us into it we rain holy hell down on them as a warning to everyone else.
Oh and as our final world act before leaving these dummies on their own, let’s ship Brandon and his friends to the Ukraine. You know since they seem to want to be involved over there and all.
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When California burns, our air quality in Colorado sucks... Flames spread, winds blow, the fire comes for your house.
All I know is that all that time, money and tech that we dumped into DARPA better yield some next-level Whoop-ass that we can barely understand.
When California burns, our air quality in Colorado sucks... Flames spread, winds blow, the fire comes for your house.
All I know is that all that time, money and tech that we dumped into DARPA better yield some next-level Whoop-ass that we can barely understand.
Putin knows how to wait and when to act. Honestly I'm surprised it took him this long, we have a weak ass president who can't or won't be able to do anything meaningful. I suppose Putin is just gonna time it to coincide with the Olympics when he knows the world will be distracted or simply because it is now tradition to annex territory during the Olympics.
I'm completely sympathetic to the Ukraine. They've been getting screwed over since the days of Stalin until after the wall came down. There are also lots of Anna Kornikova looking girls over there that I really worry about.
But just as Obama was a paper tiger in Syria, this is not the time to do anything other than the standard "threats of sanctions" against Russia. If anything we should bribe them and promise to import X numbers of Izmash / Saiga rifles IF they knock it off already and stop f'ing around with the Ukraine.
Putin doesn't want a ground war with the US, but his past actions show he isn't afraid of the idea either.
It mentioned that they have data on it but that they are not publicly releasing that info.
They don't have shit. Can't do shit, and won't do shit.
Watch and see.
:)
Pretty much the same will happen if China decide they are going to put the smack down on Taiwan. (We will not be able to do shit and will not do shit)
Why?
We are not about to fight any 'near-peer' adversary in their back yard.
this is not the time to do anything other than the standard "threats of sanctions" against Russia. If anything we should bribe them and promise to import X numbers of Izmash / Saiga rifles IF they knock it off already and stop f'ing around with the Ukraine.
Putin doesn't want a ground war with the US, but his past actions show he isn't afraid of the idea either.
Consider their national debt compared to ours.
Now consider how Russia and China (and others) have been steadily moving away from the US dollar as the currency they use in transactions and in the reserve currencies they buy and hold...
They do not want or 'need' our dollars.
Consider their national debt compared to ours.
Now consider how Russia and China (and others) have been steadily moving away from the US dollar as the currency they use in transactions and in the reserve currencies they buy and hold...
They do not want or 'need' our dollars.
If it wasn't completely clear, "sanctions" are a mostly meaningless, empty gesture and that is the limit of posturing that we should confine ourselves to, especially with the people currently in power.
Consider their national debt compared to ours.
Now consider how Russia and China (and others) have been steadily moving away from the US dollar as the currency they use in transactions and in the reserve currencies they buy and hold...
They do not want or 'need' our dollars.
They need western dollars if they expect to sell POL products. That stuff moves on the US dollar as pertodollars. No, they don't need our money, but they can't operate in the world without it.
If it wasn't completely clear, "sanctions" are a mostly meaningless, empty gesture and that is the limit of posturing that we should confine ourselves to, especially with the people currently in power.
Sanctions really hurt everyone who is not in power or wealthy. It's worked a few times, but not worked far more.
Putin knows how to wait and when to act. Honestly I'm surprised it took him this long, we have a weak ass president who can't or won't be able to do anything meaningful. I suppose Putin is just gonna time it to coincide with the Olympics when he knows the world will be distracted or simply because it is now tradition to annex territory during the Olympics.
I'm completely sympathetic to the Ukraine. They've been getting screwed over since the days of Stalin until after the wall came down. There are also lots of Anna Kornikova looking girls over there that I really worry about.
Putin doesn't want a ground war with the US, but his past actions show he isn't afraid of the idea either.
Ukraine has been getting screwed for about 1500 years.
The place is just sad.
Some of the richest farm land in the world, still being worked with farm equipment from 1800 and horses.
Everybody drinks, I have been on a bus more than a few times and the driver was openly drinking vodka while driving. I have seen uniformed cops in a police car drinking vodka.
Then I made the mistake one night and stayed in a business hotel at the airport in Kyiv, the front door was revolving with those Ukrainian women you like so much. They all looked like crack heads or meth users to me while I sat in the lobby having a drink. The place was a disaster the walls were paper thin and the dudes on both side of me were having a party with multiple girls. By the way the hotel tried to rip me off for the drinks 2 Johnny Walker Blacks which was the best whiskey they had, I signed the bill which was $14 and gave them a tip with local currency. When the bill hit my credit card it was $374.
Ukraine is the most depressing place I have ever been, because it has so much potential but so much of the place is still in the 1800. For reference it upset me more than Sudan, and Haiti. The country in second place for depressing me is Ethiopia, very nice people but so much tyranny and war.
Ukraine has been getting screwed for about 1500 years.
The place is just sad.
Some of the richest farm land in the world, still being worked with farm equipment from 1800 and horses.
Everybody drinks, I have been on a bus more than a few times and the driver was openly drinking vodka while driving. I have seen uniformed cops in a police car drinking vodka.
Then I made the mistake one night and stayed in a business hotel at the airport in Kyiv, the front door was revolving with those Ukrainian women you like so much. They all looked like crack heads or meth users to me while I sat in the lobby having a drink. The place was a disaster the walls were paper thin and the dudes on both side of me were having a party with multiple girls. By the way the hotel tried to rip me off for the drinks 2 Johnny Walker Blacks which was the best whiskey they had, I signed the bill which was $14 and gave them a tip with local currency. When the bill hit my credit card it was $374.
Ukraine is the most depressing place I have ever been, because it has so much potential but so much of the place is still in the 1800. For reference it upset me more than Sudan, and Haiti. The country in second place for depressing me is Ethiopia, very nice people but so much tyranny and war.
Agreed, with some. Ukraine has been getting the shaft for hundred and hundreds of years. Oil rich, strategically situated, coastal access and ports, a ton of rich, productive farmland. It'll always be a 'backwards' type of country. But the people are great, it's beautiful, and becoming popular with expats (not me...I would not want to live there).
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-25-22, 08:58
The political cartoon that needs to be made is people labeled Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Hungry being marched by a German into a gas chamber plumbed to Russian natural gas line….
Two escalations today, one from both sides.
Russia and started joint air patrols with Syrian Air Force, right up to the Israeli border with Syria. The question is will this keep Israel from hitting arms transports to Hizbullah? Russia has entered into a 20 year mutual defense pack with Iran this week which follows up a similar deal with China but for 25 years earlier this year.
USA has moved multiple Global Hawks from UAE to Ukraine today.
Things are starting to move faster, the only thing left for Putin to do is build field hospitals in the territory he now holds in eastern Ukraine. If he builds hospitals, then I think it is going to pop off quickly after this.
Screw it. If it's good for the goose...
I say we sack Cuba and lease it out to Sandals and Hedo.
Screw it. If it's good for the goose...
I say we sack Cuba and lease it out to Sandals and Hedo.
That is simple, just drop sanctions against Cuba and the money will pour in to develop resorts, hotels, coca cola, pharma factories etc.
But watch out for Cuba women, they are aggressive. I have a friend that took a job in Cuba and he had to quit after 3 months. He had so many sexy hot beautiful women knock on his front door offering a night of pleasure in exchange for dinner ans drinks. He wanted to stay married so he quit his job and left the island forever. The back story is he prior to this was an advisor to the President of the Dominican Republic and he said the Dominican girls are tame compared to Cuban girls. Which is insane based on what I have seen even in my small farm town in the DR.
But if we don't "take it" from the commies first it won't be any fun.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-25-22, 15:41
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/25/politics/electric-grid-attractive-target-domestic-violent-extremists/index.html
Putting the idea that if Putin tries to take down our grid, it is actually……….. that’s right………. WHITE SUPREMACISTS!!!
Boy wouldn't that just fit the bill for the FBI. I bet they are salivating.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/25/politics/electric-grid-attractive-target-domestic-violent-extremists/index.html
Putting the idea that if Putin tries to take down our grid, it is actually……….. that’s right………. WHITE SUPREMACISTS!!!
Do they even ****ing hear themselves? ��
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/25/politics/electric-grid-attractive-target-domestic-violent-extremists/index.html
Putting the idea that if Putin tries to take down our grid, it is actually……….. that’s right………. WHITE SUPREMACISTS!!!
Our enemies are smart, they know the Left only has loyalty to their Party and do not care about this country. Our adversaries can release a virus, shutdown the grid, hack our defenses, sow discord…. And there will be no repercussions because the criminals running the ComDem party will scream “racist! Orange man bad! White supremacy!” Then take the opportunity to tax and take away more freedoms in this country. We should have taken a chunk out of China’s ass for the havoc they created with Covid but instead our “elected” officials used it as an excuse to fleece the taxpayers of trillions of dollars while shutting down freedom nationwide.
We had a Russian spammer right here on M4C last night, trying to distract the troops. They're pulling out all stops leading up to the invasion of Ukraine, meanwhile XiDen continues to crap his pants on literally every front.
Inkslinger
01-26-22, 07:54
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/25/politics/electric-grid-attractive-target-domestic-violent-extremists/index.html
Putting the idea that if Putin tries to take down our grid, it is actually……….. that’s right………. WHITE SUPREMACISTS!!!
I thought the same thing. It’s almost like the left and the propaganda machine are begging Putin to hit our grid just so they can blame it on white males.
robbins290
01-26-22, 08:13
We had a Russian spammer right here on M4C last night, trying to distract the troops. They're pulling out all stops leading up to the invasion of Ukraine, meanwhile XiDen continues to crap his pants on literally every front.
Which thread was this? do you have a link? I must have missed it.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-26-22, 08:16
I thought the same thing. It’s almost like the left and the propaganda machine are begging Putin to hit our grid just so they can blame it on white males.
We’ll, Putin is a white male……
Inkslinger
01-26-22, 08:23
We’ll, Putin is a white male……
I guess I should edit to say “American white males”.
Which thread was this? do you have a link? I must have missed it.
Its been cleaned and buried again. It was an extremely old thread that suddenly surfaced with around 99 posts of .ru links for your enjoyment.
Its been cleaned and buried again. It was an extremely old thread that suddenly surfaced with around 99 posts of .ru links for your enjoyment.
Didn't see it. The mods save me from my blood pressure yet again.
No SWIFT No Gas.
Might such to be a German
They're pulling out all stops leading up to the invasion of Ukraine, meanwhile XiDen continues to crap his pants on literally every front.
Ukraine does not seem to think so.
In Kyiv, Ukrainian Defense Minister Oleksii Reznikov told parliament that "as of today, there are no grounds to believe” Russia will invade imminently, The Associated Press reported. "Don’t worry, sleep well," Reznikov said. "No need to have your bags packed."
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky also called for calm on Tuesday. "We are strong enough to keep everything under control and derail any attempts at destabilization," he said. Addressing Washington’s decision to order the families of US diplomats in Ukraine to leave the country, Zelensky said the move "doesn’t necessarily signal an inevitable escalation and is part of a complex diplomatic game."
And:
"In fact, there have been no radical changes in the security situation recently: the threat of new waves of Russian aggression has remained constant since 2014, and the accumulation of Russian troops near the state border began in April last year," the ministry said.
FWIW - The 'accumulation of troops' is / are servicemen of the Western Military District doing scheduled military exercises at the combined arms training grounds in Voronezh, Belgorod, Bryansk and Smolensk, not far from Russia’s border with Ukraine and Belarus. Those training grounds are not 'new'. They have been there a while. They are not very big either if you dig into it and do some reading.
Think about how much 'stuff' would be needed for a real 'invasion of Ukraine'. Moving around enough food, fuel, and ammunition to supply all the different troops and their respective armaments / hardware and to be able to last long enough to successfully pull off an 'invasion' of Ukraine would be noticeable. That much 'stuff' is not just sitting around there stockpiled on the border waiting for the Russians to use. If it was or if they were currently moving it there - we would have satellite pictures of it.
You guys are hard core falling for every bit of Propaganda coming out of the Bidet administration.
These are the same (insert bad words here) that look us dead in the eyes and tell us shit like 'There is no problem on our southern border', and 'Masks work at stopping the spread of Covid19'.
There comes a point where you got to be able to know that if their lips are moving - They are flat out lying.
Ukraine does not seem to think so.
And:
FWIW - The 'accumulation of troops' is / are servicemen of the Western Military District doing scheduled military exercises at the combined arms training grounds in Voronezh, Belgorod, Bryansk and Smolensk, not far from Russia’s border with Ukraine and Belarus. Those training grounds are not 'new'. They have been there a while. They are not very big either if you dig into it and do some reading.
Think about how much 'stuff' would be needed for a real 'invasion of Ukraine'. Moving around enough food, fuel, and ammunition to supply all the different troops and their respective armaments / hardware and to be able to last long enough to successfully pull off an 'invasion' of Ukraine would be noticeable. That much 'stuff' is not just sitting around there stockpiled on the border waiting for the Russians to use. If it was or if they were currently moving it there - we would have satellite pictures of it.
You guys are hard core falling for every bit of Propaganda coming out of the Bidet administration.
These are the same (insert bad words here) that look us dead in the eyes and tell us shit like 'There is no problem on our southern border', and 'Masks work at stopping the spread of Covid19'.
There comes a point where you got to be able to know that if their lips are moving - They are flat out lying.
Wait, do you have a legitimate disorder?
ETA - nevermind, HAS to be a plant or a troll.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wait, do you have a legitimate disorder?
ETA - nevermind, HAS to be a plant or a troll.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkGenuine question. What's untrue/wrong about what he said?
I thought the same thing. It’s almost like the left and the propaganda machine are begging Putin to hit our grid just so they can blame it on white males.
Exactly what I was thinking. It allows an easy out if Putin retaliates for anything we're doing. Win/win for the tyrants.
Genuine question. What's untrue/wrong about what he said?
Yes, Russia is saying that they’re conducting training in those locations. Of course they’ll say that. How convenient that the training is scheduled right near the border. Even if that’s genuinely all it is right now, doesn’t mean that they’re not better prepared to launch on a moments notice.
And there’s plenty of open source pictures about all of the stuff. It’s not like everyone is flipping out over a couple of trucks.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, Russia is saying that they’re conducting training in those locations. Of course they’ll say that. How convenient that the training is scheduled right near the border. Even if that’s genuinely all it is right now, doesn’t mean that they’re not better prepared to launch on a moments notice.
And there’s plenty of open source pictures about all of the stuff. It’s not like everyone is flipping out over a couple of trucks.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, fair enough. I agree with that too. But I still think is being blown out of proportion on our end for political and strategic purposes. Russia invading Ukraine is extraordinarily unlikely in my estimation for a variety of legitimate reasons. The most important of which would be the long term destabilization of the entire region and political fallout, which benefits us, but certainly not them. Would Russia love to take over Ukraine? You bet! But if they do so, they'll do it by working internally, the same way we did when we installed Poroshenko, and a number of "democratic" leaders worldwide for that matter. There's nothing new under the sun, and the Ruskies know damn well what benefits them and what doesn't.
The first question to ask when looking at something like this is, Qui Bono, who benefits? Do the Russians really benefit from a military annexation of Ukraine, or will the fallout be worse than any potential gain? What position would it put them in politically after doing something like that? On the other hand, do we benefit from baiting Russia into an aggressive action that can subsequently be used for political and economic leverage? Would a destabilized region benefit us or Russia? Remember, it's not the steak that sells, but rather the sizzle. Perception is reality to most people, and our government is doing a masterful job of selling the perception they've manipulated as reality to us.
I'm 99% certain that this is nothing more than a propaganda ploy. And we (the people) are falling for it. I could be wrong, but it really just doesn't add up for them to attack. Too much to lose.
Yes, Russia is saying that they’re conducting training in those locations. Of course they’ll say that. How convenient that the training is scheduled right near the border. Even if that’s genuinely all it is right now, doesn’t mean that they’re not better prepared to launch on a moments notice.
And there’s plenty of open source pictures about all of the stuff. It’s not like everyone is flipping out over a couple of trucks.
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East Germany and USSR did that, too, right up against West Germany, and nothing happened. That said, pre-WW2 Germany said the same thing about butting up against France and Poland, then went all honey badger on them.
Russia is expanding in Syria and making mutual defense deals, that are going to bring problems.
A week ago I took Putins side in this whole thing. He is reacting exactly as the USA would if China or someone out troops in Mexico. Like the USA did when USSR put troops and missiles in Cuba. But he is spreading his net too far and wide. He needs to be put in his place.
heat with,
I still think kicking Russia out of SWIFT is a very dangerous move for the USA. But now a part of me would like to see Putin suffer a little and see how the Germans like the cold with out gas to
Russia is expanding in Syria and making mutual defense deals, that are going to bring problems.
A week ago I took Putins side in this whole thing. He is reacting exactly as the USA would if China or someone out troops in Mexico. Like the USA did when USSR put troops and missiles in Cuba. But he is spreading his net too far and wide. He needs to be put in his place.
heat with,
I still think kicking Russia out of SWIFT is a very dangerous move for the USA. But now a part of me would like to see Putin suffer a little and see how the Germans like the cold with out gas to
Agreed. A part of all this is posturing on Putin's part because he wants to remind the West that Russia is still a force to be reckoned with, and a nation with several thousand nukes certainly is. But I really think it comes from a place of weakness. A lion doesn't have to tell everyone he's a lion. On the other hand, that kind of posturing works well domestically, cementing his power base. External threats always have the effect of creating solidarity internally.
ETA: Russia has had a foothold in Syria for at least 60 years since at least the 1950s, and is at least partially responsible for the U.S. diplomatic offensive in the other ME countries such as Saudi Arabia in the '60s.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-27-22, 13:08
Russia is expanding in Syria and making mutual defense deals, that are going to bring problems.
A week ago I took Putins side in this whole thing. He is reacting exactly as the USA would if China or someone out troops in Mexico. Like the USA did when USSR put troops and missiles in Cuba. But he is spreading his net too far and wide. He needs to be put in his place.
heat with,
I still think kicking Russia out of SWIFT is a very dangerous move for the USA. But now a part of me would like to see Putin suffer a little and see how the Germans like the cold with out gas to
But when did we control Canada and starve 3 million of them?
Are we massing troops to invade Mexico?
Did we take the St. Lawrence Sea Way with Blackwater and Company?
That doesn’t even get into the inherent disparity between a fragile free market democracy versus Russian ironically fascist despot ruled controlled economy.
I’ve never understood these arguments beyond the idea that countries have borders- that is about the only similarity.
And I guess everyone lost their copy of this, or the warranty expired…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
Russia is expanding in Syria and making mutual defense deals, that are going to bring problems.
A week ago I took Putins side in this whole thing. He is reacting exactly as the USA would if China or someone out troops in Mexico. Like the USA did when USSR put troops and missiles in Cuba. But he is spreading his net too far and wide. He needs to be put in his place.
heat with,
I still think kicking Russia out of SWIFT is a very dangerous move for the USA. But now a part of me would like to see Putin suffer a little and see how the Germans like the cold with out gas to
me too
Genuine question. What's untrue/wrong about what he said?
Did you notice when he replied to this post of yours that he could not refute ANYTHING I said with facts?
He is just another of the clueless.
Even when presented with recent directly quoted statements from senior Ukrainian officials that run counter to his brainwashing - He still insists he is correct yet can present zero evidence to back up any of his assertions.
This guy is proof that some guys really DO believe everything they see on TV. :)
Did you notice when he replied to this post of yours that he could not refute ANYTHING I said with facts?
He is just another of the clueless.
Even when presented with recent directly quoted statements from senior Ukrainian officials that run counter to his brainwashing - He still insists he is correct yet can present zero evidence to back up any of his assertions.
This guy is proof that some guys really DO believe everything they see on TV. :)
"It's a lot easier to fool someone, than to convince them they have been fooled."
That said, I think he has a valid point regarding the "exercises" being a front for moving troops into the area. Not that I don't understand why the Russians would want to do so confronted with NATO's encroachment on their country and all. They're saber rattling for the same reason a rattlesnake does. "Stay Away or I'll kick your ass!" I do think they're just showing their insecurity though. They certainly want no fight with us. The real question is whether "we" are looking for a fight with them...
"It's a lot easier to fool someone, than to convince them they have been fooled."
https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1486883931098079233?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
They are deleting and twisting the truth on this right now.
Like they do on everything else...
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-27-22, 21:33
"It's a lot easier to fool someone, than to convince them they have been fooled."
That said, I think he has a valid point regarding the "exercises" being a front for moving troops into the area. Not that I don't understand why the Russians would want to do so confronted with NATO's encroachment on their country and all. They're saber rattling for the same reason a rattlesnake does. "Stay Away or I'll kick your ass!" I do think they're just showing their insecurity though. They certainly want no fight with us. The real question is whether "we" are looking for a fight with them...
Nope. The Russians are like a wolf eating a carcass and growling at you. I really wonder about peoples…. I don’t know how else to put it, intelligence? The Russians want Ukraine. They said they want Ukraine. They’re putting troops on the border to Ukraine. They’re already in Ukraine. Maybe if they hadn’t invaded Ukraine once before, maybe you could say well maybe they won’t do at this time.
And this crap about NATO threatening Russia, where the heck does that come from? The Soviets, the Russian Empire, the power that is residing in Moscow has always had designs on controlling Central and Eastern Europe. The fact of these countries don’t wanna be under that control means nothing? Maybe the southern states to just give in to the coastal elites, because you know that’s the way things should be.
Who lost the Cold War by the way?
Who is the threat to Russia? NATO? You mean the alliance that couldn’t tackle Afghanistan? Exactly who here thinks that Leopard and M1 tanks are going to be taking snap shots outside the Kremlin? Are you people listening to yourselves?
Russia is the rapist next door that is fingerbanging your wife, and has their junk out and people here are like.” Oh, he feels threatened because I have a BB gun and are protesting.
Sure, I’m the crazy one
Nope. The Russians are like a wolf eating a carcass and growling at you. I really wonder about peoples…. I don’t know how else to put it, intelligence? The Russians want Ukraine. They said they want Ukraine. They’re putting troops on the border to Ukraine. They’re already in Ukraine. Maybe if they hadn’t invaded Ukraine once before, maybe you could say well maybe they won’t do at this time.
And this crap about NATO threatening Russia, where the heck does that come from? The Soviets, the Russian Empire, the power that is residing in Moscow has always had designs on controlling Central and Eastern Europe. The fact of these countries don’t wanna be under that control means nothing? Maybe the southern states to just give in to the coastal elites, because you know that’s the way things should be.
Who lost the Cold War by the way?
Who is the threat to Russia? NATO? You mean the alliance that couldn’t tackle Afghanistan? Exactly who here thinks that Leopard and M1 tanks are going to be taking snap shots outside the Kremlin? Are you people listening to yourselves?
Russia is the rapist next door that is fingerbanging your wife, and has their junk out and people here are like.” Oh, he feels threatened because I have a BB gun and are protesting.
Sure, I’m the crazy oneBro, I realize you've been taught to hate and distrust Russians your whole life, and that they've done plenty of things to justify that. I'm not sure I can disagree with you on that.
But if you can trust Russians to do one thing, it's to look after their best interests. And you can trust NATO to do one thing, and it's to do the same. The issue is that NATO doesn't like that Russia isn't playing to their tune. Whether right or wrong, that is the case. There really is no true right and wrong in international politics any more; there are only interests. It's simply in NATO's interests to weaken Russia, weaken Putin, and install a crony in his place that serves their interests. Surely that's not a difficult thing to imagine.
I don't believe that Putin thinks that NATO will actually attack. It's all posturing for the sake of internal propaganda purposes. And partially because he wants to show he ain't no punk.
Also surely, you're not so naive as to think everything NATO does is on the up and up, and that everything Russia does is sourced from the pit of hell. Politics are never that black and white, and probably never have been. Russia wants Ukraine, yes. But not to the degree that they're willing to sacrifice decades of stability in the region by taking it forcefully. Even if I were to grant you that the Russians are irredeemably evil, and that the NATO leadership is full of nothing but the purest of intentions, saying that the Russians are stupid enough to forcefully take Ukraine is a bridge too far.
Look at the above CNN report. The Ukrainian president told Bidet that he was full of crap for suggesting that Russians were coming. But you find yourself agreeing with the propaganda these thieves and liars are feeding you. Come on.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-28-22, 04:39
This is not exactly Hitler on one side and Stalin on the other. I understand the Russians historical paranoia. I’m not against Russians, I’m against Putin and an autocratic despot again ruling over Central and Eastern Europe. The very fact that Putin and the Russian state media are lying about what NATO is doing should give you pause. NATO can’t do a road trip, let alone a invasion against an armed major power.
Like I said, is it so impossible to think the Russians are going to invade, if nothing more to get a land route to Chromeo, considering that they’ve already invaded Ukraine once. And this goes towards a long history of US buddy ****ing people. So much for the treaty we signed when Ukraine gave up their nukes.
But when did we control Canada and starve 3 million of them?
Are we massing troops to invade Mexico?
Did we take the St. Lawrence Sea Way with Blackwater and Company?
]
I am well aware of the long and I mean really long history of Russia and Ukraine.
I don't believe what Stalin did in the Ukraine is germane to what is going on today, other than it makes Ukrainians nervous.
Putin and Russia don't like the eastward expansion of NATO. I understand why they don't like it. I just wish the people banging the war drums for a second would understand it, Give Putin the assurance he needs that no new countries will be admitted to NATO. I believe thaqt would calm things down.
NATO had a mission, and 5 years after the collapse of the USSR, the USA should have said that we were leaving NATO both in terms of troops and money. Our side won, yeah. Time to stop wasting the American peoples money
Do the Russians really benefit from a military annexation of Ukraine, or will the fallout be worse than any potential gain? What position would it put them in politically after doing something like that?
Actually, I think Russia has a lot to gain perception-wise from militarily invading. Putin's plan, since the 90s, has been restoring Russian power and prestige. Chechnia, Georgia, and Crimea have all been stepping stones along that path. Gobbling up a portion of territory (territory that Russia has a more or less legitimate, historic claim to) in direct and open opposition to the US and NATO is the next step. It shows they're back, and willing to go toe to toe with the West. The new border, whatever it turns out to be, will likely help them with future dealings with NATO, as it pushes any future NATO border further West, and may prolong/prevent Ukraine from being allowed in. It also helps them vis a vie with China, as it pushes Moscow, not Bejing, to the forefront of the "anti-West" crowd, and potentially can attract more allies (or at least customers) for folks looking to stick it to the West. All of this for a, probably, brief military jaunt into a country that has been unable to retake a few border territories over the last 6-7 years.
What will this cost them? Diplomatic isolation, at least for those that are in lockstep with the West, a few more sanctions, and that's about it. No real change, as I doubt Germany or France will stop sucking in Russian oil and gas. They're already hit with sanctions, and they don't seem to care. They might face some minor Western military assistance, but its doubtful to be significant. They know we're a paper tiger at this point, and Biden openly told them that anything short of total annexation would likely be fine. So, the question is, why not go on a military adventure?
Basically, both NATO and Russia are acting like imperial powers, so why wouldn't we see a return to imperial power plays. Yes, part of the problem could be solved by NATO and Russia formally recognizing the neutrality of Ukraine, and staying out of the region, but both sides have violated such agreements before. Unfortunately, it's rare that imperial power plays are solved by honest negotiations when more is on the line than just the prima facia issue. Both sides want a political and military win to make up for past defeats and losses (Russia, the Cold War, NATO, Afghanistan), and both have more at stake than where the lines on the map are drawn.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-28-22, 14:02
I am well aware of the long and I mean really long history of Russia and Ukraine.
I don't believe what Stalin did in the Ukraine is germane to what is going on today, other than it makes Ukrainians nervous.
Putin and Russia don't like the eastward expansion of NATO. I understand why they don't like it. I just wish the people banging the war drums for a second would understand it, Give Putin the assurance he needs that no new countries will be admitted to NATO. I believe thaqt would calm things down.
NATO had a mission, and 5 years after the collapse of the USSR, the USA should have said that we were leaving NATO both in terms of troops and money. Our side won, yeah. Time to stop wasting the American peoples money
Sorry, I forgot that history ended in 1991. No more need for weapons, diplomacy, or sides? The daughter struggles of the Peace of Westphalia are over. Yeah! The problem is the Russians and the Germans are tied at the gas nipple- Disraeli would be concerned…
Win a war and leave the Europeans to their own devices- like that never went badly.
I don’t know why you think that the Russians concerns are any less relevant than Ukrainians? The Russians concerns for security are based on Napoleon and Hitler, which kind of bracket the Ukrainian massacres.
There is no end to power struggles, you can ‘win’ a war if you willing to go full salt-Carthage/boots-on-the-throat- but there is no ‘end’.
I still think we could avoid war, with some common sense.
I believe that NATO will not fight this war because they are tied to the Russian oil and gas.
So then it is left to the USA, alone. More American lives wasted and tax money.
For Ukraine to join NATO it takes a vote of all NATO countries and 2/3 support in the Senate. I dont think this is possible to acheive.
So give Putin what he wants a guarantee we will not force Ukraine into NATO.
I still think we could avoid war, with some common sense.
I believe that NATO will not fight this war because they are tied to the Russian oil and gas.
So then it is left to the USA, alone. More American lives wasted and tax money.
For Ukraine to join NATO it takes a vote of all NATO countries and 2/3 support in the Senate. I dont think this is possible to acheive.
So give Putin what he wants a guarantee we will not force Ukraine into NATO.
Why would Putin take that guarantee, when he can just take Ukraine and slam the door shut in NATO’s face?
As for common sense, that usually goes out the window when power, land, natural resources and money are on the table. History is full to the brim with examples.
Why would Putin take that guarantee, when he can just take Ukraine and slam the door shut in NATO’s face?
Because Putin is smart, no very smart. He knows Sun Tzu was correct, that if you can win the war without firing a shot that is a greater victory than having to actually fight the war to win.
Any Monty Python fans? The conversation between Biden and Ukrainian president is like a classic scene from Monty Python:
B: "I'm here to rescue you!"
U: "But I don't need rescuing!"
B:. "Yes you do, you're about to be invaded!"
U: "No I'm not!"
B: "Yes you are!"
Ukraine is calling BS on more and more US propaganda regarding Russian movements recently. I wonder why we would make stuff up to make the Russians look bad. Any ideas, anyone?
Inkslinger
01-30-22, 18:47
Ukraine is calling BS on more and more US propaganda regarding Russian movements recently. I wonder why we would make stuff up to make the Russians look bad. Any ideas, anyone?
The list of reasons is probably really long, with the cares of Ukrainian sovereignty at the bottom.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-31-22, 08:28
Of course Putin isn’t going to invade Ukraine, again. He doesn’t invade countries, except for the times he did.
Of course Putin isn’t going to invade Ukraine, again. He doesn’t invade countries, except for the times he did.
How many have we invaded now (or just bombed the piss out of)? I lose count...
How many have we invaded now (or just bombed the piss out of)? I lose count...
Exactly!
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-31-22, 21:05
How many have we invaded now (or just bombed the piss out of)? I lose count...
Exactly!
Uhm, so how does that bolster your argument that Putin isn’t going to invade Ukraine?
Frankly most of the countries we bombed and invaded deserved it, and frankly we didn’t do it hard enough.
Who were the last good guys that we bomb or invaded?
Frankly most of the countries we bombed and invaded deserved it, and frankly we didn’t do it hard enough.
Who were the last good guys that we bomb or invaded?
So...
It's ok when WE do it but...
Damn dude.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-31-22, 22:17
So...
It's ok when WE do it but...
Damn dude.
Name a country in the past thirty years that we thumped that they didn’t have it coming?
Your mindset is the same simple thinking that the stupid map of Canada and Mexico being Russian client states.
PUTIN HAS ALREADY INVADED UKRAINE AND OTHER COUNTRIES FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN HE WANTED TO.
But the West and NATO are a threat to him— ONLY IF HE KEEPS ON INVADING AND THREATENING HIS NEIGHBORS. And then the only THREAT is that we won’t let him kill his neighbors. How mean of us. DO you let strangers beat up your kids and rape your wife to make up for your just existing?
All these countries are telling Russia to piss off after having been under Moscow’s boot for half a century and don’t want to go back.
I swear, the only German some of you would beat up is the one currently felating Putin so that you could suck his junk harder.
I’m not saying that we need to put our troops there, but some of you don’t even want to allow the Ukrainians to defend themselves.
So...
It's ok when WE do it but...
Damn dude.
absolutely
don't give a rats' ass to other countries, only ours. If and when we do, we do and we should hit so fking hard that ww2 allied command would be impressed. The world is better when we are strong and if that involves kicking some tail on occasion then so be it. That said, I only support it when we're in it to go Genghis style on their a$$es.
Name a country in the past thirty years that we thumped that they didn’t have it coming?
Iraq (X2)
As for the rest, I don't care if we arm Ukraine to the teeth with slightly obsolete weaponry, ordinance, band-aids and bullets. But when "Ukraine" is telling us what Putin will or won't do, we have to be mindful of which faction is talking. They have over a HUNDRED political parties. In their last election they had 22 parties that met the 5% threshold for ballot access, and 5 parties that won seats. There is no consensus in Ukraine, which makes supporting the "right" side a very nebulous endeavor.
We almost never agreed with Obama's policy decisions and Biden is pretty much a 100% hell no, and we only have two factions in the US to worry about. It's something to be mindful of when we meddle in the affairs of a country on the other side of the world.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-01-22, 12:37
Iraq (X2)
There is a difference between not a good idea and not deserving it.
After 9/11 the US govt decided to be done with the ME as a trouble spot. Take out A-Stan, move to IRaq and then squeeze Iran till it pops. The problem is that the place is so F’ing dysfunctional and screwed. Can’t build a castle out of sand. IF it had worked, we be in a totally different world. It didn’t.
But Saddam deserved to get thumped.
There is a difference between not a good idea and not deserving it.
After 9/11 the US govt decided to be done with the ME as a trouble spot. Take out A-Stan, move to IRaq and then squeeze Iran till it pops. The problem is that the place is so F’ing dysfunctional and screwed. Can’t build a castle out of sand. IF it had worked, we be in a totally different world. It didn’t.
But Saddam deserved to get thumped.
Sure, but Saddam only deserved to get thumped by his own people. He wasn't the aggressor in 1990 with Kuwait, they were holding $14B in debt over Iraq's head while they slant drilled into Iraqi oil fields without credit to that debt. And again in 2003, US intelligence manufactured a WMD justification to invade Iraq out of whole cloth. So sorry, but saying "he deserved it" makes for bad foreign policy. Just like spending four years officially complaining about Russia meddling in our elections is bad policy, when the US has itself meddled in over 80 foreign elections since WWII. That episode and our interference in Ukraine internal affairs has pushed us into the impasse with Russia we face today. I have little doubt that Putin deserves everything he has coming to him, but it's none of our damned business to give it to him.
Averageman
02-01-22, 13:46
So sorry, but saying "he deserved it" makes for bad foreign policy. Just like spending four years officially complaining about Russia meddling in our elections is bad policy, when the US has itself meddled in over 80 foreign elections since WWII. That episode and our interference in Ukraine internal affairs has pushed us into the impasse with Russia we face today. I have little doubt that Putin deserves everything he has coming to him, but it's none of our damned business to give it to him.
You know, these are the same folks who got us out of Afghanistan, do you really think this can go as well as that did?
I wouldn't bet on it.
Let's just sit this one out. It's not Tiawan.
I'm with sitting it out, in terms of troops.
But load em up with so many SAMs that it ain't safe to fly a kite. Any 8 year old kid that wants to take a pot shot at a rooskie should have a gun and ammo put in his hand.
Putin actively encouraged (and likely helped) Iran to supply IED and EFP devices and components to kill American troops. Let's see how his boys like em.
Two can play the "war by proxy" game, and it's Russia's turn in the barrel.
You know, these are the same folks who got us out of Afghanistan, do you really think this can go as well as that did?
I wouldn't bet on it.
Let's just sit this one out. It's not Tiawan.
Exactly. One is of HUGE strategic interest to the US. The other is a bunch of bickering alcoholics who gave us Alexander Vindman.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-01-22, 15:08
Exactly. One is of HUGE strategic interest to the US. The other is a bunch of bickering alcoholics who gave us Alexander Vindman.
Actually one and a spare…
Internal affairs of Ukraine - as if Putin’s little green men were an external Ukraine event. And it isn’t like Ukraine is a single event. Georgia ring a belle?
So 1997 borders for NATO. Like the fall didn’t happen at all?
You put that border with Putin’s invasion penchant and you WILL get a hot war. If I were Poland, I’d actively whack Putin. You give people no options and nothing to lose, they will get violent. Poland has more than enough talent and resources to go nuke. Last time in Poland, my hotel was filled with IAF people…. You think if the Russians give Syria a pass that Israel won’t lose some material?
Actually one and a spare…
Internal affairs of Ukraine - as if Putin’s little green men were an external Ukraine event. And it isn’t like Ukraine is a single event. Georgia ring a belle?
So 1997 borders for NATO. Like the fall didn’t happen at all?
You put that border with Putin’s invasion penchant and you WILL get a hot war. If I were Poland, I’d actively whack Putin. You give people no options and nothing to lose, they will get violent. Poland has more than enough talent and resources to go nuke. Last time in Poland, my hotel was filled with IAF people…. You think if the Russians give Syria a pass that Israel won’t lose some material?
If we draw our bright red line at Israel and Poland, and stop dicking the dog in Putin's back yard, yes I think the status quo can be maintained indefinitely. At least until he's dead and gone.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-01-22, 17:41
If we draw our bright red line at Israel and Poland, and stop dicking the dog in Putin's back yard, yes I think the status quo can be maintained indefinitely. At least until he's dead and gone.
BAAAAAHAAAAAA,HaaaaaHAAAA.
Wait, you're serious?
Like there is only one Putin, or he won't pull a Fidel and last longer than a Twinkie...
or he won't pull a Fidel and last longer than a Twinkie...
How many leaders of other countries have become well known for Putin trying to have them assassinated?
Like we are well known for doing...
Juan Guaido is a good current example. We keep insisting he is the lawful president of Venezuela but he ain't...
1997 borders, if he wants to take over and control those countries.
Then I have a problem with it.
If on the other hand he will let them be free and independent, just not members of NATO.
I have no problem with it.
Places the USA has gone to war that were none of our business, Iraq and Libya for 2. Obama also gave his blessing to France to start the last war in Cote d'Ivoire to install against the Constitution the current President of Cote d;Ivoire.
BAAAAAHAAAAAA,HaaaaaHAAAA.
Wait, you're serious?
Like there is only one Putin, or he won't pull a Fidel and last longer than a Twinkie...
Yes I'm serious. Where has Cuba been for the last 50 years?
Contained.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-02-22, 14:20
Yes I'm serious. Where has Cuba been for the last 50 years?
Contained.
Fomenting revolution through out Latin America???
And a big difference between a client state and the el Jefe…
Fomenting revolution through out Latin America???
And a big difference between a client state and the el Jefe…
Then why did you bring up Castro to begin with? It doesn't matter how long Putin lasts. Stop moving the goal posts. You and I have a different opinion in this matter. Yours doesn't invalidate mine in any way, shape or form. Your opinion isn't superior to mine, it's just an opinion. :agree:
Yes I'm serious. Where has Cuba been for the last 50 years?
Contained.
Hardly, Angola, Central America.
Sharing this from another site.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DTSSvtg19I&t=700s
It honestly wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Russia would do a false flag attack as a pretext for invasion, but if it was just a guess or a warning of something Russia might do, it should have been worded as such.
And that line where he asks the reporter if he doubted the US and British governments about something was... odd. Like, yeah, no duh I doubt their word and honesty. Hell, I doubt their competence. But the tone was not just one of incredulity, but almost a warning. Like if the reporter acknowledged that he did doubt the US government, there would be some sort of consequences for that admission.
Sharing this from another site.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DTSSvtg19I&t=700s
It honestly wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Russia would do a false flag attack as a pretext for invasion, but if it was just a guess or a warning of something Russia might do, it should have been worded as such.
And that line where he asks the reporter if he doubted the US and British governments about something was... odd. Like, yeah, no duh I doubt their word and honesty. Hell, I doubt their competence. But the tone was not just one of incredulity, but almost a warning. Like if the reporter acknowledged that he did doubt the US government, there would be some sort of consequences for that admission.
Price: "Do you doubt Russia's TTP's?"
Reporter to Price: "No, but we know YOUR TTP's too!" :D
It honestly wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Russia would do a false flag attack as a pretext for invasion, but...
Glad we have never done any crap like that... :rolleyes:
The Truth About Tonkin
Questions about the Gulf of Tonkin incidents have persisted for more than 40 years. But once-classified documents and tapes released in the past several years, combined with previously uncovered facts, make clear that high government officials distorted facts and deceived the American public about events that led to full U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War.
https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2008/february/truth-about-tonkin
Commander Stockdale was again in the action, this time alone. When his wingman's aircraft developed trouble, Stockdale got permission to launch solo from the Ticonderoga. He arrived overhead at 2135. For more than 90 minutes, he made runs parallel to the ships' course and at low altitude (below 2,000 feet) looking for the enemy vessels. He reported later, "I had the best seat in the house to watch that event and our destroyers were just shooting at phantom targets—there were no PT boats there . . . there was nothing there but black water and American firepower."
Back on board the Ticonderoga, Commander Stockdale had been ordered to prepare to launch an air strike against the North Vietnamese targets for their "attacks" of the previous evening. Unlike Captain Herrick, Stockdale had no doubt about what had happened: "We were about to launch a war under false pretenses, in the face of the on-scene military commander's advice to the contrary."19 Despite his reservations, Stockdale led a strike of 18 aircraft against an oil storage facility at Vinh, located just inland of where the alleged attacks on the Maddox and Turner Joy had occurred.
Cagemonkey
02-04-22, 13:42
Glad we have never done any crap like that... :rolleyes:
https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2008/february/truth-about-tonkin
Thank Goodness. Some Sanity!
Glad we have never done any crap like that... :rolleyes:
https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2008/february/truth-about-tonkin
That was the second attack to which Stockdale was referring. The Aug 2 'battle' was real I believe.
That was the second attack to which Stockdale was referring. The Aug 2 'battle' was real I believe.
Lots of good historical detail at the US Naval Institue website I linked to. Not 'opinion' stuff there but historical facts.
BTW - Glad you are doing well sir.
Lots of good historical detail at the US Naval Institue website I linked to. Not 'opinion' stuff there but historical facts.
BTW - Glad you are doing well sir.
I am doing okay, thanks for asking. Definitely getting there, getting better.
I agree about the naval institute, I am a member, it's a great website and they have crazy book deals which is the biggest reason I am a member. Their history section is excellent. It does not seem that the other service branches have that type of thing going on, which is a shame.
NATO is like a pedophile person that many like
be it a priest or a uncle or the great neighbor that helps people out and builds stuff for the kids they cant be bad !
freaking needs to be dismantled
it started out with good intentions but like any political power grab its taken over by people with their own agenda
Sharing this from another site.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DTSSvtg19I&t=700
It honestly wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Russia would do a false flag attack as a pretext for invasion, but if it was just a guess or a warning of something Russia might do, it should have been worded as such.
And that line where he asks the reporter if he doubted the US and British governments about something was... odd. Like, yeah, no duh I doubt their word and honesty. Hell, I doubt their competence. But the tone was not just one of incredulity, but almost a warning. Like if the reporter acknowledged that he did doubt the US government, there would be some sort of consequences for that admission.
yeah saw this on fox to :) same thing just tucker laughing at the idiocy of the CIA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hroe2LSBraU&t=1s
NATO resulted in a very real and needed alliance of nations to hedge the ambitions of the Soviet Union and its satellites. When the Soviet Union and its Warsaw Pact went belly up, so should have NATO. Priorities change.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-05-22, 16:51
Whatever. When Putin invades or launches a coup, you guys will all blame the US/NATO for it. You'all would rather think you're right, than be right; and when you're wrong, you'll say you're right for the wrong reasons. But I'm the crazy one for believing that the guy who keeps on invading his neighbors will do it again, and again. It's like Hitler, Chamberlain, and Czechoslovakia never happened. Chamberlain at least eventually saw the errors of his way, you guys will probably say that the Baltic states, and then the Poles had it coming. Glad France didn't worry about pissing off the English more...
But I'm the crazy one for believing that the guy who keeps on invading his neighbors will do it again, and again.
You are not crazy, Just brainwashed...
Add up all of the countries we have bombed, invaded, or staged coups in over say the last 60 years and compare to the same list from Russia.
Who has the MUCH longer list of starting shit?
one could say he just wants Ukraine back :)
the history is back and forth and think if Puerto Rico became a communist Russian territory would we want it back ? what would we do ?
we never had it we got it kinda but not really and then we lose it ? well would we want it back
again no way should we be there of course let them mess with it and really I like others think the USA should have been out of NATO long ago and if they want to do something let them without us involved
its like NATO says we hate you OH WAIT we need you now OK USA go in so others hate you more let you take the hit for us so you look bad and we do not !
BoringGuy45
02-05-22, 19:18
You are not crazy, Just brainwashed...
Add up all of the countries we have bombed, invaded, or staged coups in over say the last 60 years and compare to the same list from Russia.
Who has the MUCH longer list of starting shit?
At worst, it’s a tie. Russia invaded or intervened with Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan, and, more recently, Georgia, plus supported the Viet Cong including direct action on US troops by Russian troops in Vietnam. Let’s also not forget Cuba, Angola, support for the PLO, IRA, Libya, FARC, Chavez…
Whatever. When Putin invades or launches a coup, you guys will all blame the US/NATO for it. You'all would rather think you're right, than be right; and when you're wrong, you'll say you're right for the wrong reasons. But I'm the crazy one for believing that the guy who keeps on invading his neighbors will do it again, and again. It's like Hitler, Chamberlain, and Czechoslovakia never happened. Chamberlain at least eventually saw the errors of his way, you guys will probably say that the Baltic states, and then the Poles had it coming. Glad France didn't worry about pissing off the English more...
First, I already said and most here would probably agree that Poland is off limits. They’ve fought alongside us in the GWOT, in some cases more than the major EU players have.
Second, feel free to send your sons, daughters, money, thoughts and prayers to Ukraine, but leave the rest of us out of it. You can call us when he invades Israel or Poland and we’ll be right there. ;)
Whatever. When Putin invades or launches a coup, you guys will all blame the US/NATO for it. You'all would rather think you're right, than be right; and when you're wrong, you'll say you're right for the wrong reasons. But I'm the crazy one for believing that the guy who keeps on invading his neighbors will do it again, and again. It's like Hitler, Chamberlain, and Czechoslovakia never happened. Chamberlain at least eventually saw the errors of his way, you guys will probably say that the Baltic states, and then the Poles had it coming. Glad France didn't worry about pissing off the English more...
What neighbors did Putin invade?
Whatever. When Putin invades or launches a coup, you guys will all blame the US/NATO for it. You'all would rather think you're right, than be right; and when you're wrong, you'll say you're right for the wrong reasons. But I'm the crazy one for believing that the guy who keeps on invading his neighbors will do it again, and again. It's like Hitler, Chamberlain, and Czechoslovakia never happened. Chamberlain at least eventually saw the errors of his way, you guys will probably say that the Baltic states, and then the Poles had it coming. Glad France didn't worry about pissing off the English more...
I've said multiple times I think Putin likely will invade. The real question is, why that is the United States', or even NATO's problem. Ukraine isn't a member. Hell, Ukraine isn't a long-standing friend or proxy of the West like Taiwan or Israel, so there's not even the old friendship argument here. NATO isn't obligated or even intended to intervene in all conflicts across the globe. Such an attitude very much leads to the trend of "forever wars" we've suffered from for the last 20+ years. Do I tend to support the Ukrainians over Putin? Sure. But not enough to go fight for them, and certainly not enough to embroil NATO in a potential nuclear war.
Unlike Cezcholosvakia, there is no reason to intervene, and it won't automatically springboard onto the next target. Poland and the Baltic states are NATO members, and the alliance has the mandate to protect their own. While I am of the opinion that the US should leave NATO (because we've subsidized Europe's defense long enough), as long as we're in the alliance, we should keep our end of the bargain. (in contrast to most of the other member states)
Bottom line, Ukraine is a historical Russian vassal, and the current Czar reclaiming what's his should not be surprising. If you want to stop Putin so badly, I'd love to hear a damn good argument as to why it's worth the risk.
I've said multiple times I think Putin likely will invade. The real question is, why that is the United States', or even NATO's problem. Ukraine isn't a member. Hell, Ukraine isn't a long-standing friend or proxy of the West like Taiwan or Israel, so there's not even the old friendship argument here. NATO isn't obligated or even intended to intervene in all conflicts across the globe. Such an attitude very much leads to the trend of "forever wars" we've suffered from for the last 20+ years. Do I tend to support the Ukrainians over Putin? Sure. But not enough to go fight for them, and certainly not enough to embroil NATO in a potential nuclear war.
Unlike Cezcholosvakia, there is no reason to intervene, and it won't automatically springboard onto the next target. Poland and the Baltic states are NATO members, and the alliance has the mandate to protect their own. While I am of the opinion that the US should leave NATO (because we've subsidized Europe's defense long enough), as long as we're in the alliance, we should keep our end of the bargain. (in contrast to most of the other member states)
Bottom line, Ukraine is a historical Russian vassal, and the current Czar reclaiming what's his should not be surprising. If you want to stop Putin so badly, I'd love to hear a damn good argument as to why it's worth the risk.
Hitting the non-existent 'like' button...
It really is funny to me how naïve people are. Have you not figured out yet that WE are not the "good guys"? Have you not been paying attention to what the people running the West have been doing for the past few years? What they've done to people not interested in globalism, or the Great Reset?
There are no more "good guys"! And IF there are, the people really running this country sure as hell aren't them. "They" will do ANYTHING to realize their agenda. Anything. Do you really put it past them, given what we've seen in the past year alone, to not manipulate the narrative to their benefit?
I swear there's one born every day. What a bunch of rubes! Some of you people will believe anything if you're told that it's because of "freedom!" Freedom is just the carrot on the stick. The "America" you grew up believing in was an illusion carefully constructed for you by those who meant to gain your compliance and your cooperation, and even IF it was once real, there's no doubt it isn't anymore. You're kept docile by giving you just enough autonomy to keep you thinking you have a say, and you rail against anyone and anything that tries to wake you to reality. "It's a lot easier to fool someone, than to convince them they have been fooled."
The reality is that the Tree of Liberty has shriveled and died. You refuse to believe it, I get it. All you've held dear and espoused as sacred is dead. A truth too horrible to accept. But the day when the Tree could have been saved "with the blood of patriots and tyrants" has passed long since. It's dead; it just doesn't know it yet. It's not that the tyrants WILL win; it's that they already have. It's just mop up time. There are a few holdouts, and perhaps even a bit of infighting as to WHO will lead the new order, but the day of individual liberty is fast turning into the night of fascist totalitarianism.
What can YOU do about it? You can shine your light in the darkness until you're dead, or they come for that light. Until then, focus on loving and caring for the people around you. You will not change the world if you can not face reality first.
It really is funny to me how naïve people are. Have you not figured out yet that WE are not the "good guys"? Have you not been paying attention to what the people running the West have been doing for the past few years? What they've done to people not interested in globalism, or the Great Reset?
There are no more "good guys"! And IF there are, the people really running this country sure as hell aren't them. "They" will do ANYTHING to realize their agenda. Anything. Do you really put it past them, given what we've seen in the past year alone, to not manipulate the narrative to their benefit?
I swear there's one born every day. What a bunch of rubes! Some of you people will believe anything if you're told that it's because of "freedom!" Freedom is just the carrot on the stick. The "America" you grew up believing in was an illusion carefully constructed for you by those who meant to gain your compliance and your cooperation, and even IF it was once real, there's no doubt it isn't anymore. You're kept docile by giving you just enough autonomy to keep you thinking you have a say, and you rail against anyone and anything that tries to wake you to reality. "It's a lot easier to fool someone, than to convince them they have been fooled."
The reality is that the Tree of Liberty has shriveled and died. You refuse to believe it, I get it. All you've held dear and espoused as sacred is dead. A truth too horrible to accept. But the day when the Tree could have been saved "with the blood of patriots and tyrants" has passed long since. It's dead; it just doesn't know it yet. It's not that the tyrants WILL win; it's that they already have. It's just mop up time. There are a few holdouts, and perhaps even a bit of infighting as to WHO will lead the new order, but the day of individual liberty is fast turning into the night of fascist totalitarianism.
What can YOU do about it? You can shine your light in the darkness until you're dead, or they come for that light. Until then, focus on loving and caring for the people around you. You will not change the world if you can not face reality first.
Editing to rephrase as my question was unkind.
I would be careful assigning value statements not knowing the reasons why people think what they think.
Who are YOU to pass judgment on anyone else, what they think, or how they act?
I think there is a lot of confusion in our society regarding what "passing judgement" actually means. It has turned into speaking the truth about something. "Homosexuality is unnatural" is not a judgmental statement; it's a statement of fact. Same goes for a statement such as, "Cheating on your wife is bad", or "stealing is bad" or for that matter, "believing an illusion is bad." I'm not passing judgement; I'm telling you to wake up. Telling someone they've been fooled, or that they believe a lie, isn't judgmental.
I do find it ironic that your first impulse was to attack the messenger rather than the message though.
BangBang77
02-06-22, 09:50
I believe we are at an inflection point in our nation's history. Similar to the movements in the 1960s, some aspects of today's insanity is worse, yet some pale in comparison. We've re-defined truth, made it subjective and as such, it is no longer truth.
As much as I dislike Sean Penn, he recently stated that American males have been feminized to the point they can no longer function as males. Therein lies a major contributor to why our society is what it is. Boys no longer look to their dad in awe of his strength. His man skills. His ability to fix the car, or the hot water heater, or the lawn mower, or put together a set of bunk beds. Dad no longer has calluses. Dad no longer holds the door for mom. Our sons see all that and more. Our actions as men are more important to the education of our sons than any words we could say. And for the most part, the failure is our own.
Things are crazy for sure, but I hold to core beliefs that the ship has to get crazy before it's righted permanently.
So today, I'm going to pray just like I do every day. I'm going to spend time with my wife. I'm going to talk to my kids, grandkids, and parents on the phone. I'm going to Tinker in my gun room. I'm going to thank God that I was fortunate enough to be born into this country, during the most peaceful and prosperous time in human history. If da Russian invade Ukraine, so be it. Can anyone of us add a single second to our life by worrying about it? Even the sparrows...
I'm going to focus on my sphere of influence and try to ensure my grandsons know the grandfather I knew.
Quit worrying about tomorrow, for tomorrow will take care of itself. Live your life with those you have around you today. Be here now.
I think there is a lot of confusion in our society regarding what "passing judgement" actually means. It has turned into speaking the truth about something. "Homosexuality is unnatural" is not a judgmental statement; it's a statement of fact. Same goes for a statement such as, "Cheating on your wife is bad", or "stealing is bad" or for that matter, "believing an illusion is bad." I'm not passing judgement; I'm telling you to wake up. Telling someone they've been fooled, or that they believe a lie, isn't judgmental.
I do find it ironic that your first impulse was to attack the messenger rather than the message though.
I did acknowledge that the comment was unkind and did choose to edit it. I am not into ad hominem attacks. I find it ironic that you pointed that out, but not my revision.
Be well.
I did acknowledge that the comment was unkind and did choose to edit it. I am not into ad hominem attacks. I find it ironic that you pointed that out, but not my revision.
Be well.Must have started responding before your edit. Didn't see your edit until now. My bad.
Must have started responding responding before your edit. Didn't see your edit until now. My bad.
No worries. Really. My first comment, I wasn't thinking and just had diarrhea of the keyboard. It wasn't 'me' or how I like to respond.
I appreciate your message and I do not necessarily disagree with a lot of it. Your messaging is just different than how I would put it is all.
I believe we are at an inflection point in our nation's history. Similar to the movements in the 1960s, some aspects of today's insanity is worse, yet some pale in comparison. We've re-defined truth, made it subjective and as such, it is no longer truth.
As much as I dislike Sean Penn, he recently stated that American males have been feminized to the point they can no longer function as males. Therein lies a major contributor to why our society is what it is. Boys no longer look to their dad in awe of his strength. His man skills. His ability to fix the car, or the hot water heater, or the lawn mower, or put together a set of bunk beds. Dad no longer has calluses. Dad no longer holds the door for mom. Our sons see all that and more. Our actions as men are more important to the education of our sons than any words we could say. And for the most part, the failure is our own.
Things are crazy for sure, but I hold to core beliefs that the ship has to get crazy before it's righted permanently.
So today, I'm going to pray just like I do every day. I'm going to spend time with my wife. I'm going to talk to my kids, grandkids, and parents on the phone. I'm going to Tinker in my gun room. I'm going to thank God that I was fortunate enough to be born into this country, during the most peaceful and prosperous time in human history. If da Russian invade Ukraine, so be it. Can anyone of us add a single second to our life by worrying about it? Even the sparrows...
I'm going to focus on my sphere of influence and try to ensure my grandsons know the grandfather I knew.
Quit worrying about tomorrow, for tomorrow will take care of itself. Live your life with those you have around you today. Be here now.
Very nicely put indeed. We are here today in the "today" we find ourselves in. Let's resolve to be fully present in it.
No worries. Really. My first comment, I wasn't thinking and just had diarrhea of the keyboard. It wasn't 'me' or how I like to respond.
I appreciate your message and I do not necessarily disagree with a lot of it. Your messaging is just different than how I would put it is all.
Thank you for the kindness. I agree that my message is harsh, but we've become a society where reality is shunned, perhaps more than ever before in history. I don't know. Sometimes harsh truth is better than sweet lies.
Whatever. When Putin invades or launches a coup, you guys will all blame the US/NATO for it. You'all would rather think you're right, than be right; and when you're wrong, you'll say you're right for the wrong reasons. But I'm the crazy one for believing that the guy who keeps on invading his neighbors will do it again, and again. It's like Hitler, Chamberlain, and Czechoslovakia never happened. Chamberlain at least eventually saw the errors of his way, you guys will probably say that the Baltic states, and then the Poles had it coming. Glad France didn't worry about pissing off the English more...
I will blame the USA and NATO, for creating the situation that brought about the invasion. I believe we have passed the point of no return, at this point in time. But it need not have come to this. I think Iraq going into Kuwait, and the Korean war are good examples of people in key positions in the government opening their mouths and saying the wrong thing.
I will blame Putin for the deaths of everyone killed in the war. I also believe that Putin is going to bite off more that he can handle. I think enough Ukrainians have enough AK's to bleed the Russian military just as Finland did to the USSR.
I also believe that Putin is going to bite off more that he can handle. I think enough Ukrainians have enough AK's to bleed the Russian military just as Finland did to the USSR.
It should be pointed out that the USSR won in the end, and got pretty much everything they wanted. They may have bled more than was desirable, but when have Czars or dictators of Russia ever cared about that?
It should be pointed out that the USSR won in the end, and got pretty much everything they wanted. They may have bled more than was desirable, but when have Czars or dictators of Russia ever cared about that?
They didn't win in Finland.
They didn't win in Finland.
Yeah, they did. There is the illusion that the Soviet invasion was rebuffed due to heavy losses. That's true in the sense that the initial invasion was a disaster, but the Red Army reorganized and threw more weight into the fight a few months later, and was able to achieve a breakthrough.
In February 1940, Finland's commander-in-chief, Marshal Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim expressed his pessimism about the military situation, which prompted the government to start peace talks on 29 February, the same day the Red Army started an attack on Viipuri (now Vyborg).
n 6 March, a Finnish delegation, led by Finnish Prime Minister Risto Ryti, travelled to Moscow.[3] During the negotiations, the Red Army broke through the Finnish defence lines around Tali and were close to surrounding Viipuri.
The treaty was signed on the evening of 12 March, Moscow Time, or 1 hour on 13 March, Finnish time. The protocol appended to the treaty stipulated that the fighting should end at noon, Leningrad time (11:00 Finnish time),[inconsistent][4] and the fighting continued until then.[5]
Finnish concessions and territorial losses exceeded those demanded by the Soviets before the war. Finland was forced to cede approximately half of Finnish Karelia (with Finland's industrial centre, including Vyborg/Viipuri (Finland's fourth-largest city) and Käkisalmi; Sortavala and Suojärvi and the whole of Viipuri Bay, with its islands; in total, approximately 9% of its territory) even though large parts were still held by the Finnish army. Military troops and remaining civilians were hastily evacuated to inside the new border; 422,000 Karelians, 12% of Finland's population, lost their homes.
For a quick read on the subject:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War#Soviet_breakthrough_in_February
Treaty that ended the war (source of the quote above):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Peace_Treaty
Granted, I'm using Wiki as a source here, and I apologize for that. Matter of convienience. But, the same info can be found in any book on the Winter War, and most of it is covered in histories of the Eastern Front of WWII.
Yeah, they did. There is the illusion that the Soviet invasion was rebuffed due to heavy losses. That's true in the sense that the initial invasion was a disaster, but the Red Army reorganized and threw more weight into the fight a few months later, and was able to achieve a breakthrough.
For a quick read on the subject:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War#Soviet_breakthrough_in_February
Treaty that ended the war (source of the quote above):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Peace_Treaty
Granted, I'm using Wiki as a source here, and I apologize for that. Matter of convienience. But, the same info can be found in any book on the Winter War, and most of it is covered in histories of the Eastern Front of WWII.
I will reframe my response. Finland did not become a Soviet satellite or Warsaw pact country as a result.
I know all about this, the truths, the myths, the legends, the lies. My dad's family still lives in Ostrobothnia, and although long since passed, many of them fought in the winter war and ww2.
I will reframe my response. Finland did not become a Soviet satellite or Warsaw pact country as a result.
Which was never claimed, or implied. The territory in question fell under Soviet control, which was what they wanted.
Which was never claimed, or implied. The territory in question fell under Soviet control, which was what they wanted.
Thank you for pointing that out....I guess? In the future I will stake such claims with an asterisk so as to denote my posts will go through legal for proper vetting...
But I will ensure my 53 years of Finnish heritage won't interfere with any subjective analysis nor will I make any post without appropriate citations. Do you prefer APA or MLA format?
Which was never claimed, or implied. The territory in question fell under Soviet control, which was what they wanted.Influence vs control. Two different things
Thank you for pointing that out....I guess? In the future I will stake such claims with an asterisk so as to denote my posts will go through legal for proper vetting...
But I will ensure my 53 years of Finnish heritage won't interfere with any subjective analysis nor will I make any post without appropriate citations. Do you prefer APA or MLA format?
When making arguing against what is actually being said, any citation format is acceptable. When arguing against things that aren't being said or implied, and thus muddying the waters (or blatantly making a false claim, such as the Soviets "didn't win in Finland"), I would prefer the Chicago Manual of Style, please.
And personal connections to the topic at hand are great. But personal connections don't really change what was being said. Kinda confused how anyone would think they did. The Finns were forced to give up the territory the Soviets wanted as a result of the Winter War. More of it than originally wanted, in fact. Personal or family histories that illuminate that are wonderful but don't change the black and white facts of what happened.
Snarkiness aside, if you wanted to offer a unique viewpoint, great. Glad to have you in the conversation, sorry if I came off as rude. But your initial reply was inaccurate, the Soviets did win in Finland. They achieved their military and political objectives. They didn't conquer the entire country, sure, but I never said nor implied it, and neither did anyone else, which means your statement is a bit out of place. At the very least, it's a bit of a strawman.
Influence vs control. Two different things
Indeed, but the Soviets had control of the border regions they wanted, and the redrawn border stands to this day. That's far more than mere influence, and while influence over the rest of Finland would be a nice bonus, the Reds seemed to be more than happy to settle for control of the territories in question.
Taking it full circle to the original comparison, if the Russians had a repeat of the Winter War in Ukraine, that would still leave them in control of the territory they actually want to gain, plus a bit more, at the cost of alienating the Ukrainians, but retaining enough influence to ensure they were more or less neutral from that point forward (skipping the Continuation War in this comparison, granted). No matter how many bodies the Ukrainians stack, that's a "Win" for Russia. Worst case scenario, the invasion pushes Ukraine into NATO, which was the direction they're headed in already. Russian history tends to suggest that biting off as much territory as they need for "security reasons" will be a higher motivating factor than retaining slipping influence.
When making arguing against what is actually being said, any citation format is acceptable. When arguing against things that aren't being said or implied, and thus muddying the waters (or blatantly making a false claim, such as the Soviets "didn't win in Finland"), I would prefer the Chicago Manual of Style, please.
And personal connections to the topic at hand are great. But personal connections don't really change what was being said. Kinda confused how anyone would think they did. The Finns were forced to give up the territory the Soviets wanted as a result of the Winter War. More of it than originally wanted, in fact. Personal or family histories that illuminate that are wonderful but don't change the black and white facts of what happened.
Indeed, but the Soviets had control of the border regions they wanted, and the redrawn border stands to this day. That's far more than mere influence, and while influence over the rest of Finland would be a nice bonus, the Reds seemed to be more than happy to settle for control of the territories in question.
Taking it full circle to the original comparison, if the Russians had a repeat of the Winter War in Ukraine, that would still leave them in control of the territory they actually want to gain, plus a bit more, at the cost of alienating the Ukrainians, but retaining enough influence to ensure they were more or less neutral from that point forward (skipping the Continuation War in this comparison, granted). No matter how many bodies the Ukrainians stack, that's a "Win" for Russia. Worst case scenario, the invasion pushes Ukraine into NATO, which was the direction they're headed in already. Russian history tends to suggest that biting off as much territory as they need for "security reasons" will be a higher motivating factor than retaining slipping influence.
Your "win" in Finland and mine are not the same. As evidence by, they were not a Soviet satellite. So no, not a false claim. My definition in your definition are two different definitions.
Your "win" in Finland and mine are not the same. As evidence by, they were not a Soviet satellite. So no, not a false claim. My definition in your definition are two different definitions.
OK, cool. Are you using your own, unique definition, or a real one?
win
verb
1.
be successful or victorious in (a contest or conflict).
2.
acquire or secure as a result of a contest, conflict, bet, or other endeavor.
noun
a successful result in a contest, conflict, bet, or other endeavor; a victory.
Well, it fits all of those definitions, so I apologize for not understanding exactly what you were saying. Is there a definition for the word I should be using?
Legitimately asking now, I assume you were meaning it as in "to win over"? Like this definition?
3a: to make friendly or favorable to oneself or to one's cause —often used with over
won him over with persuasive arguments
b: to induce to accept oneself in marriage
was unable to win the woman he loved
Or are you saying that in order to "win" a military conflict, conditions need to be met other than the stated military and political objectives?
OK, cool. Are you using your own, unique definition, or a real one?
Well, it fits all of those definitions, so I apologize for not understanding exactly what you were saying. Is there a definition for the word I should be using?
Legitimately asking now, I assume you were meaning it as in "to win over"? Like this definition?
Or are you saying that in order to "win" a military conflict, conditions need to be met other than the stated military and political objectives?
Modus vivendi. Be well, friend.
Modus vivendi. Be well, friend.
Fair enough. Good day to you.
Indeed, but the Soviets had control of the border regions they wanted, and the redrawn border stands to this day.
Many, many borders in Eastern Europe, really Europe in general plus Scandinavia changed immediately after world war II.
Finland was no exception. There are Scandinavian borders that are still in dispute between Russia and Norway, etc.
The difference between control and influence is very significant. Warsaw pact was influence, though for some nominally independent countries it was effectively control.
Finland was the most independent, followed by East Germany. They had their own governments and did their own thing. East Germany was much more aligned and integrated with the Soviet Union then Finland though.
That's far more than mere influence, and while influence over the rest of Finland would be a nice bonus, the Reds seemed to be more than happy to settle for control of the territories in question.
Russia has only a fraction of the resources and power that the Soviet Union had. It is a mistake (and I'm told very common) to confuse / conflate the two.
To put it in perspective, the Russian economy is roughly the same as Italy's. No powerhouse even by European standards.
Their power/influences is greater than the size of their economy though, due to the still sizeable military leftover from the Soviet Union and also the West's stupid decisions (including our own administration) to allow Europe to become dependent on Russian fuel.
But the fact remains, it is extremely expensive in terms in terms of human and financial capital to occupy and hold territory.
Putin already got what he wanted in the Crimea peninsula. Most of the people I know who study and analyze this as their real job indicated that if he wanted Ukraine or if there was benefit to taking it, he would have done it then.
Same is true with the other Eastern European countries. (Latvia, etc)
So why would he care?
1) he lives or dies by the perception of power with his people. And if he plays strong Russians appreciate that up to a certain point that they start being deprived.
2) as a lever to drive division within NATO. Germany has extremely short memories, and the majority of the population has no interest or concern about Russia interfering with countries that in their mind used to be part of Russia, and still have a majority Russian speaking population.
In short, anytime he can create dissension/dispute within NATO it's a win for him. It strengthens his power from cultural personality, and in many aspects makes NATO less effective.
He is already succeeded significantly with this in particular with Germany and their new green chancellor.
3) beyond creating dissension, he absolutely is looking for levers to force the concession about Ukraine joining NATO. And any other countries who might be thinking about that. Same for Nordstream two
4) There is absolutely zero risk that Ukraine, Latvia, etc would/could invade Russia even with pre-build up troops. So the idea of a preemptive strike because he's concerned about his border is a bit silly.
He obviously does not want NATO in his backyard, but already has it all over Eastern Europe. And that presence is growing with semi-permanent rotating US presence, along with Western European presence. Primarily France, Italy, etc. So again, provocation to reduce the power/influence/presence of NATO is his version of border concerns.
Worst case scenario, the invasion pushes Ukraine into NATO, which was the direction they're headed in already. Russian history tends to suggest that biting off as much territory as they need for "security reasons" will be a higher motivating factor than retaining slipping influence.
He is walking a fine line. If he pushed into the Ukraine and occupied it it would trigger things that would hurt him more than he would gain.
My gut sense (and hope) is that he's doing this to get a concession led by France and DC to agree not to expand NATO or specifically allow the Ukraine to join. And also allow the pipeline to be turned on, which is extremely important to Germany even though they're not saying that out loud currently.
But you never know, saving face is important to him / them. And he is well known for stirring up activity that isn't quite false flag, but is very close and thus gives him justification for a border incursion.
So the more extreme scenario would be he invades based on some pre-text, but then agrees not to occupy and pulls out in return for getting things he wants.
In all this I have total confidence that Biden will pick the absolute worst approach, egged on by warhawks in DC. Not that I don't think we should support Eastern Europe in specifically Ukraine. But the individual decisions he makes are almost guaranteed to be significantly flawed. Remember Obama's quote. In the others commenting on Biden's long history of being wrong on foreign policy.
I'm influenced in my understanding by active duty folks who have spent a significant amount of time in Eastern European countries working with allies over the last few years. Both in tactical and more strategic roles. One spent over a year within 15 mi of the Russian border working directly with allied forces.
That's their read, and it makes sense to me. They are a bit perplexed at how far Putin is taken it because they don't see what he would gain by actually invading.
The only conjecture is that shutting down pipelines would hurt NATO allies more than it would hurt him short-term. So it may be something he's willing to chance.
All of this is making the Netflix Norwegian series "Occupied" come to mind. While not exactly the same, it is about the same dynamics, political pressures, and in particular German dependence on Russian oil.
I'm going to rewatch it, both because it was good and because it's relevant. Last time I had to do subtitles. But I recently watched another Norwegian series "Beforeigners" and they had English audio tracks for modern Norwegian.
Blood was shed on Friday, 2 Ukrainian soldiers were killed by pro Russian militias in Donbas. But this is kind of a normal thing, this brings the number of dead Ukrainian soldiers to 36 since the first of the year.
WillieThom
02-14-22, 18:52
Is it true? Did it happen? Is this just Putin looking for another excuse to invade? Is this the ‘Russian False Flag’ we’ve been hearing so much about?
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44287/russia-doubles-down-on-claims-a-u-s-submarine-was-in-its-waters-despite-denial
Also… because my imagination likes to run wild and I’m a fan of Tom Clancy… could a Seal Delivery Vehicle full of SEALs or other sooper-dooper secret-squirrel types have been launched from this submarine? Special Reconnaissance? Sabotage? Assassination attempt on Putin?
No? Yes? ….maybe?
Is it true? Did it happen? Is this just Putin looking for another excuse to invade? Is this the ‘Russian False Flag’ we’ve been hearing so much about?
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44287/russia-doubles-down-on-claims-a-u-s-submarine-was-in-its-waters-despite-denial
Also… because my imagination likes to run wild and I’m a fan of Tom Clancy… could a Seal Delivery Vehicle full of SEALs or other sooper-dooper secret-squirrel types have been launched from this submarine? Special Reconnaissance? Sabotage? Assassination attempt on Putin?
No? Yes? ….maybe?We've been running each other's subs off from territorial waters for a while. I don't see this as even close to being sufficient pretext for attack.
Breitbart reporting Russians moving off the border, nothing to see here.
Breitbart reporting Russians moving off the border, nothing to see here.
They never were 'on the border'.
They were using their normal existing training grounds that have been near that area for a very long time.
Here we go...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/putin-orders-troops-to-eastern-ukraine-after-formally-recognizing-breakaway-regions/ar-AAU7Uva?ocid=uxbndlbing
Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered troops into Ukraine on Monday, just hours after he formally recognized the independence of two Moscow-backed breakaway regions in the eastern part of the country.
The order will likely be seen as another escalation of the conflict between Ukraine and Russia, on a day when tensions rose as Putin moved forward with the formal recognition of two breakaway regions and delivered a lengthy speech about the relationship between the two nations.
Putin framed the troop movement as a “peacekeeping” effort in both regions. His decision to recognize both regions was seen by the United States and its European allies as a dramatic provocation and part of a pretext to invade Ukraine and led to the U.S. and European Union announcing sanctions targeting the two areas.
Many experts believed Moscow’s formal recognition would effectively scuttle a previous ceasefire agreement that some Western allies hoped could provide a route out of the crisis.
In a wide-ranging televised speech Monday evening, Putin described Ukraine as a historical part of Russia that was illegitimately taken from Moscow and is now run by a “puppet regime” controlled by the U.S. and the West.
Russia misses poor Ukraine. He is sorry about his long history of beating and using her. Hes not mad anymore and just want her to come back in the trailer.
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Here we go...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/putin-orders-troops-to-eastern-ukraine-after-formally-recognizing-breakaway-regions/ar-AAU7Uva?ocid=uxbndlbing
Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered troops into Ukraine on Monday, just hours after he formally recognized the independence of two Moscow-backed breakaway regions in the eastern part of the country.
The order will likely be seen as another escalation of the conflict between Ukraine and Russia, on a day when tensions rose as Putin moved forward with the formal recognition of two breakaway regions and delivered a lengthy speech about the relationship between the two nations.
Putin framed the troop movement as a “peacekeeping” effort in both regions. His decision to recognize both regions was seen by the United States and its European allies as a dramatic provocation and part of a pretext to invade Ukraine and led to the U.S. and European Union announcing sanctions targeting the two areas.
Many experts believed Moscow’s formal recognition would effectively scuttle a previous ceasefire agreement that some Western allies hoped could provide a route out of the crisis.
In a wide-ranging televised speech Monday evening, Putin described Ukraine as a historical part of Russia that was illegitimately taken from Moscow and is now run by a “puppet regime” controlled by the U.S. and the West.
Impossible. DG23 said so.
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Many experts believed Moscow’s formal recognition would effectively scuttle a previous ceasefire agreement that some Western allies hoped could provide a route out of the crisis.
Ukraine has never really held to the Minsk agreements made back in 2014-2015 and the west in particular has never really even tried to get them to abide by them.
Now they will have to abide by it (and stop shelling Donetsk and Lugansk for one thing) or else it will be their asses.
Keep in mind now that US-backed nationalists overthrew the democratically elected government in Kiev back then and started all of this crap... Good ole American 'regime change'! Cause we know best and we said so! :)
Donetsk and Lugansk were not having any of that garbage and declared independence from Ukraine in 2014. They did this weird thing called 'voting' and they overwhelmingly voted to join with Russia. Moscow declined at that time and insisted that their conflict was an internal Ukrainian matter.
We screwed up trying to play our 'regime change' crap in Russia's freakin back yard. Like they did in Syria with respect to us trying to overthrow and replace Assad - Russia is finally going to step in and stop the forceful takeover of the people that do not want to be taken over by the west.
Impossible. DG23 said so.
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I know American history.
You know what American media feeds you about it...
I know American history.
You know what American media feeds you about it...
Its comical that you think whatever I know about the situation comes from American media. But I wasn't expecting you to admit you were wrong so I guess that remark was the next best thing.
Ukraine has never really held to the Minsk agreements made back in 2014-2015 and the west in particular has never really even tried to get them to abide by them.
Now they will have to abide by it (and stop shelling Donetsk and Lugansk for one thing) or else it will be their asses.
Keep in mind now that US-backed nationalists overthrew the democratically elected government in Kiev back then and started all of this crap... Good ole American 'regime change'! Cause we know best and we said so! :)
Donetsk and Lugansk were not having any of that garbage and declared independence from Ukraine in 2014. They did this weird thing called 'voting' and they overwhelmingly voted to join with Russia. Moscow declined at that time and insisted that their conflict was an internal Ukrainian matter.
We screwed up trying to play our 'regime change' crap in Russia's freakin back yard. Like they did in Syria with respect to us trying to overthrow and replace Assad - Russia is finally going to step in and stop the forceful takeover of the people that do not want to be taken over by the west.You're not wrong.
That darn history kinda gets in the way though. Hard to have the narrative we want with all those pesky facts floating around. We need a Ministry of Truth, like in Orwell's 1984, that will conveniently change all the old news stories to match what Big Brother is claiming today.
Its comical that you think whatever I know about the situation comes from American media. But I wasn't expecting you to admit you were wrong so I guess that remark was the next best thing.
Wrong about what?
:)
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-24-22, 00:21
So, been gone from this thread to avoid the stupid. Welcome to the invasion.
Dumb-asses.
Ukraine has never really held to the Minsk agreements made back in 2014-2015 and the west in particular has never really even tried to get them to abide by them.
Now they will have to abide by it (and stop shelling Donetsk and Lugansk for one thing) or else it will be their asses.
Keep in mind now that US-backed nationalists overthrew the democratically elected government in Kiev back then and started all of this crap... Good ole American 'regime change'! Cause we know best and we said so! :)
Donetsk and Lugansk were not having any of that garbage and declared independence from Ukraine in 2014. They did this weird thing called 'voting' and they overwhelmingly voted to join with Russia. Moscow declined at that time and insisted that their conflict was an internal Ukrainian matter.
We screwed up trying to play our 'regime change' crap in Russia's freakin back yard. Like they did in Syria with respect to us trying to overthrow and replace Assad - Russia is finally going to step in and stop the forceful takeover of the people that do not want to be taken over by the west.
Too many Americans conveniently choose not to face the facts. Same in Europe. This is how nations are easily led into wars.
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Here we go...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/putin-orders-troops-to-eastern-ukraine-after-formally-recognizing-breakaway-regions/ar-AAU7Uva?ocid=uxbndlbing
Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered troops into Ukraine on Monday, just hours after he formally recognized the independence of two Moscow-backed breakaway regions in the eastern part of the country.
The order will likely be seen as another escalation of the conflict between Ukraine and Russia, on a day when tensions rose as Putin moved forward with the formal recognition of two breakaway regions and delivered a lengthy speech about the relationship between the two nations.
Putin framed the troop movement as a “peacekeeping” effort in both regions. His decision to recognize both regions was seen by the United States and its European allies as a dramatic provocation and part of a pretext to invade Ukraine and led to the U.S. and European Union announcing sanctions targeting the two areas.
Many experts believed Moscow’s formal recognition would effectively scuttle a previous ceasefire agreement that some Western allies hoped could provide a route out of the crisis.
In a wide-ranging televised speech Monday evening, Putin described Ukraine as a historical part of Russia that was illegitimately taken from Moscow and is now run by a “puppet regime” controlled by the U.S. and the West.
Well, Zelensky started mouthing off about “we will make nuclear weapons”…
He earned it.
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Well, Zelensky started mouthing off about “we will make nuclear weapons”…
He earned it.
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Wow. Ok.
So we've gone from "Never gonna happen" and now we are doing "They were asking for it."
Unreal some of the comments on this forum.
Well, Zelensky started mouthing off about “we will make nuclear weapons”…
He earned it.
If Ukraine didn't get fooled by the USA, they still would have nukes and would not be at war right now,
Well, I have to admit that I really didn't think Putin would go this far. Clearly, I misanalysed the situation, but to be fair I didn't dig particularly deeply, and I just don't trust anything the MSM or their "experts" say.
He must really be desperate and sees the short and mid term ramifications of this to be worth the long term benefits, assuming I'm not giving him too much credit. Or this is just part of the globalists' end game and designed as a pretext to suck the US into something that will finally realize their goal of the destruction of our nation. Not sure at this point.
Well, I have to admit that I really didn't think Putin would go this far. Clearly, I misanalysed the situation, but to be fair I didn't dig particularly deeply, and I just don't trust anything the MSM or their "experts" say.
I am in shock at how stupid the MSM and every political type has been on Ukraine and how to hurt Putin. A misstep could turn the USA into a hot mess, that would take decades to undo if ever. But you hear these idiots talk about the USA hitting Russia with cyber attacks or throwing Russia out of SWIFT. Sure hit Russia with both of these and then Russia hits the USA with cyber in ways the majority of people don't have an idea of what Russia can do. Second if we throw Russia out of SWIFT. Then China and Russia with help of a few other nations build an alternative to SWIFT and the dollar crashes
I am in shock at how stupid the MSM and every political type has been on Ukraine and how to hurt Putin. A misstep could turn the USA into a hot mess, that would take decades to undo if ever. But you hear these idiots talk about the USA hitting Russia with cyber attacks or throwing Russia out of SWIFT. Sure hit Russia with both of these and then Russia hits the USA with cyber in ways the majority of people don't have an idea of what Russia can do. Second if we throw Russia out of SWIFT. Then China and Russia with help of a few other nations build an alternative to SWIFT and the dollar crashes
From people who could only manage a journalism degree and have been promoting [worse than] mediocrity based solely on race / gender for 20 years? Lower your bar, lower it really low.
They certainly aren't getting any bright ideas from the XiDen administration.
I am in shock at how stupid the MSM and every political type has been on Ukraine and how to hurt Putin. A misstep could turn the USA into a hot mess, that would take decades to undo if ever. But you hear these idiots talk about the USA hitting Russia with cyber attacks or throwing Russia out of SWIFT. Sure hit Russia with both of these and then Russia hits the USA with cyber in ways the majority of people don't have an idea of what Russia can do. Second if we throw Russia out of SWIFT. Then China and Russia with help of a few other nations build an alternative to SWIFT and the dollar crashes
Honestly, Yoni, with the way they've been taking this country and it's military for the past couple of decades, I've really started to believe that their intention IS the destruction of America. Whether that destruction is soft, or hard, I cannot say. So, if they were to engage the Russians in the clumsy manner you describe, it wouldn't surprise me.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-25-22, 07:23
If Ukraine didn't get fooled by the USA, they still would have nukes and would not be at war right now,
Ding, ding, ding. Kind of interesting if people mention the Minsk accords but don’t mention that we were obligated to defend the territorial integrity of Ukraine for that nuclear deal. Hell, the Russians were too.
Well, I have to admit that I really didn't think Putin would go this far. Clearly, I misanalysed the situation, but to be fair I didn't dig particularly deeply, and I just don't trust anything the MSM or their "experts" say.
He must really be desperate and sees the short and mid term ramifications of this to be worth the long term benefits, assuming I'm not giving him too much credit. Or this is just part of the globalists' end game and designed as a pretext to suck the US into something that will finally realize their goal of the destruction of our nation. Not sure at this point.
Putin was always going to take Ukraine. At the very least he was going to topple the government. This outcome is all on Putin. Blaming NATO for this really doesn’t understand Putin‘s plans. He was going to do this one way or the other. It is inevitable.
What worries me is that time is not on Putin‘s side. I could see him cleaning this up pretty fast and then this summer even doing false flags in the Baltic to take them this year too.
Putin was always going to take Ukraine. At the very least he was going to topple the government. This outcome is all on Putin. Blaming NATO for this really doesn’t understand Putin‘s plans. He was going to do this one way or the other. It is inevitable.
I am not a fan of the binary assignment of blame. I think Putin is to blame. So is the US, NATO, and the west. I think we all have earned a slice of this shit pie.
Ding, ding, ding. Kind of interesting if people mention the Minsk accords but don’t mention that we were obligated to defend the territorial integrity of Ukraine for that nuclear deal. Hell, the Russians were too.
Putin was always going to take Ukraine. At the very least he was going to topple the government. This outcome is all on Putin. Blaming NATO for this really doesn’t understand Putin‘s plans. He was going to do this one way or the other. It is inevitable.
What worries me is that time is not on Putin‘s side. I could see him cleaning this up pretty fast and then this summer even doing false flags in the Baltic to take them this year too.
Exactly. I think that once Putin feels he has the ball rolling, he's not going to stop. Best bet is to grind things to a halt as much as possible, and bleed him. Probably won't work, but without outright NATO intervention, that's the only option left.
Honestly, Yoni, with the way they've been taking this country and it's military for the past couple of decades, I've really started to believe that their intention IS the destruction of America. Whether that destruction is soft, or hard, I cannot say. So, if they were to engage the Russians in the clumsy manner you describe, it wouldn't surprise me.
Do not think for a second that the USA is not in the middle of a Marxist Revolution. We are 100% in a Marxist Revolution.
A few things must happen to stage a successful revolution by g-dless commies.
1. Chaos this breaks down the faith of the people in the institution of government. This has nothing to do with who is in government. The distrust is in the form of government.
2. Destroy the middle class. A vibrant middle class will never go for Marxist BS, the poor and the rich go for it but not the middle class. But a man that used to be middle class and today he can't feed his children will maybe buy into it for food for his kids.
3. Disarm the people.
The Marxist party of the USA AKA Democrats are working to do all of the above. I almost hope the Marxist don't lose in November. If they lose they will go underground and we will never rid ourselves of the cancer. If they win, maybe things will get so bad American patriots will start carrying sunflower seeds to hand out to the Marxist.
If Ukraine didn't get fooled by the USA, they still would have nukes and would not be at war right now,
Now, now, pay no mind to that corrupt government behind the curtain!
I've said from the beginning that this is Biden wagging the dog. He had every tool at his disposal to prevent this from happening (at least for now) and he not only didn't use them, he did the exact opposite. It's just like Trudeau having every option on the table with the truckers, and he went full scale authoritarian tyrant as if it was always the only option.
These politicians have an AGENDA to serve and they are not going to let dead Ukrainians stop them from pursuing it. We know how they feel about us. We know how they feel about the Constitution. We know how they feel about globalism. We know how they feel about what I like to call "pressurized migration". But wag the dog with Russia and suddenly it's all "USA! USA! USA! If you don't support US & NATO intervention in Ukraine you're a goddamned Russian leg humper!!! :mad:"
This conflict is so far from black and white it's ridiculous. We're the woman in the red dress in The Matrix and Ukraine was Neo. Suddenly he turns back around and Agent Putin has a Deagle in his face. That doesn't make the Agent the good guy, but we were the shiny bauble that got Ukraine firmly caught in the trap.
I am in shock at how stupid the MSM and every political type has been on Ukraine and how to hurt Putin. A misstep could turn the USA into a hot mess, that would take decades to undo if ever. But you hear these idiots talk about the USA hitting Russia with cyber attacks or throwing Russia out of SWIFT. Sure hit Russia with both of these and then Russia hits the USA with cyber in ways the majority of people don't have an idea of what Russia can do. Second if we throw Russia out of SWIFT. Then China and Russia with help of a few other nations build an alternative to SWIFT and the dollar crashes
What about Russia's 2019 position that removing Russia from SWIFT is tantamount to a declaration of war? It's like some people refuse to listen when someone tells you what they are. :rolleyes:
If Ukraine didn't get fooled by the USA, they still would have nukes and would not be at war right now,
If they didn’t get fooled by the USA guess what?
They’d still be part of Russia.
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Wow. Ok.
So we've gone from "Never gonna happen" and now we are doing "They were asking for it."
Unreal some of the comments on this forum.
You still don’t study history and geopolitics. I thought after the war with the Georgians you’d figure it out. You haven’t.
All of you were saying the plan was to take Ukraine but none of you could address WHY. You still cannot despite all the interviews floating on YouTube, despite the books written by Brzezinski and Engdahl and who knows else.
All you’ll be able to do is respond if you sit back and wait for the lying mainstream media to fill your head with garbage.
I won’t even try to fill you in. You’re a “hardliner” who feels there’s no way I could know something you don’t.
Just go grab your rifle and a ticket to Poland. You can March from there to free Kiev.
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You still don’t study history and geopolitics. I thought after the war with the Georgians you’d figure it out. You haven’t.
All of you were saying the plan was to take Ukraine but none of you could address WHY. You still cannot despite all the interviews floating on YouTube, despite the books written by Brzezinski and Engdahl and who knows else.
All you’ll be able to do is respond if you sit back and wait for the lying mainstream media to fill your head with garbage.
I won’t even try to fill you in. You’re a “hardliner” who feels there’s no way I could know something you don’t.
Just go grab your rifle and a ticket to Poland. You can March from there to free Kiev.
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Not sure WTF you are talking about.
Same reason he annexed the Crimea, he is snatching up territory because he can.
Georgia didn't "ask for it", they got invaded.
Crimea didn't "ask for it", they got invaded.
And Ukraine did NOTHING to "ask for it", they are being invaded.
WTF are you talking about?
Not sure WTF you are talking about.
Same reason he annexed the Crimea, he is snatching up territory because he can.
Georgia didn't "ask for it", they got invaded.
Crimea didn't "ask for it", they got invaded.
And Ukraine did NOTHING to "ask for it", they are being invaded.
WTF are you talking about?
You prove my suspicions quite valid.
Thanks.
[emoji1787][emoji23][emoji28][emoji38]
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Didn't Crimea have a referendum, and because it's filled with mostly ethnic Russians, and has historically been part of Russia vote to separate from the Ukraine? I keep hearing that Crimea was annexed, but that's not how I remember reading about what happened at the time.
Didn't Crimea have a referendum, and because it's filled with mostly ethnic Russians, and has historically been part of Russia vote to separate from the Ukraine? I keep hearing that Crimea was annexed, but that's not how I remember reading about what happened at the time.
Rooskies invaded, announced "independence", then the Rooskies held (and counted) the election to be annexed into Russia.
Big surprise, they won.
You prove my suspicions quite valid.
Thanks.
[emoji1787][emoji23][emoji28][emoji38]
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You are consistent as well.
Putin has talked for a long time about rebuilding lost Soviet territory. And whenever we've had a weak president, he knows he's free to add a new piece.
You can think otherwise if you wish. You can think you know more about history and geopolitics if you wish. But either start talking about what you know or stop talking.
Rooskies invaded, announced "independence", then the Rooskies held (and counted) the election to be annexed into Russia.
Big surprise, they won.Sounds about right.
Getting kinda tired of "rooskie", but "s#!t eating, commie scum" is kinda long and only 2/3 accurate now. Anybody got a good derogatory term for Russians?
Diamondback
02-25-22, 23:03
Getting kinda tired of "rooskie", but "s#!t eating, commie scum" is kinda long and only 2/3 accurate now. Anybody got a good derogatory term for Russians?
Vodkashits?
WillieThom
02-26-22, 01:56
You are consistent as well.
Putin has talked for a long time about rebuilding lost Soviet territory. And whenever we've had a weak president, he knows he's free to add a new piece.
You can think otherwise if you wish. You can think you know more about history and geopolitics if you wish. But either start talking about what you know or stop talking.
But being ultra-vague with references is so much more clever and fun when pretending to be smarter than everyone else because, well, you wouldn’t understand it anyway… 😂
Vodkashits?
Not bad, but it doesn't quite roll off the tounge.
But being ultra-vague with references is so much more clever and fun when pretending to be smarter than everyone else because, well, you wouldn’t understand it anyway… 😂
Seriously. It's always amusing when folks want to act like they're the only one "in the know" but won't actually ever explain "what they know." Most likely because they've heard it explained once or twice, don't really understand it, but think it sounded deep and insightful. Unable to properly explain it themselves, they vauguely reference it and hope that they sound as meaningful as the original source. Add in a bit of "I know a secret, that makes me better" mentality, and you have a lot of guys on this forum right now.
Bottom line people, explain your freaking points and cite freaking sources!
[End Rant]
Until I can find something better, imma go with "Mudak" for now.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mudak
You are consistent as well.
Putin has talked for a long time about rebuilding lost Soviet territory. And whenever we've had a weak president, he knows he's free to add a new piece.
You can think otherwise if you wish. You can think you know more about history and geopolitics if you wish. But either start talking about what you know or stop talking.
No, he hasn’t.
He has warned us for nearly thirty years about encroaching into Russia’s sphere of influence. There’s a metric shit ton of videos and articles but… you don’t follow any of it closely. So here we are.
Lie to yourself; hopefully you’ll convince yourself - if that’s even possible.
For your troubles I’ll leave you a video. I’m trying to get confirmation on the ICBM movement. You… go watch basketball.
I’ll post what I find/learn.
https://youtu.be/oGQSjDIVQ-Y
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No, he hasn’t.
He has warned us for nearly thirty years about encroaching into Russia’s sphere of influence. There’s a metric shit ton of videos and articles but… you don’t follow any of it closely. So here we are.
Lie to yourself; hopefully you’ll convince yourself - if that’s even possible.
For your troubles I’ll leave you a video. I’m trying to get confirmation on the ICBM movement. You… go watch basketball.
I’ll post what I find/learn.
https://youtu.be/oGQSjDIVQ-Y
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I watched the video. Does it strike you as odd that missiles with a 7000 mile range would need to be moved close to the border? It does me. Unless it's just saber rattling by Putin, there's no tactical reason that I can discern for doing it. He's exposing the missiles to attack with no advantage to him.
No, he hasn’t.
He has warned us for nearly thirty years about encroaching into Russia’s sphere of influence. There’s a metric shit ton of videos and articles but… you don’t follow any of it closely. So here we are.
Lie to yourself; hopefully you’ll convince yourself - if that’s even possible.
For your troubles I’ll leave you a video. I’m trying to get confirmation on the ICBM movement. You… go watch basketball.
I’ll post what I find/learn.
https://youtu.be/oGQSjDIVQ-Y
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So Ukraine isn't a sovereign country? They are encroaching on Russia's "sphere of influence"?
Ok, that's pretty much all I need to know thanks.
We should invade and occupy Canada and Mexico, after all they are "encroaching on our sphere of influence."
So Ukraine isn't a sovereign country? They are encroaching on Russia's "sphere of influence"?
Ok, that's pretty much all I need to know thanks.
We should invade and occupy Canada and Mexico, after all they are "encroaching on our sphere of influence."
Your terms are acceptable. ;)
So Ukraine isn't a sovereign country? They are encroaching on Russia's "sphere of influence"?
Ok, that's pretty much all I need to know thanks.
We should invade and occupy Canada and Mexico, after all they are "encroaching on our sphere of influence."
You don't get it man. The Ukrainians have been picking their country up and moving it closer. Encroaching little by little when no one was looking. :p
I watched the video. Does it strike you as odd that missiles with a 7000 mile range would need to be moved close to the border? It does me. Unless it's just saber rattling by Putin, there's no tactical reason that I can discern for doing it. He's exposing the missiles to attack with no advantage to him.
It does have some value. Less warning and reaction time, amongst other things.
But its mostly optics. Kinda like "Look how serious I am. I'm firing up my nuclear toys. These babies still run and I found the keys."
It does have some value. Less warning and reaction time, amongst other things.
But its mostly optics. Kinda like "Look how serious I am. I'm firing up my nuclear toys. These babies still run and I found the keys."
Yeah, agreed.
I watched the video. Does it strike you as odd that missiles with a 7000 mile range would need to be moved close to the border? It does me. Unless it's just saber rattling by Putin, there's no tactical reason that I can discern for doing it. He's exposing the missiles to attack with no advantage to him.
I think they used file footage. Those things can fire from wherever they were sitting. I’m aware of that.
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It does have some value. Less warning and reaction time, amongst other things.
But its mostly optics. Kinda like "Look how serious I am. I'm firing up my nuclear toys. These babies still run and I found the keys."
Non need to move the ICBMs. The tactical nukes are probably being moved closer. That would make more sense.
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You don't get it man. The Ukrainians have been picking their country up and moving it closer. Encroaching little by little when no one was looking. :p
So this begs the question, in 1939 when Russia divided Poland with Hitler, since they moved closer to Germany's "sphere of influence"...were the Russians just asking for it and the Germans simply protecting their traditional territories?
And how is Ukraine within the Russian "sphere of influence" after 1994 when we pledged to provide for their national security IF they relinquished their nuclear arsenal, which they did. Seems to me in 1994 they came directly under the US and NATOs "sphere of influence" by agreement. Probably not the best deal Ukraine ever made in hindsight. Course the US President then was Slick Willy so Ukraine wasn't the only thing screwed by the Clintons.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-27-22, 06:54
No, he hasn’t.
He has warned us for nearly thirty years about encroaching into Russia’s sphere of influence. There’s a metric shit ton of videos and articles but… you don’t follow any of it closely. So here we are.
Lie to yourself; hopefully you’ll convince yourself - if that’s even possible.
For your troubles I’ll leave you a video. I’m trying to get confirmation on the ICBM movement. You… go watch basketball.
I’ll post what I find/learn.
https://youtu.be/oGQSjDIVQ-Y
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So this begs the question, in 1939 when Russia divided Poland with Hitler, since they moved closer to Germany's "sphere of influence"...were the Russians just asking for it and the Germans simply protecting their traditional territories?
And how is Ukraine within the Russian "sphere of influence" after 1994 when we pledged to provide for their national security IF they relinquished their nuclear arsenal, which they did. Seems to me in 1994 they came directly under the US and NATOs "sphere of influence" by agreement. Probably not the best deal Ukraine ever made in hindsight. Course the US President then was Slick Willy so Ukraine wasn't the only thing screwed by the Clintons.
Uhm, who lost the Cold War, but not even a small margin?
It is interesting to look at PPP GDP numbers. Putin in invading about the only country in Europe with a lower per capita GDP. The 'best' land grab since the Jews got the only land in the middle east with out oil.... ;). Russia was going to have a hard time getting the Baltic states to want to get back into the Sphere, the baltics have higher GDPs per capita than Russia. Russia takes Belarus and Ukraine for the economic equivalent of the three stooges.
The complete irony(?) that people use the argument that Putin has been warning us for 30 years that he is going to attack his neighbors is somehow a rational reason not to extend security agreements to those threatened states is kind of.... rich? Lacking in any kind of strategic, logical, economic, moral, or any kind of sense? Dominate and decimate countries for 50 years, and then wonder why they might take military and political actions to make sure that doesn't happen again. Sure, that doesn't make any sense.
And stop with the 'THis isn't the SOviet Union" stupidity. Tsarist Russia, The Soviets, Putin oligarchy... it's all concentrated power in the Kremlin focused on subjugating the Russian people for the gain of a few while dominating their the neighbors in an empire by different names. Call it the "Kremlin" for continuity and commonality. I don't hate Russian people, I hate the leadership based in the Kremlin that has tried the empire game for what, 300 years+.
We are a threat to Russia? Uhm, no. Are we a threat to Putin, Uhm.... YEs. He's an autocratic leader that kills domestic and international opponents to keep his kleptocratic oligarchy limping along. Not only did he and his KGB bro's ruin the Soviet Union, they then doubled down and dumb and ran the Neo-Russian economy into the ground. They have a worse standard of living than Poland.
The line that Biden should use is that history is littered with tyrants who abused their own people, attacked their neighbors and ended up dead.
We 'forced' Putin into this??? If he hadn't screwed up the post Cold-War conversion of his economy, he wouldn't be in this situation. And we are supposed to let him rape his neighbors again, for the second time in some of these people's lifetimes because he can't manage an economy. Sure, that makes sense.
That he would threaten the world with nuclear war if he doesn't get to destroy his neighbors puts him in a class beyond Hitler. That is pure Mo-Fo evil, like the most evil thing that any leader has ever uttered. Ben Shapiro says that Putin isn't crazy, uhm- yes he is. Threatening nuclear war if you get in the way of his offensive war- that's crazy. Either let him take over your country, or he'll nuke that country... This is the argument for getting you back into his sphere?
Saying that Putin has any kind of moral or strategic rationale for what he is doing is.. I don't know what. Silly? Puzzling? Unhinged from reality? I don't care what he thinks, or if he feels wronged. You think he is going to act any better after he gets Ukraine? Satiated after he gets back East Germany?
The guy is bat-crap crazy. It's only a matter of time before someone Stauffenberg's him.
I have said in the lead up to the war, it could have been avoided.
It wasn't now we have a war.
I still want the USA to respond in a manor to hurt Putin and bring the war to an end.
I want a Berlin style airlift into countries that border Ukraine that are part of NATO. Then let non USA PMC's bring the supplies in.
Putin just put his nuclear forces on alert. He has completely lost it. It is time for a General to drop his ass.
You don't get it man. The Ukrainians have been picking their country up and moving it closer. Encroaching little by little when no one was looking. :p
Those bastards!
More seriously, nuclear saber-rattling is to be expected. It's the card that has "kept the peace" since 1945, and was a staple of East-West relations throughout the Cold War. We shouldn't at all be surprised that Putin is pulling it out now. Brinkmanship is one thing, actually using them is another. That said, if Putin thought his grip on power was slipping I don't doubt he would use them. Better to rule over radioactive wasteland than not rule at all. The real question is how we stop the invasion while saving Putin enough face that he can continue his reign (until the inevitable coup), and thus kick the can down the road a bit.
Putin has to keep showing that he has that nuclear wild card up his sleeve. It's all he's got.
If this invasion has shown anything, it has shown that the Russian military is crap.
I'm not talking about the speed of the invasion. To me it is a fairly reasonable pace. I mean the failure to exert air superiority and the readily apparent logistical and CC breakdown. It's a clusterfuq.
This level of ability to project force, NEXT DOOR to you, against a vastly "inferior" force is a shitshow.
That column, stopped because they are low on fuel, paints the picture. Piss poor logistics and control. Spread out to reduce air vulnerability, but unable to provide mutual support. No control of their envelope. They are lucky as hell that farmer in the truck wasn't just pulling covert recon for a bunch of his neighbors in the woods.
No wonder Putin is reminding us he's got nukes. He's showing his ass to the world. He's bent over and bare assed. If it wasn't for the nukes, and the weakness of the west, he'd be getting topped right now.
So this begs the question, in 1939 when Russia divided Poland with Hitler, since they moved closer to Germany's "sphere of influence"...were the Russians just asking for it and the Germans simply protecting their traditional territories?
And how is Ukraine within the Russian "sphere of influence" after 1994 when we pledged to provide for their national security IF they relinquished their nuclear arsenal, which they did. Seems to me in 1994 they came directly under the US and NATOs "sphere of influence" by agreement. Probably not the best deal Ukraine ever made in hindsight. Course the US President then was Slick Willy so Ukraine wasn't the only thing screwed by the Clintons.
"I never promised security to that country, the Ukraine. Not once, ever"
ETA: -Zalenskyy holds up "blue dress" from Budapest.
Uhm, who lost the Cold War, but not even a small margin?
It is interesting to look at PPP GDP numbers. Putin in invading about the only country in Europe with a lower per capita GDP. The 'best' land grab since the Jews got the only land in the middle east with out oil.... ;). Russia was going to have a hard time getting the Baltic states to want to get back into the Sphere, the baltics have higher GDPs per capita than Russia. Russia takes Belarus and Ukraine for the economic equivalent of the three stooges.
The complete irony(?) that people use the argument that Putin has been warning us for 30 years that he is going to attack his neighbors is somehow a rational reason not to extend security agreements to those threatened states is kind of.... rich? Lacking in any kind of strategic, logical, economic, moral, or any kind of sense? Dominate and decimate countries for 50 years, and then wonder why they might take military and political actions to make sure that doesn't happen again. Sure, that doesn't make any sense.
And stop with the 'THis isn't the SOviet Union" stupidity. Tsarist Russia, The Soviets, Putin oligarchy... it's all concentrated power in the Kremlin focused on subjugating the Russian people for the gain of a few while dominating their the neighbors in an empire by different names. Call it the "Kremlin" for continuity and commonality. I don't hate Russian people, I hate the leadership based in the Kremlin that has tried the empire game for what, 300 years+.
We are a threat to Russia? Uhm, no. Are we a threat to Putin, Uhm.... YEs. He's an autocratic leader that kills domestic and international opponents to keep his kleptocratic oligarchy limping along. Not only did he and his KGB bro's ruin the Soviet Union, they then doubled down and dumb and ran the Neo-Russian economy into the ground. They have a worse standard of living than Poland.
The line that Biden should use is that history is littered with tyrants who abused their own people, attacked their neighbors and ended up dead.
We 'forced' Putin into this??? If he hadn't screwed up the post Cold-War conversion of his economy, he wouldn't be in this situation. And we are supposed to let him rape his neighbors again, for the second time in some of these people's lifetimes because he can't manage an economy. Sure, that makes sense.
That he would threaten the world with nuclear war if he doesn't get to destroy his neighbors puts him in a class beyond Hitler. That is pure Mo-Fo evil, like the most evil thing that any leader has ever uttered. Ben Shapiro says that Putin isn't crazy, uhm- yes he is. Threatening nuclear war if you get in the way of his offensive war- that's crazy. Either let him take over your country, or he'll nuke that country... This is the argument for getting you back into his sphere?
Saying that Putin has any kind of moral or strategic rationale for what he is doing is.. I don't know what. Silly? Puzzling? Unhinged from reality? I don't care what he thinks, or if he feels wronged. You think he is going to act any better after he gets Ukraine? Satiated after he gets back East Germany?
The guy is bat-crap crazy. It's only a matter of time before someone Stauffenberg's him.
Wasn't Ukraine the "bread basket" of the Soviet Union? I remember in the 80s when the Russians had to import grain from the US after a bad harvest. Might not be oil rich, but there are resources there. But I think it's also symbolic, Putin wants to go down in the history books as the guy who rebuilt the Russian Empire.
Of course at this stage of the game it's starting to look like maybe he went a bridge too far. If this event results in him getting retired at home, that would be pretty ironic.
Also I'm not suggesting Putin is playing any kind of Master Level 3D Global Chess, in fact he's actually quite predictable. He does what he does when he thinks he can get away with it. He's done it before, there is a pattern. He presents himself as a capable and powerful leader who is restoring Russia to glory status and he's trying to bring that image to reality.
Putin has to keep showing that he has that nuclear wild card up his sleeve. It's all he's got.
If this invasion has shown anything, it has shown that the Russian military is crap.
I'm not talking about the speed of the invasion. To me it is a fairly reasonable pace. I mean the failure to exert air superiority and the readily apparent logistical and CC breakdown. It's a clusterfuq.
This level of ability to project force, NEXT DOOR to you, against a vastly "inferior" force is a shitshow.
That column, stopped because they are low on fuel, paints the picture. Piss poor logistics and control. Spread out to reduce air vulnerability, but unable to provide mutual support. No control of their envelope. They are lucky as hell that farmer in the truck wasn't just pulling covert recon for a bunch of his neighbors in the woods.
No wonder Putin is reminding us he's got nukes. He's showing his ass to the world. He's bent over and bare assed. If it wasn't for the nukes, and the weakness of the west, he'd be getting topped right now.
I'm also kind of surprised, I expect a LOT more capability. I guess it's a good thing for Ukraine. Hoping Putin gets over extended and has to walk this one back a LOT.
Diamondback
02-27-22, 20:29
Well said, Steyr. There can be no peace in Europe until this psychopathic bastard gay lovechild of Hitler and Napoleon has the buzzards feasting upon his corpse. Until then it's either warfare, economic warfare, sabotage and terrorism, or preparing for one or more of these.
Let this be a lesson, NEVER agree to give up your arms!
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