View Full Version : German Flakpanzers for Ukraine
Germany is supposedly sending fifty Gepard Flakpanzers to Ukraine. However, they seem to have run into a legal issue with the 35mm ammo:
"ZURICH, April 26 (Reuters) - Neutral Switzerland has vetoed the re-export of Swiss-made ammunition used in Gepard anti-aircraft tanks that Germany is sending to Ukraine, the government said on Tuesday.
Germany earlier announced its first delivery of heavy weapons to Ukraine to help it fend off Russian attacks following weeks of pressure at home and abroad to do so.
The Swiss State Secretariat for Economic Affairs (SECO) confirmed a report by broadcaster SRF that it had blocked Germany from sending munitions for the Gepard tank to Ukraine."
Wonder if all their 35mm Gepard ammo was sourced from Switzerland?
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/swiss-veto-german-request-re-export-tank-ammunition-ukraine-2022-04-26/
Speaking of Flakpanzers - that's a formidable weapon at least according to a few youtube videos.
This guys is claiming that one of those costs at least 3x the standard Leopard tank. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pP9rJ7dV_s
On a general note:
That reminds me something...
Germany, Poland, UK, Russia, Ukraine, France, other Central European countries - too many to name, and the U.S./Canada; a complex conflict based on a national identity, disputed borders, and breakaway republics; backstage deals and secret agreements and alliances; weapon and technology transfer to countries... That's pretty much how WWI and WWII went, isn't it?
Seriously, da faq Germany and Poland are doing? It's like they are trying to get bombed again. I understand that they want a political, military, and an economic collapse of Russia sooner rather than later. Do they realize if that happens, and that's a big IF, that will be AFTER German and Polish (and few other nations) cities and countrysides turn into Nuclear dust? (at least in a currently developing situation) Maybe under a different circumstances outcome would have been different.
German/Polish/British attitude can be summed up as - I don't care if my house burns down, as long as the whole neighborhood burns down as well.
https://media.giphy.com/media/NTur7XlVDUdqM/giphy.gif
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-27-22, 01:22
I don't know about Britian or Germany, but going by how the Ukranians have done, I think the Poles are exactly in the 'burn the MFer down', we ain't going back.
I still don't get the Putin Fluffing. Don't deceive yourself that it is 'Russia'. This has nothing to do with Russian people and everything to do with the oligarich kleptokratic failed oil-state that is the fiefdom of Putin and his 'friends', that he doesn't kill off.
Da Fuq are Germany and Poland doing? Being smart and bleeding out their enemy on someone else land. Duh. Putin is coming, I don't understand the people that don't understand that. Even Neville Chamberlain eventually got it. You say that this is just WWI and II again, land fought over empires and countries? You don't say, as if that is unique in history. We also saw a 'land for peace in our time', that seems to be a common theme; at least some people are getting it.
Going nuclear is Putin's bell to ring. Frankly, Putin is always going to threaten nuclear attacks. Let me invade the countries I want to invade and take over or get nuked is not a rational or long-term viable strategy. And frankly, what do you nuke? Seriously name the target that gets you... what? Blow a hole in the lines? As if this is Verdun, and by the look of things, Putin's troops couldn't exploit it. Nuke Kyiv or Lviv? And that gets you... what? Nuke some NATO bases... like how many? Nuke Warsaw or Berlin.... You already lost the rest of the world at Lviv. You threaten Berlin and the Chinese will tap you out themselves.
Have they tried using it to hit cruise missiles?
Da Fuq are Germany and Poland doing? Being smart and bleeding out their enemy on someone else land. Duh. Putin is coming, I don't understand the people that don't understand that.
I'm not a military or a political expert, but I think you're wrong on this. Germany has pretty bad track record when to comes to World wars. Two out of two they were on the wrong side. Polish motivations are also questionable. They have some unhealthy obsession about Russia, but I understand that given their 400 years warring history with Russia.
As of history, it's easy to say now what was a right or wrong thing to do looking at it back. But what I do know is that every police officer recommends not to escalate the situation when you're faced with attacker.
Why people happily support any war and beat battle drums is beyond me. Solution is very simple: if anyone (country-wise, or individually) supports it - send your money, send your children, and go yourself to a war yourself. Ukraine (or whoever) has obviously decided to take that gamble of an active conflict with Russia. I understand that - they had a large army and still do. But I think there was a peaceful solution. Maybe not exactly to the Ukrainian liking, but IMHO that's better than having a whole country bombed, families and economy destroyed.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-27-22, 10:21
Started like writing a longer post, but in reality, your post pretty much speaks for itself. It is a distillation of the head-trash and bull-shit that for some reason people subscribe to. Thanks for showing that you have nothing intelligent to offer to the conversation, welcome to the ignore list.
Have they tried using it to hit cruise missiles?
Don't know but should work fine, this thing is typical over engineered German, it even has a muzzle velocity detector to read the speed of the rounds leaving the barrel and adjust the lead. Also since the eighties, Stinger teams have been accompanying the Gepard units to take advantage of their long-range scanning capacity so useful for giving your MANPAD teams a heads up. One suggestion is best use of these would be around Odessa for cruise missile and beach defense.
Also about Swiss neutrality and the ammo, since this is a defensive weapon they might be more flexible, but 60,000 rounds are supposed to be provided. Also maybe we need to remind the Swiss about how the US Army Air Force got confused and "accidentally" bombed Switzerland a couple of times during WWII because they were trading with Germany.
Business_Casual
04-27-22, 10:31
Started like writing a longer post, but in reality, your post pretty much speaks for itself. It is a distillation of the head-trash and bull-shit that for some reason people subscribe to. Thanks for showing that you have nothing intelligent to offer to the conversation, welcome to the ignore list.
Why are different opinions so triggering? People have the right to believe and say things in America, regardless.
We tried to build our own version of the Gepard - the M247 Sgt York. It was a dumpster fire from beginning to end.
We tried to build our own version of the Gepard - the M247 Sgt York. It was a dumpster fire from beginning to end.
Should have bought the Gepard but you know NIH. And the Sgt York had a lot of potential, i was particularly impressed when during testing it acquired the exhaust fan in a porta potty and wanted to engage.
Current Gepard users:
Brazil 36 surplus from Bundeswehr.
Jordan 60 have been received from retired Dutch surplus for 21 million dollars.
Romania 43 delivered (36 + 7 for spares), all ex-Bundeswehr stocks.
Well guess this solves the ammo problem as long as Ukraine doesn't put it all in one place with a big sign that says "Insert Cruise Missile Here".
Alex Luck
@AlexLuck9
More detail re GEPARD SPAAG transfer from GER to Ukraine: Apparently Brazil will provide 300,000 rounds of ammo to Kyiv. Was previously issue as GER only had 23,000 rounds available (& supplier Switzerland refused to agree on transfer).
Started like writing a longer post, but in reality, your post pretty much speaks for itself. It is a distillation of the head-trash and bull-shit that for some reason people subscribe to. Thanks for showing that you have nothing intelligent to offer to the conversation, welcome to the ignore list.
I sincerely apologize if I made you feel this way and an off-topic post. Dailymail just announced that:
Selena Gomez is launching a mental health forum with the help of the Biden-Harris administration to promote 'self-acceptance and mental well-being'
Maybe we should both join and discuss our differences there in a more holistic approach. If that does not work we'll come back here and battle it out like two rabid apes. Since my wheelchair was stolen by some crack addict, I now have to use two crutches which might be advantageous in this case.
Linky: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-10759637/Selena-Gomez-launching-mental-health-forum-help-Biden-Harris-administration.html
But I think there was a peaceful solution. Maybe not exactly to the Ukrainian liking, but IMHO that's better than having a whole country bombed, families and economy destroyed.
Yeah, we all know it's better to live on your knees than die on your feet. Much better to be absorbed and ruled by a tyrant and oligarchs than risk lives, property, and sacred honor, isn't it?
Sadly, I've been seeing this opinion more and more from elements of the Right lately. Michele Bachmann said something very similar on Christian radio I regularly listen to, and that was as infuriating. Modern-day appeasement. I wonder if it stems from a subconscious recognition that Putin/Russia is the bad actor here, but need to shift blame for the problems resistance has caused off of the obvious bad guy. Gaslighting, in damn near its most basic form. Either that, or we're envious the Ukrainians had the nerve to resist oppression, and we lack that will.
Yeah, we all know it's better to live on your knees than die on your feet. Much better to be absorbed and ruled by a tyrant and oligarchs than risk lives, property, and sacred honor, isn't it?
Same could be said about Russia coming to the aid of those people living in Donetsk and Luhansk. After getting shelled regularly by the Ukrainians for the last 8 years after they (the majority of the people there) declared independence from Ukraine...
Same could be said about Russia coming to the aid of those people living in Donetsk and Luhansk. After getting shelled regularly by the Ukrainians for the last 8 years after they (the majority of the people there) declared independence from Ukraine...
And the peaceful peoples of Donetsk and Luhansk never acted aggressively towards the war mongering Ukrainians. And I am sure the Russians made sure any election was free and fair. You might need to read a little history about this conflict. And let us not forget the peaceful insurgents or wait that might have been the peaceful Russians shooting down that civilian airliner.
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17)[a] was a scheduled passenger flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur that was shot down on 17 July 2014 while flying over eastern Ukraine. All 283 passengers and 15 crew were killed. Shot down by a Buk 9M83 surface-to-air missile transported from Russia on the day of the crash Near Hrabove, Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine
Yeah, we all know it's better to live on your knees than die on your feet. Much better to be absorbed and ruled by a tyrant and oligarchs than risk lives, property, and sacred honor, isn't it?
I get where you're coming from: Rooting for a tough, determined, and likeable underdog in uneven fight is basically a narrative of many Hollywood movies and strongly ingrained in American culture. And western press tries to portray Ukraine as such.
Border disputes and country conflicts are nothing new. A professional from the state department can provide examples of successful negotiations and structured political agreements. Whenever political leaders are willing to negotiate is another question.
I see Zelenski, whose native language is Russian (not Ukrainian); who grew up in the Soviet Union and knows the culture, people, and history goes on stage weekly and call Russians and I quote here: "'the most barbaric and inhuman' in the world"; it reminds me of nothing less than speeches of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Goebbels trying to dehumanize Jews and Eastern European nationalities as an excuse for mass extermination.
What rhetoric U.S. and European press omits from Zelenki's Ukrainian speeches to his citizens is probably worse.
Coming from a President, that outlines a country's official policy. I consider this both unprofessional and counter productive. I suspect that regardless who's in power in Russia they will still have a problem with this rhetoric coming from Ukraine, period.
Which brings me to my point:
I see that you have a lot of valiant and righteous feelings about it, which in my opinion is very honorable and commendable. Would you, personally, as a soldier or a political figure of a stronger and larger country have an incentive to negotiate with or surrender to another country/military which calls you and your countryman "'the most barbaric and inhuman' in the world"
You know the answer. Why should Russians yield to the Ukrainian demands then?
Link to Zelenski's quote: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10734315/Ukraine-war-Russian-troops-barbaric-inhuman-world-Zelensky-says.html
Diamondback
04-29-22, 01:43
Given the history of how the Red Army set out to one-up the Nazis raping and pillaging their way across Europe, the Holodomor, their other history of liquidating entire ethnicities... well, I think VZ knows exactly what he's talking about. There can be no peace with Moscow until one of the Kremlin spires is shoved up Vlad's gay pedo ass Tepes Style, and even then there's a strong chance the replacement will be even worse.
I mean, when you have a country that institutionalizes not just indiscriminate slaughter of civilians but deliberate targeted murder of children as they did seeding Afghanistan with boobytrapped toys... that kinda says it all about the KGB and the people that made it up. And the leopard's spot's don't change just because the name of the check-signer does...
I get where you're coming from: Rooting for a tough, determined, and likeable underdog in uneven fight is basically a narrative of many Hollywood movies and strongly ingrained in American culture. And western press tries to portray Ukraine as such.
Border disputes and country conflicts are nothing new. A professional from the state department can provide examples of successful negotiations and structured political agreements. Whenever political leaders are willing to negotiate is another question.
I see Zelenski, whose native language is Russian (not Ukrainian); who grew up in the Soviet Union and knows the culture, people, and history goes on stage weekly and call Russians and I quote here: "'the most barbaric and inhuman' in the world"; it reminds me of nothing less than speeches of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Goebbels trying to dehumanize Jews and Eastern European nationalities as an excuse for mass extermination.
What rhetoric U.S. and European press omits from Zelenki's Ukrainian speeches to his citizens is probably worse.
Coming from a President, that outlines a country's official policy. I consider this both unprofessional and counter productive. I suspect that regardless who's in power in Russia they will still have a problem with this rhetoric coming from Ukraine, period.
Which brings me to my point:
I see that you have a lot of valiant and righteous feelings about it, which in my opinion is very honorable and commendable. Would you, personally, as a soldier or a political figure of a stronger and larger country have an incentive to negotiate with or surrender to another country/military which calls you and your countryman "'the most barbaric and inhuman' in the world"
You know the answer. Why should Russians yield to the Ukrainian demands then?
Link to Zelenski's quote: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10734315/Ukraine-war-Russian-troops-barbaric-inhuman-world-Zelensky-says.html
Do you support “duty to retreat” laws?
Same could be said about Russia coming to the aid of those people living in Donetsk and Luhansk. After getting shelled regularly by the Ukrainians for the last 8 years after they (the majority of the people there) declared independence from Ukraine...
Good lord, you really have a warped perception of reality, don't you? Let me get this straight, you think the Ukrainians randomly, probably because they are evil Nazis, shelled the peaceful people of Donetsk and Luhansk for 8 years, they finally declared independence, and then the Russians were forced to get involved for humanitarian reasons?
Wow. I don't know whether to feel sorry for you for how deluded you are or see this as yet another indication that you are a troll/propagandist who should be on the ignore list. Because it is a matter of public record that independence was declared in a very staged and orchestrated referendum less than 3 months after the flight of President Yanukovych, and well before the most serious fighting or shelling occurred.
The chain of events, incredibly simplified, are far closer to this than what you said: after a few protests with Biden's campaign rally-level of attendance, a few hundred folks (led by Russian nationals) stormed government buildings in several eastern oblasts of Ukraine, including ones that have proven to be very anti-Russian in recent months. Where they were successful, the pro-Russian rebels, acting on orders from Russia, staged a referendum with inflated numbers voting for independence in early May 2014. The Ukrainians attempted to retake these regions, but direct Russian intervention prevented a short end to the war. In the 8 years since, both sides have engaged in skirmishing, raids, and artillery fire. Almost like, you know, it was a war being suspended by what in reality amounts to a cease-fire. Now, 8 years later, Russia went from saying "it's a training exercise, we won't invade" to "we are forced to invade due to continued Ukrainian aggression" in less than the span of a week. And you, my propagandist friend, echoed that sentiment of Moscow every step along the way.
I see Zelenski, whose native language is Russian (not Ukrainian); who grew up in the Soviet Union and knows the culture, people, and history goes on stage weekly and call Russians and I quote here: "'the most barbaric and inhuman' in the world"; it reminds me of nothing less than speeches of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Goebbels trying to dehumanize Jews and Eastern European nationalities as an excuse for mass extermination.
What rhetoric U.S. and European press omits from Zelenki's Ukrainian speeches to his citizens is probably worse.
Coming from a President, that outlines a country's official policy. I consider this both unprofessional and counter productive. I suspect that regardless who's in power in Russia they will still have a problem with this rhetoric coming from Ukraine, period.
Which brings me to my point:
I see that you have a lot of valiant and righteous feelings about it, which in my opinion is very honorable and commendable. Would you, personally, as a soldier or a political figure of a stronger and larger country have an incentive to negotiate with or surrender to another country/military which calls you and your countryman "'the most barbaric and inhuman' in the world"
You know the answer. Why should Russians yield to the Ukrainian demands then?
The real question: is he wrong? Considering what we've seen Russians do to Ukraine, would not his words apply to the soldiers in question? Russian behavior has been barbaric and inhuman. We have seen mass murder, gang rapes, and widespread looting. Not isolated incidents, but common stories. This behavior also follows historical trends of the Russian/Red army.
If you are upset that Zelensky isn't being diplomatic enough and is calling the invading, murderous, raping Russians bad names, we really don't have any common ground for discussion. I couldn't care less what he calls them. Hell, I respect Zelensky more because he's willing to talk tough rather than play nice with the enemy. Good grief man, this is as dumb as complaining about Zelensky not wearing a suit and tie for his Zoom conferences with Western leaders.
His words make you think of Hitler? Holy gaslighting batman, you are almost as bad as our local chapter of the Moscow Mike Fan Club. What's next, we will need to think about the feelings of the invaders? Ask their preferred pronouns so as not to offend by misgendering them? You do realize that we called the Axis powers far, far worse during WWII, right?
But, if I found myself in the situation you indicated, a soldier in the invading army, looting, murdering, and raping across a previously peaceful country, I wouldn't take offense at someone calling it like it is. I'd be asking myself one question:
https://c.tenor.com/wMgwsOy6N40AAAAC/baddies-are-we-the-baddies.gif
Averageman
04-29-22, 09:50
I don't have a Dog in the fight, but it is however just common sense that if you invade a country, people are going to fight like hell.
Russia didn't need to do this, what do they need from Ukraine that couldn't be negotiated? The problem is negotiations require give and take and Putin wanted to go in with troops and tanks and not negotiate.
So here we are.
Neither player in this game is pure or faultless, but by the actions of Russia speak for themselves as the aggressor.
Gotta love those German special paint schemes:
https://i.imgur.com/6yltXPUl.jpg
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-29-22, 10:22
Gotta love those German special paint schemes:
https://i.imgur.com/6yltXPUl.jpg
Looks like it should be call the "COVID Camo"....
I remember when that system came out, seemed pretty wicked. DOesn't it sense the speed of the shell in the barrel and then sets each shells detonation time/distance to jack up aircraft? Interesting that Germany retired these and a bunch of countries picked them up. What did Germany field to replace it?
Averageman
04-29-22, 10:36
Looks like it should be call the "COVID Camo"....
I remember when that system came out, seemed pretty wicked. DOesn't it sense the speed of the shell in the barrel and then sets each shells detonation time/distance to jack up aircraft? Interesting that Germany retired these and a bunch of countries picked them up. What did Germany field to replace it?
I believe they went with an anti aircraft missel system on a smaller vehicle. A Marder Roland.
I'm not a military or a political expert, but I think you're wrong on this. Germany has pretty bad track record when to comes to World wars. Two out of two they were on the wrong side. Polish motivations are also questionable. They have some unhealthy obsession about Russia, but I understand that given their 400 years warring history with Russia.
As of history, it's easy to say now what was a right or wrong thing to do looking at it back. But what I do know is that every police officer recommends not to escalate the situation when you're faced with attacker.
Why people happily support any war and beat battle drums is beyond me. Solution is very simple: if anyone (country-wise, or individually) supports it - send your money, send your children, and go yourself to a war yourself. Ukraine (or whoever) has obviously decided to take that gamble of an active conflict with Russia. I understand that - they had a large army and still do. But I think there was a peaceful solution. Maybe not exactly to the Ukrainian liking, but IMHO that's better than having a whole country bombed, families and economy destroyed.
That's really all you had to type.
Why are different opinions so triggering? People have the right to believe and say things in America, regardless.
Yes, and we have the right to dismiss it out of hand.
Same could be said about Russia coming to the aid of those people living in Donetsk and Luhansk. After getting shelled regularly by the Ukrainians for the last 8 years after they (the majority of the people there) declared independence from Ukraine...
All they had to do was flee or assimilate. I mean that's what you're expecting the Ukrainians to do, right? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Oh, and it's not like those Russian expats in the region were exactly peaceful and on their own either. :rolleyes:
I get where you're coming from: Rooting for a tough, determined, and likeable underdog in uneven fight is basically a narrative of many Hollywood movies and strongly ingrained in American culture. And western press tries to portray Ukraine as such.
Border disputes and country conflicts are nothing new. A professional from the state department can provide examples of successful negotiations and structured political agreements. Whenever political leaders are willing to negotiate is another question.
I see Zelenski, whose native language is Russian (not Ukrainian); who grew up in the Soviet Union and knows the culture, people, and history goes on stage weekly and call Russians and I quote here: "'the most barbaric and inhuman' in the world"; it reminds me of nothing less than speeches of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Goebbels trying to dehumanize Jews and Eastern European nationalities as an excuse for mass extermination.
What rhetoric U.S. and European press omits from Zelenski's Ukrainian speeches to his citizens is probably worse.
Coming from a President, that outlines a country's official policy. I consider this both unprofessional and counter productive. I suspect that regardless who's in power in Russia they will still have a problem with this rhetoric coming from Ukraine, period.
Which brings me to my point:
I see that you have a lot of valiant and righteous feelings about it, which in my opinion is very honorable and commendable. Would you, personally, as a soldier or a political figure of a stronger and larger country have an incentive to negotiate with or surrender to another country/military which calls you and your countryman "'the most barbaric and inhuman' in the world"
You know the answer. Why should Russians yield to the Ukrainian demands then?
Link to Zelenski's quote: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10734315/Ukraine-war-Russian-troops-barbaric-inhuman-world-Zelensky-says.html
So all the times a U.S. president has called leaders like Putin names like this, they were wrong? Russians are a peaceful people who've never committed atrocities in their recent history? Russian troops in places like Bucha have not committed barbaric war crimes in this unlawful invasion of Ukraine? To be blunt, if I'm not an inhuman barbarian bent on expansionism, I'm probably going to shrug off the name calling. Everything you just posted proves Zelenski's point. Russia should yield to Ukraine's demands because they are the oppressive invader in this mess, and they're getting 10's of thousands of Russians killed for their troubles!
I believe they went with an anti aircraft missel system on a smaller vehicle. A Marder Roland.
Not a Marder but a Wiesel 2 which is a tiny little thing with 4 Stingers.
Germany, the Gepard was phased out in late 2010 and replaced by Wiesel 2 Ozelot Leichtes Flugabwehrsystem (LeFlaSys) with four FIM-92 Stinger or LFK NG missile launchers.
67948
Everything you just posted proves Zelenski's point. Russia should yield to Ukraine's demands because they are the oppressive invader in this mess, and they're getting 10's of thousands of Russians killed for their troubles!
-- got a little too many drinks yesterday and comments got personal. I apologize for that --
That's really all you had to type.
Yes, and we have the right to dismiss it out of hand.
-- got a little too many drinks yesterday and comments got personal. I apologize for that --
You're an idiot.
Yes, the same as 99.5% people on this board including yourself. You're a shmuck without a real-world knowledge or experience who pretends to on some moral high ground.
LOL, says the guy who thinks Putin is going to give him a medal or something. :rolleyes:
Man I sure wish we could talk about Flakpanzers cause those things really interest me, those little Wiesel 2's also, take one of them and mount 6 Stugna-P's or Javelin's and you got yourself a modern day Ontos. The Ozelot pictured is the Stinger verson but develop a version with 6 ATGM's and get a lot of them/
67953
I don't have a Dog in the fight, but it is however just common sense that if you invade a country, people are going to fight like hell.
Russia didn't need to do this, what do they need from Ukraine that couldn't be negotiated? The problem is negotiations require give and take and Putin wanted to go in with troops and tanks and not negotiate.
So here we are.
Ukraine had 8 years to just TRY and abide by the agreements they signed off on in Minsk yet still made no effort at all.
Instead, the shelling continued and forces were steadily built up to 'retake' the Donbass by force.
Pretty bad move on the part of Zelensky not following the Minsk agreements. Now he is going to completely lose Crimea AND the entire Donbass region. :)
Ukraine had 8 years to just TRY and abide by the agreements they signed off on in Minsk yet still made no effort at all.
Instead, the shelling continued and forces were steadily built up to 'retake' the Donbass by force.
Pretty bad move on the part of Zelensky not following the Minsk agreements. Now he is going to completely lose Crimea AND the entire Donbass region. :)
Prove anything you said above is true.
LOL, says the guy who thinks Putin is going to give him a medal or something. :rolleyes:
I was against supporting Afghans back in the 80's vs Russians. We know how it turned out for us.
I was against supporting Iraq in the 80's vs Iranians. We also know how it turned out for us.
I was against supporting Ukraine in 2015. Around 2017 they sold ballistic missile tech to N. Korea and possibly Iran.
I'm against supporting Ukraine with weapons now because I strongly believe there was a political solution which Ukrainian government rejected; I think their government is a bunch of shysters; giving them more weapons will only prolong this conflict, increase casualties, and cause economic downturn for many countries.
All they had to do was flee or assimilate. I mean that's what you're expecting the Ukrainians to do, right? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Oh, and it's not like those Russian expats in the region were exactly peaceful and on their own either. :rolleyes:
Definitely agree with the part in bold.
Let me know when Russia comes even close to following the 'regime change' examples we have set over and over and over for many years now.
Libya, Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria (attempted to oust Assad but failed), Venezuela (attempted imposing Juan Guiado recently as their 'rightful' president but failed), list goes on and on...
In case you have not figured it out by now, Russia is not going to sit back and 'do nothing' while we pull our regime change shit in their back yard. They stopped that shit in Syria and are now stopping that shit in Ukraine.
Crimea is gone from Ukraine and the entire Donbass region is darn near gone as well. Ukraine is not getting either of those areas back...
Prove anything you said above is true.
You are seriously too lazy to even look up the Minsk agreements on your own to learn about them?
:confused:
You are seriously too lazy to even look up the Minsk agreements on your own to learn about them?
:confused:
Well genius correct me where I am wrong, Ukraine was a county with borders since 1991, Russia supported separatist movement which wanted to rejoin Russia, when separatist started to get their asses kicked Russia invaded and then said hey we'll stop here with just a little bit of your county. Minsk agreement, then insurgents from region continued to attack and try to expand into Ukraine, and Ukraine fought to retain its sovereign territory. So fighting went on instigated from both sides then we had Minsk II and pretty much stalemated. Then in 2022 Russia invades with intention of taking over all of Ukraine. So who is the bad guy?
But I ask you again Russian Stooge, prove any of your allegations about Ukraine being the bad guy and no I won't accept as proof what is written in Russian history books.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-29-22, 21:23
You are seriously too lazy to even look up the Minsk agreements on your own to learn about them?
:confused:
I’ll see your Minsk agreement and raise you a Budapest Memorandum…. If the Russians didn’t violate Ukraine borders, you wouldn’t need the Minsk agreement.
And once again, the Soviet Union and the kleptocrats in the Kremlin LOST THE FRIGGIN COLD WAR. Big and hard. IF you think that we would spend all that time and treasure- and then just- what? Reset as if nothing happened????
Ukraine had 8 years to just TRY and abide by the agreements they signed off on in Minsk yet still made no effort at all.
Instead, the shelling continued and forces were steadily built up to 'retake' the Donbass by force.
Pretty bad move on the part of Zelensky not following the Minsk agreements. Now he is going to completely lose Crimea AND the entire Donbas region. :)
You keep tossing the Minsk Agreement out there like everything was on Ukraine. You know that both sides regularly violated it by shelling, right? And that's not forgetting that after it was signed and agreed to, the Russians refused to implement it until they had achieved the battlefield state they wanted. Hell, invading Ukraine is about the biggest violation of the Minsk agreement as possible. Once again, if this invasion was the result of a long train of abuses, as you would love to argue, why did Putin FOR MONTHS argue that he had no intention of invading Ukraine? Why did you, as well as your fellow propagandists, argue that it was all a Western lie, and Putin would never invade?
And, as mentioned above, what about the Budapest Memorandum? That was violated by Russia well before any agreement Ukraine signed was violated.
Let me know when Russia comes even close to following the 'regime change' examples we have set over and over and over for many years now.
You really aren't the brightest, are you? The entire damn invasion of Ukraine is an attempted regime change, and it wasn't until that failed that they decided to go back to "grab as much territory as you can." American regime change invasions are bad, but when Russia does it it's A-OK? And that's not even getting into the hypocrisy of calling removing dictors is bad, all the while Russia has launched multiple operations to shore up failing dictorial regimes. Change bad, reinstalling dictators good?
Averageman
04-30-22, 10:49
And yet again we have a thread that devolved in to nothing but bickering.
And yet again we have a thread that devolved in to nothing but bickering.
This right here. I've seen more and more of this over the last few months. This has been happening at a scale I never thought I'd see here.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-30-22, 12:17
Ok, OK, you got me.
I’m just jealous that the Ukrainians are getting Flakwagens and I was never offered one, and I can’t afford a G-wagen even…
And yet again we have a thread that devolved in to nothing but bickering.It's the same 3 guys each time.
The topic of this thread is FlakPanzers.
If you're trying to get into a general Russia versus Ukrainian discussion this is not the place for it.
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