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high888
12-18-08, 14:16
Please excuse me, as I am no expert but only started this firearm sport/hobby in early November, at the urging of my wife, of all people. I am 56 years old, and my
hobby has been golf since I was 12. Lately, it has become so expensive ($3,000 for a new set of clubs) and green fees, that I let the sport fade away. The last and only time I had fired a rifle was in 1967. Fast forward to today. I am a quick learner when I find something I like. Over the past 8 weeks I have purchased 3 AR's, 2 .40
semiautomatics, and 2 snub nose revolvers. I am going to my CCW class this weekend. I am not a hunter, and am actually a member of the humane society.
But, I have found a sport which is extremely fun, and I look forward to weekends to
practice target shooting. These firearms are for my enjoyment only. I have now joined the NRA as well. Here is my question: Up until recently, I thought gun owners had some sort of Rambo complex. But now, I look at firearms as nothing more than a form of entertainment, sport, what have you. How do you convince
people otherwise who look at guns/firearms as some sort of threat to the universe? To be honest, just being around a handgun gave me the jeebies. But now I regularly take them apart, clean them, and they are no more intimidating then my set of golf clubs. Anything not used properly can be a threat. 50,000 people a year die because of improper use of an automobile. Should those be banned as well? I now see how confusing this issue can be. What can be done to convince the uninformed that these things don't have a mind of their own as
if they were mechanical creatures from the Terminator movies?

Jerm
12-18-08, 14:26
Exposer...

To level headed gun owners.

Then to the firearms themselves.

BWYoda
12-18-08, 16:36
Welcome to the club sir! Firearms are an emotive subject with 95% of the population. I can't begin to list how many arguments I've had members of the liberal elite who spout from a position of complete ignorance. IMHO, I don't think the argument for or against firearms is about firearms at all - it's a question of ideology and ethics.
There are people in society who take responsibility for their actions and for the welfare of themselves and their families. There is another segment of the population which does not. The latter would have you believe that guns are unnecessary because we have a Police Force, door locks and burglar alarms. They live in denial, whereas we choose to confront the world the way it really is. There's an excellent article that was written a few years ago and I've taken the liberty of pasting it below. It sums up the whole mindset far better than I could:-



On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman
By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing."

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...

"Baa."

mike240
12-18-08, 16:39
Welcome! Better late than never. Learn what you can take classes pass it on to grandkids!

Buckaroo
12-18-08, 18:19
Welcome!

If you are willing to tell us approximately where you live there might be a member near enough to you to allow you to shoot together (if you are looking for a shooting partner).

I recently relocated and was able to join a Conservation Club (aka Gun Club) for the first time. I get to visit the range at my pleasure, shoot matches and learn from the other club members.

I never have golfed (just being around golf clubs gives me the jeebies) but I know a lot of people who spend gobs of money on it.

Buckaroo

thedog
12-19-08, 01:25
Welcome, friend. More people like your wife, and ultimately, you, would sure help!

Be good, be righteous, live a good life and be a good example of a gun owner. Talk to people intelligently. Good luck, and again, welcome.

dog

thopkins22
12-19-08, 02:05
Lead those people who fear liberty to sites like this http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm

This particular government statistic shows the conviction rates of those licensed to carry a concealed handgun in Texas, versus those who are not. Gun owners(and especially those dedicated enough to carry legally, are amongst the safest people to associate with.


Sidenote:
While reading the stats I noticed 23 licensed individuals convicted for unlicensed carry of a weapon. That seems oxymoronic to me, perhaps brass knuckles/switchblades are the weapons in question. I wish we had CWL as opposed to CHL.

thedog
12-19-08, 03:25
"Statistics" can be mis-leading. Maybe it's first time offenders. Good 'ol boys who screwed up? Maybe it's Idiots inputting false data?
I'd like to know. Because I DO KNOW, when a resposible individual is able to carry, (OR own a gun) that they become one of the most trusted people around, instantly. Who else walks around with that "burden" upon them? Certainly not the criminals or everyday "joes".
Good people do not screw around with firearms. They only become better people, with the obligation to be so.

dog

QuickStrike
12-19-08, 05:22
I wish someone came up with the actual number of gun deaths by suicide, scum vs. scum and cops vs. scum.

I'm willing to bet that most gun deaths fall under those three categories...

30 cal slut
12-19-08, 06:39
take an anti to the range.

go over the 4 rules. stress safety. be an examplar of responsibility.

start easy ... with a .22 LR and work your way up.

save a demonstration of the military pattern semi-automatic rifle for last.

show that firearms can be fun and safe when handled safely.

accept that you're not going to immediately change everybody's minds, or make a dent at all in some folks who react emotionally to firearms.

i can't tell you how many times i've taken first-time shooters to the range, who might have tilted anti-gun, and then remarked to me afterwards ... "That was fun. I have to get one of these AR-15's."

CobraBG
12-19-08, 09:28
Welcome! I wish my wife would tell me to buy 3 AR's... and some new handguns.

warpigM-4
12-19-08, 11:10
welcome to M4C:D some people will always think guns are the root of all mans evil.movies do play a big part of what the sheeple think in the 80's with all the gang and drug tv and movies .anyone with a weapon was a loon.when katrina hit some saw what was needed to save themselves from crooks that would kill you with a bat just as quick.Some think I am nuts because I always carry and have 3 mags on me.I just refresh there memories of the store owners fighting the crowds in the LA riots.Then I tell them the Military gave me a new way of thinking:D Better have it and not need it ,then need it and not have it:cool:

Guilty
12-19-08, 13:31
Congratulations on ditching that horrible golf addiction for a truly fun sport. Even if you are not a hunter, firearms are tremendously fun IMHO and a gun has the potential to save your life or the life of a family member some day - hopefully that will never be the case but I hope that your family members can learn gun safety along with you.
It is good to hear that you are taking classes and getting to know your firearms, one can never get enough training. Hopefully you can pass along the passion to your children and grand children.

BlueForce
12-19-08, 23:09
Golf has no practical application.

high888
12-20-08, 06:37
Golf has no practical application.

Yep. After 4+ hours of beating that ball around, I was usually disappointed and about $120.00 poorer. $120.00 buys mucho .223 or whatever, and as time goes
on I am making progress at further distances. Not that I would ever shoot from 500 yards. Now, maybe, 200 would work. :D

MOFoxtrot
12-20-08, 15:55
When I went golfing I got free drinks. Didn't care for the sport but beer is good.:D:D


But it is not wise to drink and handle firearms.


Welcome to the board

Scott

OvenMitts
12-22-08, 10:03
Welcome back :) I too just returned to the good side, having not shot a weapon since the Marine Corps a few years back. Seems you have jumped in and hit the ground running! Congrats and have fun!


There's an excellent article that was written a few years ago and I've taken the liberty of pasting it below. It sums up the whole mindset far better than I could:-



On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman
By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing."



Super, super article. Thank you for posting this; I am passing it around to everyone I know.