View Full Version : .223/556 As a Deer Round?
Hey guys, i feel like a real nooblet here because well...i am. Ive searched the forum and beyond the Deer Jihad thread i havent really found any information on using the AR15 as a platform for hunting Deer and other "large" game as it pertains to my complete beginners situation.
I currently have an LMT MRP chambered in 5.56. I am being taken hunting for the very first time next week up in Georgia and while it wasnt specified exactly what i would be hunting im going to assume its Deer. While i am looking forward to this, im not all that interested in the whole killing aspect unless its a clean kill. I dont want to wound animals and watch them suffer so that i can make myself venison burgers for the next month or two.
If im going to shoot something i want it to go down with as little suffering as possible, ie a "clean" kill is what i believe its called.
Can a .223/5.56mm round be used for hunting purposes?
Just to give you an idea of how stupidly ignorant i am in regards to hunting, my response when someone told me that .223 would not kill a deer was, "ill just shoot it in the head, no problem".
"Can a .223/5.56mm round be used for hunting purposes?"
Many states prohibit .223/5.56 mm for anything but varmint hunting--check your state fish and game laws to see if you can legally use .223/5.56 mm for hunting deer. One of the advantages of 6.5G and 6.8mm is that they allow the AR15 to lawfully be used for hunting larger game in states that won't allow .223/5.56 mm hunting of deer and up.
If you are able to use .223/5.56 mm, I 'd recommend a non-fragmenting load for deer, as you will get adequate penetration and not damage as much meat--the 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3) and the similarly performing 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical--LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle--P223T2) are outstanding. The Swift 75 gr Scirocco bonded PT and 60 gr Nosler Partition JSP bullets are also good choices, as are loads using the Barnes all copper 45, 53, 62, and 70 gr TSX bullets.
There is no magic bullet that will kill ANY animal on Earth just by wishing it.
That being said .223 is legal in Georgia as the deer are smaller than they are in the North and West. I have seen many dead (and delicious) one-shot Georgia white-tail kills taken with M4-style rifles.
Most I have seen taken were with either 64-grain Winchester Power Points or Nosler Ballistic Tips between 100 and 200 yards (a number right off my Sergeant Major's back porch near Buena Vista, outside Fort Benning).
Familiarize yourself with what a white-tail killing shot looks like. Best advice is center-of-mass of the front half of the torso (not counting the neck) and you'll be penetrating the lungs. Don't freak out if your shot doesn't kill the animal immediately (like on TV) and it takes off running (deer and hogs don't watch TV so don't react like most new hunters would expect) -- nothing dies on-the-spot unless you put one through the brain or spinal column.
If you're hunting Georgia feral hogs and boars I'd recommend something heavier like a 68, 69, 73, 75, or 77 (hogs can take quite a bunch of lead). Your best eating hogs will weigh 165 or less (they are what they eat -- bigger and heavier than that and they begin to smell and taste like ass).
Shoot straight, and good luck!
Previous thread here, others available searching "deer."
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=22047
Thanks for the specific info guys, i was having trouble mashing all of it together in the other threads.
My uncle ultimately will make the decision for me but im confident in my AR and if hes ok with it i think im going to give it a shot...pun intended.
I guess im off to go see if i can find any of that neato ammo locally as im leaving on Monday.
The Winchester 64 gr JSP is also a good load that has worked well, however, if you are using it in an AR15, the version with a cannelure (RA223R2) has better functional reliability.
thopkins22
12-18-08, 21:21
Familiarize yourself with what a white-tail killing shot looks like. Best advice is center-of-mass of the front half of the torso (not counting the neck) and you'll be penetrating the lungs. Don't freak out if your shot doesn't kill the animal immediately (like on TV) and it takes off running (deer and hogs don't watch TV so don't react like most new hunters would expect) -- nothing dies on-the-spot unless you put one through the brain or spinal column.
Remember this, and give the animal a few minutes to die before you start looking for it...if the shot was less than perfect it'll just continue running instead of stopping and bleeding out. I've made made nice shots(missed the heart but tore up both lungs) with a 30-06 and seen the deer go a hundred yards or more before dying because I got up and immediately went after it. Unless your shot is PERFECT don't expect it to keel over where it stands regardless of caliber.
DocGKR is clearly on point(as always) with his bullet recommendations, I've used the Winchester 64 grain bullets with success.
Deer vitals...http://trailcameras.net/images/deer-anatomy.jpg
My experience has been that HEART shot deer run but a shot thru both lungs USUALLY puts them down right there. This is on Texas whitetail with 6m/m & .257 Roberts using Speer bullets. Had similar results with .44 Mag with 210 gr Sierra JHPs. These critters are only 8-10" thru. Remember tracking one all day that was gut shot with a .30-06. The advice to wait after shooting before going for the deer is excellent advice.
ICANHITHIMMAN
12-19-08, 18:55
I have a small bit of expecence using the 223 for deer up here in NY. My father in Laew owns a small vinard and is allowed som many nusence permits for deer in the summer months.
We head shoot them only with this round that not to say that with the right bullet is is not possable to kill the animal with a lung,heart or liver shot but thats just not what we do.
If I had to use the 223 and take a broadside shot I would opt for a handload and a nosler partition bullet. I am not aware of a lot of factory loaded hunting ammo in 223 for large game one I do know of is extream shock ammunition check out there website. I think what they have to offer would be right up your alley.
Army Chief
12-20-08, 04:58
Most who use this round for hunting applications are pretty up front about the fact that they consider it best suited for varmints --- not deer -- and I would have to second that.
Granted, I much prefer to use a bit too much power as opposed to too little, but the moral of the story is that I do not believe that the .223 can be counted on to reliably deliver the terminal ballistics that your prey humanely deserves. Others will disagree, of course, and I'm fine with that. I just prefer a round that leaves no doubt whatsoever, provided that I do my part placement-wise.
Disclaimer: I'm not much of a deer hunter, as my usual quarry is European wild boar.
Chief
Two weeks ago I shot a doe at 160 yards with one of the Dynamic Research Technologies (DRT) .223 79-grain bullets with excellent results. POA/POI was heart lungs. Deer went about thirty yards and folded. Had a small entrance hole and no exit, which surprised me seeing this deer, wasn’t very thick. The ammunition actually performed as advertised. There was a hole in one of the lungs that you could have put a tennis ball through. The rest of the immediate area was shredded pretty well for lack of a better description.
Like others, I wasn’t sure that the 223 is idea for deer hunting but with the DRT round I may reconsider. I have harvested may deer with arrows and can tell you even with holes through both lungs and the heart deer will not die on the spot. They need time to bleed out. I would not use the .223 to break a deer down by shooting the shoulder or spine as common with a lot of hunters using bigger calibers especially if you want a quick and humane kill.
Remember to study where the heart and lungs lye, as with quartering shots, be they away or toward, you may have to change your POA to be able to drive the bullet into the boiler maker.
After killing deer with bolt guns, shotguns, muzzle loaders, bows and crossbows I can tell you that I found hunting with the AR platform a bit strange, kind of eerie in away. Possibly because I got closer to the true intended purpose of the rifle vs. shooting on paper. Its something I believe you need to do
I killed a nice buck 2 weeks ago right at dusk in the woods with a 69 gr Sierra hollowpoint to the heart from about 50 yards away. Broke 2 ribs and destroyed the heart, but no exit wound and he wasn't even bleeding when I finally found him. He did manage to run about 50 yards away into the thickest, most thorn-filled brush possible before dying. Never found the bullet.
Using an ACOG for deer hunting is an odd feeling, but it actually works really well.
trukreltrog
12-20-08, 17:45
Blacktails around here are'nt real big. It's all about shot placement. Hit them bad with any caliber and they won't die. I've shot Deer with factory 55 gr. soft points with good success. .22 caliber center fire is legal to hunt deer with in Oregon.
Dan Goodwin
12-21-08, 21:22
My youngest son used a Hornady 75 grain TAP load out of a 16-in. Colt to kill a big doe in January (TN legalized any centerfire caliber two years ago, used to be 6mm and over). Just as dead as the buck and spike he zapped with a Remington 700 LTR with Tactical Bonded 165s.
TAP 75 exit wound looked just like a couple of young bucks my oldest son killed in '05 with a 12.5-in. Barrett M468 with 115 gr. OTM loads.
If the game department deems it legal, it'll work.
Last time I checked Colorado's legal min. cal./load for elk was 6mm/75 gr.
Three years back I was supposed to go to Maine on a hunting trip for the gun company for which I was working at the time. Checked the regs: in Maine .22 LR is legal for deer, but they require a huge jump in power for moose... .22 Magnum.
Talked to the guide we'd retained and he said a lot of people do all their meat gathering there with .22 Mags.
Think about it this way:
We use 5.56mm to successfully hunt smelly, bearded men weighing upwards of 180 pounds and armed with AKs and RPGS. Do we not trust the same cartridge, with appropriate bullets, to cleanly kill a 140-lb. herbivore?
At the risk of offending bunny huggers, it has been my observation that the men I've served with who've hunted extensively seem less stunned by the experience of having to shoot at human aggressors...and usually more likely to hit.
If you want to seem big game drop like on the TV hunting shows, shoot them through the shoulders: about 6-inches below the back straight up the front leg. They act like the earth has dropped from under them.
Three years back I was supposed to go to Maine on a hunting trip for the gun company for which I was working at the time. Checked the regs: in Maine .22 LR is legal for deer, but they require a huge jump in power for moose... .22 Magnum.
Talked to the guide we'd retained and he said a lot of people do all their meat gathering there with .22 Mags.
Not sure how you came up with that. .22 mag is still ridicules for deer.
Deer hunting: No firearm may be used
which uses .17 or .22 caliber rimfire cartridges,
except .22 magnum. No firearms of any
kind may be carried while hunting deer with
a bow and arrow during the special archery
season on deer and the expanded archery
season on deer, except that a person who
also holds a license that allows hunting with
firearms may carry a handgun.
Moose hunting: It is illegal to use .17 or .22
caliber rimfire firearms, shotguns using shot
loads or a crossbow.
http://www.maine.gov/ifw/laws_rules/pdf/huntinglaws_2008.pdf
I think I've posted these results on another thread here but I guess it won't hurt for to add for the record . . .
I've killed five deer with five rounds of .223. All from 16" barrel. First 4 from a Bushmaster, fifth from Noveske. All with a TA01 ACOG.
1 doe with a 68 grain OTM Black Hills at 20 yards. Doe bolted and ran 15 yds into a tree and was down. Both lungs completely scrambled rolled out like so much pink scrambled eggs. The heart was shredded into finger sized petals. Only small frag exited. On the range, it groups very well.
1 large buck with a 55 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw at 20 FEET - 1.5" hole bored through both lungs and recovered under opp side skin. Perfect textbook mushroom. Buck ran about 20 yards and was down. Oddly two broken ribs under the ENTRANCE wound. On the range, mediocre accuracy.
1 medium sized buck with a Win 64 grain PP to the neck at 100 yards. I wasn't as impressed as the buck was. Slug exited out the same side of the neck just a couple inches from the entrance wound shedding it's jacket at the exit. Didn't even break the spine. Go figure. Still dropped in it's tracks. On the range, mediocre accuracy.
1 small buck hit in throat from straight on with 60 grain Nosler Partition from Black Hills at about 30 yards. Buck fell backwards and was down. Penetration about 17" and tremendous 3-4" diameter wound channel the first oh 6-7 inches through front of throat. On the range, mediocre accuracy - maybe 2" 100 yard groups.
11-21-2008: late afternoon, a 6pt while still hunting along a north GA ridgeline in the Chattahoochie National Forest. One Black Hills 77 grain OTM into the front shoulder/neck junction at about 40 feet dropped him literally in his tracks. Bullet did not exit. Under the skin at entrance wound was a quarter sized hole into the chest cavity that broke shoulder bones. Chest cavity full of blood but I did not get a good look at lungs and heart. This has been an insanely accurate load from my Noveske N4 Recce upper, well under MOA.
Alpha Sierra
12-23-08, 20:41
I guess it can be done. But there are so many other, much better, alternatives that do not impose the the range or bullet limitatitions that .223 does. Which is why at the risk of being called a Fudd, I would rather use this:
http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp290/JRossy/guns/pic000.jpg
With its 6.5x55 chambering, I do not have to concern myself with the limitations of even the best .223 Remington bullets available. If I need to or want to, I can easily kill a deer-sized animal 300 yards away with it. If I need to or want to, I can anchor a deer in place by shooting his shoulder out and KNOW that my bullet will penetrate to the vitals in one piece to destroy his heart and lungs as well.
.264" bullets have incredible sectional densities and even the humble Core-Lokt will got through as much deer as it needs to without coming apart.
Army Chief
12-24-08, 00:23
I guess it can be done. But there are so many other, much better, alternatives that do not impose the the range or bullet limitatitions that .223 does..
Hear, hear. That is one beautiful Stutzen, too.
My hunting arm of choice is a reworked G.33/40 (BRNO small ring 98 built under German occupation) in the original 8mm Mauser chambering. A 196 grain Norma Vulkan traveling at 2,500+ fps tends to remove all doubt.
Chief
Alpha Sierra
12-24-08, 09:26
That is one beautiful Stutzen, too.
Thank you Chief. CZ 550.
My hunting arm of choice is a reworked G.33/40 (BRNO small ring 98 built under German occupation) in the original 8mm Mauser chambering. A 196 grain Norma Vulkan traveling at 2,500+ fps tends to remove all doubt.
Ohhh, please post pics. :)
Alpha Sierra
12-24-08, 09:29
1 medium sized buck with a Win 64 grain PP to the neck at 100 yards.
What made you decide to go for a neck shot instead of a heart/lung shot?
JHC: That is helpful having those records of your shots on deer with a .223. I've always been curious about this myself, since it's obviously a very lethal round on humans, but it's illegal in my state (WA) to hunt with anything small than 6mm in a rifle.
I also noticed something pretty interesting about my states caliber rules for deer/elk/bear. Here's the quote of the rules from the DNR. Emphasis added:
"Rifles—Elk, deer, and bear may be hunted with a minimum of 24 caliber (6mm) centerfire rifle. Cougar may be hunted with 22 caliber centerfire rifle. Rimfire rifles are not legal. Handguns must have minimum bar- rel length of 4 inches per manufac- turers specification, and fire a mini-mum 24 caliber centerfire cartridge."
Question: Why do you think they'd allow handgun calibers as small as .24 caliber for hunting deer/elk/bear?
Suggested answer: They are trying to be consistent with their CALIBER-based restrictions for rifles. However, this very easily reveals how ridiculous the entire caliber-based set of limitations really is for hunting. If you are going to limit calibers, you are going to have to do it by weapon type: what works for rifle will not work for handgun, etc. A .24 caliber rifle round is obviously incredibly lethal on a deer, but we all know how lame that even a .25, or a .32 caliber pistol would be on a deer at anything other than point blank range to the head.
Alpha Sierra
12-24-08, 12:12
Question: Why do you think they'd allow handgun calibers as small as .24 caliber for hunting deer/elk/bear?
Suggested answer: They are trying to be consistent with their CALIBER-based restrictions for rifles. However, this very easily reveals how ridiculous the entire caliber-based set of limitations really is for hunting. If you are going to limit calibers, you are going to have to do it by weapon type: what works for rifle will not work for handgun, etc. A .24 caliber rifle round is obviously incredibly lethal on a deer, but we all know how lame that even a .25, or a .32 caliber pistol would be on a deer at anything other than point blank range to the head.
Washington is the only state I've heard of that allows such a ridiculously inadequate handgun caliber to be used. Every one I know of either specifies .357" as the minimum bore size or use a combination of barrel length/muzzle energy/cartridge OAL to make sure adequate handgun calibers are used.
Personally the smallest handgun caliber I would use is .357 Magnum and then limit that to deer under 50 yards with handguns and under 100 yards with rifles so chambered. A .44 Magnum revolver and lever action rifle would make an outstanding combination for woods deer and black bear.
Personally the smallest handgun caliber I would use is .357 Magnum and then limit that to deer under 50 yards with handguns and under 100 yards with rifles so chambered. A .44 Magnum revolver and lever action rifle would make an outstanding combination for woods deer and black bear.
Agreed.
Alpha Sierra,
If I had a rifle THAT perdy, I wouldn't just hunt with it but sleep with it! In a classic like the Swede no less! Simply magnificent.
The deer wacked in the neck with the Powerpoint? Well for 30 minutes I watched him pick his way through a draw in front of me as I sat behind a fallen tree up near the top of this ridge. He was much closer for much of this time but as he walked and sniffed about there were just enough small pines etc obscuring a perfect clear shot with my tiny little bullets, that I wouldn't risk the shot.
So I watched him walk, and I was just grateful for the excitement of watching him and looking for the shot (not that different than bowhunting in that respect).
As he left the draw into thick cover I decided to rattle lightly and when I did, he popped his head and neck back out of the dense cover to see what the rattling was about - or so I presume.
At that point, I was lying supine across this fallen tree to get the angle on him. It actually turned out to be a pretty good rest and hence, the shot to the neck which was all he gave me.
I would probably taken an earlier shot at 30 yards had I been using my 30-30, .35 Rem or .308 though.
Alpha Sierra
12-24-08, 15:53
Alpha Sierra,
If I had a rifle THAT perdy, I wouldn't just hunt with it but sleep with it! In a classic like the Swede no less! Simply magnificent.
The deer wacked in the neck with the Powerpoint? Well for 30 minutes I watched him pick his way through a draw in front of me as I sat behind a fallen tree up near the top of this ridge. He was much closer for much of this time but as he walked and sniffed about there were just enough small pines etc obscuring a perfect clear shot with my tiny little bullets, that I wouldn't risk the shot.
So I watched him walk, and I was just grateful for the excitement of watching him and looking for the shot (not that different than bowhunting in that respect).
As he left the draw into thick cover I decided to rattle lightly and when I did, he popped his head and neck back out of the dense cover to see what the rattling was about - or so I presume.
At that point, I was lying supine across this fallen tree to get the angle on him. It actually turned out to be a pretty good rest and hence, the shot to the neck which was all he gave me.
I would probably taken an earlier shot at 30 yards had I been using my 30-30, .35 Rem or .308 though.
I had a feeling that you took the neck shot because that's all you could get cleanly. Very nice description of the hunt. Made me feel like I was there. I definitely prefer to hunt on my feet than from a stand.
That's right. Feet planted on the ground, up close, in heavy cover.
Merry Christmas!!!!
My 16 year old will unwrap his AR in the morning!!! (yes, it was a "panic" buy bought prophylactically in case the option was lost). At least my local AR "pusher" held prices flat to pre-ban.
Dang this Johnny Walker black label is smoooooth.
Alpha Sierra
12-24-08, 18:25
Merry Christmas to you too, JHC. Well done on getting the lad started with his own evil rifle.
I hear you on the golden nectar. Bourbon is more to my liking and about 30 minutes ago I finished enjoying a pour of Russel's Reserve 10 YO along with a smoke of some fine local tobacco blend in my favorite pipe (Savinelli Pisa 677).
Dan Goodwin
12-26-08, 11:37
HATT;
Not sure what "ridicules" means in the context of your post; guessing you're trying to say I'm ridiculous. My memory is that when I checked the regs in 2005 it was as I stated.
Regs may change from year to year: in Tennessee the only stricture for hunting rifles formerly was that they could not be full auto. This year's version prohibits SBRs and SBSs. I'm pretty pissed.
Furthermore, note that even in the 2008 version Maine wildlife folks deem .22 Magnum perfectly suitable for hunting their large northern variety of whitetail. That's a good bit short of 5.56mm power.
The only requirement for hunting moose appears that it be a centerfire cartridge. So .22 Hornet, .17 Rem/Fireball, .204 Ruger and .223 Remington would qualify.
Apparently the folks that live in that hunter's state believe SHOT PLACEMENT is the prime requisite.
You know, I've been hunting up till now this season with a battered old Remington 760 Gamemaster in '06 loaded with 180 grainers. Believe I'll bump a doe this weekend with a 16-in. .223/60 gr. TAP because I can.
HATT;
Not sure what "ridicules" means in the context of your post; guessing you're trying to say I'm ridiculous. My memory is that when I checked the regs in 2005 it was as I stated.
Regs may change from year to year: in Tennessee the only stricture for hunting rifles formerly was that they could not be full auto. This year's version prohibits SBRs and SBSs. I'm pretty pissed.
Furthermore, note that even in the 2008 version Maine wildlife folks deem .22 Magnum perfectly suitable for hunting their large northern variety of whitetail. That's a good bit short of 5.56mm power.
The only requirement for hunting moose appears that it be a centerfire cartridge. So .22 Hornet, .17 Rem/Fireball, .204 Ruger and .223 Remington would qualify.
Apparently the folks that live in that hunter's state believe SHOT PLACEMENT is the prime requisite.
You know, I've been hunting up till now this season with a battered old Remington 760 Gamemaster in '06 loaded with 180 grainers. Believe I'll bump a doe this weekend with a 16-in. .223/60 gr. TAP because I can.
I was saying that the Maine law allowing 22 mag was ridiculous, if you believe 22 mag is an appropriate deer cartridge then yes, that would apply to you also. Same with all the moose cartridges you listed. Just because the law allows you to do something dumb, doesn't mean you have to be party to the craziness. I can hunt squirrels with a .460 Weatherby. It wouldn't make me look very smart however.
Dan Goodwin
12-26-08, 20:27
OK. So Maine's wildlife management agency is dumb because they allow deer to be killed with .22 Magnums?
I've seen deer killed with .223 through .45/70. Shoot them through the heart/lung, they'll usually run 5-100 yards. Shoot them through the upper shoulder/spine and they drop on the spot.
If your state says it's OK to kill deer with any centerfire caliber, there's no reason not to use what you want...in my case this season (up through today) that's an '06.
Tomorrow morning it'll be a 16-in. AR and the small southern whitetail I might take will be within 75 yards of the muzzle. Pretty sure it'll die a short time after I squeeze the trigger.
P.S. I think it's cool you could hunt squirrel with a .460 Weatherby. Meat damage should be minimal!
platinumdude
01-04-09, 22:17
http://www.federalpremium.com/recommendation/default.aspx
Steelblitz
01-05-09, 01:02
I've seen deer killed with .223 through .45/70.
Oh hell yeah, 45-70, that's my deer slayer along with any other large game. I need to get my darn torn rotator cuff fixed though. The ole 1895g is painful on the busted shoulder, lol.
Dan Goodwin
01-05-09, 05:53
For your uses I'd bet a Barnes 250 X-bullet @ 1,500 or so would kill a deer like a lightning bolt out of your GG.
I mentioned a good article about Moderate Effective Loads in the 2009 Hodgdon newstand reloading guide. Think they had one for .450 Marlin with the above stats that kicks about like a .243.
Guess we're OT but my gripe with my first year Guide Gun is those dang ports. Only firearms I've ever noticed the blast from while killing something. Ears rang for days and I ain't shot it at game since.
Gonna have a deputy/smith at my department bob the barrel behind the ports, and thinking about loading milder ammo, too.
Which is why at the risk of being called a Fudd
Fudd!!!!
if i was conserned that it wasnt capable of taking a 100 lb deer i surely wouldnt rely on it to defend my family against 200lb men that shoot back.
Dan Goodwin
01-19-09, 14:37
Just to revive a feisty thread:
My 14-year-old son dropped a big doe and a small one last evening just past sundown with Remington 788 .22/250 shooting Remington's plain old 55 grain softpoint load.
Momma doe was shot quartering towards us at about 190 yards (will laser later) dropped on the spot. No exit wound.
Baby girl ran about 50 yards further away, presented the same target angle and dropped at the shot, too. Entry no exit, complete energy dump, DRT.
Of course the boy can shoot well and is very calm in the presence of game. My friends call him Killer Connor. Probably gets it from his Mom.
Need to get a good scope on that rifle; came with an old Tasco 4-12 with fine crosshairs... not optimal for last evening's hunt _ but it worked.
Couldn't find any 64 grain WW loads, or the Fed load with Nosler 60 grain @ Bass Pro in Nashville so just used what we had the gun zeroed at 200 yards with. May handload some X-Bullets or Noslers for next year.
P.S. We had a .260 Remington sitting with us, but he wanted to give it a try with the new to us piece. With no brush, standing shot at still animals I have no problem with .22 centerfires. At no point in the instantaneous death of these two edibles did I feel we were undergunned.
P.P.S. Tonight we dine on fresh grilled heart and tenderloin! Yum.
Dan, why didn't you use a .22 mag? That bruiser 22-250 just looks like overkill when the 22 mag is such a good deer cartridge. :p
Kudos to the young deer sniper Dan!
Dan Goodwin
01-20-09, 08:09
Feisty!
In our state it's illegal and doesn't carry enough freight at that range anyhow Hatt.:D
Thanks JHC.
We've taken 4 deer (legally) with 16 & 20" AR15s loaded with both BH-loaded 75gr Hornady (.223 SAAMI) and 5.56mm 75gr Hornady TAP. All have been one shot kills at 50yards or less. None have taken more than a couple steps. These rounds are very effective if you have relatively broadside shots, and you put them in the chest cavity. Upon field dressing the animals, I can say that they perform in a deer like they do in ballistic gelatin, i.e. extensive fragmentation with acceptable penetration. A TBBC, partition, or TSX would probably be a better choice, in general, as they provide more reliable penetration.
In testing Cor Bon DPX in both 55gr and 62 gr I found that they have alot of penetration while still expanding well, like 27" of gello if memory serves, I'll have to check my notes.
this thread should be loaded with pics, people.. c'mon. if i ever actually got anything, i'd have my dead ass deer pics up here.
Sorry, I just killed gello and a Crown Vic with the DPX.
Might still have pics though.
Dan Goodwin
02-12-09, 22:02
this thread should be loaded with pics, people.. c'mon. if i ever actually got anything, i'd have my dead ass deer pics up here.
OK, here's my youngest with the doe he got in Oct. '07 with Colt LW Match Target 1x9 twist, 75 gr. TAP and S&B SD CQB LE.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v704/elrata/ConnorsAR-15SchmidtandBenderShortDo.jpg
Here's the spike he took with a LTR with Leupold 3.5-10x40 LRT M1 and Fed Bonded Tactical 165.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v704/elrata/ConnorsLTRSpikeOct282007.jpg
And here's the two he took with the new to us Remington 788 .22/250 and plain jane factory 55 gr. SPs. He shot them too late for photographs in the field, we just dressed them and left them in the back of the truck till the next morning (very cold that night).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v704/elrata/Nos56forKillerConnor.jpg
very nice- your boy's already shot more deer than i have in 6 seasons
Dan Goodwin
02-15-09, 11:22
Thank you. Those last two are his fifth and sixth in the last three years.
So far he has used .350 Rem Mag, .308, 5.56 and .22/250. He has already figured out shot placement is far more important than caliber...especially on whitetail or similar sized mammals.
Connor is very cool in the presence of game and has learned to squeeeeeze the trigger in compressed time. We practice a lot on steel with a scoped 10/22, including a shot timer while standing, sitting, walking and safe 180 pivots. I have stressed benches are for zeroing and practice must be from field positions.
His first deer in '06 was a 30 yard snapshot on a doe that stood up behind us in thick honeysuckle. I whispered "pivot and shoot the deer" and he did with the .350. Major bang-flop with the .35s.
Probably just the result of video games but hope training and heredity help some, too.
He's also stretched about 7 inches since the '07 pics!
achildofthesky
02-18-09, 19:47
No problem. While I wouldn't call the 223/5.56 an ideal round for deer, it is quite sufficient. To narrow the odds use quality ammo loaded with quality bullets at decent range and choose your shot. We can use any 22 centerfire here (even a 22 hornet) and while I don't, if it was all I had I would whip up a bunch of bambi loads and set to business. I'd love to get a lightweight 223 bold gun for varmints someday and should the opportunity present itself, I wouldn't hesitate.
I recently killed a nice 8-point with my 16inch carbine. Can't rember what load I was using but it droped him with 1 shot to the lungs. Fired a second just so he didn't suffer. I couldn't find a piece of his left lung bigger than a quarter
just joined the site, didnt read all the posts,
but yes the 223 can kill deer, it comes down to bullet selection. i am a huge barnes bullets advocate in typical small for game calibers, but it does all come down to shot placement
i shoot 62g barnes in my 223ai for deer, is this my go to hunting rifle and load, no, does it work yet, but i do limit the distance to 200yd shots
here is a recoved bullet, the only barnes bullet i have ever found
it went through 2 sholders then down the leg bone where i found it
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/cbbates3/guns/rectsx.jpg
Our lease is under management and we normally have to take between 50-75 does every year depending on the conditions / fawn crop & survey. I have shot them from everything from a .222 to a 7mm Lazzeroni or 7.21 Firebird if you prefer.
It ends up being more work than fun when the rest on the leasies do not pull their share. All my .22 kills are neck shots & my favorite for the job is the .22 swift, although it is fun using the black gun when the 'spurts' are out and say you can't hit a thing with those guns over 100 yards.
The country I hunt is so thick you just cannot take the boiler room shot as you will not have enough blood trail and need to drop them. Head shots are risky and a good way to knock a nose or lower jaw off. Keep it where the white patch meets the brown when they are motionless looking straight at you for clean kills.
I have a friend who has used a Mini-14 with great success (hasn't lost an animal yet) on a variety of game (mostly hogs, and deer). He uses 55gr TBBC and 53/62 gr TSX on most of his hunts although he has used the 64gr Win PP on at least one occasion. Broadside heart lung shots are the norm, and range is limited to 100-150yds or so. Knowing your and your rifle/load limitations is very important with any cartridge, but is especially important when hunting with one that is a marginal performer.
tdc rangemaster
11-08-10, 23:19
I have killed deer with many calibers, .270, 7 mag. 30-06, .300 win mag and .300 Weatherby mag. Tonight I killed a 6 point buck with my AR-15 M-4 with red dot scope. I used federal 60 gr. nosler partitions. I shot him twice due to him running a short distance and stopping allowing a follow up shot.Range was about 100 yards. Both rounds hit behind the shoulder and exited through the back ribs. he didnt go far. Bullet performance was good. I dont consider .223 Ideal for deer, but with good bullets and good shot placement it will work.
Magz, your original post said you had no interest in making an animal suffer and you wanted a good clean kill. While anyone can wound a deer if they take a low percentage shot, I'll assume that you will only take a responsible shot on a deer for the purpose of this discussion. I grew up hunting deer and was taught that we should respect the animal. Part of that respect means bringing enough gun to do the job quickly and effeciently under a variety of conditions. IMHO, .223 isn't enough gun unless you are in the most ideal conditions. Unfortunately, deer hunting rarely presents ideal conditions. The deer could be running, turned funny or walk behind some light brush. Under any of these circumstances, .223 is less than ideal. I also don't take neck / head shots on deer because the liklihood that you might miss the smaller vital target is much greater than putting one in the boiler room. I generally consider .243 the minimum requirement and when I've used it in the past, I have been very careful about shot placement. My go to rifle is an M700 in .30-06. Can you hunt deer with .223, sure. Is it the best choice, not by a longshot. Killing a deer with an AR would be fun, but we can't let fun replace responsible.
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Magz, your original post said you had no interest in making an animal suffer and you wanted a good clean kill. While anyone can wound a deer if they take a low percentage shot, I'll assume that you will only take a responsible shot on a deer for the purpose of this discussion. I grew up hunting deer and was taught that we should respect the animal. Part of that respect means bringing enough gun to do the job quickly and effeciently under a variety of conditions. IMHO, .223 isn't enough gun unless you are in the most ideal conditions. Unfortunately, deer hunting rarely presents ideal conditions. The deer could be running, turned funny or walk behind some light brush. Under any of these circumstances, .223 is less than ideal. I also don't take neck / head shots on deer because the liklihood that you might miss the smaller vital target is much greater than putting one in the boiler room. I generally consider .243 the minimum requirement and when I've used it in the past, I have been very careful about shot placement. My go to rifle is an M700 in .30-06. Can you hunt deer with .223, sure. Is it the best choice, not by a longshot. Killing a deer with an AR would be fun, but we can't let fun replace responsible.
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How many deer have you taken with a .223?
Unfortunately, deer hunting rarely presents ideal conditions. The deer could be running, . . . or walk behind some light brush. Under any of these circumstances, .223 is less than ideal.
Taking those shots with a .243 or .308 is not so responsible either maybe. Sure wouldn't be for the archer.
On this topic, one often finds a point of view espoused that
A. the .223 is not the choice of a responsible sportsman
who B. might take a shot at a running deer obscured by brush :sarcastic: WTF?
Suwannee Tim
11-12-10, 18:46
Karamojo Bell killed 1500 elephants with 7X57, 6.5X54 and .303. Eskimos kill polar bears with the 22 Hornet. I remember some jackass who killed a goat with a 22 caliber air rifle. Not a good idea for most folks. Not a good idea under most conditions. Use enough gun. Always a good idea.
Suwannee Tim
11-12-10, 18:52
On this topic, one often finds a point of view espoused that
A. the .223 is not the choice of a responsible sportsman
who B. might take a shot at a running deer obscured by brush WTF?
You might not see the fine brush. You may shoot, the deer runs and you shoot again. I hunted a wounded doe for two days, no I didn't wound her. Fired eight shots in two days, most too far and many she was running. I only hit her with the eighth shot.
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