View Full Version : What is wrong with the Russian army?
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-11-22, 07:58
https://youtu.be/E1g4FQMaKRg
David Petreus talking to CNN about how incompetent the Russian military is.
Question (and please, this is for serious folks, not 5g/lizard people/Soros did it conspiracy/mental health disability shut-ins). What the hell is going on here? I guess I was a victim of Russian propaganda but I thought the Russians were ill equipped but competent. These guys seem to have a sub-gamer level of understanding of combat. How is this happening? I still think they will probably eventually take these cities but now I have doubts.
What do y’all think is happening here?
Straight Shooter
03-11-22, 08:10
https://youtu.be/E1g4FQMaKRg
David Petreus talking to CNN about how incompetent the Russian military is.
Question (and please, this is for serious folks, not 5g/lizard people/Soros did it conspiracy/mental health disability shut-ins). What the hell is going on here? I guess I was a victim of Russian propaganda but I thought the Russians were ill equipped but competent. These guys seem to have a sub-gamer level of understanding of combat. How is this happening? I still think they will probably eventually take these cities but now I have doubts.
What do y’all think is happening here?
I truly think it is unknowable. Due simply to the demonic media & the lying pos's in the WH. We will not/have not gotten a true, historically complete picture of that situation presented yet, theyve taken sides and are reporting for whom they wish to elevate as the "good guy", as well as the "bad guy". We just dont have enough factual info to know what is really happening, imo. I too, always thought Russia was bad ass, but I remember when the Wall fell and the old Soviet Union collapsed, we found out they were nowhere near the levels we thought back then. That COULD be the case now, I dont know.
Dictators tend to avoid having smart, independent thinking, and aggressive military leaders.
ThirdWatcher
03-11-22, 08:15
Dictators tend to avoid having smart, independent thinking, and aggressive military leaders.
Yup, always comes down to leadership.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-11-22, 08:15
What we need is an analysis of this invasion like that old TV show “battle ground“? Is that the name of it? Specifically what I wanna know is the “order of battle“ and what troops in what order were deployed, and what has not been deployed from there complete army, and where they are.
You all realize, that Ukraine was saved by global warming. The lack of hard frozen ground meant that all vehicles had to stay on roads instead of being able to go cross country. So if it were colder Ukraine would’ve fallen by now. Just sayin’.
https://youtu.be/E1g4FQMaKRg
David Petreus talking to CNN about how incompetent the Russian military is.
Question (and please, this is for serious folks, not 5g/lizard people/Soros did it conspiracy/mental health disability shut-ins). What the hell is going on here? I guess I was a victim of Russian propaganda but I thought the Russians were ill equipped but competent. These guys seem to have a sub-gamer level of understanding of combat. How is this happening? I still think they will probably eventually take these cities but now I have doubts.
What do y’all think is happening here?
Yes. You are.
They are Ill equipped, with outdated tech. The word I got from people in the country is that the idiots are using regular cellphones to communicate and the Ukrainian army is intercepting all the calls. Many of the soldiers also appear to be conscripts with very little training.
Also, you know the stereotype of Russians being drunks? It's true.
SomeOtherGuy
03-11-22, 08:25
Woooh, CNN, Anderson Cooper, and Ret. Gen. Betray-Us all in one, that's awesome.
As for Russia's lack of immediate victory:
1) Russia chose to send second-line troops with dated equipment. They might have chosen this to:
a) keep the good troops in reserve for WW3 with NATO;
b) get the second-line troops experienced, for general benefit or for WW3; or
c) use up some units they don't want around any more, but don't want to formally disband. Perhaps because of loyalty questions.
2) The whole thing could be a big honeypot to try and lure the west into combat, and then counterattack with their good stuff.
3) The Putin era has simply brought the return of the "10 foot tall Russian" from the early Cold War era. They make big claims, our media buys them, and our military doesn't refute them because it gets more funding and attention the more scary the Russian threat looks.
I think it's mostly #3, harsh reality meeting the last two decades' of propaganda. The pictures of SU-34 cockpits with inexpensive civilian Garmin GPS units for navigation are pretty interesting.
Maybe if they spent more time doing regular old Infantry battle drills instead of back flip tomahawk throws and shooting each other in the vest at 3 yards, they would do better in battle.
The Soviet Union forgot to tell the military it was dissolving. They still use USSR-era TTPs, have little C3, and the NCO corps is just conscripts who have been in longer than the rest of the conscripts. Every intelligence community in the world is taking notes.
Dictators tend to avoid having smart, independent thinking, and aggressive military leaders.
Maybe Putin pulled a Hitler, but I still find it all very strange, like if any Army in the world knew what they would be dealing with in the region, it would be Russia, but supposedly:
Russia’s 40-Mile-Long Parking Lot: Stalled, Stranded, Hungry, And Freezing
https://sofrep.com/news/russian-40-mile-parking-long-lot-stalled-stranded-hungry-and-now-may-freeze-to-death/
It is interesting that historically speaking, we were always told that Russia was our 'near peer' in terms of military matters, but this attack doesn't match with what we had been told .
It is interesting that historically speaking, we were always told that Russia was our 'near peer' in terms of military matters, but this attack doesn't match with what we had been told .
Maybe at one time they were, but that has not been the case in decades. But, no bad guy no massive budgets for maintaining world police status. China seems a much bigger threat at this point, but they sell us cheap widgets, so we turn a blind eye to their stealing billions in IP, viral WMDs, and concentration camps and such.
Also discussed here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=3018539
Smartass memes aside (also in that thread):
Russia is (was) "badass" primarily due to their nuclear capability, and the raw size of their army and reserves.
Everything else is more in the bully category.
Their Navy is pretty mediocre, modest power projection capability.
Their Air Force seems pretty good, but they have not gone up against a true peer in a long time. Ukraine might be the closest near peer in a while.
This does not mean they don't have some excellent weapons and even pilots or similar. But not in mass.
What's odd is they could have committed 5x the 100-120k troops to Ukraine without difficulty. But did not. But still would have had to get them in there somehow.
Likewise, they are not fighting against the same Ukrainian army they did the last go round. They definitely learned from that last encounter. Especially aspect where they lost command and control due to dependence on Russian radios which quit working under cyber attack. (Effective kill switch)
Can't remember the actual source but this makes sense and seems to be a big part of the problem. When we go into battle our units have direct sustainment support that provide real time support and our sustainment units are 2-3 times the size of Russian units. Our sustainment brigades support anywhere from 1 to 10 actual fighting brigades. The Russians may have a battalion size unit supporting a Division. They also do not move with and behind those divisions. The Russians basically have 2-3 days of supplies we will say to fight with and then have to be resupplied. Basically they have to pause for resupply. Resupply is by means of trucks or rail. This is evidenced by the 40 mile long convoy. The majority of those vehicles are supply trucks of some sort. So long story short if the Russians don't achieve their goals within 2-3 days, 4 or so at most, then they stall out and have to be resupplied. This along with the other issues mentioned, outdated equipment, poorly trained conscripts, poor leadership etc. has cost them dearly.
It is interesting that historically speaking, we were always told that Russia was our 'near peer' in terms of military matters, but this attack doesn't match with what we had been told .I was always confused by the "near peer" terminology, but what I later learned was that it didn't really mean what we thought.
It's used to describe any engagement which would be conventional troops with regular army, armor, air support, artillery support etc.
As opposed to the asymmetric warfare we've been dealing with for a couple of decades.
It does not imply that the two sides are actually literal near peers in terms of capability/strength. Just that they fight using the same general tactics and types of weapons.
In the early 90s I went to a national security symposium in Georgetown, at which were some former Soviet intelligence and military officers. They said (paraphrasing of course) they knew their military was no match except in terms of sheer numbers, so their best defense was to present a posture of cutting edge tech through deception and maskirovka. They also knew that when Reagan started pouring an enormous amount of money into the military after Carter it was the final nail on the coffin of the Soviet Union simply because their leadership's desire to ramp up manufacturing to match Reagan's goals was the death knell to the economy.
I imagine China's is similar. They reverse engineer tech but are so afraid of defectors they take all the good guts out of their high-tech weapons (i.e., aircraft, etc.).
Its multi-faceted.
First, you don’t invade Ukraine in the spring. I think everyone knows that, and perhaps he thought he could have the element of surprise by doing that.
I think that there was little time given to planning, despite a long buildup. Distrust or Opsec.
They don’t know how to do combined arms stuff. Like, at all. That shit requires both practice, and experience.
They failed to achieve important first week objectives, so that failure snowballs into a quagmire. Things like owning all the major airfields, achieving air supremacy and securing all nuclear…anything.
They suck at logistics. They’re early log strategy is to send what is expected, not what is requested. A few busted fuel trucks, and that plan goes off the rail instantly.
Lack of aircraft carriers in-play. The one that should have been there is out for repairs. Why does an aircraft carrier make a big difference? Because even if you take airfields, they may have to be repaired, and the fuel depot is likely destroyed or sab’d. Aircraft carriers and their friends bring everything with them.
Speaking of airfields… they misemployed their paratroopers.
On aircraft: they forgot to think about our experience in Viet Nam or theirs in Afghanistan. And somehow also forgot about proxies. Missiles be cheap, and much of the world leaped at the opportunity to test their anti-tank and anti-air weapons on their old foe.
Their economy sucks, always has. All those tanks and airplanes have maintenance costs.
They lack institutional knowledge and experience. Conscripts don’t really pass on experience, and most aren’t around long enough to gain much. The NCO corps is a joke. The officer corps is detached, propagandized, and likely corrupt. False maintenance and readiness reports, skimming, etc. Also, they may still be feeling the effects of stalin’s purges, WWII losses, and the general command climate of the soviet days. I know that seems like a long time ago, but, who’s been writing doctrine all these years, who’s been teaching at the war college? Stalin was only a few short generations ago.
Some pure speculation: they may have withheld too much of their potential airpower, not for 3d chess, but for lack of trust. Fighter pilots may not be as susceptible to the information campaign, as they are smarter, more educated, and free-er thinking than motorpool Joe. They also have greater ability to defect and betray the plan. Of course with all that said, they don’t appear as free-thinking or quick on their feet as I would have thought, given targeting/intel failures.
Intel and navigation was poor. GPS may have gotten spoofed, and Google Maps (probably others) suspended services early on. Street signs got taken down or painted over. Much intel was outdated. Somehow. Now you’ve got a bunch of dudes that can’t combined-arms, have never been allowed to make a decision, are poorly led, and are ****ing lost with a bunch of ancient vehicles ready to break down at any moment, and poor fuel and maintenance support. Show me on the map where you are, PL. not with your thumb; with a pine needle. Ok, lemme help you out…incoming.
Propaganda and misinformation can only get you so far, once lead and steel go ballistic. I’m hoping good intel on their mortars and artillery comes of this. I’m tired of seeing reports of 240mm self propelled mortars that can yeet like 8 miles, but somehow never report to the battle.
We have the ultimate weapon against china, if it ever comes to hostilities we just stopped paying on our debt and implement a complete embargo.
Our two countries are so heavily entwined that while we may squabble, it is very unlikely that there would ever be outright declaration of war.
Taiwan might be the wild card. That's a pretty big squabble. But at the same time while they could bomb the heck out of it, they don't really have amphibious/airborne capability big enough to do a fast clean sweep.
We also frequently have troops there, which might be intentional as a spoiler.
But never say never, we've seen stranger things. Like Russia struggling with Ukraine.
sandsunsurf
03-11-22, 09:12
I truly think it is unknowable. Due simply to the demonic media & the lying pos's in the WH. We will not/have not gotten a true, historically complete picture of that situation presented yet, theyve taken sides and are reporting for whom they wish to elevate as the "good guy", as well as the "bad guy". We just dont have enough factual info to know what is really happening, imo. I too, always thought Russia was bad ass, but I remember when the Wall fell and the old Soviet Union collapsed, we found out they were nowhere near the levels we thought back then. That COULD be the case now, I dont know.
There is so much open source information about this conflict, from governments to private satellite imagery to journalists from the right and left to individuals live-streaming that we know more about this conflict than any previous conflict ever.
The sources are so numerous and varied that a conspiracy theory about the Russians being “painted as bad” is totally implausible.
These two make the most sense, with number 3 being most likely. Plus, Putin is a narcissist who is losing his mind and wants to be tzar of the old Soviet empire before he dies.
2) The whole thing could be a big honeypot to try and lure the west into combat, and then counterattack with their good stuff.
3) The Putin era has simply brought the return of the "10 foot tall Russian" from the early Cold War era. They make big claims, our media buys them, and our military doesn't refute them because it gets more funding and attention the more scary the Russian threat looks.
CNN and Patreaus are definitely trustworthy...
CNN and Patreaus are definitely trustworthy...
So what’s your take, then?
I don't think you can rule out corruption as a factor, money meant to modernize and upgrade the military has gone to buy all those oligarch's yacht's that are now being seized. Also buying cheap Chinese truck tires that are "just as good".
This is where I am & questioning everything being regurgitated...we got bad actors (US included) who all have something deviant going on with this fubar situation. I think the whole US funded biolabs / Russia wanting a UN security council meeting to discuss evidence is really gonna get the ole clarity of mud reporting. I find it all frustrating & only hope this stays a European / Russian problem & keep our boots out of it all. There is also some alternative news reporting / possible false flag from either side of some bombing on the Belarus border trying to suck them into this.
I truly think it is unknowable. Due simply to the demonic media & the lying pos's in the WH. We will not/have not gotten a true, historically complete picture of that situation presented yet, theyve taken sides and are reporting for whom they wish to elevate as the "good guy", as well as the "bad guy". We just dont have enough factual info to know what is really happening, imo. I too, always thought Russia was bad ass, but I remember when the Wall fell and the old Soviet Union collapsed, we found out they were nowhere near the levels we thought back then. That COULD be the case now, I dont know.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-11-22, 10:09
Let’s try to keep this thread about the Russian military And it’s performance specifically.
My guess is Putin kept everything so close to his vest (OPSEC-wise) that the Russian military staff didn't even know they were going to invade. Captured Russian orders show op plans were approved in January for a February execution, delayed because Xi asked Vlad not to invade during the Winter Olympics.
Ukraine borders Russia, and they speak Russian in Donbas and the Crimea. The Black Sea Fleet only had to float a few hours to the Crimea -- think Alameda to San Diego, or Norfolk to Jacksonville.
If you're going to execute a special operation it needs to be coordinated and synchronized. The Ukrainians have been occupied and at war since 2014, and there's no love lost between them.
My guess is Putin kept everything so close to his vest (OPSEC-wise) that the Russian military staff didn't even know they were going to invade.
Its been said that top mil staff only knew it was launching about a week out.
I don’t know if thats truth or speculation.
Yes. You are.
They are Ill equipped, with outdated tech. The word I got from people in the country is that the idiots are using regular cellphones to communicate and the Ukrainian army is intercepting all the calls. Many of the soldiers also appear to be conscripts with very little training.
Also, you know the stereotype of Russians being drunks? It's true.
Plenty of images and video showing them using Baofeng GMRS/HAM radios.
Let’s try to keep this thread about the Russian military And it’s performance specifically.
I think it's all gonna be a guessing game with the current available 411 being reported Greg...I too thought the major cities would all be choked off by now as I assumed Russian dominance would steam roll the country. Saw a report on fox yesterday where some 'spert' said Russia's slow pace has lost it for them??
If we are going to speculate, what would you guess the air game would be if we got Ukraine pilots up & would the game dramatically change?? I don't feel it will happen but it certainly is staying on topic.
I've been watching from the buildup to now. Russia's military is pitiful.
They had huge amounts of military equipment and armor stacked up like sardines in the staging areas. Then they invade with long armored columns moving down main roads.
We could have already crushed them with air and missile strikes. And hearing about all those tanks and armor running out of gas and being abandoned speaks volumes.
Frankly aside from numbers the Russians have never really been "all that".
Sure, they dropped communism. But the top down authoritarian model remains the same. Initiative and authority amongst NCOs and junior officers is nonexistent. Logistics, maintenance, small unit autonomy, training, ... all still stuck in the authoritative soviet model.
Grain rotting in warehouses while people go hungry? Same guys, different flag. Way back in the Desert Storm Era the Russians were literally flabbergasted that the US could mobilize so much so fast.
Don't get me wrong. They have their strengths. They can build good hardware, and do it in quantity over time. They just have a lot of weaknesses in terms of coordinated, mobility warfare. Their command mentality is built around the slow moving meat grinder of "slog warfare". So in reality, this is turning into the type of combat that suits them best.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-11-22, 12:15
Did they expect Zelinsky to run at the first chance, then it would simply be a matter of declaring a new govt and everyone shrugs and life goes on? Then Zelinsky pulls a Churchill and everything goes sideways.
I wouldn't doubt that the US told Russia that they'd get Zelinsky out and then he either renegged or the US just assumed he would bolt at the first chance.
Where is all the news about the famed and scary S400 missiles? They can't seem to get a fix on Turkish TB2 drones. :cool:
Averageman
03-11-22, 12:41
I think what you're looking at is cultural norm for Russians. Don't assert yourself or take any initiative and for god sakes remember "The Hammer" only comes down on the nail that's sticking up.
So instead of promoting hard chargers that lead at the NCO level, everyone gets promoted based on time in service.
Not very efficient and it leads to a 40 km goat screw.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-11-22, 13:01
.
Not very efficient and it leads to a 40 km goat screw.
Ironically, that ends up being a SELL feature for getting those middle-eastern ‘volunteers’.
Goat-F**K, you promise? Sign me up!!!!
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-11-22, 13:04
Where is all the news about the famed and scary S400 missiles? They can't seem to get a fix on Turkish TB2 drones. :cool:
Exactly. These things could blast stealth fighters from a million miles away . They did shoot down a mig with one early one big whoop.
They seem to have terrible Armored Tactics. I wonder how much bloviating has been involved in their tech weapons.
This will be a interesting chance to gather their true on the ground capabilities. As of now it appears they can't even plan the basic logistics of a ground war with their neighboring country.
Johnny Rico
03-11-22, 13:39
I wonder if China is salivating at seeing their "friends" give such a poor account of themselves. Much is made of Chinese claims to Taiwan and the South China Sea, but China also considers parts of the Russian Far East as historically theirs. Might Xi make a move to regain the Lost Chinese Siberia? If the Russian army is having logistics problems in Ukraine, how could they move enough troops and equipment East to contest the Chinese annexation of Siberia?
Logistically it's not hard to move nukes, and while Russia and China might not be BFF's they hate us worse than each other. But I do hope the Russian poor showing will give China pause as far as Taiwan.
China is watching this. They did have their eye on Taiwan.
China fears that Taiwan can sink their ships in the strait if they try to invade like that now.
And if they try to flank the island they will also be sunk.
They must be looking at the Far East and thinking we can take that.
BoringGuy45
03-11-22, 14:44
It has been a long, LONG time since Russia has had any success in an offensive war. This war is very reminiscent of the Winter War. The predictions of that war were pretty much the same: The Russians were going to win quickly and easily and the Finns were barely going to be able to put a dent in the Red Army. Then, the Finns devastated the Russians though the Russians were eventually able win due to larger numbers, theirs was a Pyrrhic victory against a much smaller, lesser equipped, but much more tenacious and trained enemy.
In the Cold War, we were always being told that the Russians were bigger, stronger, better equipped, better trained, more ruthless, more resourceful, and more advanced than we could ever be and our chance of beating them in a war was unlikely at best. Then, they went into Afghanistan, and that turned into their Vietnam.
Once again, they've started a war with a supposedly weaker enemy that they were supposed to destroy within a matter of days, and here we are three weeks later and they can't make any headway.
Time and time and time again, the media, intelligence community, and government WANT Russia to be our peer. Even when they were in shambles in the 90s, people always talked about how they were STILL bigger and tougher than us! The constant narrative about Russia's unstoppable might continues on even though they've never done anything to back it up.
Johnny Rico
03-11-22, 14:48
If China takes the Far East from Russia, that poses a huge problem for geopolitical strategy. We would no longer contain them in the Pacific and they would no longer need Taiwan. Who would you rather face across the Behring, China or Russia?
Sorry for the thread drift Greg Bell, but this is the direction my mind took me. Russia's military ineptitude has long term ramifications that we can only guess at.
BoringGuy45
03-11-22, 14:53
If China takes the Far East from Russia, that poses a huge problem for geopolitical strategy. We would no longer contain them in the Pacific and they would no longer need Taiwan. Who would you rather face across the Behring, China or Russia?
Sorry for the thread drift Greg Bell, but this is the direction my mind took me. Russia's military ineptitude has long term ramifications that we can only guess at.
Again, just like the Winter War. If the USSR had torn through Finland, Hitler would probably have kept the treaty with Stalin for a little while longer. But after the poor performance in Finland, Hitler saw the USSR as an easy target and stabbed them in the back. I wouldn't be surprised to see China do the same thing here.
If China takes the Far East from Russia, that poses a huge problem for geopolitical strategy. We would no longer contain them in the Pacific and they would no longer need Taiwan. Who would you rather face across the Behring, China or Russia?
Sorry for the thread drift Greg Bell, but this is the direction my mind took me. Russia's military ineptitude has long term ramifications that we can only guess at.
Would Russia request our help and we'd have to save their a$$ yet again only to have them pretend it never happened? To even mention the Lend Lease program would get you sent to a Gulag in Russia until the fall of the commie regime. Yet again, we fail to get credit where due so some country can maintain national pride and such.
Again, just like the Winter War. If the USSR had torn through Finland, Hitler would probably have kept the treaty with Stalin for a little while longer. But after the poor performance in Finland, Hitler saw the USSR as an easy target and stabbed them in the back. I wouldn't be surprised to see China do the same thing here.
There are still tens of thousands of Russian soldiers in Finland.
Along the eastern border, buried 6 feet deep.
There are still tens of thousands of Russian soldiers in Finland.
Along the eastern border, buried 6 feet deep.
Over 100,000 compared to ~ 20,000 Finns.
Andy
If China takes the Far East from Russia, that poses a huge problem for geopolitical strategy. We would no longer contain them in the Pacific and they would no longer need Taiwan. Who would you rather face across the Behring, China or Russia?
Sorry for the thread drift Greg Bell, but this is the direction my mind took me. Russia's military ineptitude has long term ramifications that we can only guess at.
China's military is not much of a threat. Something like 75% of their infantry units don't even have motorized transport available. Korean War style human-wave assaults are their go-to combat strategy. They are spending more on defense, but most of the improvements are naval, air, and missiles. They have a long way to go before they can even realistically mount a ground invasion of Taiwan.
China and Russia in a land war brings to mind two fat drunk guys push-fighting in a bar.
The_War_Wagon
03-11-22, 16:02
They seem every bit as competent as they were in Afghanistan
I wonder if China is salivating at seeing their "friends" give such a poor account of themselves. Much is made of Chinese claims to Taiwan and the South China Sea, but China also considers parts of the Russian Far East as historically theirs. Might Xi make a move to regain the Lost Chinese Siberia? If the Russian army is having logistics problems in Ukraine, how could they move enough troops and equipment East to contest the Chinese annexation of Siberia?
Forget even Siberia, not long ago they were spatting with Russia over Vladivostok[?] trying to claim it was always part of China...
But yes, this thread brings up a good question I was going to post in the "lessons" thread:
Why does it seem the Russians aren't working at 100% mental ability? Like, they're advancing/attacking, but stupidly. It's a real headscratcher.
For example, I get not wanting to roll your tanks across muddy fields, so roads are being used more - understandable. But then there seems a constant parade of doing dumb shit like rolling head-on into a town in a packed mass of vehicles, and then predictably getting clobbered. Like... WHO DOES THAT? Don't they know better?
Most recent example - a tiny town choke point they could easily go around through fields, maybe 10 minutes extra driving time. Nope, they drive directly into down, get ambushed, bunch up, get clobbered some more, THEN.... drive through the fields to escape. Unreal....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icSJPqkzupI
I'm not an armor expert but if you want to do the main-road Gulf War blitzkrieg thing, don't they usually have some sort of Cav/Scout groups that are supposed to go ahead and make sure stuff like this doesn't happen?
A trained, competent, and motivated NCO corps is the backbone of most decent armies. Not sure how the Russians stack up in that category.
A trained, competent, and motivated NCO corps is the backbone of most decent armies. Not sure how the Russians stack up in that category.
Poorly.
https://youtu.be/E1g4FQMaKRg
David Petreus talking to CNN about how incompetent the Russian military is.
Question (and please, this is for serious folks, not 5g/lizard people/Soros did it conspiracy/mental health disability shut-ins). What the hell is going on here? I guess I was a victim of Russian propaganda but I thought the Russians were ill equipped but competent. These guys seem to have a sub-gamer level of understanding of combat. How is this happening? I still think they will probably eventually take these cities but now I have doubts.
What do y’all think is happening here?
When this first started, I honestly thought "two weeks."
I have no idea what is going on. Maybe Putin just expected a fast surrender, maybe he's trying to minimize the level of atrocity on film (but that doesn't seem like something that would actually bother him) or maybe they are just running into far more resistance than anyone imagined.
But without going there personally, we aren't gonna know for awhile. And as much as I'm worried about the Ukrainians, I hope we don't go there personally unless it's just a relief effort AFTER the war is over.
Maybe if they spent more time doing regular old Infantry battle drills instead of back flip tomahawk throws and shooting each other in the vest at 3 yards, they would do better in battle.
Pretty sure that's just the SpentNuts boys.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-11-22, 18:06
Absolutely. I’m all for letting them into NATO and doing a (mostly euro-financed) Marshall plan—-after the Russians are out. I don’t want Americans fighting there unless the Russians attack us or NATO.
When this first started, I honestly thought "two weeks."
I have no idea what is going on. Maybe Putin just expected a fast surrender, maybe he's trying to minimize the level of atrocity on film (but that doesn't seem like something that would actually bother him) or maybe they are just running into far more resistance than anyone imagined.
But without going there personally, we aren't gonna know for awhile. And as much as I'm worried about the Ukrainians, I hope we don't go there personally unless it's just a relief effort AFTER the war is over.
Should of let Russia join NATO.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-11-22, 18:57
Nah, then they might actually have an effective military!
Should of let Russia join NATO.
Have the Russians committed their Shock or Guards Divisions .......... NO !!!!!
Absolutely. I’m all for letting them into NATO and doing a (mostly euro-financed) Marshall plan—-after the Russians are out. I don’t want Americans fighting there unless the Russians attack us or NATO.
This is the problem with Russians in Ukraine. If they take it, Belarus will likely be voluntarily annexed and that puts some NATO neighbors "in play" which is probably the most dangerous thing about the entire event. I really don't want us to be in a position to have to defend some of our newer NATO members.
Should of let Russia join NATO.
Well that certainly would solve and create quite a few problems. :laugh:
Honestly, a LONG TIME AGO, we needed to sit down with the "new" Russia and define spheres of influence by agreement rather than leave everything in play and see what kind of crap anybody might pull. Even with the collapse of the USSR, nobody with a working brain is gonna forget they are a serious nuclear player and will always be the "other big guy" in the room. What cannot be attained by negotiated agreement can be leveraged with force if they feel they can get away with it. It's standard SOP for Russia.
A trained, competent, and motivated NCO corps is the backbone of most decent armies. Not sure how the Russians stack up in that category.
They have very few professional NCOs. Most are conscripts who just have more TIS than the other conscripts.
Roadbound is big problem.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1502382383584141323
SomeOtherGuy
03-11-22, 20:09
Nah, then they might actually have an effective military!
They'd have to learn English too. That seems to be a requirement for a NATO member to have an effective military. (Sweden and Switzerland aren't NATO members.)
Absolutely. I’m all for letting them into NATO and doing a (mostly euro-financed) Marshall plan—-after the Russians are out. I don’t want Americans fighting there unless the Russians attack us or NATO.
My sentiments exactly.
Hopefully there will be no "false flag" ops by either side to drag us in. Neither country is on top of my "Best-Buds of America" list; the Russians from waaayyy back, the Ukrainians from playing a part in Trump's [first] BS impeachment. Both are corrupt as hell, but then again so is our own government. However, if I was forced to score it as far as who should prevail.....Ukraine (begrudgingly) > Russia. I have no issue sending them weapons but no U.S. troops, any no-fly zones, or other such deliberate provocations.
Have the Russians committed their Shock or Guards Divisions .......... NO !!!!!
Which is the million dollar question - why not?
Meanwhile....
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNmJTLEXMAYtd_q?format=jpg&name=large
Russian National Guard is in play.
Coal Dragger
03-11-22, 21:11
I don’t think Russian National Guard is what lowprone is getting at.
The “Guards” divisions are supposed to be elite units going back to WWII.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guards_unit_(USSR)
Why aren’t these dudes being used?
I don’t think Russian National Guard is what lowprone is getting at.
The “Guards” divisions are supposed to be elite units going back to WWII.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guards_unit_(USSR)
[B]Why aren’t these dudes being used?[B]
Someone has to suck up the casualties ('cause your intel sucks) in order to denote enemy strongpoints, then send in the "better" troops?
I dunno, but I suspect that the average Russian grunt (not Spetsnaz or such) isn't what they've thought themselves to be.
I don’t think Russian National Guard is what lowprone is getting at.
I admit that I sometimes get mixed up in russian unit naming conventions. This appears to be one of those times.
Coal Dragger
03-11-22, 21:43
Yeah their unit designations can be a bit muddled.
I think that, for the most part, the "Shock" and "Guards" titles are largely honorary these days. Their namesakes distinguished themselves in WW2, and the titles were passed on through the decades.
P2Vaircrewman
03-11-22, 22:05
https://youtu.be/eXFDc-44YeE
https://youtu.be/eXFDc-44YeE
Let’s try to keep this thread about the Russian military And it’s performance specifically.
Can we point out(based on the festivities in Ukraine) that the Swiss military probably wouldn't be as useless as it's detractors claim?
Lots of Airborne was misused in the initial assaults with heavy losses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL-rdzMo1MU
Hottest new model kit this spring
67524
Yes, VDV employment and performance has been…. Weak and non-strategic. That was a bit of a surprise. But, at least we know how Red Dawn would go now.
Coal Dragger
03-12-22, 01:24
Someone has to suck up the casualties ('cause your intel sucks) in order to denote enemy strongpoints, then send in the "better" troops?
I dunno, but I suspect that the average Russian grunt (not Spetsnaz or such) isn't what they've thought themselves to be.
So a bit of study shows that elements of various “elite” Guards Divisions are participating in the Ukraine invasion. The 4th Guards Tank Division is in country for example. Apparently they just aren’t as good as everyone thought.
Selection, training and leadership
Averageman
03-12-22, 06:37
CBS say's 6000 dead and 18000 wounded in two weeks. Thats more than we lost in the entirety of the war in Iraq.
Business_Casual
03-12-22, 06:55
CBS say's 6000 dead and 18000 wounded in two weeks. Thats more than we lost in the entirety of the war in Iraq.
CBS? The ones that told you two weeks to stop the spread, wear a mask, don’t wear a mask, wear two masks, Trump colluded with Russia, Biden won more votes than any President in history, January 6th was an insurrection, there are no bio labs in Ukraine, oh wait there are research facilities…
But now they tell truth on Russia. Gotcha.
Business_Casual
03-12-22, 06:57
Yes, VDV employment and performance has been…. Weak and non-strategic. That was a bit of a surprise. But, at least we know how Red Dawn would go now.
Are you being briefed on Russia’s strategic and tactical goals and how their units are performing against those goals by a non-US media source?
Averageman
03-12-22, 07:00
CBS? The ones that told you two weeks to stop the spread, wear a mask, don’t wear a mask, wear two masks, Trump colluded with Russia, Biden won more votes than any President in history, January 6th was an insurrection, there are no bio labs in Ukraine, oh wait there are research facilities…
But now they tell truth on Russia. Gotcha.
No, I'm simply telling you what CBS said. I have no dog in this fight.
But because this came out in Congress, I wonder.
It is looking like Russia lacks a command structure with knowledge or experience in effective combat logistics.
However they are not fighting a undeveloped nation. Ukraine actually has some command structure and an Air Force. It may be very small compared to Russia's.
However it is possible that Russia is taking their time before for a hard full on decimating attack. In hopes Ukraine will come to its senses and surrender. Before they get heavy handed.
CBS say's 6000 dead and 18000 wounded in two weeks. Thats more than we lost in the entirety of the war in Iraq.
I'd view that source as reliable as the Russian news media personally.
No, I'm simply telling you what CBS said. I have no dog in this fight.
But because this came out in Congress, I wonder.
Yeah, I have never seen you accept or pass along obviously "2 more weeks'esque" BS.
Nice direct hit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfRcmJTAouM
The fox morning news cycle is all about how bad russia's army is & won't be able to occupy against guerrilla / snipers.
Are you being briefed on Russia’s strategic and tactical goals and how their units are performing against those goals by a non-US media source?
Their strategic goals? No
Their tactical goals? Sort of
Their performance? Yes.
What I find interesting is not that the Russian military has performed poorly, but that it performed relatively well in 2014/15 in Crimea and when they intervened in the Donbas. The scale of the forces involved is significantly different, of course, but I wonder if the sanctions the West imposed back then didn't have an impact after all? If the Russian military was forced to scale back modernization and training due to the collapse in oil prices, the rot caused would be showing by now. Also makes sense with some of the other stuff that has come out (Russians being issued rations that expired in 2015/2016, for instance). Add to that the fact that Russian attention has been against insurgents far from home, mostly in Syria, (sound familiar?) and we may have a reason why they're performing so poorly.
Side note, if the Russian military is running out of fuel for their supply convoys, issuing expired rations, and driving trucks with dry rotted tires, does anyone want to guess what the state of readiness is for their nuclear arsenal? How many ICBMs actually fly? How many could hit anywhere near where they were aimed? How long would their response time actually be?
Side note, if the Russian military is running out of fuel for their supply convoys...
If this had been a 'pre-planned' invasion as you and others tried so hard to convince everyone of -
They would have had all that fuel close to the border and ready to go.
They would have had LOTS of 'required' stuff near the border and ready to go - But they did not...
If this had been a 'pre-planned' invasion as you and others tried so hard to convince everyone of -
They would have had all that fuel close to the border and ready to go.
They would have had LOTS of 'required' stuff near the border and ready to go - But they did not...
Just playing devils advocate here.
Are you making the claim that Russia never intended to invade, but decided too for some reason at the last second?
If that’s the claim you’re making. What is your reasoning behind it?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think they do have required stuff near the border at the end of the rail line, the problem is the truck transport to get it to the tip of the spear has been less than reliable and actively targeted by Ukraine. Supposedly Putin delayed the invasion due to China's request not to do it during the Olympics so that when it started the ground was not frozen so they were roadbound. Now with this cold spell the frozen ground has allowed that stalled convoy to move off the road.
I think they do have required stuff near the border at the end of the rail line, the problem is the truck transport to get it to the tip of the spear has been less than reliable and actively targeted by Ukraine.Multiple things went wrong that screwed up their logistics (lost key airfields, etc.). They very clearly planned for and prestaged supplies at the border. They're just having issues getting them in country.
It's really hard keeping track of all the tin foil hat conspiracies here.
Either the MSM is showing the victims and how the ukrainians will be slaughtered to justify our boots on the ground.
OR the ukrainians are doing better than expected, holding their own, but that is somehow also MSM propaganda to achieve the Great reset?
These are kind of mutually exclusive.
Many were surprised. But, in retrospect:
1) the Ukrainian army and reserves were pretty big. Even though everyone thought they would be outmatched they still had roughly similar numbers.
2) the Ukrainian military took specific action out of learnings from earlier Russian incursions that left them blindsided with no command and control. I saw a video on this long before the incursion because I was interested in the cyber warfare aspect of it.
3) the West had been shoring them up with substantial lethal aid, and doubled down on that after the invasion. A lot of very effective anti air and armor.
4) Zelinsky resisted the chance to bolt and cave, and instead showed some backbone. Call it propaganda, but as a leader he's doing exactly what a good (great?) leader should do. Rally the people, etc.
5) NATO countries in Eastern Europe have been training for exactly this fight for decades. Especially Poland, who shares a substantial border with Ukraine. You know there have to be advisors assisting/coaching.
From there you can get into all the speculation about the state of the Russian military, motivation, etc.
About the only thing we can tell from an external Black box perspective is that they failed to achieve key movements and objectives that was expected and critical. And apparently that has had impact on their logistics and other capabilities.
There's also puzzlment from people whose job it is to know and keep track of this kind of thing that they did the invasion so late, which significantly limited their use of armor due to mud.
Russia of all militaries should know this. So either the generals did want to give Putin a message, or told him it would not be an issue, or Putin went anyway. But they had to know mud would be an issue.
Conspiracies aside, multiple things can be true at the same time. Staging supplies at the border, and having your MSR bogged down. Not hitting your tactical and strategic determinances D-day + 1, + 2, etc. Underestimating your enemy and overestimating your log train.
I'm not a big fan of summary executions, but my goodness, Russia's military intelligence officers have been awful.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-12-22, 10:16
Side note, if the Russian military is running out of fuel for their supply convoys, issuing expired rations, and driving trucks with dry rotted tires, does anyone want to guess what the state of readiness is for their nuclear arsenal? How many ICBMs actually fly? How many could hit anywhere near where they were aimed? How long would their response time actually be?
I suspect it is pretty bad. But I think they have around 5k H-bombs. Even if only a few big boomer subs get through we are looking at the potential collapse of civilization. Not worth the risk. I do wish we had really went in hard on SDI so we could be a little more bold. Clearly, the Russians haven't been able to keep up what they have, there is no way they were going to be able to develop SDI workarounds or keep up with our countermeasures.
I suspect it is pretty bad. But I think they have around 5k H-bombs. Even if only a few big boomer subs get through we are looking at the potential collapse of civilization. Not worth the risk. I do wish we had really went in hard on SDI so we could be a little more bold. Clearly, the Russians haven't been able to keep up what they have, there is no way they were going to be able to develop SDI workarounds or keep up with our countermeasures.
SDI was a counterintelligence bonanza on our part. It was never ever going to work, everyone told Reagan that. There's one memoir, Fitzwater maybe, said Reagan knew that, but valued the ability to use SDI as a means to plunge another nail on their economic coffin. So when the Soviet Union found out about SDI, they were chasing ghosts.
Just playing devils advocate here.
Are you making the claim that Russia never intended to invade, but decided too for some reason at the last second?
If that’s the claim you’re making. What is your reasoning behind it?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I know right? Like they had no intention to invalid Ukraine. But all the US claiming they were planing to for years. MADE Putin think he was for many years. Thus he thought he had planed it for so long. He thought surely he must be ready and have a plan. When in fact, he did not.
It was all just a US Jedi mind trick.
What I find interesting is not that the Russian military has performed poorly, but that it performed relatively well in 2014/15 in Crimea and when they intervened in the Donbas. The scale of the forces involved is significantly different, of course, but I wonder if the sanctions the West imposed back then didn't have an impact after all? If the Russian military was forced to scale back modernization and training due to the collapse in oil prices, the rot caused would be showing by now. Also makes sense with some of the other stuff that has come out (Russians being issued rations that expired in 2015/2016, for instance). Add to that the fact that Russian attention has been against insurgents far from home, mostly in Syria, (sound familiar?) and we may have a reason why they're performing so poorly.
Side note, if the Russian military is running out of fuel for their supply convoys, issuing expired rations, and driving trucks with dry rotted tires, does anyone want to guess what the state of readiness is for their nuclear arsenal? How many ICBMs actually fly? How many could hit anywhere near where they were aimed? How long would their response time actually be?
Perhaps a valid point but I'd rather not find out if avoidable. It only takes a couple to wreak havoc, then there are the Poseidons roaming around the oceans (or could be). The Poseidon uses a 200 mega-ton warhead, four times as large as Tsar Bomba. That ain't no joke. Saw a video where if one was detonated off our coast (it's planned use) it could generate a 1500ft high tsunami of highly radioactive water.
I know right? Like they had no intention to invalid Ukraine. But all the US claiming they were planing to for years. MADE Putin think he was for many years. Thus he thought he had planed it for so long. He thought surely he must be ready and have a plan. When in fact, he did not.
It was all just a US Jedi mind trick.
No, no, no. Putin woke up one morning and randomly decided to invade Ukraine. It was just a weird coincidence that a couple hundred thousand troops had randomly wandered over to the border over the last few months. This is all the fault of a bunch of Russian 2nd Lieutenants who got entire divisions lost during routine training and they wound up at the Ukraine border.
On another related note, none of this is actually happening . It's all CGI done in collusion with all the news media and the government to install martial law under Robin Sage 2022.
Chemical weapons release in 3-2-
1) the Ukrainian army and reserves were pretty big. Even though everyone thought they would be outmatched they still had roughly similar numbers.
2) the Ukrainian military took specific action out of learnings from earlier Russian incursions that left them blindsided with no command and control. I saw a video on this long before the incursion because I was interested in the cyber warfare aspect of it.
3) the West had been shoring them up with substantial lethal aid, and doubled down on that after the invasion. A lot of very effective anti air and armor.
4) Zelinsky resisted the chance to bolt and cave, and instead showed some backbone. Call it propaganda, but as a leader he's doing exactly what a good (great?) leader should do. Rally the people, etc.
5) NATO countries in Eastern Europe have been training for exactly this fight for decades. Especially Poland, who shares a substantial border with Ukraine. You know there have to be advisors assisting/coaching.
As all of this has been unfolding, I've been watching and garnering information from all the reliable, and some unreliable, sources I possibly could. I spent the better part of 2017 in Ukraine with a unit that was in an advisory/training role. With the exception of Alex V, I'm not sure of anyone else on this board that has been there in any capacity and could speak to how good, or not good the Ukrainian military is.
While there, we worked with several other partner nations, including some Eastern European militaries, the Latvians and Polish primarily. In fact, we had worked with this particular Polish unit in Afghanistan, and they held us in high regard due to that mutual experience. There were token others at different times, but next to us and the Canadians, they provided the largest contingents on a continual basis. We helped train and advise several different Ukrainian units, from one of their worst equipped, to their airborne unit, which was well equipped by their standards. My experience is the average Ukrainian Soldier is tough and motivated. Able to learn, and willing to learn how others did things in an effort to better themselves. They lapped up every bit of training we provided and begged for more.
One of the areas where we focused our training efforts at a staff level was logistics/operational planning considerations. They were still working off of the Soviet model, much like it appears the Russians are doing now. We also worked to introduce and further the idea of a competent and technically/tactically capable NCO Corps. Historically, and I suspect this is what has happened in the Russian army since the Ukrainian force structure is a Soviet leftover, when a conscript/NCO proves himself technically/tactically capable, he gets made an officer. We were trying to reinforce the idea that NCOs can, and should take on some of the officers workload. How that training has continued, I don't know, but I know we ran regular NCO professional development when I was there.
My impression is/was that the Ukrainians are/were capable of becoming a formidable fighting force to be respected. Depending on how you look at it, an under equipped, ill trained army fought a professional and more modern fighting force (the Russians) to a standstill back in 2014, or the Russians got what they were after and just stopped. After spending time with the Ukrainian Army, I like to think they fought the Russians to a standstill. They are now better trained, better equipped and even more motivated. Soldiers proud of their service, country and ready to fight Russians for what is theirs, and maintain their freedoms.
After spending time there, I fell in love with the place, the people and the culture. Had I not had a family here at home, I likely would have found a way to make it back over, and join their military. I would willingly stand shoulder to shoulder in a gunfight with a Ukrainian. They will be there, right beside you, never abandon you and willingly take the fight to the enemy. I fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, so no stranger to the two way range, and the inherent dangers involved. My on the ground perspective was this is a worthwhile fight, should it come to that. I hope it doesn't, but if it does, I will have no question in my mind of trusting our allies, and their willingness to fight.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-12-22, 13:16
SDI was a counterintelligence bonanza on our part. It was never ever going to work, everyone told Reagan that. There's one memoir, Fitzwater maybe, said Reagan knew that, but valued the ability to use SDI as a means to plunge another nail on their economic coffin. So when the Soviet Union found out about SDI, they were chasing ghosts.
While there was definitely a lot of bluffing involved (and the Soviets rightly crapped their britches knowing they couldn't compete if we were willing to fork out the bucks), Reagan was totally serious about SDI. Further, if you listen to Reagan's speech he acknowledged that it might take decades to complete (and of course many of the ideas didn't work out). It was never properly funded (a paltry 30 billion) and Clinton cut it as soon as he could as the left hated the program with a passion (because we were never, ever going to have any problems ever again). Clinton did support (in words) some limited missile defense but it wasn't until W came along that things were taken slightly seriously. Almost all of our current limited Missile defenses are the stunted children of SDI (Aegis, GMD, THAAD). IF we would have spent even a fraction of the money we have spent on other crap we could have a serious ABM system. But Clinton (and the Republicans in Congress) were too busy trying to cash in on the "peace dividend."
SOF and clandestine forces.
What I find interesting is not that the Russian military has performed poorly, but that it performed relatively well in 2014/15 in Crimea and when they intervened in the Donbas.
*snip*
does anyone want to guess what the state of readiness is for their nuclear arsenal? How many ICBMs actually fly? How many could hit anywhere near where they were aimed? How long would their response time actually be?
I don’t recall the percentage off the top of my head, but I think it is around a third, mostly dedicated to their ICBM arsenal, with much of the remainder on subs with varying types of delivery systems. Response time is 1-5 minutes. Their nuclear football differs from most western nations. It communicates with military officers, who trigger the launch. Russian law/doctrine dictates that it can only be triggered in a time of war, which is why everyone got sketched when putin elevated nuclear alert level using a statement that appears nowhere in russian doctrine.
When putin alluded to consequences that the world has never seen, he was perhaps hinting at submarine launched nuclear “torpedoes” that cause tsunamis and are incredibly “dirty”.
Multiple things went wrong that screwed up their logistics (lost key airfields, etc.). They very clearly planned for and prestaged supplies at the border. They're just having issues getting them in country.
It's really hard keeping track of all the tin foil hat conspiracies here.
Either the MSM is showing the victims and how the ukrainians will be slaughtered to justify our boots on the ground.
OR the ukrainians are doing better than expected, holding their own, but that is somehow also MSM propaganda to achieve the Great reset?
These are kind of mutually exclusive.
Many were surprised. But, in retrospect:
1) the Ukrainian army and reserves were pretty big. Even though everyone thought they would be outmatched they still had roughly similar numbers.
2) the Ukrainian military took specific action out of learnings from earlier Russian incursions that left them blindsided with no command and control. I saw a video on this long before the incursion because I was interested in the cyber warfare aspect of it.
3) the West had been shoring them up with substantial lethal aid, and doubled down on that after the invasion. A lot of very effective anti air and armor.
4) Zelinsky resisted the chance to bolt and cave, and instead showed some backbone. Call it propaganda, but as a leader he's doing exactly what a good (great?) leader should do. Rally the people, etc.
5) NATO countries in Eastern Europe have been training for exactly this fight for decades. Especially Poland, who shares a substantial border with Ukraine. You know there have to be advisors assisting/coaching.
From there you can get into all the speculation about the state of the Russian military, motivation, etc.
About the only thing we can tell from an external Black box perspective is that they failed to achieve key movements and objectives that was expected and critical. And apparently that has had impact on their logistics and other capabilities.
There's also puzzlment from people whose job it is to know and keep track of this kind of thing that they did the invasion so late, which significantly limited their use of armor due to mud.
Russia of all militaries should know this. So either the generals did want to give Putin a message, or told him it would not be an issue, or Putin went anyway. But they had to know mud would be an issue.
5.5, the Poles despise the Russians for obvious reasons and no doubt are/were highly motivated to make sure the Ukrainian's would make Russia suffer win or lose. I'd read the Brits had sent advisors after the 2014 invasion to improve their tactical capabilities, small unit tactics, etc. I'd imagine other countries had done similar? We sent quality lethal aid as you point out.
I also wonder, assume, we are helping them with battlefield level info via satellites , comms, spy sats, etc.
I'd read a very interesting articles that the Russians took out the cell comm towers, leaving their own outdated but secure G3 phones worthless, so they actually had to find and use local SIM cards, which made them easy to find, track, hack, which is how/why some of their top people got capped.
I struggle to imagine the Russians being that goofy, but that's the claim.
Can't confirm accuracy of that one, and it's public derived, so not OPSEC issues there hopefully.
When putin alluded to consequences that the world has never seen, he was perhaps hinting at submarine launched nuclear “torpedoes” that cause tsunamis and are incredibly “dirty”.
I remember when this threat was being talked about a few years ago. Putin was claiming 100mt yields from these nuclear torpedoes. I also remember thinking it sounded a lot like bluster to me at the time. And I haven't seen or heard anything about them since. Do you think this is a credible threat?
Haven't heard of any Spetnaz actions. Maybe they are keeping them for the big show....
It seems like it all comes down to training and having soldiers being able to adapt and pivot when needed to.
I remember when this threat was being talked about a few years ago. Putin was claiming 100mt yields from these nuclear torpedoes. I also remember thinking it sounded a lot like bluster to me at the time. And I haven't seen or heard anything about them since. Do you think this is a credible threat?
I don't know, but I do know we have the most advanced subs by a margin they (supposedly) can't track anywhere near as well as we track them, which I bet are right up their Russian a$$ these days and if they detect launch tubes opening, (hopefully) instructed to take them out immediately.
I remember when this threat was being talked about a few years ago. Putin was claiming 100mt yields from these nuclear torpedoes. I also remember thinking it sounded a lot like bluster to me at the time. And I haven't seen or heard anything about them since. Do you think this is a credible threat?
Could be, if they like each of their subs being unceremoniously sunk within a few minutes, the entire planet being a loss, and it came to that. The weapon is real, though I don’t know its yield, offhand. I do know that its velocity was greatly exaggerated, by double. I wouldn’t assume that the yield is exaggerated.
But I think the chances of it coming to nukes are low, at this time, but higher than anytime since the Cuban thing.
So, the threat is credible.
Business_Casual
03-12-22, 17:47
If I recall, Putin had these goals:
Keep Ukraine out of NATO
Create “independent” republics in the Donbas
Create a buffer state out of a neutered Ukraine
Severely degrade the Ukrainian military capabilities
I don’t believe his goals were “make guys on an Internet forum happy with how Russian maneuver elements have been employed.”
Is it possible their goals are being met? I think so.
Could be, if they like each of their subs being unceremoniously sunk within a few minutes, and it came to that. The weapon is real, though I don’t know its yield, offhand. I do know that its velocity was greatly exaggerated, by double. I wouldn’t assume that the yield is exaggerated.
But I think the chances of it coming to nukes are low, at this time, but higher than anytime since the Cuban thing.
So, the threat is credible.
200MT......Four times as large as Tsar Bomba's yield. (see my post #95 in this thread)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIW5EKhubj4
Is it possible their goals are being met? I think so.
So we are at the “Putin is playing 5d chess” level now? Let me know when we get to trust the plan…
Business_Casual
03-12-22, 18:29
So we are at the “Putin is playing 5d chess” level now? Let me know when we get to trust the plan…
That’s quite an achievement, I think you’ve inserted Ad Hominem, Strawman, False Dilemma and Red Herring fallacies into one response.
If I recall, Putin had these goals:
Keep Ukraine out of NATO
Create “independent” republics in the Donbas
Create a buffer state out of a neutered Ukraine
Severely degrade the Ukrainian military capabilities
I don’t believe his goals were “make guys on an Internet forum happy with how Russian maneuver elements have been employed.”
Is it possible their goals are being met? I think so.
That’s quite an achievement, I think you’ve inserted Ad Hominem, Strawman, False Dilemma and Red Herring fallacies into one response.
OK, but there’s no evidence he’s accomplished any of those goals. It’s only been 2 1/2 weeks, but I haven’t seen any evidence that a drawn out slugfest was Putin’s intent. Do you have something credible that suggests otherwise?
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-12-22, 19:45
Russia issues warning to US that it would fire on weapon shipments to Ukraine, raising the risk of direct confrontation between Moscow and a NATO country.
Line from CNN. Any details on this? I thought the US base was in Poland? If he wants to attack that, have fun.
I still think he is baiting us.
Business_Casual
03-12-22, 19:57
OK, but there’s no evidence he’s accomplished any of those goals. It’s only been 2 1/2 weeks, but I haven’t seen any evidence that a drawn out slugfest was Putin’s intent. Do you have something credible that suggests otherwise?
Zelensky said no to NATO publicly and said he was open to compromise on the Donbas. That’s goals one and two more or less. They captured the nuke reactors and for all we know the bio labs as well. See? He doesn’t have to “take” Ukraine, he just has to achieve his aims.
Zelensky said no to NATO publicly and said he was open to compromise on the Donbas. That’s goals one and two more or less. They captured the nuke reactors and for all we know the bio labs as well. See? He doesn’t have to “take” Ukraine, he just has to achieve his aims.
Your opinions are as fact-founded as the rest of the people in this thread (myself included), i.e. you can't really trust shit coming out of there.
Zelensky said no to NATO publicly and said he was open to compromise on the Donbas. That’s goals one and two more or less. They captured the nuke reactors and for all we know the bio labs as well. See? He doesn’t have to “take” Ukraine, he just has to achieve his aims.
So “more or less” and “for all we know…”?
OK :rolleyes:
Russia issues warning to US that it would fire on weapon shipments to Ukraine, raising the risk of direct confrontation between Moscow and a NATO country.
Line from CNN. Any details on this? I thought the US base was in Poland? If he wants to attack that, have fun.
I still think he is baiting us.
Have someone else do the transportation. Yeah, it's "cowardly" if you want to call it that, but it's like running a "sterile" operation while everyone knows who provided it. Think they haven't done the same to us? Fvck them.
We should have never mentioned it publicly and just did it on the down-low. Just sit back and nod in feigned agreement.
Have someone else do the transportation. Yeah, it's "cowardly" if you want to call it that, but it's like running a "sterile" operation while everyone knows who provided it. Think they haven't done the same to us? Fvck them.
We should have never mentioned it publicly and just did it on the down-low. Just sit back and nod in feigned agreement.
OPSEC hasn’t exactly been stellar on the Western side of this goat rope. :(
Haven't heard of any Spetnaz actions. Maybe they are keeping them for the big show....
It seems like it all comes down to training and having soldiers being able to adapt and pivot when needed to.
Spetnaz and Airborne were deployed to take the airports near Kyiv with no luck. i saw today some Spetnaz dude won a big Russian medal for action at Hostomel airport.
Apparent confirmation that the VDV's 45th Spetsnaz Brigade and 31st Air Assault Brigade took part in the air assault operation on Hostomel on Feb 24. Andrey Chernyshev from the 45th Spetsnaz Brigade was awarded the Order of Courage
Then there is this
Sources "well connected to the Russian Security Services" say some special forces, the Russian Spetsnaz, are "furious because they have been sent into battle without proper support, and many of them have been killed," NBC's Richard Engel reported in Kyiv
And these reports:
Today, the #Russian media announced that one more Russian officer was killed conducting aggressive war in #Ukraine. It's a Major Ruslan Leonov, a commander of a SpetsNaz company from Privolnoe settlement in Krasnodar province.
Sergeant Artyom Lyalin from a spetsnaz unit was killed in Ukraine. Lyalin was from Kolodezny, Voronezh Oblast.
Aleksey Blinkov from Rogvardia's 604th Special Purpose Center's elite Vityaz spetsnaz unit was reportedly killed in Ukraine.
First Lieutenant Andrei Shamko of the #Spetsnaz Brigade of the Russian Special Forces was killed in #Kharkov.
Captain Aleksey Chuchmanov from the GRU/GU's 3rd Spetsnaz Brigade based in Tolyatti was also killed in Ukraine.
Andrei Shamko, a graduate of the VDV's Ryazan Guards Higher Airborne Command School, from the GRU/GU's 2nd Spetsnaz Brigade based in Pskov was killed in Ukraine.
The #Ukraine Army claims that they eliminated the next #Russian officers: Major Viktor Maksimchuk (Krasnodar), Capt. Yevgeniy Ivanov (247th paratrooper regiment), and Capt. Alexey Chuchmanov (3rd SpetsNaz brigade of Rus. Army Gen. Staff).
Spetnaz and Airborne were deployed to take the airports near Kyiv with no luck. i saw today some Spetnaz dude won a big Russian medal for action at Hostomel airport. I hope it was posthumous.
Don't like either side, but I dislike one more than the other......although not by much.
Business_Casual
03-12-22, 20:28
Your opinions are as fact-founded as the rest of the people in this thread (myself included), i.e. you can't really trust shit coming out of there.
This is a fair assessment. You do have to concede that is it based on statements made by Zelensky and Putin, vice what Western media describe as the situation. However, I don’t speak Russian or Ukrainian so I will concede your point to a degree.
Business_Casual
03-12-22, 20:30
So “more or less” and “for all we know…”?
OK :rolleyes:
Do you have an assessment or just juvenile comments and emojis?
Do you have an assessment or just juvenile comments and emojis?
Well I directly quoted your words so…
I asked you for credible source information and you provided none. Everything you’re saying is your own personal opinion. You know less than a couple of people who’ve posted so far, and nothing more than anyone else.
My assessment is that everyone is lying, that Putin invaded a country which hadn’t attacked his, and he hasn’t won his self-initiated war yet. With all the confirmable information we have, Putin is indisputably the bad actor in this mess. I hope Ukraine breaks all his toys and kills all his officer corps before sending what’s left back to Russia with their tails between their legs.
What remains to be seen is the ultimate outcome, and it’s far too soon to write Ukraine off as a lost cause. That is my assessment. If you have a credible source providing evidence to the contrary, please feel free to post it.
P.S. ;)
What remains to be seen is the ultimate outcome, and it’s far too soon to write Ukraine off as a lost cause. That is my assessment.
That was funny! :)
Thinking they have about as much of a chance as a snowball in hell...
That was funny! :)
Thinking they have about as much of a chance as a snowball in hell...
Why? We are the ones with Massa Biden and Professor Harris
That was funny! :)
Thinking they have about as much of a chance as a snowball in hell...
You might want to look a little into the history of Ukraine.
Business_Casual
03-13-22, 07:25
Well I directly quoted your words so…
I asked you for credible source information and you provided none. Everything you’re saying is your own personal opinion. You know less than a couple of people who’ve posted so far, and nothing more than anyone else.
My assessment is that everyone is lying, that Putin invaded a country which hadn’t attacked his, and he hasn’t won his self-initiated war yet. With all the confirmable information we have, Putin is indisputably the bad actor in this mess. I hope Ukraine breaks all his toys and kills all his officer corps before sending what’s left back to Russia with their tails between their legs.
What remains to be seen is the ultimate outcome, and it’s far too soon to write Ukraine off as a lost cause. That is my assessment. If you have a credible source providing evidence to the contrary, please feel free to post it.
P.S. ;)
I did post my evidence. I posted the goals Putin said were the ones he wanted to achieve and why he invaded - Ukraine not in NATO, recognition of the Donbas republics, degrade Ukraine military capabilities (and I think he said special weapons) and create a neutralized buffer state between Russia and NATO.
I then pointed out how Zelensky (he runs Ukraine) said NATO was off the table for Ukraine and he was “open” to negotiating the status of the Donbas republics. We also know that Russia occupied Chernobyl and another nuke plant and it appears they over-ran the bio “research” facilities. So, to some degree Putin has achieved his stated aims.
See? That’s an assessment.
Business_Casual
03-13-22, 07:25
Well I directly quoted your words so…
I asked you for credible source information and you provided none. Everything you’re saying is your own personal opinion. You know less than a couple of people who’ve posted so far, and nothing more than anyone else.
My assessment is that everyone is lying, that Putin invaded a country which hadn’t attacked his, and he hasn’t won his self-initiated war yet. With all the confirmable information we have, Putin is indisputably the bad actor in this mess. I hope Ukraine breaks all his toys and kills all his officer corps before sending what’s left back to Russia with their tails between their legs.
What remains to be seen is the ultimate outcome, and it’s far too soon to write Ukraine off as a lost cause. That is my assessment. If you have a credible source providing evidence to the contrary, please feel free to post it.
P.S. ;)
I did post my evidence. I posted the goals Putin said were the ones he wanted to achieve and why he invaded - Ukraine not in NATO, recognition of the Donbas republics, degrade Ukraine military capabilities (and I think he said special weapons) and create a neutralized buffer state between Russia and NATO.
I then pointed out how Zelensky (he runs Ukraine) said NATO was off the table for Ukraine and he was “open” to negotiating the status of the Donbas republics. We also know that Russia occupied Chernobyl and another nuke plant and it appears they over-ran the bio “research” facilities. So, to some degree Putin has achieved his stated aims.
See? That’s an assessment.
If this had been a 'pre-planned' invasion as you and others tried so hard to convince everyone of -
They would have had all that fuel close to the border and ready to go.
They would have had LOTS of 'required' stuff near the border and ready to go - But they did not...
Oh, so they did invade, but it wasn't pre-planned? Even though we watched the build-up for months, and were repeatedly told by someone on this forum with the same username as you that there would be no invasion? Huh, damn, I hate it when I accidentally invade a country with hundreds of thousands of troops. Or did they just get lost on the way back to their bases?
On another related note, none of this is actually happening . It's all CGI done in collusion with all the news media and the government to install martial law under Robin Sage 2022.
We laugh, but I've heard that one before sadly. And the person spouting it was deadly serious.
Haven't heard of any Spetnaz actions. Maybe they are keeping them for the big show....
It seems like it all comes down to training and having soldiers being able to adapt and pivot when needed to.
Yeah, as Mack said, there have been several reports of Spetnaz troops getting in on the action. Generally, it doesn't seem to have gone well for them either. The video of Ukrainian troops capturing some light armored vehicles and then RPGing the building where the Russians had holed up in was apparently Spetnaz or similar troops based on the vehicles used.
Zelensky said no to NATO publicly and said he was open to compromise on the Donbas. That’s goals one and two more or less. They captured the nuke reactors and for all we know the bio labs as well. See? He doesn’t have to “take” Ukraine, he just has to achieve his aims.
When did he "say no to NATO"? Every article on the subject says he has "cooled on NATO" based on NATO's lackluster response to the situation. He says they're not really interested in having Ukraine join, due to fears of the Russian reaction. I've yet to see anything that suggests he has declined an invitation to join, or withdrawn Ukraine's bid to join. If anything, this sounds like politics as normal; downplay an issue that causes problems, let it simmer on the backburner, and go from there. Zelenskyy has also been open to compromise on the Donbas since he was elected. Part of his initial run for office was based on resolving the issue through non-military means, and the incumbent used this to paint Zelenskyy as a friend of Moscow. Many of Zelenskyy's policies offered more autonomy to the region but required a Russian withdrawal. Based on these statements, he hasn't changed his stance all that much.
"It is important to me how people who want to be part of Ukraine will live there. I am interested in the opinion of those who see themselves as citizens of the Russian Federation. However, we must discuss this issue," Zelensky said.
Source: https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraines-zelensky-says-he-has-cooled-on-joining-nato-2022-3
Now, we all know the media cherry-picks comments for articles, and my Ukrainian doesn't even qualify as "third best", so watching his speeches are out. But, do you have anything that offers a more concrete stance to back up what you've said? Or are you reading as much into his statements as I am, just the opposite way?
Business_Casual
03-13-22, 08:42
@Alpha-17, those are fair questions, and my Ukrainian is non-existent, so it is fair to say I am interpreting it in the reverse as you observed.
https://youtu.be/rD3RyPHSqa0
As for Putin, this is more conclusive:
https://youtu.be/1qS6J-WbTD8
That said, my “assessment” albeit amateur, was based on actual statements by the involved parties and not on emojis and Facebook avatars.
@Alpha-17, those are fair questions, and my Ukrainian is non-existent, so it is fair to say I am interpreting it in the reverse as you observed.
https://youtu.be/rD3RyPHSqa0
As for Putin, this is more conclusive:
https://youtu.be/1qS6J-WbTD8
That said, my “assessment” albeit amateur, was based on actual statements by the involved parties and not on emojis and Facebook avatars.
Oh, we all know that emojis and changing a FB avatar to one with a flag are modern WMDs. No nation can stand before the #standwiththecurrentthing crowd.
More seriously, I would agree with part of the first video, where the "cooling on NATO" comments are an olive branch for Russia. They don't actually mean anything but could be used to get Ukraine out of the war. Even if taken the way you did, however, I don't see Ukraine withdrawing its membership bid from the EU, nor accepting any plans for a demilitarized or neutralized country, which by all accounts (again, in English articles/videos, because my Russian is worse than my Ukrainian, and my Ukrainian is as non-existent as yours) were also major war aims.
We all know that war aims shift, and if the reports of Putin putting his intel chiefs under house arrest are true, he's probably looking for a face-saving exit strategy. If he can latch on to Ukraine not joining NATO, even in the short term, he might consider it a win. That said, I tend to doubt it, because EU membership is what kicked everything on back in 2014 with the Euromaidan protests, and if the Ukrainian military is allowed to rebuild, they can always fight off the Russian military again, this time with EU countries kicking in support in accordance with Article 42.7 of the Lisbon Treaty. The EU might not be as bad as NATO in Putin's eyes, but then again, they're not likely on his Christmas card mailing list either.
Well, until Zelensky *ACTUALLY SIGNS HIS NAME* to a document that *EXPLICITLY STATES WHAT HE SAYS* and the Constitution is lawfully changed his words don’t mean ANYTHING.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-13-22, 10:44
Oh, so they did invade, but it wasn't pre-planned? Even though we watched the build-up for months, and were repeatedly told by someone on this forum with the same username as you that there would be no invasion? Huh, damn, I hate it when I accidentally invade a country with hundreds of thousands of troops. Or did they just get lost on the way back to their bases?
Hey! Shillin' ain't easy.
BURN!!!!:jester:
Asked about the capabilities of Russia's air defense systems, Air Force Gen. Mark D. Kelly said, “They’re operating pretty well when they’re operated by Ukrainians."
That’s quite an achievement, I think you’ve inserted Ad Hominem, Strawman, False Dilemma and Red Herring fallacies into one response.
The idea that the Russian military is performing up to expectations because they may still win is ridiculous. It is worthy of mockery, not debate.
Or perhaps you didn’t even read the thread title? It is literally a thread for some guys on the internet who want to discuss the performance of the Russian military.
In keeping with the art of Eastern European Orthodox Christians, I present to you the "Savior Madonna":
https://www.instagram.com/p/CaNMsmPOjV9/?utm_source=ig_embed&ig_rid=7a750122-6d90-4f67-9fd4-b48b444634db
I did post my evidence. I posted the goals Putin said were the ones he wanted to achieve and why he invaded - Ukraine not in NATO, recognition of the Donbas republics, degrade Ukraine military capabilities (and I think he said special weapons) and create a neutralized buffer state between Russia and NATO.
I then pointed out how Zelensky (he runs Ukraine) said NATO was off the table for Ukraine and he was “open” to negotiating the status of the Donbas republics. We also know that Russia occupied Chernobyl and another nuke plant and it appears they over-ran the bio “research” facilities. So, to some degree Putin has achieved his stated aims.
See? That’s an assessment.
@Alpha-17, those are fair questions, and my Ukrainian is non-existent, so it is fair to say I am interpreting it in the reverse as you observed.
https://youtu.be/rD3RyPHSqa0
As for Putin, this is more conclusive:
https://youtu.be/1qS6J-WbTD8
That said, my “assessment” albeit amateur, was based on actual statements by the involved parties and not on emojis and Facebook avatars.
That’s not really an assessment though. You took what was publicly stated by a former Soviet spy and accepted it at face value. What most of us are doing is taking an overarching look at the history of the region, the history of all the players on the map, the timing of the buildup and invasion, the diplomatic moves of each nation, the battlefield assessments of both the aggressor and defender, the intel maps showing unit locations and movements, and the economic losses and damages incurred.
All of that data, including the disinformation inform the overall assessment. Putin is working to delay the reinforcement of Ukraine, while he makes battlefield adjustments to his unworkable initial plans. He’s feigning openness to negotiation, while keeping as many options in play as possible.
At the same time, he’s working a disinformation campaign to undercut the Ukrainian and US/NATO positions on the global stage. The Nazi, bio weapons, about to join NATO narratives are intended to shore up the “legitimacy” of his invasion. All this while he’s targeting civilian population centers well outside his “stated goals” with Donbas and Crimea.
Zelensky is doing the same thing with his willingness to go to the negotiating table and “accept” Putin’s terms. It would give his forces a breather to regroup and re-equip, as well as give him more time to get Putin’s war crimes published and accepted.
Putin always wanted Ukraine. All of it. Now, he’s not sure he can take it without unacceptable losses, or risking WWIII if he goes to far to get it. If he sues for peace and gets to keep what he took so far, it might be enough to declare glorious victory for Mother Russia, by expelling the Western dogs from Ukraine and pushing NATO back on its heels.
The future isn’t yet written, so it could go any of those ways. But Putin never intended to stop at NATO and Donbas.
Whats wrong with the Russian army? I'd venture to guess the soldiers are victims of an incompetent hierarchy that siphons funds for equipment, training, and supplies to mega yachts, mansions, and bribes for assorted .gov criminals for one. Second reason, conscripts who don't really care and whose only motivation is mostly to have three meals a day. Can't really blame them for putting minimal effort to die for mother Russia, who would have aborted them anyway.
Diamondback
03-13-22, 17:25
The future isn’t yet written, so it could go any of those ways. But Putin never intended to stop at NATO and Donbas.
I don't think the Bastard Gay Lovechild of Napoleon & Hitler will stop even if he takes all of Ukraine. Up next Transnistria and Moldova "to ensure the safety of Transnistria," or the Baltics or Poland because of some nebulous manufactured threat, possiby even a False Flag, against Kaliningrad and "we must have a direct land connection to secure the integrity of our Oblast out there." (Nevermind that Kaliningrad is packed full of tactical missiles, already banned by treaty, targeted on cities in Poland, the Baltics, Germany...)
There can be no peace with the Bear until the buzzards feast upon the wolf in the Kremlin's corpse.
I don't think the Bastard Gay Lovechild of Napoleon & Hitler will stop even if he takes all of Ukraine. Up next Transnistria and Moldova "to ensure the safety of Transnistria," or the Baltics or Poland because of some nebulous manufactured threat, possiby even a False Flag, against Kaliningrad and "we must have a direct land connection to secure the integrity of our Oblast out there." (Nevermind that Kaliningrad is packed full of tactical missiles, already banned by treaty, targeted on cities in Poland, the Baltics, Germany...)
There can be no peace with the Bear until the buzzards feast upon the wolf in the Kremlin's corpse.
Agreed, but if they can’t complete the job in Ukraine…
Diamondback
03-13-22, 18:57
Agreed, but if they can’t complete the job in Ukraine…
True, the other possibility is that Ukraine is MEANT to stall as a pretext for Going Ugly Early with the big stuff. If Gay Pedo Vlad really is terminally ill, he may be content with just taking those who destroyed his Glorious Soviet Empire to Hell with him... much like how Hitler flipped out in his last days ordering the destruction of everything and everyone in Germany because "they didn't Nazi hard enough and were unfit to carry out his vision of utopia."
Business_Casual
03-13-22, 20:10
True, the other possibility is that Ukraine is MEANT to stall as a pretext for Going Ugly Early with the big stuff. If Gay Pedo Vlad really is terminally ill, he may be content with just taking those who destroyed his Glorious Soviet Empire to Hell with him... much like how Hitler flipped out in his last days ordering the destruction of everything and everyone in Germany because "they didn't Nazi hard enough and were unfit to carry out his vision of utopia."
Hitler didn’t order “the destruction of everything and everyone.” These threads always end up in the ditch. Accuracy matters. Hitler wasn’t in charge of anything at that point. Steiner ignored him. Doenitz was planning a post-Reich government. Himmler was running away in a Wehrmacht uniform.
Ready.Fire.Aim
03-13-22, 23:10
Looks like the Russians may soon have an economic strangle hold on Ukraine, even if they never capture Kyiv & replace the government.
Zaporizhzhia and Yuzhnoukrainsk are nuclear power stations with modern VVERs. They are equivalent to Western PWR nuclear power electrical generating plants.
Nine 1000 MWe units, lots of eggs in two baskets, 25% of Ukraine’s electricity generation at the two stations.
The Russian salient pushing towards Yuzhnoukrainsk is getting very close.
Russians already control Zaporizhzhia.
A mechanized infantry company or two apiece could hold each station, denying them to the Ukrainians- assuming they could get air dropped resupply.
Once in place, they would be hard to dislodge because artillery, mortars, and air couldn’t be used against them that close to major long- lead time assets like transformers, turbines, etc.
Those two nuke stations with nine big reactors generate 72.5 million megawatts of power each year.
Assuming 92% avg capacity factor which is typical for a PWR ( VVER) on 18 month fuel cycle.
9000x 24x365x92%
Poland would be the most probable interconnection point to buy power.
Currently Ukraine has no external electrical interconnections but plans are in place to establish them with Poland.
Polish wholesale power incredibly doubled last year and is at $196/megawatt. (180Euro/ megawatt).
Primarily due to European carbon permits and carbon trading recently implemented as a political response to global warming.
That would require Ukraine to buy $14 Billion each year in wholesale power purchases.
That is 10% of their 2020 GDP !
Just to purchase lost electrical output from the two nuke stations.
IF the power is even available to be bought and IF the grid infrastructure connections can support transmission of that much load.
Big Ifs.
And assuming extra demand does not cause price increases on the EU power grid market. .
Reference
In the observed period, weighted average monthly electricity prices on the day-ahead market in Poland increased from 163.95 zloty/MWh in January 2018 to nearly 830 zloty/MWh (179.79 EUR/MWh) in December 2021.
https://notesfrompoland.com/2021/10/07/electricity-prices-in-poland-almost-double-in-a-year/
Side note, if the Russian military is running out of fuel for their supply convoys, issuing expired rations, and driving trucks with dry rotted tires, does anyone want to guess what the state of readiness is for their nuclear arsenal? How many ICBMs actually fly? How many could hit anywhere near where they were aimed? How long would their response time actually be?
If only 10% of their nuclear arsenal works we are still in a lot of trouble.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-14-22, 01:31
Something has to give on these nukes. Russia is showing that it can't be trusted to have nukes. It is become a North Korea writ-large. In a sane world, we'd cut Russia out until they gave up their nukes. The reality is that we are going to see a proliferation of nukes to places like Japan, Korea, UAE, Poland. Hell, it I were Australia, I wouldn't put all my trust in alliances and history and familial links. Taiwan go nuke?
Like the thread I started a few weeks ago, welcome to the jungle.
Averageman
03-14-22, 06:09
I remember the US going in and removing the Nukes from Ukraine. They were not in good shape, water damage from sitting in flooded tubes, radioactive leaks etc. etc. Not a lot of PMCS going on, hell, we have our own problems keeping our own Nukes ready to launch.
Here's the thing, I have the ultimate confidence that they're "Fed" up as football bats.
Yeah I don't know how many are inop, but I would guess about 40%
In keeping with the art of Eastern European Orthodox Christians, I present to you the "Savior Madonna":
https://www.instagram.com/p/CaNMsmPOjV9/?utm_source=ig_embed&ig_rid=7a750122-6d90-4f67-9fd4-b48b444634db
We've been seeing more than a few new saints added to the canon; Saints Javelin and NLAW are the most famous, and their knight errant, Sir Stinger.
Agreed, but if they can’t complete the job in Ukraine…
The Red Army wasn't able to complete the job in the opening phases of the Winter War, but the same army that got dunked on by the Finns was sitting in the ruins of Berlin a few years later. Armies can learn and get better. While the Russians are a laughing stock right now, if they have time to absorb the lessons of Ukraine and Putin selectively purges the right grifters, I could see the Russian army become a real threat again.
Averageman
03-14-22, 10:13
if they have time to absorb the lessons of Ukraine and Putin selectively purges the right grifters, I could see the Russian army become a real threat again.
So, like the Oligarchs in power behind the scene will get punished. Really?
Putin might as well put the pistol to his own head.
I really think Putin doesn't have a year left.
How does Russian Air Force cut down on losses, easy, don't fly over Ukraine, tough luck for their tankers and supply truck drivers though.
Russian Jets Flying 200 Sorties a Day, But Firing from Their Own Airspace, Pentagon Says
https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2022/03/russian-jets-flying-200-sorties-day-firing-its-own-airspace-pentagon-says/363088/
"Russian warplanes are flying about 20 times more missions than their Ukrainian counterparts, though many never enter Ukrainian territory and simply lob long-range missiles from inside Russian airspace, a U.S. official said Friday."
SU-25 that made it home.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1503291900245204992
Business_Casual
03-14-22, 10:48
How does Russian Air Force cut down on losses, easy, don't fly over Ukraine, tough luck for their tankers and supply truck drivers though.
Russian Jets Flying 200 Sorties a Day, But Firing from Their Own Airspace, Pentagon Says
https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2022/03/russian-jets-flying-200-sorties-day-firing-its-own-airspace-pentagon-says/363088/
"Russian warplanes are flying about 20 times more missions than their Ukrainian counterparts, though many never enter Ukrainian territory and simply lob long-range missiles from inside Russian airspace, a U.S. official said Friday."
https://twitter.com/i/status/1503291900245204992
We’ve all seen ROE that don’t make sense and we aren’t sitting in the pre-flight briefs…
Right got nothing to do with them getting their asses shot off. I would argue that Russian ROE consists of "don't shoot your officers and only shoot other Russians if absolutely necessary" everything else is fair game.
Have the Russians committed their Shock or Guards Divisions .......... NO !!!!!
I dont think Russia is throwing the kitchen sink at this Ukraine thing.
They’re holding back, and for good reason. Why show the world your true capability, if you don’t absolutely have to. It seems like a trap to me, let the world think one way, while you’re holding a lot better hands than you’re playing.
If China TRIED to invade Russia, that would go nuclear almost instantly. This isn’t The Bear and The Dragon Tom Clancy book. Russia is still a nuclear powerhouse. I wish we’d have befriended Russia and not China all those years ago. China is the true threat to us, not Russia. China wants to subjugate the whole world under their control. We are all lesser people than them, the Middle Kingdom, we don’t deserve to live.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I dont think Russia is throwing the kitchen sink at this Ukraine thing.
They’re holding back, and for good reason. Why show the world your true capability, if you don’t absolutely have to. It seems like a trap to me, let the world think one way, while you’re holding a lot better hands than you’re playing.
I've been pondering the same thing. Though, admittedly, I could be giving them too much credit.
I thought the show of strength and capability was a deterrent to attack, now weakness is the deterrent?
I thought the show of strength and capability was a deterrent to attack, now weakness is the deterrent?
Putin is trying to take the territory with as little destruction as possible. He is expecting Ukraine to surrender.
Weakness still gets you bit. Look at the world testing us because we have Biden.
I do believe the Russian's expected this to be over in 72-96 hours, seize the airports around Kiev, airlift in troops and equipment to take the capital and have the armor roll in to consolidate . Install a puppet government declare peace and wipe out any pockets of resistance. They did commit top Airborne and Spetsnaz to assaulting the airports and kudos to Ukraine to reacting fast and not allowing them to take possession. For the rest why send your best and brightest to fight a piss ant third rate country. The biggest mistake was not going for total air superiority right off the bat and and I wonder if the idea of acquiring some of the Ukraine AF intact after "peace" was declared might have factored into the decision making. I also noticed they went out of their way to avoid infrastructure damage during the first few days of the invasion, not until it stalled out did they revert to the typical Russian blow everything up plan.
Of course this could also be part of Putin's master plan to use up NATO's entire stock of MANPAD's and ATM's.
1. Invade
2. ???
3. Profit
I thought the show of strength and capability was a deterrent to attack, now weakness is the deterrent?
A show of strength and capability are a deterrent to attack, but by showing your true capability, you're also preparing your enemies. The thought isn't so much that he is looking to deter by showing off his conventional strength, as his deterrent is nuclear. It's that he may be hiding it, to lull his potential enemy (the West) into a false sense of security. IF so, it would be very Sun Tzu.
Tactically and operationally it's kinda been a shitshow. Strategically, they have nearly taken everything of key value. Especially if they sack Odessa.
Cutting Ukraine off from the Sea of Azov and the Black Sea. Tech and MFG centers seized or encircled. Why go into the cities? Encircle, cut off, and wait. Shelling, bombs, and missile strikes to keep wearing down the will of the populace.
Not saying this is a big win by the "Keystone Kommies" but it ain't a loss either. Russia is in a pretty good spot to hunker down and play the long game here.
Biden will blink first chance he gets. Sanctions will ease, and eventually fade into obscurity. Work arounds will be made. Kumswalla will laugh and say "We won, now get in line for your next shot!".
Hope it don't go that way but it's what I expect.
In keeping with the art of Eastern European Orthodox Christians, I present to you the "Savior Madonna":
https://www.instagram.com/p/CaNMsmPOjV9/?utm_source=ig_embed&ig_rid=7a750122-6d90-4f67-9fd4-b48b444634db
:laugh:
Was wondering when the internet would come up with another saint....
So, like the Oligarchs in power behind the scene will get punished. Really?
Putin might as well put the pistol to his own head.
I really think Putin doesn't have a year left.
Ah, but comrade, this is Russia you speak of, not weak and decadent capitalist US. When have they ever been shy about busting out the pistols and poison when people in charge don't perform, or don't revolutionary hard enough?
I would not be shocked if there are a number "unfortunate accidents" and "suicides" after this, all of which will conspicuously NOT be Putin....
You don't think anyone meeting with Putin is sitting at the other end of a 120' long table because he's afraid of Covid do you.
SomeOtherGuy
03-14-22, 14:55
You don't think anyone meeting with Putin is sitting at the other end of a 120' long table because he's afraid of Covid do you.
So... umm... why are his guests sitting at the far end of a comically long table? It reminds of me of some dubious 50's movie with a 7-star admiral who demanded a 23-gun salute.
I get the concept of ego and showing off by being standoff-ish, but he had his two most senior generals at the far end of the same table. Why? I don't think it's coof, so is it fear of assassination?
Only people I've seen recent video of him physically close to were flight attendant school grads.
Because it's hard for someone to stick you with a poison needle from 120' away, also the flight attendant school grad video might be fake, Putin's hand goes through the microphone at one point kind of like our president has a fake office. Course it could be he just trusts Stewardesses more than his trusted advisors.
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/8528628/vladimir-putin-green-screen-clip-goes-viral/
Business_Casual
03-14-22, 18:46
I do believe the Russian's expected this to be over in 72-96 hours, seize the airports around Kiev, airlift in troops and equipment to take the capital and have the armor roll in to consolidate . Install a puppet government declare peace and wipe out any pockets of resistance. They did commit top Airborne and Spetsnaz to assaulting the airports and kudos to Ukraine to reacting fast and not allowing them to take possession. For the rest why send your best and brightest to fight a piss ant third rate country. The biggest mistake was not going for total air superiority right off the bat and and I wonder if the idea of acquiring some of the Ukraine AF intact after "peace" was declared might have factored into the decision making. I also noticed they went out of their way to avoid infrastructure damage during the first few days of the invasion, not until it stalled out did they revert to the typical Russian blow everything up plan.
Of course this could also be part of Putin's master plan to use up NATO's entire stock of MANPAD's and ATM's.
1. Invade
2. ???
3. Profit
I doubt you get your near-peers (Marshalls and Corps Commanders) to agree to invade a neighbor country on the border of NATO and the EU without a common understanding of the goals and the time table to achieve them. As well as a best-case and worst-case scenario review. He stated his goals clearly days before the invasion and they have been posted in this thread. Go back and read them.
I doubt you get your near-peers (Marshalls and Corps Commanders) to agree to invade a neighbor country on the border of NATO and the EU without a common understanding of the goals and the time table to achieve them. As well as a best-case and worst-case scenario review. He stated his goals clearly days before the invasion and they have been posted in this thread. Go back and read them.
Real question, do you consume cannabis or ethanol before posting in this thread? That’s not meant as an attack on you or those drugs.
The Russian army....my guess, they just don't care. Do the minimum, loot the local grocery stores for food and blow up random stuff. Leadership at its finest.
Business_Casual
03-14-22, 20:28
Real question, do you consume cannabis or ethanol before posting in this thread? That’s not meant as an attack on you or those drugs.
Real question, how many invasions have you planned and led? What did you do to convince your Army Marshals and Corps Commanders that you knew what needed to be done? I really think you are just trying to start an argument because you have a presupposition that leaders just snap their fingers and people do what they say. That’s not how the real world works and your thinking that is does shows you are a low-level cog type who is pushed around and berated by your boss (possibly a woman) instead of being inspired by leaders.
Real question, how many invasions have you planned and led? What did you do to convince your Army Marshals and Corps Commanders that you knew what needed to be done? I really think you are just trying to start an argument because you have a presupposition that leaders just snap their fingers and people do what they say. That’s not how the real world works and your thinking that is does shows you are a low-level cog type who is pushed around and berated by your boss (possibly a woman) instead of being inspired by leaders.
Well said sir...
Briefly, I forgot that I’m uninformed, weak, and stupid. Thanks for sorting that out for me.
Real question, how many invasions have you planned and led? What did you do to convince your Army Marshals and Corps Commanders that you knew what needed to be done? I really think you are just trying to start an argument because you have a presupposition that leaders just snap their fingers and people do what they say. That’s not how the real world works and your thinking that is does shows you are a low-level cog type who is pushed around and berated by your boss (possibly a woman) instead of being inspired by leaders.
Personal attacks will get this thread closed as quickly as others lately.
FWIW, the best Colonel I had the honor of serving under was a woman.
Andy
Personal attacks will get this thread closed as quickly as others lately.
FWIW, the best Colonel I had the honor of serving under was a woman.
Andy
Edit: In less words than I originally had here, women are capable of being great Officers, and I’ve been honored to see that first-hand.
My main point was that Mack7.62 had a pretty close to the ten-ring assessment.
Putin is aware of the sanctions that Biden Credits as severe consequences. He seems fine with it. It appears Russia is going to do as it pleases. While the world hashtags about it.
BURN!!!!:jester:
Asked about the capabilities of Russia's air defense systems, Air Force Gen. Mark D. Kelly said, “They’re operating pretty well when they’re operated by Ukrainians."
Yeah, sure…
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The Russian army....my guess, they just don't care. Do the minimum, loot the local grocery stores for food and blow up random stuff. Leadership at its finest.
Propaganda… the ultranationalists are “slamming the door” as they retreat.
Refusing to allow civilians to leave?
Cui Bono?
Random firing into civilian housing?
Cui Bono?
I’ve read & heard that when the Russians take over there is calm and things are more or less back to normal.
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We've been seeing more than a few new saints added to the canon; Saints Javelin and NLAW are the most famous, and their knight errant, Sir Stinger.
The Red Army wasn't able to complete the job in the opening phases of the Winter War, but the same army that got dunked on by the Finns was sitting in the ruins of Berlin a few years later. Armies can learn and get better. While the Russians are a laughing stock right now, if they have time to absorb the lessons of Ukraine and Putin selectively purges the right grifters, I could see the Russian army become a real threat again.
They are a “laughingstock” to those who don’t know what they are witnessing.
It was never the goal to storm the country. If you followed closely Putin and his generals said that REPEATEDLY. They are conducting classic siege warfare and it’s working so far. The ultra-nationalists are using the people as shields and it’s not the first time we’ve seen such action from retreating armies in history.
Everyone has been convinced that “Russia is muh enemy” so we have to remove that filter and be objective.
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They are a “laughingstock” to those who don’t know what they are witnessing.
It was never the goal to storm the country. If you followed closely Putin and his generals said that REPEATEDLY. They are conducting classic siege warfare and it’s working so far. The ultra-nationalists are using the people as shields and it’s not the first time we’ve seen such action from retreating armies in history.
Everyone has been convinced that “Russia is muh enemy” so we have to remove that filter and be objective.
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You and BC feel free to believe Putin. Some of us recognize this invasion for what it really is, an enemy of humanity. Still, the biggest enemy of the US is weakness within.
You and BC feel free to believe Putin. Some of us recognize this invasion for what it really is, an enemy of humanity. Still, the biggest enemy of the US is weakness within.
Learn something.
https://rumble.com/vx9k3d-the-truth-about-ukraine-from-film-director-nikita-mikhalkov-this-war-began-.html
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Learn something.
https://rumble.com/vx9k3d-the-truth-about-ukraine-from-film-director-nikita-mikhalkov-this-war-began-.html
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You assume too much. WAY too much.
They didn't have the budget to practice how they intended to fight, and in that austere environment where failure is costly and risks are simply not taken, you end up with leadership that will choose to look the part instead of having those failures in peacetime.
Same resource constraint on why they couldn't throw more troops at it - they just don't have the logistics back side to support larger numbers, and frankly that would have been too much of a giveaway on the intel front the same way.
China is going back to the drawing board for sure learning this, their shenanigans on practicing for nonstandard logistics support is likely also in rework pretty quickly, because they're realizing they can probably handle a low level conflict in the Spratlys, but that's likely the extent of their hard power projection capability, even despite some areas where they are technologically capable, their leadership structure is ultimately too brittle.
The topic here is why Russia can’t, or chose not to, conduct the war with good maneuver, combined arms, and logistics.
The topic here is why Russia can’t, or chose not to, conduct the war with good maneuver, combined arms, and logistics.
https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/40470477.jpg
Averageman
03-15-22, 13:31
The topic here is why Russia can’t, or chose not to, conduct the war with good maneuver, combined arms, and logistics.
Because they seem to have no logistics?
When your troops run out of gas and rob grocery stores for dinner, yeah, logistics suck.
So, like the Oligarchs in power behind the scene will get punished. Really?
Putin might as well put the pistol to his own head.
I really think Putin doesn't have a year left.
It's not hard to imagine him isolating the worst of the lot, using them as a scapegoat for the problems experienced, and letting that example get the others to pull at least a couple of fingers out of the pie. It's not like Putin is the first dictator in world history that depended on oligarchs, Politburo members, noblemen, etc for support, and had to clean house. Pretty much every leader of the Soviet Union had to do that at some point, and the examples likely go back to at least the Roman Empire, if not before.
They are a “laughingstock” to those who don’t know what they are witnessing.
It was never the goal to storm the country. If you followed closely Putin and his generals said that REPEATEDLY. They are conducting classic siege warfare and it’s working so far. The ultra-nationalists are using the people as shields and it’s not the first time we’ve seen such action from retreating armies in history.
Everyone has been convinced that “Russia is muh enemy” so we have to remove that filter and be objective.
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No, they're a laughing stock to the world at large. They're still a threat, but they've shown exactly how incompetent a modern military can be. Even if they ultimately win, they look far weaker now than they did before. Again, its the same thing that happened with the Winter War; the Red Army looked weak, and it invited Hitler to invade earlier than expected. And no, we're not seeing all of Putin's plans play out perfectly. Their logistics are a mess, so much so that he's calling on China for military logistic support (including Chinese MREs if the articles on the subject are to be believed). The slow down needed to shift from Blitzkrieg to siege warfare has allowed even more support to flood into Ukraine, and more weapons to be distributed to the populace at large. What's the current running joke, the fifth largest army in Europe is the collective Tanks and APCs stolen by Ukrainian Farmers? Now imagine trying to occupy that country. The US made a huge mistake not securing all the weapons of the Iraqi Army in '03, and paid for it dearly. The Russians are making an even bigger mistake if everything is going according to plan, and they're letting countless weapons fall into enemy hands. At the very least, even if they do install a Russophile in Kyiv, their stated goal of a demilitarized Ukraine is almost certainly impossible now.
It's not hard to imagine him isolating the worst of the lot, using them as a scapegoat for the problems experienced, and letting that example get the others to pull at least a couple of fingers out of the pie. It's not like Putin is the first dictator in world history that depended on oligarchs, Politburo members, noblemen, etc for support, and had to clean house. Pretty much every leader of the Soviet Union had to do that at some point, and the examples likely go back to at least the Roman Empire, if not before.
Be interesting to know how many Russian oligarchs have bolt holes in Switzerland, New Zealand, etc. :confused:
Diamondback
03-15-22, 15:33
It's not hard to imagine him isolating the worst of the lot, using them as a scapegoat for the problems experienced, and letting that example get the others to pull at least a couple of fingers out of the pie. It's not like Putin is the first dictator in world history that depended on oligarchs, Politburo members, noblemen, etc for support, and had to clean house. Pretty much every leader of the Soviet Union had to do that at some point, and the examples likely go back to at least the Roman Empire, if not before.
Worth noting that Khruschev was the first Soviet premier to leave office ALIVE, and even that was a near thing.
Averageman
03-15-22, 18:23
No, they're a laughing stock to the world at large. They're still a threat, but they've shown exactly how incompetent a modern military can be. Even if they ultimately win, they look far weaker now than they did before. Again, its the same thing that happened with the Winter War; the Red Army looked weak, and it invited Hitler to invade earlier than expected. And no, we're not seeing all of Putin's plans play out perfectly. Their logistics are a mess, so much so that he's calling on China for military logistic support (including Chinese MREs if the articles on the subject are to be believed). The slow down needed to shift from Blitzkrieg to siege warfare has allowed even more support to flood into Ukraine, and more weapons to be distributed to the populace at large. What's the current running joke, the fifth largest army in Europe is the collective Tanks and APCs stolen by Ukrainian Farmers? Now imagine trying to occupy that country. The US made a huge mistake not securing all the weapons of the Iraqi Army in '03, and paid for it dearly. The Russians are making an even bigger mistake if everything is going according to plan, and they're letting countless weapons fall into enemy hands. At the very least, even if they do install a Russophile in Kyiv, their stated goal of a demilitarized Ukraine is almost certainly impossible now.
The only thing missing from that Circus was a small car that had 78 clowns in full make up and regalia climbing out of it.
I would guess, about now the Russian's are reading German Officer's accounts of Stalingrad and hoping for the best.
Well and there is this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AynXoLjYrKc
Everyone has been convinced that “Russia is muh enemy” so we have to remove that filter and be objective
So you think Putin is your friend? That he's a good leader for his people? You want to go live in russia? No issues with censorship, prison camps, arresting people for protesting, etc?
He passed a law prohibiting any media from mentioning or describing the Ukrainian situation as an invasion or war. That it's just a military exercise.
We know this from multiple sources, including Russian ones.
Long before anything to do with Ukraine and certainly since, Putin has shown himself to be a blatant dictator who runs Russia as a private fiefdom along with the oligarchs where normal Russian citizens have little to no rights.
I know this as fact, with family members who represented US companies in Russia and traveled extensively there. Others who lived in ex-Soviet Russian speaking countries still under Putin domination through puppet leaders.
That information is completely independent of any Ukrainian provocation for interpretation issues of the current events.
I thought some of you were more aware and smarter than to chase the idea of that Putin somehow a good guy/innocent actor because of wackadoodle conspiracy theories in the US. I was clearly wrong.
You and BC feel free to believe Putin. Some of us recognize this invasion for what it really is, an enemy of humanity. Still, the biggest enemy of the US is weakness within.
It's that simple
Be interesting to know how many Russian oligarchs have bolt holes in Switzerland, New Zealand, etc. :confused:Worth noting that most of the countries that allowed for deposit citizenship or visas so-called golden passports, have canceled that policy.
Planes entering and exiting Russia or blocked from transiting / landing in the EU or other European countries.
Maybe they can leave by boat, but their yachts will be confiscated. I guess they could get out via train or car.
Worth noting that most of the countries that allowed for deposit citizenship or visas so-called golden passports, have canceled that policy.
Planes entering and exiting Russia or blocked from transiting / landing in the EU or other European countries.
Maybe they can leave by boat, but their yachts will be confiscated. I guess they could get out via train or car.
UAE..
One problem with the Russian Army is their Generals keep getting wacked.
Maj.-Gen. Andrey Kolesnikov, Commander of Russia's 29th Army KIA
Maj.-Gen. Vitaly Gerasimov, Chief of staff of Russia's 41st Army KIA
Maj.-Gen. Andrey Sukhovetsky, Dep.Commander of the 41st Army KIA
Maj.-Gen. Oleg Mityaev. He's a commander of the 150th motorized rifle division. KIA
UAE..Money talks, I'm sure
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-15-22, 20:43
The Ukrainians need to stop killing these generals. They are clearly idiots, they should leave them in place.
You assume too much. WAY too much.
[emoji16][emoji1][emoji2][emoji3]
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So you think Putin is your friend? That he's a good leader for his people? You want to go live in russia? No issues with censorship, prison camps, arresting people for protesting, etc?
He passed a law prohibiting any media from mentioning or describing the Ukrainian situation as an invasion or war. That it's just a military exercise.
We know this from multiple sources, including Russian ones.
Long before anything to do with Ukraine and certainly since, Putin has shown himself to be a blatant dictator who runs Russia as a private fiefdom along with the oligarchs where normal Russian citizens have little to no rights.
I know this as fact, with family members who represented US companies in Russia and traveled extensively there. Others who lived in ex-Soviet Russian speaking countries still under Putin domination through puppet leaders.
That information is completely independent of any Ukrainian provocation for interpretation issues of the current events.
I thought some of you were more aware and smarter than to chase the idea of that Putin somehow a good guy/innocent actor because of wackadoodle conspiracy theories in the US. I was clearly wrong.
It's that simple
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Uhhhh, sure thing, buddy. LOL!
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Another source of knowledge:
https://youtu.be/UMEpo6h3A-s
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220316/a4277449e0222ea8fe99b4babba42287.jpg
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Uhhhh, sure thing, buddy. LOL!
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSo your answer to someone saying they did not need MSM/lizard people/FJB telling them to know what Russian life under Putin is like as I had family with direct experience in Russia for many months is to post a bunch of juvenile memes?
Most of which don't represent my positions anyway.
Lame at best, maybe the tinfoil hat is wearing out?
So you think Putin is your friend? That he's a good leader for his people? You want to go live in russia? No issues with censorship, prison camps, arresting people for protesting, etc?
He passed a law prohibiting any media from mentioning or describing the Ukrainian situation as an invasion or war. That it's just a military exercise.
Censorship - Consider what happened here with the entire Corona mess when ANYONE tried to voice any opinions (contrary to the .gov narrative) or even question any of the garbage being fed to us by the CDC or the other 'experts'. They got the crap censored out of them...
Prison camps - Like what we did to American Citizens of Japanese ancestry that happened to live here during WW2? Internment camp / Prison camp - Same darn thing. When you are forced to stay there and can't leave of your own volition when you please - You are more or less imprisoned...
Arresting people for protesting - January 6 protesters ring a bell? How many of them are STILL in jail now? We don't like to call that a protest here. Instead we refer to it as an 'Insurrection'...
Prohibiting any media from mentioning or describing the Ukrainian situation as an invasion or war -
When have we EVER (other than the WW's) actually 'declared' war on any of the countless countries we have invaded / occupied / bombed etc.??? Nope, we are not at war - It is called (for example) OIF. 'Operation Iraqi Freedom'. We put that 'Freedom' word in there and it sounds great doesn't it?
Starting in 1991, with very few exceptions, our media was barred from filming or photographing the flag-draped coffins of service-members as they arrived back at Delaware's Dover Air Force Base from Iraq and Afghanistan. The barring of the media in that case lasted about 20 years...
I wish we had a current leader that gave a crap about our borders (and what was just on the other side of them).
Instead we got a dementia ridden, incoherent, old ass, can't even travel without shitting his pants, puppet that just put a big ass welcome mat on our southern border. Forget about the fact that we have actual immigration laws on the books already and forget about trying to 'lawfully' change them before acting one way or the other - Our president gets to pick and choose the 'laws' on our books that he has to abide by...
Censorship - Consider what happened here with the entire Corona mess when ANYONE tried to voice any opinions (contrary to the .gov narrative) or even question any of the garbage being fed to us by the CDC or the other 'experts'. They got the crap censored out of them...
Prison camps - Like what we did to American Citizens of Japanese ancestry that happened to live here during WW2? Internment camp / Prison camp - Same darn thing. When you are forced to stay there and can't leave of your own volition when you please - You are more or less imprisoned...
Arresting people for protesting - January 6 protesters ring a bell? How many of them are STILL in jail now? We don't like to call that a protest here. Instead we refer to it as an 'Insurrection'...
Prohibiting any media from mentioning or describing the Ukrainian situation as an invasion or war -
When have we EVER (other than the WW's) actually 'declared' war on any of the countless countries we have invaded / occupied / bombed etc.??? Nope, we are not at war - It is called (for example) OIF. 'Operation Iraqi Freedom'. We put that 'Freedom' word in there and it sounds great doesn't it?
Starting in 1991, with very few exceptions, our media was barred from filming or photographing the flag-draped coffins of service-members as they arrived back at Delaware's Dover Air Force Base from Iraq and Afghanistan. The barring of the media in that case lasted about 20 years...
I wish we had a current leader that gave a crap about our borders (and what was just on the other side of them).
Instead we got a dementia ridden, incoherent, old ass, can't even travel without shitting his pants, puppet that just put a big ass welcome mat on our southern border. Forget about the fact that we have actual immigration laws on the books already and forget about trying to 'lawfully' change them before acting one way or the other - Our president gets to pick and choose the 'laws' on our books that he has to abide by...
Oh, I forgot about all the m4c members whisked away to camps for espousing contrary positions.
Please. "What about"ing to try to equate the US with Putin's Russia?
You ready to go live there?
At least I agree with your last paragraph.
On topic; AJE’s analysis: https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/3/15/how-russias-tactics-are-evolving-in-ukraine
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-15-22, 23:02
Oh, I forgot about all the m4c members whisked away to camps for espousing contrary positions.
Please. "What about"ing to try to equate the US with Putin's Russia?
God, it's like I am back in the first year of college (back when Putin was still a KGB agent). I remember there were always commie libs excusing away communist atrocities with some contorted, half-assed "but what about" analogy to American history.
Here is an interesting analysis by Admiral Stavridis
Read more at: https://www.bloombergquint.com/gadfly/ukraine-invasion-russia-s-military-is-adapting-after-early-failures
Copyright © BloombergQuint
The Ukrainians need to stop killing these generals. They are clearly idiots, they should leave them in place.
Damn, that's a good point. Or maybe the Ukrainians are just targeting the good ones?
I'm aware that the Ukraine has worked against my political interests. I'm also well aware of the systemic corruption and other issues.
Is that supposed to make the Russian invasion OK? Am I supposed to condone their deaths cause 2016, and Trump, and Hunter, and ...? Yeah, cuz the rooskies are so down with American conservative philosophy?
So, what is your point exactly?
Averageman
03-16-22, 11:30
I'm aware that the Ukraine has worked against my political interests. I'm also well aware of the systemic corruption and other issues.
Is that supposed to make the Russian invasion OK? Am I supposed to condone their deaths cause 2016, and Trump, and Hunter, and ...? Yeah, cuz the rooskies are so down with American conservative philosophy?
So, what is your point exactly?
I've considered this a lot.
Neither of these Countries is my friend, they are both Interntional bad actors. I don't condone Russia's action, but nor do Ukraine's.
My thing is, Not my Circus, not my monkeys.
Yes Putin invading was wrong, but if were grading papers, lets have a look at everyone's sins.
See, simply none of our business.
I've considered this a lot.
Neither of these Countries is my friend, they are both Interntional bad actors. I don't condone Russia's action, but nor do Ukraine's.
My thing is, Not my Circus, not my monkeys.
Yes Putin invading was wrong, but if were grading papers, lets have a look at everyone's sins.
See, simply none of our business.
Multiple things can be true at the same time.
We have no friends. If we think we do, it's an illusion that gets us into trouble. I bet England, France, et al., would say the same thing. Allies, it's situational. But regardless of whether we like it, there comes a point when it is our business, even if only to a degree. Go to war? Oh, hell naw, fam. But isolationalism? Sorry, the 19th century called, they want their foreign policy back. The secret is navigating the rocks and shoals in the middle.
Averageman
03-16-22, 12:01
Multiple things can be true at the same time.
We have no friends. If we think we do, it's an illusion that gets us into trouble. I bet England, France, et al., would say the same thing. Allies, it's situational. But regardless of whether we like it, there comes a point when it is our business, even if only to a degree. Go to war? Oh, hell naw, fam. But isolationalism? Sorry, the 19th century called, they want their foreign policy back. The secret is navigating the rocks and shoals in the middle.
If saying "oh hell no" to Russia vs Ukraine is isolationism if we ignore it, is rather simplistic.
Someone from the right needs to point out the mutual sins of both sides and spew some logic before we end up with some sort of troops on the ground.
The Left is calling for us to become very involved.
Whiskey_Bravo
03-16-22, 13:06
A brief analysis by Peter Zeihan. I have watched some of his previous talks prior to Russia's invasion. This talk is a sort of update on some of his previous Russia / Ukraine talks now that Putin has actually invaded.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6iLvQPQLNU
Here is a longer one from back in February at Fort Benning maneuver warfighter conference. Has been interesting going back and watching some of his talks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcMQW1unBcs
A brief analysis by Peter Zeihan. I have watched some of his previous talks prior to Russia's invasion. This talk is a sort of update on some of his previous Russia / Ukraine talks now that Putin has actually invaded.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6iLvQPQLNU
Interesting video. I didnt know the situation in Russia was that bad.
If saying "oh hell no" to Russia vs Ukraine is isolationism if we ignore it, is rather simplistic.
Someone from the right needs to point out the mutual sins of both sides and spew some logic before we end up with some sort of troops on the ground.
The Left is calling for us to become very involved.
I did not imply that to be the case. Pointing out the two ends of the spectrum: US-involved war, and isolationism. We shouldn't be involved in a war. But nor can we sit and twiddle thumbs while Rome burns ignorant that if it does (burn), it won't affect the US.
For the record, the Russian people are lovely right up to the point they put on a uniform or are a decision maker. At that point, they become my enemy. I do know the delicious irony that I am as distrustful and paranoid of the Russians as they have been toward the West.
There are indeed mutual sins on both sides. And the US paved the way for this to happen. Doesn't negate that Russia if the MF in this.
If saying "oh hell no" to Russia vs Ukraine is isolationism if we ignore it, is rather simplistic.
Someone from the right needs to point out the mutual sins of both sides and spew some logic before we end up with some sort of troops on the ground.
The Left is calling for us to become very involved.
Well my heart agrees with them, but my head is still in charge and saying "Oh HELL No!!!"
I did not imply that to be the case. Pointing out the two ends of the spectrum: US-involved war, and isolationism. We shouldn't be involved in a war. But nor can we sit and twiddle thumbs while Rome burns ignorant that if it does (burn), it won't affect the US.
For the record, the Russian people are lovely right up to the point they put on a uniform or are a decision maker. At that point, they become my enemy. I do know the delicious irony that I am as distrustful and paranoid of the Russians as they have been toward the West.
There are indeed mutual sins on both sides. And the US paved the way for this to happen. Doesn't negate that Russia if the MF in this.
Well put.
Averageman
03-16-22, 19:08
I did not imply that to be the case. Pointing out the two ends of the spectrum: US-involved war, and isolationism. We shouldn't be involved in a war. But nor can we sit and twiddle thumbs while Rome burns ignorant that if it does (burn), it won't affect the US.
For the record, the Russian people are lovely right up to the point they put on a uniform or are a decision maker. At that point, they become my enemy. I do know the delicious irony that I am as distrustful and paranoid of the Russians as they have been toward the West.
There are indeed mutual sins on both sides. And the US paved the way for this to happen. Doesn't negate that Russia if the MF in this.
I agree with you.
I've been watching some Task & Purpose with Chris Cappy. He seems to have a pretty good grasp of the situation on both sides on the ground. Not overly political, but you can tell from his latest below he isn't too keen with us getting too involved. Some very interesting war footage and analysis. Check it out see what you think. If this guy is full of it. I'm sure I'll need some correction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Igq2fqa7RY4
A brief analysis by Peter Zeihan. I have watched some of his previous talks prior to Russia's invasion. This talk is a sort of update on some of his previous Russia / Ukraine talks now that Putin has actually invaded.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6iLvQPQLNU
Here is a longer one from back in February at Fort Benning maneuver warfighter conference. Has been interesting going back and watching some of his talks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcMQW1unBcs
Fascinating...Russia on the ropes. Did Peter imply that the Russians might launch as a last gasp or did I miss his point?
A brief analysis by Peter Zeihan. I have watched some of his previous talks prior to Russia's invasion. This talk is a sort of update on some of his previous Russia / Ukraine talks now that Putin has actually invaded.
We are replicating the educational collapse that Peter discusses.... Terrifying, we are about to follow the Russian collapse
Institute for the Study of War’s (ISW) take:
https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-march-19
One of the "weirder" things about this whole campaign is the use of social media. That link by @1168 is almost entirely reliant on intel from Facebook accounts of the Ukrainian General Staff's FB and Twitter accounts. The amount of information flowing through Facebook is amazing. Not to mention the whole hastage #stoprussia
Don’t forget that the Ukrainians know Russia’s tactics, and have been training for this day at least since Crimea was annexed, and maybe since Georgia was invaded in 2008 (anyone remember when Russia backed separatist autonomous regions in that war too?).
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Averageman
03-21-22, 18:30
One of the "weirder" things about this whole campaign is the use of social media. That link by @1168 is almost entirely reliant on intel from Facebook accounts of the Ukrainian General Staff's FB and Twitter accounts. The amount of information flowing through Facebook is amazing. Not to mention the whole hastage #stoprussia
What do you expect when our own CDC uses numbers from CNN?
In reality the logistical headaches for Russia are nothing new. Performance like this in their supply chain has been discussed and predicted for quite some time. It has been largely dismissed by our command chain at high level simply because it seemed unbelievable that something so basic could be done so poorly.
Russia is heavily reliant on heavy weaponry. Tanks, artillery, MLRS, etc. Their brigades are equipped with higher numbers of such weapons than Western armies. By comparison they possess about 3/4 of the trucks. Their entire logistics model is built around rail. They even have convertible rail cars to be able to adjust to other nations track systems. Works for depot level resupply. Supply at the unit level is the weak link. "Tanks before trucks" as a model looks good on paper, and the Russians have thousands of tanks in storage. But in the field trucks matter. Your effective supply radius is is your combat radius plain and simple. Tactics win fights, logistics wins wars.
Notice how Russian shelling of Ukrainian cities comes in waves? Yeah, I'm willing to bet that is resupply lag in action. Pootie Boi shoulda built more trucks. Every truck and driver the Ukes can kill is gonna pay big dividends.
In reality the logistical headaches for Russia are nothing new. Performance like this in their supply chain has been discussed and predicted for quite some time. It has been largely dismissed by our command chain at high level simply because it seemed unbelievable that something so basic could be done so poorly.
Russia is heavily reliant on heavy weaponry. Tanks, artillery, MLRS, etc. Their brigades are equipped with higher numbers of such weapons than Western armies. By comparison they possess about 3/4 of the trucks. Their entire logistics model is built around rail. They even have convertible rail cars to be able to adjust to other nations track systems. Works for depot level resupply. Supply at the unit level is the weak link. "Tanks before trucks" as a model looks good on paper, and the Russians have thousands of tanks in storage. But in the field trucks matter. Your effective supply radius is is your combat radius plain and simple. Tactics win fights, logistics wins wars.
Notice how Russian shelling of Ukrainian cities comes in waves? Yeah, I'm willing to bet that is resupply lag in action. Pootie Boi shoulda built more trucks. Every truck and driver the Ukes can kill is gonna pay big dividends.
You'd think they would have learned something from WWII where we literally saved them from annihilation by supplying a long list of gear, perhaps most important, the Studebaker US6 trucks they used to move men and machines, etc to counter Nazi warfare style, something banned from even discussing in the USSR due to nation pride of the commies.
I found this on Reddit earlier this morning, and thus it should be taken with a massive grain of salt. This is supposedly from a Russian media outlet discussing why so few Russian troops have been observed with optics on their AKs, including AK-12s.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51954907809_2eaf524f67_z.jpg
My weak Google-Fu has been unable to locate any source talking about this, so it could very well be completely fake or some disinformation. What made it worth sharing was the recently (and thankfully, dead) thread discussing those who have a preference for irons over optics. Who knew that the Russians used this forum to gether military and gunfighting theory? :blink:
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-22-22, 12:30
I found this on Reddit earlier this morning, and thus it should be taken with a massive grain of salt. This is supposedly from a Russian media outlet discussing why so few Russian troops have been observed with optics on their AKs, including AK-12s.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51954907809_2eaf524f67_z.jpg
My weak Google-Fu has been unable to locate any source talking about this, so it could very well be completely fake or some disinformation. What made it worth sharing was the recently (and thankfully, dead) thread discussing those who have a preference for irons over optics. Who knew that the Russians used this forum to gether military and gunfighting theory? :blink:
I read a book about American small arms thru the 1980s. There were to broad schools- massed fire and accurate fire. The gun you give depends if you are just looking at each rifleman as part of a volume of fire in a direction versus each rifleman being able to hit a specific target. My guess is that the Russians take the massed fire in a direction mindset. Our guys through the last 20 years have focused more on point target per rifleman focus. That might explain the difference on optics. That and even the post mentions night ops aren’t an issue for them. Anyone seeing a lot of NODs on Russians?
Just my thoughts on it. As I get older I get more into less-is-more, but I’d rather get into a gunfight with an optic- rifle and handgun.
I found this on Reddit earlier this morning, and thus it should be taken with a massive grain of salt. This is supposedly from a Russian media outlet discussing why so few Russian troops have been observed with optics on their AKs, including AK-12s.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51954907809_2eaf524f67_z.jpg
My weak Google-Fu has been unable to locate any source talking about this, so it could very well be completely fake or some disinformation. What made it worth sharing was the recently (and thankfully, dead) thread discussing those who have a preference for irons over optics. Who knew that the Russians used this forum to gether military and gunfighting theory? :blink:
How do you say " innagrass" in Russian?
The Soviet Union forgot to tell the military it was dissolving. They still use USSR-era TTPs, have little C3, and the NCO corps is just conscripts who have been in longer than the rest of the conscripts. Every intelligence community in the world is taking notes.
Sad thing is they had every opportunity since desert storm to identify and correct these deficiencies, and they didn't. Why the post-soviet Russian military did not evolve and emulate everything we did during desert storm and OIF is borderline insanity.
How do you say " innagrass" in Russian?
I don't know, but in the same vein as Okie's training grounds/"field tests", "Добро пожаловать на поля подсолнечника" is "welcome to the sunflower fields." For some reason, I'd hazard a guess that the Ruskies are learning some new lessons.
Diamondback
03-22-22, 16:02
In reality the logistical headaches for Russia are nothing new. Performance like this in their supply chain has been discussed and predicted for quite some time. It has been largely dismissed by our command chain at high level simply because it seemed unbelievable that something so basic could be done so poorly.
Russia is heavily reliant on heavy weaponry. Tanks, artillery, MLRS, etc. Their brigades are equipped with higher numbers of such weapons than Western armies. By comparison they possess about 3/4 of the trucks. Their entire logistics model is built around rail. They even have convertible rail cars to be able to adjust to other nations track systems. Works for depot level resupply. Supply at the unit level is the weak link. "Tanks before trucks" as a model looks good on paper, and the Russians have thousands of tanks in storage. But in the field trucks matter. Your effective supply radius is is your combat radius plain and simple. Tactics win fights, logistics wins wars.
Notice how Russian shelling of Ukrainian cities comes in waves? Yeah, I'm willing to bet that is resupply lag in action. Pootie Boi shoulda built more trucks. Every truck and driver the Ukes can kill is gonna pay big dividends.
If I was the Ukies, I'd exploit this... start jacking ammo convoys as raw material for VBIED's, then deliver via remote control.
One thing that I find surprising is that abandoned equipment is not being booby trapped or sabotaged.
Diamondback
03-22-22, 16:35
One thing that I find surprising is that abandoned is not being booby trapped or sabotaged.
Indicative of morale, suggests that the average conscript really doesn't want to be there doing this.
Sad thing is they had every opportunity since desert storm to identify and correct these deficiencies, and they didn't. Why the post-soviet Russian military did not evolve and emulate everything we did during desert storm and OIF is borderline insanity.
There’s no money for that. Their economy has no real industries outside of energy and arms exports, on top of being a borderline kleptocracy.
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Coal Dragger
03-22-22, 19:08
In reality the logistical headaches for Russia are nothing new. Performance like this in their supply chain has been discussed and predicted for quite some time. It has been largely dismissed by our command chain at high level simply because it seemed unbelievable that something so basic could be done so poorly.
Russia is heavily reliant on heavy weaponry. Tanks, artillery, MLRS, etc. Their brigades are equipped with higher numbers of such weapons than Western armies. By comparison they possess about 3/4 of the trucks. Their entire logistics model is built around rail. They even have convertible rail cars to be able to adjust to other nations track systems. Works for depot level resupply. Supply at the unit level is the weak link. "Tanks before trucks" as a model looks good on paper, and the Russians have thousands of tanks in storage. But in the field trucks matter. Your effective supply radius is is your combat radius plain and simple. Tactics win fights, logistics wins wars.
Notice how Russian shelling of Ukrainian cities comes in waves? Yeah, I'm willing to bet that is resupply lag in action. Pootie Boi shoulda built more trucks. Every truck and driver the Ukes can kill is gonna pay big dividends.
Henry Ford told those stupid bastards they needed to focus on building automobiles back in 1929. They didn’t listen then and still haven’t learned.
So your answer to someone saying they did not need MSM/lizard people/FJB telling them to know what Russian life under Putin is like as I had family with direct experience in Russia for many months is to post a bunch of juvenile memes?
Most of which don't represent my positions anyway.
Lame at best, maybe the tinfoil hat is wearing out?
Tell me how it is in Nazi Ukraine, please. Especially, if you are of Russian descent.
I’m all ears… [emoji897]
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There is no "Nazi Ukraine". Are there Nazi's in Ukraine yep, are there Commies in Russian, yep, does that make it Commie Russia?
Coal Dragger
03-22-22, 22:01
Just put the Putin shill on your ignore list. Makes the thread more useful.
Business_Casual
03-23-22, 05:46
Just put the Putin shill on your ignore list. Makes the thread more useful.
This attitude astounds me. We should hear all voices, question everything and come to our own conclusions. Censorship is wrong. You are allowed to disagree with people.
Coal Dragger
03-23-22, 08:27
I don’t have time for stupid people. Conspiracy theory nut jobs fall squarely into that category.
If you or someone else choose to become a nut job espousing unfounded propaganda, or other ridiculous nonsense that’s your right under the 1st Amendment.
It is my right to correctly identify such individuals as mouth breathing oxygen thieves, and ignore their ranting.
Just because we all have the right to free speech doesn’t mean we have the right to compel others to pay attention to what we have to say. Fortuitously this forum allows us to place those we find to be obnoxious on an ignore list, it’s a pretty useful feature. If this position annoys you, please feel free to add me to your ignore list.
Averageman
03-23-22, 08:33
or you can scroll past it and come back later and find out it wasn't a conspiracy theory. Kind of like the media and Hunter Biden's laptop.
Coal Dragger
03-23-22, 08:43
I’ve done that for as long as the member in question has been posting here that I can recall. I have yet to observe a post in all that time I found to be well thought out or useful. There is nothing leading me to believe he will suddenly become worthwhile to converse with. I don’t add members to my ignore list very often but when I do it’s after ample evidence that I don’t have any use or interest in their posts, and their posts cause more problems in a thread than they ever solve.
While the Russians are now doubt taking losses, they're probably doing far better than the highly controlled media claims. One of the better YT channels with guests who have quals and don't seem to be pushing an agenda:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmXKNzIYHtk
Averageman
03-23-22, 10:15
A supply chain says a lot about an Army.
If medical care, chow and ammo somehow can't make it to the front, people will move back to find that supply chain. So, when lines fail or falter that's why.
or you can scroll past it and come back later and find out it wasn't a conspiracy theory. Kind of like the media and Hunter Biden's laptop.
Things will be interesting the next time antifa/blm units take to the field and questioning the official narrative is unseemly.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-23-22, 11:43
or you can scroll past it and come back later and find out it wasn't a conspiracy theory. Kind of like the media and Hunter Biden's laptop.
You are right, because the pro-democrat nyt pretended not to know if it was really hunter’s laptop every conspiracy story ever is now true! I guess we will all meet on the hale-bop comet. You go on ahead, I’ll meet you there!
While the Russians are now doubt taking losses, they're probably doing far better than the highly controlled media claims. One of the better YT channels with guests who have quals and don't seem to be pushing an agenda
Thank you for the video. Interesting viewpoint.
Yet another low IQ thread for the impotent rage crowd.
It just never ends. :rolleyes:
Business_Casual
03-24-22, 06:27
Yet another low IQ thread for the impotent rage crowd.
It just never ends. :rolleyes:
Reasoned debate is a threat to the oligarchy, as you know, because their lies are self-contradictory. Better tactic for them is to stoke fear and anger and promote the change of a FaceBook avatar rather than a change in the corrupt system.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-24-22, 07:34
Reasoned debate is a threat to the oligarchy, as you know, because their lies are self-contradictory. Better tactic for them is to stoke fear and anger and promote the change of a FaceBook avatar rather than a change in the corrupt system.
I guess, for some folks, repeating Russian propaganda at every possible turn counts as an attempt to change the system.
We’re now a month into the invasion of Ukraine, and the Russians risk being encircled outside of Kyiv. Wait, what?
UK MOD update- "There is a realistic possibility that Ukrainian forces are now able to encircle Russian units in Bucha and Irpin."
https://www.forexlive.com/news/latest-update-on-ukraine-from-the-uk-ministry-of-defence-20220323/
Business_Casual
03-24-22, 07:56
I guess, for some folks, repeating Russian propaganda at every possible turn counts as an attempt to change the system.
If you are accusing me of spreading Russian propaganda, you need to have proof.
If you are accusing me of spreading Russian propaganda, you need to have proof.
Don't take it seriously. This is a tactic used by people to distract from the fact that they just don't like what you're saying, and used to avoid the issue and muddy the waters instead of addressing the merits (or lack thereof) of the actual argument. Typically employed by Leftists, but weak minded people in general, as exemplified by the joke: "Arguing with a Democrat is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the bird will knock over all the pieces, shit all over the board, and strut around thinking he won."
"Everyone who says anything I don't like is a Nazi"
"Everyone who says anything outside of the mainstream narrative is a kook, conspiracy theorist, or Russian propagandist"
Averageman
03-24-22, 11:42
Apparently, the US and Russia aren't talking. We've reached out, they simply aren't answering the phone and refuse to talk. Naturally we're concerned about someone dropping a nuke in Ukraine and they won't talk to us or answer the questions.
We've put it out there that if this goes CBRN, we are at war.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjBVfdFQ6AU
SomeOtherGuy
03-24-22, 11:52
Apparently, the US and Russia aren't talking. We've reached out, they simply aren't answering the phone and refuse to talk.
Those comments combined with the video starting-picture of Lloyd Austin III, he of mask + faceshield + mandatory mRNA jabs + oops got Covid-19 anyway, and Gen. Milley, America's least loyal general.... are we expecting the Russians to take us seriously at this point?
I'm impressed with the Ukrainians' defenses so far, and not so impressed with Russia either morally or tactically. But c'mon, all the blatant dishonesty, infighting and disloyalty in our own armed forces, combined with ongoing procurement debacles, terminal "wokeness" throughout the West, and a "president" that literally no one believes is competent or really in charge, and perhaps half or less believe was actually elected... what kind of intimidation are we going to present? And it's not as if any of our major Western allies / partners in crime have better leaders right now. It's all a joke. It's like a set-up.
Remember "America is back" baby, Saudi Arabia and UAE are taking Putin's but not Biden's calls and I believe India is budding up to the Russian's also. Stolen elections have consequences.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-24-22, 17:32
If you are accusing me of spreading Russian propaganda, you need to have proof.
Well of course I didn’t mean you. Who could possibly think you were taking the Russian side in this?
Business_Casual
03-24-22, 18:30
Well of course I didn’t mean you. Who could possibly think you were taking the Russian side in this?
It is rare that a Moderator is a troll.
Are you getting the ground truth from the M5M on the real situation in the Ukraine, Russia’s goals and objectives and the actual Ukrainian capabilities assessment?
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