View Full Version : E15 Gasoline thoughts
(since our deepest topic on guns is a damned grip screw)
Years back, (I can't remember if it was here or ARFtard) there was a member who worked for Chevron (I believe) and gave a lot of insight on gasoline quality and the E15 garbage blends, etc.
I've read/heard that the alcohol "they" add to gas is bad for your vehicle and hurts your mileage/performance. True??
SomeOtherGuy
04-22-22, 10:57
Yes.
E15 hurts mileage because ethanol contains less energy potential than gasoline does. The more ethanol is in the mix, the less potential energy by volume. But we still pay for "gas" by volume (gallons).
Ethanol also is more corrosive than gasoline, so fuel systems are at more risk of corrosion damage. Car makers adjusted fuel system components decades ago (c. 2000?) to compensate for this, but whatever the fuel system is made from, you're putting a more corrosive liquid into it.
Ethanol production uses up corn that could have been better used for almost anything else. It's climate-negative, generating more GHG than it saves. It drives up food prices, mostly indirectly by raising the cost of animal feed.
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ethanol.shtml
"Due to ethanol's lower energy content, FFVs operating on E85 get roughly 15% to 27% fewer miles per gallon than when operating on regular gasoline, depending on the ethanol content. Regular gasoline typically contains about 10% ethanol.5"
Excellent. So here's my idea. If you fuel up and park your vehicle. Could you open the gas cap and allow the Ethanol to evaporate off?
Granted you'd effectively be increasing your fuel cost, but it would be better mileage and better for your car if it worked.
Averageman
04-22-22, 11:54
This is a bad idea for a lot of reasons.
Does nothing to help the auto perform and can reduce performance. If is much less efficient to use when you do all of the numbers from start to finish. Rewards Farmers who perhaps should be growing a more economical crop.
And any society that burns its food is lost..
Oh there's no question that the Ethanol fuel is exponential levels of fukktardation that does more harm than good. I'm trying to see if it's a good idea to vape off that shit from my gas tank when the vehicle isn't in use... or if that would even work.
I wish fuel level indicators were more precise. I'd open the cap over night and see if there were a measurable difference.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-22-22, 12:50
If the predictions of food (grain) shortages come true this year, the use of corn for fuel might be arguable a crime against humanity.
Interesting how the dems will thow environmentalism under the diesel buss with the ethanol, and the release of oil from the strategic reserve when we might actually need it in the near future if this war spreads... and the MSM says nothing.
I basically never buy fuel that includes Ethanol. I've been using a phone app for several years called Pure Gas. It searches for nearby stations that sell fuel that is "pure", without added Ethanol. It even shows the octane the pure gas has, in case the user's vehicle requires premium. It indicates how far away the station is, and in what direction. Once I decide to use a particular station, I just click the entry in the app, and Google Maps opens to take me there.
I doubt any normal fuel stations here in metro phx sell anything other than Ethanol polluted gas. I'm thinking that the obsession with our gas caps here with our emissions testing means that they want to trap the Ethanol and not let is vape out.
So popping the cap overnight might reduce the ethanol levels in my tank??
You know? I could experiment this with a little red gas can!!!:cool:
If it works on a small scale, I'm going balls deep on my idea!!
If the ethanol evaporates off, then that'd be great. A simple test with a red gas can sounds valid to me.
The app's map shows that Phoenix has pure gas at Speedway Race Fuels (probably not a typical station), King Balancing, Streetfighter Motorsports (probably not a typical station), Phoenix Race Fuels (probably not a typical station), and Red Mountain Chevron.
All of those dealers sound EXPENSIVE except Red Mountain Chevron. I'll have to check that one out..
A gas can and a sharpie, and I'm on it. I'm may do this Sunday so I can monitor it over time to get an idea of how this might scale up for a vehicle. This will make my lawn mower run better too if it works.
Excellent. So here's my idea. If you fuel up and park your vehicle. Could you open the gas cap and allow the Ethanol to evaporate off?
Granted you'd effectively be increasing your fuel cost, but it would be better mileage and better for your car if it worked.
No on all. Here's why.
Miles decrease even more from volume loss.
Evaporation only occurs at the surface area and is regulated/ governed by the diameter of the smallest point of escape to transfer. With is the size of your opening. Which is very small. Look in your filler neck.
Also you have to keep in mind that gasoline Evaporates also.
Your better off just using it in a big 5 gallon jug to speed up a weak fire. :jester:
Also you have to keep in mind that gasoline Evaporates also.
Why you killing my dreams, man? :(
My hope was that the Ethanol would vape off at a much faster rate.
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ethanol.shtml
"Due to ethanol's lower energy content, FFVs operating on E85 get roughly 15% to 27% fewer miles per gallon than when operating on regular gasoline, depending on the ethanol content. Regular gasoline typically contains about 10% ethanol.5"
Some FFVs make their best HP on E85 though - I know thats true of the newer 5.3 GM V8s. The engines can run a more aggressive fuel/timing program. If E85 is 30% cheaper, its economically viable to buy it.
Andy
SomeOtherGuy
04-22-22, 15:30
Some FFVs make their best HP on E85 though - I know thats true of the newer 5.3 GM V8s. The engines can run a more aggressive fuel/timing program. If E85 is 30% cheaper, its economically viable to buy it.
Once upon a time 8-12 years ago, E85 was often 20-25% cheaper than gas. Not enough to make economic sense, but not too far off. Recently the few stations I've seen with E85 are charging only 3-5% less for it than regular gas (87). And that's in Wisconsin, a farm state.
My concern isn't with horsepower, but rather fuel efficiency gain and reducing the ethanol damage to components in my truck.
My concern isn't with horsepower, but rather fuel efficiency gain and reducing the ethanol damage to components in my truck.
Guys, gasoline is volatile, so it will evaporate along with the alcohol if left in an open container. This is why having a tight seal on your gas tank is crucial every time you fill up. Lose caps compromise mpg because the fuel vapors in the tank will slowly bleed off when the cap is lose.
A better way to separate ethanol is by washing the fuel. My buddy talked about this, basically adding water to gas, sealing the can, and shaking it. Then pour off into a sealed container with a low point drain, much like a fuel oil water separator on a diesel. The water mixes with the ethanol and sinks to the bottom. Drain the water/alcohol mix and the remainder is gasoline. I thought he was a bit kooky, but the very first hit on Duck Duck Go seems to support this: https://www.wikihow.com/Remove-Ethanol-from-Gas
You won’t get the ethanol to separate from the petrol. Gasses, as in the particle form not the commodity- don’t just separate, thank god as then all the nitrogen oxygen, co2, etc would separate and we wouldn’t be able to breath!
You can look up Ficks laws of gasses.
You’d have to distill the ethanol off of the petrol (don’t try it!) to accomplish this.
Just find a gas station where you can buy ethanol free fuel. Mostly by lakes for boats and for specialized race fuels for race cars.
El Vaquero
04-22-22, 17:54
If you have a Buccees nearby they usually sell ethanol free gas. I buy it for my lawn mower and weed eater.
Business_Casual
04-22-22, 18:00
If you’re running a lot of dome pressure it can be handy…
Some boosted engines can make more power on E85 since it uses more fuel in the charge which has a cooling effect. Not too different from methanol/water injection systems for high compression engines.
I wouldn't use E85 if my vehicle wasn't designed for it though. Its not necessarily bad, just different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnPJEI6AnZ0&ab_channel=ProjectFarm
1_click_off
04-22-22, 22:16
I have a 2017 Tundra FFV. I have done the calculations on the MPG and cost per mile. My cost per mile is roughly within a few cents of each other on low, mid, high and E85. Best mileage on high octane and worst on E85 but the math said it is costing me roughly the same amount of cash to go from A to B no matter what I spend to fill my tank up.
The only thing I can think might be a benefit of E85 is it might clean the fuel system out. Great for injectors, bad for everything leading up to the injectors because all the junk that gets broken free.
Don't Sta-Bil and Lucas make gas treatments that are supposed to counteract the negative aspects of ethanol fuel? I used to keep a bottle of Sta-Bil in the truck to use when I couldn't find pure 87 octane.
I know several guys that run nothing but E85 and E54( not sure on the second one). But they are running highly modified turbocharged cars making over 500 horsepower. They don't have issues with it.
Oh there's no question that the Ethanol fuel is exponential levels of fukktardation that does more harm than good. I'm trying to see if it's a good idea to vape off that shit from my gas tank when the vehicle isn't in use... or if that would even work.
I wish fuel level indicators were more precise. I'd open the cap over night and see if there were a measurable difference.
No, your gasoline will also evaporate.
The biggest problem with any E mixed fuel is that ethanol is hygroscopic. It will absorb water from the atmosphere over time, so it's absolutely terrible for any gasoline engine that is used infrequently. I am lucky in that Alaska doesn't have ethanol in any of it's fuel.
dwhitehorne
04-23-22, 20:30
The biggest problem with any E mixed fuel is that ethanol is hygroscopic. It will absorb water from the atmosphere over time, so it's absolutely terrible for any gasoline engine that is used infrequently.
This what I don't understand about the hygroscopic thing. Are they talking about bad for a lawn mower that sits all winter or a car that gets driven every day? I have a 2018 Grand Cherokee that I run Regular 88 from Sheetz exclusively. That is their E15 gas and I've been doing it for 4 years. Currently it is $3.59 and unleaded 87 octane is $3.99. Gas in northern VA is all 10 percent ethanol which from what I read could be 9 percent or 12 percent so I figure what's another 3 percent to make up 15 percent. When I drive down from my house in VA to my house in NC I get about 22mpg on 95 with E15 gas. Coming back from NC to VA on I95 I get about 23 to 24mpg on a fill up in NC from Sams club which I assume is 10 percent ethanol. so for .40 cents a gallon I don't see a huge difference in the mileage. David
SomeOtherGuy
04-24-22, 09:05
This what I don't understand about the hygroscopic thing. Are they talking about bad for a lawn mower that sits all winter or a car that gets driven every day?
The hygroscopic issue is mostly a problem for equipment that sits unused, or cars where the owner runs on empty most of the time (resulting in more air in the tank and more condensation, so more water in the gas). If you go through gas constantly it's not much of an issue. Likewise, your 2018 Jeep would have a fuel system that can handle the corrosiveness.
So hey, like many DC solutions, if someone is a wealthy urbanite professional who doesn't do any of the icky blue-collar things and has the money for the newest stuff, E15 shouldn't be a problem! As an added bonus, the food shortages it will contribute to give them an opportunity for more virtue signaling and "OrangeManBad" tweets. (This is not pointed at dwhitehorne or anyone else posting, just an observation of how the self-important D base will be mostly unaffected.)
I looked up one of the stations mentioned. (red mountain Cheveron) and they sell it in 5 gal increments not at the pump. probably very expensive for boats and stuff.
so for .40 cents a gallon I don't see a huge difference in the mileage. David
Same here. I used to make a point of getting gas without ethanol but decided to test things when I bought my Jeep Patriot. After several tanks used in similar driving conditions, the mileage is pretty much the same for me, and pretty decent cost savings.
This what I don't understand about the hygroscopic thing. Are they talking about bad for a lawn mower that sits all winter or a car that gets driven every day?
The 5 gallon can I am using for / in my mower currently is at LEAST 3 years old. Cheapest e10 junk the station had at the time I am sure.
And it does just fine...
Even after the mower sat all winter with a half tank still in it...
Zero issues and have never had to pull that thing more than 2 or 3 times to crank it before use.
I personally could care less that corn had to die to help make that fuel. Might be good feed for chickens or pigs but I will be damned if I eat any (or my dogs).
('cept for corn chips... Panchos cheese dip would not work right anything other than corn chips and I refuse to go through life without my Panchos cheese dip)
P2Vaircrewman
04-24-22, 11:15
Miles per gallon is a bad way to determine economy. Use miles per dollar, that will show what fuel is best to use. Premium may increase MPG but at what cost. E 85 will reduce mileage but again at what cost.
Miles per dollar will tell you.
The 5 gallon can I am using for / in my mower currently is at LEAST 3 years old. Cheapest e10 junk the station had at the time I am sure.
And it does just fine...
Even after the mower sat all winter with a half tank still in it...
Zero
I find that when the stuff sits in the carb bowl for a long time it tends to gum up. I got a free powerwasher from the GFs friend which wouldn't start. The carb was so gummed up I just bought a replacement for $13 on Amazon and it started right away. Who knows how many seasons it sat idle.
My lawn mower and 4-cycle trimmer is using last year's gas.
I live in Iowa where all this bs started. We have had it since the 70's. this is how it works. Take whatever % of alcohol is in the gas and cut that in half. That is how much you are going to roughly lose in MPG. I have done this test on over 10 vehicles since E85 came out. It has always been the same.
And the water problem is real with it. This alcohol attracts water. And that is also how you get it out of the gas. Mix water into the gas can then let sit. I have a can set up just for this to use the gas in my boat motor. It makes my 3 cyl motor feel and act like it is missing a cyl when runnng on the e10 ethanol. On the bottom of the gas can I have a drain hose. Once the water is mixed with the gas I let it sit for a day. The water stays mixed with the alcohol and sinks to the bottom. I then just open the drain and drain off the water and alcohol mix.
Do you use mag sulfate to pull the rest of the water from the gas?
How much remains mixed amd what is the result?
Is the benefit worth it? What improvement is seen?
Some FFVs make their best HP on E85 though - I know thats true of the newer 5.3 GM V8s. The engines can run a more aggressive fuel/timing program. If E85 is 30% cheaper, its economically viable to buy it.
The reason you can make more power on corn fuel is more to do with vaporization heat transfer cramming more net capable power into there at closer to stoichiometric optimum (instead of needing to run a bit rich), but yeah.
I'm still honestly just mad that we're not awash with excellent plug-in hybrids that combine decent EV range and capability with very turbocharged small engines that produce combined power in the 300bhp range from cheap vehicles that get insane mileage, but can also go fast, do cool torque fill things to be drivable, and just not suck for use as actual personal vehicles.
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