View Full Version : Stripped Lower.....Two Day Wait??
twodollarbill
12-18-08, 11:05
Did my dealer F*ckup and cost me another $8.00?
It's been a month since I bought anything that required calling my info in for approval.
My dealer got these NEW yellow sheets, he said the instructions now stated that if it was a "receiver only"
he was to mark the form "other", not "rifle/long gun" as he has done before.
While phoning it in, he got to the line stated "other", the lady on the other end said she had to stop the authorization.
My dealer had this dumb look on this face and said to me "did you do something wrong recently??".
Anyway, an OTHER purchase is a OVER THE AGE OF 21 ONLY and requires a TWO DAY WAIT.
So my stripped lowers are waiting 48 hours for me to pick them up.
Eh! A couple of days isn't too bad. See if he'll give you a break on some ammo or something.
Hmmmm....something seems odd. I have not heard that an "other" requires anything more than the standard call in. But, you do need to be 21 years of age to purchase a stripped lower.
How did the dealer screw up? They are required to use the new forms as far as I know.
They werent required to do so until Jan 15 i thought
Seems the ATF is cracking down, gee I wonder why...
yep, weird indeed. last time i picked up some lowers from my FFL, he put "other" on there as well, though i told him to put long gun. didn't matter, though, cause 5 minutes later i talked out with my lowers.
It was my understanding that they were going into effect on 15 NOV 2008.
what ARE the changes, anyway?
30 cal slut
12-18-08, 16:51
I found this out recently.
The rule has always been that a stripped lower that can be made into a handgun can effectively only be sold by an FFL to a person who is eligible to purchase a handgun.
i.e., 21 years old and state resident (same state as FFL doing the transfer).
ATF just printed up a new batch of Form 4473's to address this.
I ordered a bunch of Spike's stripped lowers before the election and had it shipped to an FFL buddy of mine in another state that I wasn't a resident of.
(I wanted to steer some business and transfers his way).
The lady on the other end of the NICS call said that she could not approve the transaction if the lowers were completely stripped. They had to be complete RIFLE lowers OR complete RIFLES.
I don't know about the two day wait thing ... is there a two day waiting period on handgun purchases in Wisconsin?
Mr.Goodtimes
12-18-08, 16:52
why do you have to be 21 to buy a stripped lower? i was under the impression it was eighteen?
I found this out recently.
The rule has always been that a stripped lower that can be made into a handgun can effectively only be sold by an FFL to a person who is eligible to purchase a handgun.
i.e., 21 years old and state resident (same state as FFL doing the transfer).
ATF just printed up a new batch of Form 4473's to address this.
I ordered a bunch of Spike's stripped lowers before the election and had it shipped to an FFL buddy of mine in another state that I wasn't a resident of.
(I wanted to steer some business and transfers his way).
The lady on the other end of the NICS call said that she could not approve the transaction if the lowers were completely stripped. They had to be complete RIFLE lowers OR complete RIFLES.
I don't know about the two day wait thing ... is there a two day waiting period on handgun purchases in Wisconsin?
well that's why you just make sure your FFL calls them long guns. thats not a lie- the receiver is "the gun," thats why it's the part that has serial number and manufactuer info, and has to have FFL transfer. therefor, a stripped rifle lower IS a rifle.
that's how it's done in all the gun shops i've done it through- its the little FFL guys that do it on the side that get paranoid about it and don't want to call it a long gun.
What you just said is for your FFL to lie on the form so that they can get shut down or worse if something happens. The reason the ATF sent out these new forms was also to clarify the long standing ruules. I did not know this either until it was posted and discussed here (previously). A stripped lower is not a rifle because one could build it into an AR Pistol.
It has nothing to do with the "little guys" being paranoid it is what the ATF says. If your FFL's are doing it wrong good for them.
well that's why you just make sure your FFL calls them long guns. thats not a lie- the receiver is "the gun," thats why it's the part that has serial number and manufactuer info, and has to have FFL transfer. therefor, a stripped rifle lower IS a rifle.
that's how it's done in all the gun shops i've done it through- its the little FFL guys that do it on the side that get paranoid about it and don't want to call it a long gun.
bkb000,
If you have any doubts you can read it here for yourself under Instructions #18.
http://www.atf.gov/press/2008press/100308f4473_pt1_aug2008-sample-rev.pdf
bkb000,
If you have any doubts you can read it here for yourself under Instructions #18.
http://www.atf.gov/press/2008press/100308f4473_pt1_aug2008-sample-rev.pdf
either way, now that i think about it, the couple i've gotten from gun shops have been complete lowers- pistols don't have stocks.
is this the new form? i don't remember "receiver" being an option before
This is the new form revised August 2008.
either way, now that i think about it, the couple i've gotten from gun shops have been complete lowers- pistols don't have stocks.
is this the new form? i don't remember "receiver" being an option before
The yellow forms are the latest revision of the 4473. When the FFL calls NICS and relays your information, the operator will reply with one of four statuses: proceed, delayed, denied, or canceled. Proceed is the only reply that allows the FFL to complete the transfer. If the reply was delayed, that means NICS is going to research the check further and call the FFL back. When I was doing this, my FFL's policy was to wait a week after receiving a delayed status for NICS to call back. If they didn't call within that time, we would call them to make sure the status was still delayed before we were allowed to complete the transfer. When a check comes back delayed, NICS may call back in an hour, a day, a week, or never, so it's unlikely that your status was delayed because they wouldn't have told the FFL that they would call back in two days.
There is no federal wait time, so if the reply was proceed, the FFL is free to complete the transfer as per your state's laws. A quick check showed me that a 48 hour wait is required on handguns in Wisconsin. This leads me to believe that the law is worded so that a 48 hour wait is required on weapons other than long guns.
Unless things have changed since I last did things from the FFL side in May, there's no way NICS told the FFL to wait for a set amount of time.
All of this, of course, is assuming that Wisconsin uses NICS and not a state-level alternative.
To address a couple other points in this topic:
-New forms went into effect Nov 15, 2008.
-A non-complete firearm is now classified as "other". The FFL has absolutely no discretion in whether he can check "long gun" or "other".
-People buying any firearm must be over 21 unless that firearm is a long gun. This means that since receivers are now classified as "other" on the 4473 and not "long gun", the purchaser must be 21.
twodollarbill
12-18-08, 20:47
Spyw,
Perfect....nice post.
The date was moved back from 15 NOV 08. Here's a little more info:
To: All E-Check Users
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Form 4473 (Firearms Transaction Record Part I - Over-the-Counter) has been revised by the ATF. You may have already received these forms. The ATFs instructions have changed, and you must
begin using the new forms no later than January 15, 2009.
One of the important changes to the ATF 4473 Form is the inclusion of the option of "Other Firearm" in question 18. Other Firearm will be used for frames, receivers, and other firearms that are not either handguns or long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell. Until the NICS E-Check screen is modified, if you have a transaction involving one of these firearms, select the option of "Both" for the type of firearm. If "Both" is not available to you, please contact the NICS Customer Service for current information. You may refer to Section A under the Notices, Instructions and Definitions on the ATF 4473 Form if you need further clarification, or access the link provided below:
http://www.atf.gov/
Mark
This is an excerpt direct from the FBI website in relation to NICS and a DELAY response.
On the third business day of a DELAYED transaction, the NICS Examiner is required to call the FFL and advise him/her of their rights under the Brady Act to transfer the firearm after the third business day. If the delayed transaction cannot be resolved within the allowed three business days, it is at the discretion of the FFL whether to allow the firearm transfer. However, the NICS Section continues to research the case in an effort to obtain complete disposition information. Business days do not include the day the check was initiated Saturdays, Sundays, and any day state offices in the state of purchase are closed.
The yellow forms are the latest revision of the 4473. When the FFL calls NICS and relays your information, the operator will reply with one of four statuses: proceed, delayed, denied, or canceled. Proceed is the only reply that allows the FFL to complete the transfer. If the reply was delayed, that means NICS is going to research the check further and call the FFL back. When I was doing this, my FFL's policy was to wait a week after receiving a delayed status for NICS to call back. If they didn't call within that time, we would call them to make sure the status was still delayed before we were allowed to complete the transfer. When a check comes back delayed, NICS may call back in an hour, a day, a week, or never, so it's unlikely that your status was delayed because they wouldn't have told the FFL that they would call back in two days.
There is no federal wait time, so if the reply was proceed, the FFL is free to complete the transfer as per your state's laws. A quick check showed me that a 48 hour wait is required on handguns in Wisconsin. This leads me to believe that the law is worded so that a 48 hour wait is required on weapons other than long guns.
Unless things have changed since I last did things from the FFL side in May, there's no way NICS told the FFL to wait for a set amount of time.
All of this, of course, is assuming that Wisconsin uses NICS and not a state-level alternative.
To address a couple other points in this topic:
-New forms went into effect Nov 15, 2008.
-A non-complete firearm is now classified as "other". The FFL has absolutely no discretion in whether he can check "long gun" or "other".
-People buying any firearm must be over 21 unless that firearm is a long gun. This means that since receivers are now classified as "other" on the 4473 and not "long gun", the purchaser must be 21.
It was my understanding that they were going into effect on 15 NOV 2008.
My dealer told me Jan 15 2009 for the new forms when I picked up some lowers right after thanksgiving, by which I mean "required" to use. The new forms are already out there and valid from what he told me.
Chad
This is an excerpt direct from the FBI website in relation to NICS and a DELAY response.
On the third business day of a DELAYED transaction, the NICS Examiner is required to call the FFL and advise him/her of their rights under the Brady Act to transfer the firearm after the third business day. If the delayed transaction cannot be resolved within the allowed three business days, it is at the discretion of the FFL whether to allow the firearm transfer. However, the NICS Section continues to research the case in an effort to obtain complete disposition information. Business days do not include the day the check was initiated Saturdays, Sundays, and any day state offices in the state of purchase are closed.
Thanks. I knew our policy didn't exactly line up with federal regulation in that we would wait a week. I also wasn't aware that NICS had to call back on the third day if they didn't have an answer. Out of my hundreds of calls to NICS, I only had to deal with two delayed checks. I took a call from them once updating a status and another time I was dealing with a shady character who I probably would've denied to the sale to if the check hadn't come back delayed.
Most of my information on what FFL's do during delays comes from my company-policy training more than a year ago. Sorry for any discrepancies. :D
I get a delayed everytime I try and purchase. I never knew about it because the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia doesn't use NICS. After I got settled in AZ and got my CCW the problem went away.
Thanks. I knew our policy didn't exactly line up with federal regulation in that we would wait a week. I also wasn't aware that NICS had to call back on the third day if they didn't have an answer. Out of my hundreds of calls to NICS, I only had to deal with two delayed checks. I took a call from them once updating a status and another time I was dealing with a shady character who I probably would've denied to the sale to if the check hadn't come back delayed.
Most of my information on what FFL's do during delays comes from my company-policy training more than a year ago. Sorry for any discrepancies. :D
I get a delayed everytime I try and purchase. I never knew about it because the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia doesn't use NICS. After I got settled in AZ and got my CCW the problem went away.
Some states who have a waiting period sometimes wave that period for people with a CCW. I think Florida has one still, not sure though.
I get a delayed everytime I try and purchase. I never knew about it because the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia doesn't use NICS. After I got settled in AZ and got my CCW the problem went away.
The one thing I like about Iowa's Annual Permit to Acquire Pistols and Revolvers and our CCW is that either can be used during a purchase the bypass the background check.
Was there any particular reason they delayed you, or did they just not like you?
In Arizona if a person has a valid CCW then a NICS check is no longer required. Hence, it is not an issue for me any longer.
Some states who have a waiting period sometimes wave that period for people with a CCW. I think Florida has one still, not sure though.
Someone may have stated this and I missed it in my scan, but isn't the two-day wait a Wisconsin thing?
When I was up there I had to wait 2 days to pick up the pistols I bought. Under the new rules the lowers probably fall under the same category.
why do you have to be 21 to buy a stripped lower? i was under the impression it was eighteen?
Been 21 for anything other than a Rifle or Shotgun since Gun Control Act of 1968.
Mr.Goodtimes
12-19-08, 16:07
Been 21 for anything other than a Rifle or Shotgun since Gun Control Act of 1968.
renegade, does this apply to completed lowers as well?
If things haven't changed, a completed lower is still not a long gun and therefore still an "other" firearm.
renegade, does this apply to completed lowers as well?
Yes:
http://www.texassmallarmsresearch.com/BATFE/Forms/Instruction18.jpg
twodollarbill
12-19-08, 17:09
After waiting two days I stopped by my dealer today and picked up my lowers.
Yes, Wisconsin has a 48 hour waiting period for handguns and "OTHER".
If things haven't changed, a completed lower is still not a long gun and therefore still an "other" firearm.
i guess my gun-shop FFLs DID lie. oh well, no skin off my back. im sure it was ignorance anyway- there's no waiting period here.
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