View Full Version : Are short barrel ARs on their way out for general purpose rifle?
BoringGuy45
03-22-22, 21:24
For a long time, it seemed like 10.5 to 12.5" bbl ARs were the go for tactical LE and SOF units, as well as those who wanted a SHTF rifle. However, I was wondering if these shorter barrels are falling out of favor for general purpose now due the increase of LPVO use, the increased rail length options on 14.5-16" barrelled rifles, better velocity, etc? Or is compactness still winning the day?
bamashooter
03-23-22, 07:56
Are short barrel ARs on their way out for general purpose rifle?
No.
I would also agree that they are not on the way out. I would not want a general purpose rifle shorter than 14.5." With that said I do have two AR pistols (8.5" 5.56 and 11" 7.62x39) and both are fun.
I think it has to do with intended use of the rifle. For home defense and out to 250-300yrds (repeatable accuracy w/ red dot). However, for a "GP" or "Recce" rifle with a capability of 500yrds +, then a 14.5-16" with an LPVO is obviously preferred. This is why the 13.7" and 13.9"'s are becoming more and more popular, Red dot or Eotechs with magnifiers helping to bridge the gap. The real answer is that there is no perfect setup, and that there will always be positives and negatives to certain setup for certain situations.
I can’t say whether they are on their way “out” in general. Probably not. But I do feel like I’ve been coming to prefer my longer guns over my SBRs. 20” ARs are currently just about my favorite thing to shoot. Maybe because I’m getting older and “high speed” tactical CQB stuff now seems much less “cool” to me so I prioritize stand-off capability over compactness?
My GP rifle is a 12.5”, so no, they are not on the way out, for me.
What is "short"? and what is "general purpose"? Seems like that could vary as widely as the opinions to come.
They are all tools in the tool box, I would classify the short barrels as specialty tools not general purpose. So for room clearing, vehicle use, back pack carry, passive aiming under NOD's a short barrel with a red dot works best. Bouncing around the desert a longer barrel with magnified optic is going to work better, not that the short barrel won't work, just that a different tool will work better.
What is "short"? and what is "general purpose"? Seems like that could vary as widely as the opinions to come.
10.5 to 12.5" bbl ARs
I’m interpreting GP to be the weekly beater, rather than something I shoot/train with periodically, or mainly pull out for specific or specialized purposes. The US Army considers the M4a1 carbine a GP gun.
So not LE or SOF, so can't speak for those currently in those roles. But I say no.
The arguements for shorter barrel length on a general purpose carbine remain unchanged. The environment of deployment and use of the weapon remains unchanged. The advantage of longer barrels in specific criteria has always been true and their use will no doubt continue in those applications where they have an advantage.
Mission and operational environment drives the gear.
11.5 is probably one of the most common barrel lengths at this point. If companies would get off their ass and start producing a variety of 12.5 options, that’d probably see a huge spike in usage. Of course, pistol braces and all that BS will always play a role in limiting commonality.
I assume most people are aware but some of SOCOM is transitioning to 11.5s following the USASOC URGI program.
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The US Army considers the M4a1 carbine a GP gun.
That's kinda where I'm leaning. But going beyond the length... Are irons GP? RDS? Suppressor?
When we toss a carbine in the back of the truck to paint steel. An RDS and Suppressor are nice in a GP gun that you might fire at unknown desert threats.
That's kind of a GP gun that can shoot anything from contact to 3 to 4 hundred yards.
A lot of folks jumped into the AR pistol with the advent of the pistol brace. Those could definitely fall out of favor depending on how that upcoming ruling goes.
I think the novelty, exploration phase, and rapid expansion in hardware availability is no longer happening because that market is now somewhat more saturated overall... and that people have figured out that a lightweight 14.X carbine equipped similarly can do a lot of the same things.
Not a dead concept, it's still absolutely solid... just one that isn't experiencing the growth it was a few years ago because those final answers ended up being quite useful, but supply finally caught up with demand and now it's mostly saturated.
If companies would get off their ass and start producing a variety of 12.5 options, that’d probably see a huge spike in usage.
And also if other companies would get off their asses and make 11”-11.5” handguards.
And yeah, 11.5” URGIs are a thing. I won’t call the Mk18 dead or obsolete, but the new 11.5” guns are better, IMO. I wish we’d have gone KAC, though.
An RDS and Suppressor are nice in a GP gun that you might fire at unknown desert threats.
That's kind of a GP gun that can shoot anything from contact to 3 to 4 hundred yards.
For me, thats a 12.5” with a dot and a magnifier, with a K-can, sling, IR and white light devices.
For me, thats a 12.5” with a dot and a magnifier, with a K-can, sling, IR and white light devices.
That works.
titsonritz
03-23-22, 11:13
I have a 12.5" Criterion Core on a "pistol" build that I like quite a bit, but my general purpose AR has 16" and LPVO, it is backed up by a 14.5"
Not according to our sales data.
We're selling (out) nearly equal numbers of 11.5 , 12.5 and 14.5 HF CL barrels.
For a long time, it seemed like 10.5 to 12.5" bbl ARs were the go for tactical LE and SOF units, as well as those who wanted a SHTF rifle. However, I was wondering if these shorter barrels are falling out of favor for general purpose now due the increase of LPVO use, the increased rail length options on 14.5-16" barrelled rifles, better velocity, etc? Or is compactness still winning the day?
11.5 is probably one of the most common barrel lengths at this point. If companies would get off their ass and start producing a variety of 12.5 options, that’d probably see a huge spike in usage. Of course, pistol braces and all that BS will always play a role in limiting commonality.
I assume most people are aware but some of SOCOM is transitioning to 11.5s following the USASOC URGI program.
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In had heard that they were using 12.5" and 14.5" for the most part. For those of us not in the know about USASOC URGI program....what is it?
Five_Point_Five_Six
03-23-22, 12:33
If you follow Instagram trends and reddit, yes they are.
If you follow reality, no, they're not going anywhere.
Mission drives the gear train, or it should. Look at the world you live in, what are realistic engagement distances for you? What is the most likely engagement scenario that you may face? What are your skills and training? Once you answer those questions to yourself truthfully, pick a barrel length that works best for you and the environment you live in.
I suppose definitions matter.
As a civilian, I’ve never considered an SBR a “general purpose” rifle.
If I were to get pedantic about it, you don’t get to rifle until 20” but I won’t and assume the term rifle is being used generically.
In my world, 16”+ are and always will be general purpose guns, but that is just my perspective. If for no other reason than the extra regulations around anything less than 16”.
I don’t follow Instagram, twatter or facsist book, so what do I know.
Probably not much.
I have 11.5", 16", and 20" 5.56mm ARs in the safe. The one I find myself grabbing most often lately is the 20" rifle. Especially so now that I live in the high desert of NM with its low population and wide-open spaces.
It's set up simply (Magpul furniture, Vickers sling, FSB, MaTech BUIS, TA11H-G, and a Surefire G2X in an IWC offset mount) but it's easy to carry and can get good hits from 5 feet out to the current limit of my skill level. I still have the A2 on the muzzle, but at some point I might swap that for a Saker mount. We'll see...
And yeah, the SBR can get hits to the limit of my skill as well, but lately I just find the rifle easier to deal with. And no paperwork issues if I find myself on the rez or across the border to AZ.
At the end of the day, though, I don't think SBRs are going anywhere.
I can see much utility in an 11.5 to 14.5" barreled AR, whether you call it a pistol w/brace or a registered SBR (no there're shouldn't be a need to register them, but ATF).
But I cannot see any utility in a 13.9 to 14.7" Pin and Welded AR over a 16" barreled AR.
The machinations to "save" a max of 1.2" inches, depending on muzzle device chosen, (my 16" AR with VG6 Gamma measures 17.3") hardly seems worth it.
If you like it fine, it's your rifle do with it as you like.
But the end costs and lack of being able to easily change your muzzle device, all for a paltry 1.2" of handiness, seems specious at best.
In had heard that they were using 12.5" and 14.5" for the most part. For those of us not in the know about USASOC URGI program....what is it?
12.5s are not at all common. 10.3 MK18s are still all over the place but the program stepped up the shorty variant to an 11.5. You can Google plenty if you want, it’s just USASOC’s program to upgrade the M4 that some others (AFSOC at least) have started jumping onto as well.
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titsonritz
03-23-22, 14:15
12.5s are not at all common.
They should be, with all the great barrels out there...BCM, Criterion, Centurion, Black River Tactical & SOLGW all offer (or did offer) 12.5" barrels.
They should be, with all the great barrels out there...BCM, Criterion, Centurion, Black River Tactical & SOLGW all offer (or did offer) 12.5" barrels.
He means in .mil, and he’s correct. For context, my love of 12.5” barrels is in my personal stuff.
And also if other companies would get off their asses and make 11”-11.5” handguards.
And yeah, 11.5” URGIs are a thing. I won’t call the Mk18 dead or obsolete, but the new 11.5” guns are better, IMO. I wish we’d have gone KAC, though.
For me, thats a 12.5” with a dot and a magnifier, with a K-can, sling, IR and white light devices.
This, very much this. If there was more companies (especially "Gucci" companies) making 11.5" handguards, I believe you'd see a bunch more 12.5's out there. I really like my 12.5, and it feels and runs great with a K can as well.
12.5 is a good length. Just not very standardized yet. If they make a movie featuring a 12.5 everyone will have one.
The surge in interest in shorter barrels was due to the pistol brace. That interest has fallen off because of the atf's latest position on them.
The surge in interest in shorter barrels was due to the pistol brace. That interest has fallen off because of the atf's latest position on them.
I remember the first time I ran into a guy who had a "pistol brace" on a shorty... the very early onset of those things. (I just run SBRs). I was like.. Whoa... that's pushing it. I'm not one to be Mr. Helpersyndrome and lecture, so I didn't say anything, but I thought it was really an SBR. No one cares about SBRs in AZ anyway, but it was a sketchy work around at best.
My observation is that pretty much all the guys who have been in combat and actually shoot the shorter barrels are nearly always using a can on it. You know the guys on this forum and others. (Not the pistol brace fad or the guys who got to have one of everything)
It really makes me wonder if the love for the 10 11 12 inch by combat types isn't more that it's the longest you can go and still have a can in a roughly 14.5" (plus hider) form factor. Which has become a practical Norm for handling in vehicles and such. It's just a good form factor.
I'm a bit amused by all the people who jump up and down who say 1.5" doesn't make any difference on the 16-in versus pinned 14.5, then will wax eloquent on the wonderful difference between an 11.5 and a 12.3" barrel. :) That's pretty nuanced.
For use without cans, I'm sure there might be circumstances that an 11 or 12 in might be handier, but I really haven't felt limited by 14.5" plus flashhider form factor.
But that's just me and my conjecture.
I guess there is always: you can't be too short for stowing/hiding, except for when you need velocity mindset.
I remember the first time I ran into a guy who had a "pistol brace" on a shorty... the very early onset of those things. (I just run SBRs). I was like.. Whoa... that's pushing it. I'm not one to be Mr. Helpersyndrome and lecture, so I didn't say anything, but I thought it was really an SBR. No one cares about SBRs in AZ anyway, but it was a sketchy work around at best.
Yup, they may be short barrel rifles but they are appropriately barreled carbines.
BoringGuy45
03-23-22, 19:33
12.5 is a good length. Just not very standardized yet. If they make a movie featuring a 12.5 everyone will have one.
If I'm not mistaken, the 11.5 was the shortest they could get the Colt Commando to function reliably at the time, and the 14.5" was the shortest they could go that would mount both the M16 bayonet and the M203. So the 12.5 just got skipped over. It sucks, because it kind of splits the difference between the two: More compact than the 14.5, but more velocity and slightly more dwell time than an 11.5.
Trends come and go, the hard science of ballistics stays the same. My 18" LPR remains my absolute favorite AR, and the one I'd keep if I could only have one. Thankfully, I'm not so limited, so I have a few shorter ones as well.
The 12.5 needs an 11.5 MCMR and MK16 plus continuous/tapered barrels. Add in reasonable gas ports and I don't think there's a single factory offering.
gunnerblue
03-23-22, 21:16
I still prefer 11.5"-14.5" barrels because I primarily shoot suppressed and I appreciate the overall length with the shorter barrels and cans.
titsonritz
03-23-22, 21:48
He means in .mil, and he’s correct. For context, my love of 12.5” barrels is in my personal stuff.
Yeah, I get that, my point is why?
titsonritz
03-23-22, 22:08
The 12.5 needs an 11.5 MCMR and MK16 plus continuous/tapered barrels. Add in reasonable gas ports and I don't think there's a single factory offering.
Agreed on the first two, a Criterion Core (https://criterionbarrels.com/products/ar-15/ar-15-core-series-carbine-gas/?v=7516fd43adaa) fills the last hole pretty good.
I think two things are happening that are making the shorter barrels not as popular right now.
1. the pistol braces made short barrels all the rage for a while, but the novelty has worn off.
2. the rise of LPVOs.
As far as what I believe. No, the shorties are going to stay around and still be popular. Especially with professional shooter type. The shorter barrels allow suppressors to be used and not have a huge unwieldy gun. Someone touched on the other aspect, that for a large portion of this country a shorty is perfectly fine. Here in southern Az we dont have giant trees blocking our view everywhere and the mountains make for a lot of elevated positions. In my opinion, for my local, a 16 inch rifle makes a lot of sense.
The 12.5 is a really great length and a perfect match with a small can like the Turbo-K.
Check out our 12.5 HF CL barrels and uppers.
EXC gas system and suppressor optimized gas port for mixed use.
https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-12-5-OPTIMUM-Hammer-Forged-Chrome-Lined-Barrel-p258933205
The 12.5 needs an 11.5 MCMR and MK16 plus continuous/tapered barrels. Add in reasonable gas ports and I don't think there's a single factory offering.
The 12.5 needs an 11.5 MCMR and MK16 plus continuous/tapered barrels. Add in reasonable gas ports and I don't think there's a single factory offering.
Obviously not a factory option, but the 13.5" MK16 rails can be cleanly chopped to 11.7"-11.8" to match perfectly with a 12.5" barrel and it looks almost factory. I have a 10.5" MK16 with a 12.5" Centurion Arms barrel and like the setup enough that I'm currently building another nearly identical to it but going with a chopped 13.5" MK16 instead. Centurion Arms also has a new style gas block that is pinned on top instead of having a larger flat on bottom for the pin, and it is extremely low profile. Pairs very well with a MK16 rail.
The 12.5 needs an 11.5 MCMR and MK16 plus continuous/tapered barrels. Add in reasonable gas ports and I don't think there's a single factory offering.
BRT has 11.6 and 11.7 SLR handguard options, which I was eyeballing a couple days ago. Not your preferred handguards, but I believe pretty good
Agreed on the first two, a Criterion Core (https://criterionbarrels.com/products/ar-15/ar-15-core-series-carbine-gas/?v=7516fd43adaa) fills the last hole pretty good.
Whoops, I meant as complete factory uppers.
The 12.5 is a really great length and a perfect match with a small can like the Turbo-K.
Check out our 12.5 HF CL barrels and uppers.
EXC gas system and suppressor optimized gas port for mixed use.
https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-12-5-OPTIMUM-Hammer-Forged-Chrome-Lined-Barrel-p258933205
I know, I’ve been tempted by them before but they’re still built to order IIRC. Not necessarily bad but just goes to show that they’re not as common as just about any other barrel length.
Obviously not a factory option, but the 13.5" MK16 rails can be cleanly chopped to 11.7"-11.8" to match perfectly with a 12.5" barrel and it looks almost factory. I have a 10.5" MK16 with a 12.5" Centurion Arms barrel and like the setup enough that I'm currently building another nearly identical to it but going with a chopped 13.5" MK16 instead. Centurion Arms also has a new style gas block that is pinned on top instead of having a larger flat on bottom for the pin, and it is extremely low profile. Pairs very well with a MK16 rail.
I’m aware. I’ve been leaning towards a chopped MK16. CMT makes some 11.5s too. But my point is that BCM and G are large producers and have most offerings except my ideal 12.5 from the factory. G is the most confusing to me because they have damn near every other length and check all the other boxes already.
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It really makes me wonder if the love for the 10 11 12 inch by combat types isn't more that it's the longest you can go and still have a can in a roughly 14.5" (plus hider) form factor.
Yes, for me the 12.5” is like the longest short gun. Its in the Goldilocks zone between ballistics and handling. Velocity nips at the heels of the 14.5”s. Depending on the can, its about the same length as a 14.5”-16” without one. And when I take the can off, its not *that* much bigger than a Mk18, but with an appreciably longer rail; only about an inch shorter than a 14.5” gun’s rail. And I don’t really need the barrel to be any shorter than 12.5” for my purposes.
I can use a dot, and its perfect from 0-300. Or I can slap a LPVO on it and hit F-Types at 500 with ease. Velocity is adequate to engage any reasonable target under IR, and it doesn’t blow my NODs up with flash. 12.5” guns also don’t seem to eat blast baffles quite as badly as my 11.3” did.
12.5” guns blend all of the best features of the Mk18 and M4, and minimize the weaknesses of either.
Edit: Wake27, check Larue. I’ve got their 11” quad, and its pretty slim for a quad. Very solid and about 11.25” or something like that. They make a MLok version, also. Its about the same thickness as a URX4.
Five_Point_Five_Six
03-24-22, 10:18
Yes, for me the 12.5” is like the longest short gun. Its in the Goldilocks zone between ballistics and handling. Velocity nips at the heels of the 14.5”s. Depending on the can, its about the same length as a 14.5”-16” without one. And when I take the can off, its not *that* much bigger than a Mk18, but with an appreciably longer rail; only about an inch shorter than a 14.5” gun’s rail. And I don’t really need the barrel to be any shorter than 12.5” for my purposes.
I can use a dot, and its perfect from 0-300. Or I can slap a LPVO on it and hit F-Types at 500 with ease. Velocity is adequate to engage any reasonable target under IR, and it doesn’t blow my NODs up with flash. 12.5” guns also don’t seem to eat blast baffles quite as badly as my 11.3” did.
12.5” guns blend all of the best features of the Mk18 and M4, and minimize the weaknesses of either.
Edit: Wake27, check Larue. I’ve got their 11” quad, and its pretty slim for a quad. Very solid and about 11.25” or something like that. They make a MLok version, also. Its about the same thickness as a URX4.
A suppressed 12.5 with a red dot and an optional magnifier certainly checks a lot of boxes.
Obviously not a factory option, but the 13.5" MK16 rails can be cleanly chopped to 11.7"-11.8" to match perfectly with a 12.5" barrel and it looks almost factory. I have a 10.5" MK16 with a 12.5" Centurion Arms barrel and like the setup enough that I'm currently building another nearly identical to it but going with a chopped 13.5" MK16 instead. Centurion Arms also has a new style gas block that is pinned on top instead of having a larger flat on bottom for the pin, and it is extremely low profile. Pairs very well with a MK16 rail.
Extremely curious to see the chopped mk16! Or G could just make a mk14 or mk16 in 11.5"-11.7".... That'd be awesome.
Seems as though 13.7"&13.9" get a lot of praise as well. I really do like my 12.5" though!
ViniVidivici
03-24-22, 22:33
No, short barrels aren't on the way out, they have their place, and are handy as hell.
Mysteryman
03-24-22, 23:01
My observation is that pretty much all the guys who have been in combat and actually shoot the shorter barrels are nearly always using a can on it. You know the guys on this forum and others. (Not the pistol brace fad or the guys who got to have one of everything)
It really makes me wonder if the love for the 10 11 12 inch by combat types isn't more that it's the longest you can go and still have a can in a roughly 14.5" (plus hider) form factor. Which has become a practical Norm for handling in vehicles and such. It's just a good form factor.
I'm a bit amused by all the people who jump up and down who say 1.5" doesn't make any difference on the 16-in versus pinned 14.5, then will wax eloquent on the wonderful difference between an 11.5 and a 12.3" barrel. :) That's pretty nuanced.
For use without cans, I'm sure there might be circumstances that an 11 or 12 in might be handier, but I really haven't felt limited by 14.5" plus flashhider form factor.
But that's just me and my conjecture.
I guess there is always: you can't be too short for stowing/hiding, except for when you need velocity mindset.
There's a substantial gain ballistically between an 11.5 and a 12.5 and a substantial drop in gas port pressure as well. Overall size is moot.
Defaultmp3
03-25-22, 00:05
The 12.5 needs an 11.5 MCMR and MK16 plus continuous/tapered barrels. Add in reasonable gas ports and I don't think there's a single factory offering.LMT 12.5" middy with the Specwar receiver? TRIARC and SOLGW also make 12.5s with flush handguards, though those are more assemblers than factory options.
Extremely curious to see the chopped mk16! Or G could just make a mk14 or mk16 in 11.5"-11.7".... That'd be awesome.
Seems as though 13.7"&13.9" get a lot of praise as well. I really do like my 12.5" though!
I chopped a 13.5" MK16 to just fit a Criterion Core 12.5 with an ASR mounted can.
67621
I’ve almost given in to the temptation of a 7-9” 300 BLK. If suppressed, it’s still super compact and with subs, super quiet. I keep coming back to that as an ideal suburban HD weapon. And cheaper/more versatile than an MP5 clone, at least for the weapon itself.
Beyond that, an 11.5” suppressed and 12.5” unsuppressed have made me happy. Then again, so does the 14.5” and 16”. Who cares, they all have a purpose and need to be used.
LMT 12.5" middy with the Specwar receiver? TRIARC and SOLGW also make 12.5s with flush handguards, though those are more assemblers than factory options.
I’d forgotten all about the LMT. Triarc I should’ve mentioned as I’ve been considering using their barrel forever and just built an upper around their 10.5 barrel but yeah, forgot them too. SOLGW I didn’t forget, but last I checked, they only ever use government profile barrels which I won’t spend a dollar on. BCM’s 12.5 is the same way.
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I chopped a 13.5" MK16 to just fit a Criterion Core 12.5 with an ASR mounted can.
67621
Moist.
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I chopped a 13.5" MK16 to just fit a Criterion Core 12.5 with an ASR mounted can.
67621
Moist.
This is what I’ll do after I move this summer if Geissele or someone else doesn’t start offering what I want with reasonable availability.
I tried hodge and was less than pleased for the money. I’m trying Triarc now but jury is still out as initial impressions have it recoiling more than I’d expect. Criterion’s CS has a lot of negative reports as well. I’m tempted by BRT, but was hoping to keep this upper completely standard (another reason I’m not set on Geissele).
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titsonritz
03-25-22, 22:35
I chopped a 13.5" MK16 to just fit a Criterion Core 12.5 with an ASR mounted can.
67621
That is badass!! It almost makes want to tear apart my Criterion Core 12.5" build apart to do this and I have an 13.5" MK16 on hand. Oh decisions, decisions.
I chopped a 13.5" MK16 to just fit a Criterion Core 12.5 with an ASR mounted can.
67621You did a fantastic job, that looks great!
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I chopped a 13.5" MK16 to just fit a Criterion Core 12.5 with an ASR mounted can.
67621
Ohh I really like that! Nice work!
I feel like we need to petition Geissele to make the mk16's in 11.5". I'd definitely be in for at least one.
Ohh I really like that! Nice work!
I feel like we need to petition Geissele to make the mk16's in 11.5". I'd definitely be in for at least one.
I posted in their industry section on TOS at least a year ago. Feel free to go make another.
ExplorinInTheWoods
03-29-22, 06:27
If anything I think the 11.5 and 12.5 are gaining more traction. Now that the 11.5 uppers are being fielded by group dudes will clone those or say well that’s what those guys use. I do think with 13.7/13.9 that is probably gaining a lot of traction especially with the possibility of the feds ruling braces are sbr’s I see the pin and weld option becoming more and more prevalent
IMO, I think 556 barrels are trending longer to a certain point because there are alot of good options these days. Personally, I've shot LMT 10.5's for years, but since they have a couple good 12/12.5 inch barrels, I really think that either of those two barrels will replace my 10.5 since they really just shoot so much nicer.
I think once you go below that 12 inch mark, I really think something in a different caliber like maybe 300blk really starts to make sense.
they have a couple good 12/12.5 inch barrels, I really think that either of those two barrels will replace my 10.5 since they really just shoot so much nicer.
Nicer how? Smoother? You CAN get a 10.5 to run right with the right gas. I really love my 10.5... EXCEPT that it's so friggin loud. I put a can on it, and now I never really want to shoot it because it's no longer smooth. And I don't want to choke it down to 100% suppressed gas levels. :(
I think once you go below that 12 inch mark, I really think something in a different caliber like maybe 300blk really starts to make sense.
300blk rarely makes sense to me, but that's another discussion.
So what is the velocity difference between a 16" vs 20" AR barrels???
Dang! That's a question for 1995 or so. There was some rough formula by the barrel inch that calculated velocity drop, but it would depend on ammo/powder burn rate too.
So what is the velocity difference between a 16" vs 20" AR barrels???
Usually about 150-200 FPS when shooting M193 and M855 from my experience. Sometimes a little less. Depends on the ammo and the individual barrel.
Nicer how? Smoother? You CAN get a 10.5 to run right with the right gas. I really love my 10.5... EXCEPT that it's so friggin loud. I put a can on it, and now I never really want to shoot it because it's no longer smooth. And I don't want to choke it down to 100% suppressed gas levels. :(
300blk rarely makes sense to me, but that's another discussion.
I have 10.5, 12.5, and 16 inch, DI MRP barrels as well as a 12 inch LMT Piston barrel, and the 12 and 12.5 barrels really feel closer to what my mid length 16 feels like. I've never had any complaints about my 10.5 with Gemtech M402, but the 12/12.5 with a Sandman K are a night and day improvement over my 10.5 set up. I think the most impressive barrel is probably the 12 inch piston, as it dramatically changed the way that I feel about piston AR's as it shoots as nice if not nicer than my 12.5 Spec War barrel.
I am not really a proponent of the 300blk, but just feel that as barrels get shorter, i really think there are better tools for that job than 556. Could be 6.8, 7.62X39, 9mm,10mm, just all depends on the application.
I find 11.5 to 12.5 with a mini can to be a good balance.
I should be able to make good hits out to 500 with the 11.5. I have a 700yd range available once in a while. Next time out Ill see how far i can stretch it.
I would only look at other calibers if I needed a rifle with an 6-9" barrel, but havent needed that yet... and I really want to stick to 2 for now, 3 down the road.
Jeepman1320
04-02-22, 12:10
11.5 to 12.5 is in my opinion the go to general purpose barrel length. With a quality barrel you do not really give anything up for in terms of intermediate ranges with currently available ammunition. My agency issues suppressed 12.5" Triarcs to us SWAT guys and 10.5" to our motors guys (fit in the saddlebags). Patrol is still issued 16" guns, but that was only because when they were ordered the old hats pushed them for convenience sake (paperwork). I have one 20" barreled gun in the safe and its only for nostalgic sake, fixed carry handle national match, with every other AR is 12.5" or shorter. With an RDS the Triarc still outshoots most of us but we are able to get consistent hits at 300-400 yards.
My GP rifle is a 12.5”, so no, they are not on the way out, for me.
Mirrors my thoughts. With a can, it’s the perfect platform. Your choice of LPVO or Red Dot.
A friend and I did some drills against the clock recently, 1-6 v 4x Acog v red dot. The LPVO did not give up that much time. I feel like 12.5 + LPVO has you covered from 6-600 yards without a trade off that gives me any pause.
I would also agree that they are not on the way out. I would not want a general purpose rifle shorter than 14.5." With that said I do have two AR pistols (8.5" 5.56 and 11" 7.62x39) and both are fun.
I don’t think they are out, but I will say I shoot my 14.5” barrel AR’s better than the shorter barrels. But as everyone has said, they are tools in a tool box and you cannot go wrong with any of them
Shot a rifle match today with my 10.5 Triarc barreled SBR. Furthest steel was at 200, with a Sparc Solar and Micro magnifier, I didn't feel handicapped in any way. Obviously that doesn't speak to terminal performance, but I use 75gr Gold Dots or MK262 so I think I'll be ok.
indianalex01
04-04-22, 16:08
IMO, I think 556 barrels are trending longer to a certain point because there are alot of good options these days. Personally, I've shot LMT 10.5's for years, but since they have a couple good 12/12.5 inch barrels, I really think that either of those two barrels will replace my 10.5 since they really just shoot so much nicer.
I think once you go below that 12 inch mark, I really think something in a different caliber like maybe 300blk really starts to make sense.
I completely disagree with you. Especially with some of the loads out there. For example, Gold dot expands at low velocities. I deer hunt with a 10.5 inch and M318 SOST or Gold dot. 10.5-11.5 are solid. I bet my life on them. I have taken 4 deer from my shorties. They hit real hard. The size of them makes them a great choice.
indianalex01
04-04-22, 16:13
Shot a rifle match today with my 10.5 Triarc barreled SBR. Furthest steel was at 200, with a Sparc Solar and Micro magnifier, I didn't feel handicapped in any way. Obviously that doesn't speak to terminal performance, but I use 75gr Gold Dots or MK262 so I think I'll be ok.
Great post. The right load, especial GD 75 excel in shorties.
Great post. The right load, especial GD 75 excel in shorties.
I have to try some of those some day.
Shot a carbine match on Saturday. Most everyone was running 16-18 inch ARs but there were a few shorties, a couple AKs, and some 308s.
In my group we had a chick with a shorty and a mini can. I didnt talk to her about it but it looked like a Geissele Super Duty upper. 10.3 or 11.5, I couldnt tell. Most of the targets were between 100 and 200 yards with every stage having at least 1 target between 300 and 400 yards. She had no problem hitting the distance targets with her 55 grain ball ammo, when she was shooting right. A few times she was having issues due to rifle cant around a barricade though.
judgecrater
04-04-22, 20:24
My 10.5 shoots just as good today as the day I put it together.
turnburglar
04-04-22, 20:45
I dont know why people act like a mk18 is a spicy PCC. It's closer to what the ATF names them: "Short-barrel Rifle".
A 10.5 AR is plenty potent to get me 300 yard hits on IPSC steel with ease. The only issue I have shooting them at 400 is a lack of ability to spot misses, but that has more to do with my 10.5 having a red dot. My buddy has a 11.5 with a LPVO and smokes 400 yard steel no problem.
I don’t think short barrels are falling out of favor, none of the arguments for them have changed, nor is there new information. I run a 16” barrel just because I know it’s effective with almost any load. I don’t have to find that 75gdhp load or a a tsx or other specialty load. I want a barrel fast enough that even cheap xm193 will do it’s thing. I don’t find a 16” barrel obtrusive. But I’m not a door kicker either.
Coloradocarbine
04-05-22, 06:01
I have the PWS mk111 which I believe is 11.85”. Super handy and my favorite. I agree with earlier poster said about current ammo choices. With todays metallurgy there are a few choices that will still get you reliable expansion out to 300 yards. In 90% of situations that is more than enough. And being adjustable gas block, piston design, it’s a gem to run with a can.
My observation is that pretty much all the guys who have been in combat and actually shoot the shorter barrels are nearly always using a can on it. You know the guys on this forum and others.
It really makes me wonder if the love for the 10 11 12 inch by combat types isn't more that it's the longest you can go and still have a can in a roughly 14.5" (plus hider) form factor. Which has become a practical Norm for handling in vehicles and such. It's just a good form factor.
I'm a bit amused by all the people who jump up and down who say 1.5" doesn't make any difference on the 16-in versus pinned 14.5, then will wax eloquent on the wonderful difference between an 11.5 and a 12.3" barrel. :) That's pretty nuanced.
For use without cans, I'm sure there might be circumstances that an 11 or 12 in might be handier, but I really haven't felt limited by 14.5" plus flashhider form factor.
But that's just me and my conjecture.
I guess there is always: you can't be too short for stowing/hiding, except for when you need velocity mindset.As for General Purpose, both the Army and Marines are still using the standard 14.5 for generic ground infantry, with the 16-inch M27 for the Marine Auto Rifle / kinda-sorta DM, and the HK M110A1 for the Army's marksman.
Short barrels of lots of different configurations are typically for guys who stow or carry a lot but aren't necessarily shooting or in contact every day (especially with knuckleheads in the open shooting back) (exclusive of SOF guys working daily in capture-kill role).
The beauty of the M4/M16 is you can configure it for the mission or threat of the day simply by pushing two freaking takedown pins.
indianalex01
04-05-22, 10:00
As for General Purpose, both the Army and Marines are still using the standard 14.5 for generic ground infantry, with the 16-inch M27 for the Marine Auto Rifle / kinda-sorta DM, and the HK M110A1 for the Army's marksman.
Short barrels of lots of different configurations are typically for guys who stow or carry a lot but aren't necessarily shooting or in contact every day (especially with knuckleheads in the open shooting back) (exclusive of SOF guys working daily in capture-kill role).
The beauty of the M4/M16 is you can configure it for the mission or threat of the day simply by pushing two freaking takedown pins.
The Marine Corps infantry is primarily using the M27 now. Not just auto riflemen and DMR roles. Only the platoon Sgt and platoon commander is using M4. All others in infantry platoon carry M27 with suppressors.
I've tried just about every barrel length under 16", including meme tier 7.5", always end up going back to 16". I don't use an AR for home defense or have any occasion to use one in such a confined space, so for my purposes it just doesn't make sense to sacrifice ballistic performance to have a shorter rifle. But that's just my situation, they definitely have their place.
I would say no, the pistol caliber PDWs are dying. So many rifle caliber options for a SBR that performs better then any pistol round wish they could do. 5.56 rifles have been found to be bad shorter then a 10.5 inch length and if a person needs to go shorter they should look at 300BLK
Mysteryman
04-11-22, 20:31
I would say no, the pistol caliber PDWs are dying. So many rifle caliber options for a SBR that performs better then any pistol round wish they could do. 5.56 rifles have been found to be bad shorter then a 10.5 inch length and if a person needs to go shorter they should look at 300BLK
Short AR's (sub 10.5") aren't bad, they're sub optimal in the terminal performance aspect and suffer greatly in the reliability department. SBR rifles are effective. Too much talk and complaining about muzzle velocity, bullet style, bullet weight etc. Yes, there is a hierarchy of projectile designs and weights and some are better than others. The reality is that anything coming out of a rifle and entering a human body will result in a bad day. Ending the threat is the goal, killing them is not. If they die, great. If you miss and the threat alters course, great. Worrying about the minutia that isn't an absolute is pointless. Use the best ammo you've got, make hits, drive on.
(Zack991 not attacking you, just using your talking points, :p)
Coloradocarbine
04-11-22, 20:42
Short AR's (sub 10.5") aren't bad, they're sub optimal in the terminal performance aspect and suffer greatly in the reliability department. SBR rifles are effective. Too much talk and complaining about muzzle velocity, bullet style, bullet weight etc. Yes, there is a hierarchy of projectile designs and weights and some are better than others. The reality is that anything coming out of a rifle and entering a human body will result in a bad day. Ending the threat is the goal, killing them is not. If they die, great. If you miss and the threat alters course, great. Worrying about the minutia that isn't an absolute is pointless. Use the best ammo you've got, make hits, drive on.
(Zack991 not attacking you, just using your talking points, :p)
I’ve actually had no difference in reliability between short barrels and 16-20 inch rifles. Have maybe 3-4K rounds through 3 different short barreled ar’s and have had no failures that I can remember. On other hand I have had a handful from full size.
Moist.
This is what I’ll do after I move this summer if Geissele or someone else doesn’t start offering what I want with reasonable availability.
I tried hodge and was less than pleased for the money. I’m trying Triarc now but jury is still out as initial impressions have it recoiling more than I’d expect. Criterion’s CS has a lot of negative reports as well. I’m tempted by BRT, but was hoping to keep this upper completely standard (another reason I’m not set on Geissele).
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What didn't you like about the Hodge 12.5"?
Mine is smooth af (both unsuppressed and suppressed) and accurate.
What didn't you like about the Hodge 12.5"?
Mine is smooth af (both unsuppressed and suppressed) and accurate.
I had one of the larger port barrels, which I wanted for function but it felt very smooth (had a MAMS on it so…). I just could never get it to shoot as well as I’d hoped for the money and reputation. I had issues getting ahold of Jim/CS and went back and forth a little bit but wasn’t overly pleased there so I took it to d. Wilson. He got it to group well (around 1 MOA with a 10rd group IIRC) but I just couldn’t seem to get it to perform where I wanted for the money.
I had an FCD rail on there which is a great rail but I thought lacking (I strongly prefer seven sided rails and a bit larger diameter). So between those two and wanting money for something else, I sold it.
I definitely could’ve tried other ammo options and some other things most likely, but I went through a phase where I sold my Gucci stuff (14.5 and 11.5 KAC Mod2s included) because I have BCMs that have never performed noticeably worse and obviously have far less money invested in them.
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I had one of the larger port barrels, which I wanted for function but it felt very smooth (had a MAMS on it so…). I just could never get it to shoot as well as I’d hoped for the money and reputation. I had issues getting ahold of Jim/CS and went back and forth a little bit but wasn’t overly pleased there so I took it to d. Wilson. He got it to group well (around 1 MOA with a 10rd group IIRC) but I just couldn’t seem to get it to perform where I wanted for the money.
I had an FCD rail on there which is a great rail but I thought lacking (I strongly prefer seven sided rails and a bit larger diameter). So between those two and wanting money for something else, I sold it.
I definitely could’ve tried other ammo options and some other things most likely, but I went through a phase where I sold my Gucci stuff (14.5 and 11.5 KAC Mod2s included) because I have BCMs that have never performed noticeably worse and obviously have far less money invested in them.
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Fair enough. My 12.5” is the smaller port, and it might come close to replacing my 14.5” Mod 1 as favorite. I have the S-Lock, and love it as well.
Overall, I think 12.5” is the business. I barely notice any extra weight with a Mini RC2 on the end.
Hopefully, Geissele will come around to making a 12.5”. An acquaintance of mine replaced his Mod 2 uppers (11.5” and 14.5”) with equivalent G uppers, and has been more than pleased with gas and accuracy improvements over the KACs.
G SD in 12.5 makes so much sense and would absolutely force me to finally buy one.
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G SD in 12.5 makes so much sense and would absolutely force me to finally buy one.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYou and I both. As much as I like rolling my own to my specs, it'd certainly be nice to just buy one rifle vs sourcing parts from ten different places.
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Mysteryman
04-12-22, 21:30
I’ve actually had no difference in reliability between short barrels and 16-20 inch rifles. Have maybe 3-4K rounds through 3 different short barreled ar’s and have had no failures that I can remember. On other hand I have had a handful from full size.
How short are you talking about?
Without specifying what a "short" AR actually is, this conversation is rather pointless.
Without specifying what a "short" AR actually is, this conversation is rather pointless.
The OP did.
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I guess I forgot what the original post stated.
ARs in 10.5 to 12.5" length seem to be as popular as ever, probably more so recently due to braces. Their capability out to several hundred yards has been thoroughly proven. With few exceptions, the general lack of a need to end threats at this distance makes their reduced terminal ballistics a non-issue outside of military and police roles. Their capability in close quarters is unmatched, and they certainly work well between these ends of the engagement spectrum.
Fellow users' unwillingness willingness to jump through all the hoops and adhering to ridiculous regulations for SBRs takes them out of the general purpose realm as far as I'm concerned. Braces eliminate all the hassle surrounding registration and travel, but they could be rendered illegal almost without notice.
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