View Full Version : Self Defense Ammunition question
So,
Until now,
I've just kept my "serious mags" loaded with duty ammunition, usually 55 grain ballistic tip of some type.
(mostly 55 grain corbon blitz king, with a bit of 55 grain remington ball. tip, and even some honrnady redtip shit that I aint too sure about)
BUT... I'm kinda re-thinking now that my "duty" is refocused (god, family, country, and not that badge).... so i get to choose.... I'm wondering if I shouldn't go heavier on the weight.
Maybe 75 gr BTHP?
All of my rifles are 14.5's and I'm kinda wondering if, being a home defense weapon, heavier might not be better.
Thoughts??
-E
I can’t think of any plastic tipped cup and core .224 bullets that I’d choose for a self defense role. Those are designed for violent fragmentation in varmints.
They definitely won’t over-penetrate, but I don’t consider that enough of a benefit to outweigh minimal penetration.
I’d trust a ~55 grain Sierra GameKing more than a BlitzKing.
I can’t think of any plastic tipped cup and core .224 bullets that I’d choose for a self defense role. Those are designed for violent fragmentation in varmints.
They definitely won’t over-penetrate, but I don’t consider that enough of a benefit to outweigh minimal penetration.
Yeah, I kinda meant 5.56/.223. Sorry.
Both the 64 (now 62) and 75 gr G. D. are accurate, bonded and shot reasonably close to same POI as m193- couple inches at 100 yds.
The 77 gr OTM is very accurate, rates well as a “stopper”, but isn’t bonded/barrier blind.
I run all of the above with confidence.
I'm running 77 gr OTM for home D. But a bonded bullet certainly has some advantages if trouble is beyond the confines of your house.
We shot some 87 gr factory OTM into jell jugs 2 weeks ago, and they were impressive in our unscientific test. I shot an 85gr match burner into a single jug last weekend and it looked good, but i didn't really have deep enough of the gel to make a good assessment cuz I only had 1 jug available.
Defaultmp3
05-17-22, 12:28
Yeah, I kinda meant 5.56/.223. Sorry..224" diameter bullets is what's loaded into .223 Rem/5.56 NATO.
Heavier is not necessarily better, particularly for home defense, as the advantage of better ballistic coefficient doesn't really play in; nor are you using an SBR, so there's minimal advantage there with the longer dwell time. However, the rounds you have listed are certainly going to be considered by most to be substandard for any kind of duty/self-defense use, as they are not designed for barrier blind use.
Obligatory copy/paste:
Only after proper foundational and ongoing repetitive refresher training, cultivating warrior mind-set, and ensuring weapon system reliability do you need to worry about ammunition selection. Most folks would be far better off practicing with what they have, rather than worrying about what is "best". As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement. I would much rather go into battle with a guy who practices 15,000 rounds a year using generic 55 gr FMJ out of his old M16A1 than with some guy that has the latest state-of-the-art ammo and rifle, but only shoots 500 rounds a year. If you need to delve into the arcane subject of agency duty ammunition selection, below are the state of the art choices in 5.56 mm/.223:
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For LE Patrol use, where there is a high incidence of potential engagements around or involving vehicles, ammunition that is able to effectively penetrate intermediate barriers, particularly vehicle glass is critical. The best LE 5.56 mm/.223 loads for intermediate barrier penetration using 1/9 and faster twist barrels are the 5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3) and 5.56 mm Winchester 64 gr solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B) developed for the FBI, along with the outstanding new Black Hills 5.56 mm 50 gr TSX loading. The Hornady 5.56 mm 55 gr GMX is another acceptable option. Note that these are all true 5.56 mm loads that require a real milspec 5.56 mm chamber, not a SAAMI .223 chamber--be sure to check with an appropriate gauge or reamer. Most other acceptable LE barrier blind loadings are at .223 pressures, including the .223 55 & 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical loads (LE223T1 & LE223T3), along with loads using Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP, Remington 62 gr Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded JSP (PRC223R4), .223 Federal 55 gr TSX (T223S), .223 Horn 55 gr GMX, and the .223 Speer 62/64 gr Gold Dot JSP's (and identically constructed Federal 62 gr Fusion JSP and Federal XM223SP1 62gr Bonded JSP). The Speer 75 gr Gold Dot JSP and Swift 75 gr Scirocco bonded PT are also good choices, but usually require a 1/7 twist. Note that the Barnes all copper TSX bullets are great projectiles and offer good penetration through barriers, however, when first hitting a laminated automobile windshield intermediate barrier, most TSX bullets exhibit less expansion than bonded JSP’s, as the Barnes jacket either collapses at the nose, the jacket "petals" fold back against the core, or the "petals" are torn off; this results in a caliber size projectile configured a lot like a full wadcutter, leading to deep penetration. If running 1/12 twist barrels, stick with the BH 50 gr TSX, Fed 55 gr TBBC, Fed 55 gr TSX, Horn 55 gr GMX, or Speer 55 gr Gold Dot. NONE of the fragmenting 5.56 mm OTM bullets, even the heavy 75 - 100 gr loads, offer acceptable performance through automobile windshield glass. Contrary to what many believe, M193 & M855 FMJ are not very good against glass; the best military 5.56 mm load against glass is 52 gr M995 AP, followed by the 62 gr Mk318 Mod0 OTM and 70 gr Optimal "brown tip" OTM.
In those situations where intermediate barrier penetration is not a critical requirement, for example LE urban entries or long range shots in open conditions, then OTM, JHP, and standard JSP loads can offer acceptable performance. For 1/7 twist barrels, the Hornady 75 gr OTM, Nosler 77 gr OTM, and Sierra 77 gr SMK OTM are all good choices. The experimental BH loaded 100 gr OTM exhibits impressive fragmentation, even at relatively low velocities, however while capable of shooting out to 600, it is optimized for 200 and under. If stuck with 1/9 twist barrels, the heavy 70+ gr loads are not universally accurate in all rifles and the 69 gr SMK OTM, the 68 gr Hornady OTM, the Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2), the Federal 64 gr TRU (T223L) JSP, Hornady 60 gr JSP, are likely to run accurately in the majority of 1/9 twist rifles. Again it is critical to keep in mind that the above loads fail to offer adequate penetration through intermediate barriers.
For longer range engagements using precision weapons like the Mk12 SPR or DMR rifles with faster 1/8 or 1/7 twist barrels, one of the combat proven 5.56 mm (ie. 5.56 mm NATO pressure loads, not .223 SAAMI pressure loads which run about 200 f/s slower) heavy OTM loadings are a good choice: the Barnes 70 gr TSX (Optimized "browntip"), Hornady 75 gr TAP (#8126N), Nosler 77 gr, or the Sierra 77 gr Match King (Mk262 Mod1) and 77 gr Tipped Match King.
Short barreled 5.56 mm weapons, such as the Colt Commando, Mk18 CQBR, HK416, HK53, HK G36C, etc… offer advantages in confined spaces. With SBR’s it is best to stick with the barrier blind loads recommended above, although the heavy OTM's suggested for long distance shooting will also work. SBR's can run into rotational velocity issues with some loads, so it is generally best to select faster 1/7 twist barrels whenever possible. Remember, with SBR’s, effective engagement distances are significantly reduced compared to the longer barreled carbines.
Keep in mind, that with non-fragmenting bullet designs, heavier bullet weights are not necessarily better, especially at closer ranges and from shorter barrels. As long as penetration and upset remain adequate, it is possible to use lighter weight non-fragmenting bullets and still have outstanding terminal performance. With fragmenting designs, a heavier bullet is ideal, as it provides more potential fragments and still allows the central core to have enough mass for adequate penetration. In addition, heavier bullets may have an advantage at longer ranges due to better BC and less wind drift.
Whatever projectile is used, it is best with a cannelure to prevent bullet set-back in semi-auto/auto weapons. Also, be cautious with the exposed lead on some JSP designs. Often they will run great for up to 200-300 rounds, but then mysterious feeding failures will begin as a result of lead build-up on the feed ramps. I have personally seen this occur with a variety of JSP's including 55 gr, 60 gr, and 64 gr in LE training courses. As soon as FMJ or OTM was substituted, all the feeding failures ceased.
Be sure to watch your ammo storage conditions. Temperatures above 150 deg F will degrade the powder and cause pressure spikes. Hint: Think locked metal conex containers in the mid-east, car trunks in the southern U.S., and storage areas near heaters in the northern U.S. Also be cautions of leaving a round in a very hot chamber; besides the obvious danger of a cook-off, the powder can also be damaged by the heat, leading to dramatically increased pressures when the round is eventually fired.
A large SWAT team in this area had a failure to fire from an M4 with Hornady TAP ammo during an entry--fortunately no officers were hurt and the suspect immediately threw down his weapon when the carbine went click instead of bang. After the incident was concluded, the team went to the range and expended the rest of their carbine ammo and had one additional failure to fire. This same team had 3 Hornady TAP rounds fail to fire in training a couple of years ago. When Pat Rogers was teaching a class at a nearby agency, there were 5 failures to fire using Hornady TAP ammo. In all 10 cases, there appeared to be good primer strikes, but no rounds fired. On analysis, the ammunition had powder and checked out otherwise.
However, despite what appeared to be good primer strikes, two problems were discovered. First, when accurately measured, some of the primer strikes had insufficient firing pin indentations. The failed round from the potential OIS incident had a primer strike of only .013"—the minimum firing pin indent for ignition is .017". In addition, the primers on the other rounds were discovered to have been damaged from repeated chambering. When the same cartridge is repeatedly chambered in the AR15, the floating firing pin lightly taps the primer; with repeated taps, the primer compound gets crushed, resulting in inadequate ignition characteristics--despite what appears to be a normal firing pin impression. Once a round has been chambered, DO NOT RE-CHAMBER IT for duty use. Do NOT re-chamber it again, except for training. This is CRITICAL!!!
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Many LE agencies around here used the Hornady 75 gr TAP OTM, Winchester 64 gr JSP (it was on the state contract for very low cost), and similar Fed 64 gr JSP TRU load (223L)--all have worked well in actual officer involved shootings against unobstructed targets. However in the wake of the serious terminal performance failures by non-bonded .223 64 gr JSP's due to inadequate penetration into the criminal's Toyota Tundra truck in the July 2010 CHP OIS incident in Oakland, quite a few agencies here switched to general issue of Barrier Blind loads like the 55 & 64 gr Gold Dot loads, along with the 55 & 62 gr TBBC loads that previously saw more limited use.
Do short barrel 5.56 mm carbines have some limitations? Yes, especially beyond 100 yards, but BFD…learn what they are, train, and drive on. Despite the ballistic compromise, for LE urban work with lots of entries, the 10.5-12.5” BCM, Colt, Centurian, LaRue, LMT Mk18/Commando style weapons w/Aimpoint RDS's are the best weapon types for this mission. For GP LE Patrol use, properly built AR15's like the 14.5-16” BCM, Colt, LMT, LaRue, Centurian carbines with Aimpoint RDS's and 3x magnifiers in quick detach flip mounts like the LaRue LT649 are superb choices (quality variable optics like a S&B 1.1-4x Short Dot, NF 1.1-4x, or Trijicon 1-4x are also good options) -- pick the right tool for the job.
.224" diameter bullets is what's loaded into .223 Rem/5.56 NATO.
[/I]
Oh... I thought you were intentionally poking at me for not stating, explicitly, my caliber in the first post. My bad, sir!
Just trying to be a good citizen here.
Thanks!
-E
titsonritz
05-17-22, 13:18
Both the 64 (now 62) and 75 gr G. D. are accurate, bonded and shot reasonably close to same POI as m193- couple inches at 100 yds.
The 77 gr OTM is very accurate, rates well as a “stopper”, but isn’t bonded/barrier blind.
I run all of the above with confidence.
I have 62gr GD and 77gr Black Hills OTM in my serious use guns.
Oh... I thought you were intentionally poking at me for not stating, explicitly, my caliber in the first post. My bad, sir!
Just trying to be a good citizen here.
Thanks!
-E
Could start by putting ammo related discussions in the ammo related forum. ;)
https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?91-Terminal-Ballistic-Information
ViperTwoSix
05-17-22, 13:34
I usually stick with this as a general guide.
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#mozTocId998203
“If barrier penetration is NOT an important factor AND your rifle can stabilize them (minimum 1:9 twist rate):
Hornady 75gr OTM loads
Nosler 77gr OTM loads
Sierra 77gr SMK loads
If barrier penetration is NOT an important factor AND your rifle can't stabilize the heavy 70+ grain bullets:
Sierra 69gr SMK loads
Hornady 68gr OTM loads
Winchester 64gr JSP (RA223R2)
Federal 64gr TRU (223L)
Hornady 60gr JSP
If your rifle is 1:12 or slower twist rate or can only shoot lighter-weight bullets:
55gr Federal bonded JSP load (LE223T1 or P223T2)
Barnes 55gr TSX/TAC-X
50gr TSX loaded by Black Hills*
If barrier penetration IS an important factor:
62gr Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3)*
64gr Winchester solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B)*
50gr TSX loaded by Black Hills*
Speer 55 & 64gr Gold Dot JSP (5.56)*
Federal 62gr Mk318 Mod0 (T556TNB1)*
62gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3)
55gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical––LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle––P223T2)
Swift 75gr Scirocco (usually requires 1:7 twist)
60gr Nosler Partition JSP
Remington 62gr bonded JSP
Federal 55gr TSX (T223S)
Speer 55 & 64gr Gold Dot JSP (.223)
Federal 62gr Fusion JSP (Same construction as the Gold Dot)”
Coming from ARFtard, that's actually not a terrible set of recommendations.
Yeah, I'd probably rethink the light "ballistic tip" loads for the reasons others have mentioned (violent fragment before reaching adequate penetration depth)
I have my current ready mags loaded with XM556FBIT3s (62gr TBBC). Prior to grabbing those, I used the 223 62gr Remington Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded. I also have a fair stash of 5.56 77gr IMI Razor Core OTMs that could be pressed into SD service if needed.
But it all depends upon your usage requirements modulo what's available to buy these days... (the list a couple posts up from this one looks like good recommendations)
Edited to add:
Looks like SGAmmo currently has stock of 223 55gr Gold Dots in box and case quantities:
https://www.sgammo.com/product/223-556mm-ammo/20-round-box-223-rem-55-grain-gdsp-speer-gold-dot-personal-protection-ammo-24
https://www.sgammo.com/product/223-556mm-ammo/200-round-case-223-rem-55-grain-gdsp-speer-gold-dot-personal-protection-ammo-
Coming from ARFtard, that's actually not a terrible set of recommendations.
Most of that was cited from Doc Roberts (RIP to his membership here).
I haven’t shot it past 50m but at this distances, I was happily surprised that I didn’t notice any POI difference between 77gr FGMM and 75gr FMJ AE (which has also matched 75gr Gold Dot for me).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We have put a lot of people in the dirt with 55g SP. Our brethren in the county have done with same with 55 grain ball (5.56). Just north of us, they use 55g TRU, and have also had solid real world results.
The question is always going to come up of what the "BEST" is, but I'm not sure there is a single best round. Heavier stuff certainly gets the ooohs and ahhhs, but like I said above, a lot of Gods work has been successfully done with cheaper alternatives.
We are always going to jump in with the barrier penetration questions when we discuss ammo, but I'm looking at barrier penetration as an issue at the Stick Compound, I'll bring 7.62 nato out to play.
Most of that was cited from Doc Roberts (RIP to his membership here).
Yes, very much so. I wish that whatever issues had come up, that things would have ended different. I've talked to the good Doc via phone multiple times, and he is a good guy.
We have put a lot of people in the dirt with 55g SP. Our brethren in the county have done with same with 55 grain ball (5.56). Just north of us, they use 55g TRU, and have also had solid real world results.
Yeah. Guys will talk about lighter stuff like it's some sort of "less than lethal" option. I sure wouldn't want to try to survive a hit from any of the lighter options out there.
Yeah. Guys will talk about lighter stuff like it's some sort of "less than lethal" option. I sure wouldn't want to try to survive a hit from any of the lighter options out there.
Well, I've witnessed what the blitzking will do. It's not lovely to look upon.
Well, I've witnessed what the blitzking will do. It's not lovely to look upon.
I doubt one would say with uncertainty... "I think I've been shot" :D
I doubt one would say with uncertainty... "I think I've been shot" :D
Wild hogs surely do not. It tears those hearty suckers a new a-- without argument.
Defaultmp3
05-17-22, 14:54
Well, I've witnessed what the blitzking will do. It's not lovely to look upon. The problem with the BlitzKing isn't that it's 55 gr, it's that it isn't barrier blind.
It is also nice to have an option of picking up a thousand rounds of something, as opposed to boxing yourself into just filling X amount of magazines. I have mags located all over the place, as well as what I refer as "go bags" just for ammo. If I were only using 77 or 69 grain, there wouldn't be near as many mags preloaded and ready to go.
Once upon a time I was with a department that only allowed one magazine for duty use, and if you were friends with the right people, you could have 40 rounds. What a total load of crap, my squads knew to hit my cruiser as an emergency supply to get armor or ammo.
The problem with the BlitzKing isn't that it's 55 gr, it's that it isn't barrier blind.
You are confused good sir if you think departments want to spend money on ammo which is looked at as "specialty ammo" for regular patrol units. Even if we are talking about personal household and property protection, there are still pros and cons to everything.
Defaultmp3
05-17-22, 15:05
You are confused good sir if you think departments want to spend money on ammo which is looked at as "specialty ammo" for regular patrol units. Even if we are talking about personal household and property protection, there are still pros and cons to everything.I am well aware that issued ammo is often subpar; even the manufacturers will market it as such, such as the many varieties of Hornady TAP that aren't barrier blind. That doesn't mean that BlitzKing should be considered a good option if given the opportunity and ability to swap it out in personal guns, given that heavier OTMs have similar penetration and barrier characteristics, but with superior external ballistics.
Can an argument be made that they're a "good enough" option? Sure. If that's all you got, and you have other priorities (and don't we all), it'll definitely do the job. But if you're gonna be asking for advice to min-max, then, well, it's a pretty shit choice, IMO.
It is also nice to have an option of picking up a thousand rounds of something, as opposed to boxing yourself into just filling X amount of magazines. I have mags located all over the place, as well as what I refer as "go bags" just for ammo. If I were only using 77 or 69 grain, there wouldn't be near as many mags preloaded and ready to go.
Once upon a time I was with a department that only allowed one magazine for duty use, and if you were friends with the right people, you could have 40 rounds. What a total load of crap, my squads knew to hit my cruiser as an emergency supply to get armor or ammo.
I used to say this, about my old department's administration: "It is very easy to make decisions... that YOU yourself will never have to live with."
I used to say this, about my old department's administration: "It is very easy to make decisions... that YOU yourself will never have to live with."
I was being lectured one time by a captain, and he was questioning something stupid which I can't even recall, but it was weapon related. All I could think of while he was talking was the last time he had worked patrol, cops didn't carry radios. With 35/40 years on the department he was so out of his depth that he could only prattle about policy, which of course was written by people who also had no idea what they were talking about.
He also created his own use of force table/ladder/ continuum which he was very proud of. The problem was it was excessively wordy, with most of it needing to be flushed down the toilet. It became a game for some people in which they would simply cut and paste the policy part, then slap whatever they wanted on the other side. The Sgts and brass would bless off on anything that contained the magic buzzwords they were so proud of.
I was being lectured one time by a captain, and he was questioning something stupid which I can't even recall, but it was weapon related. All I could think of while he was talking was the last time he had worked patrol, cops didn't carry radios. With 35/40 years on the department he was so out of his depth that he could only prattle about policy, which of course was written by people who also had no idea what they were talking about.
He also created his own use of force table/ladder/ continuum which he was very proud of. The problem was it was excessively wordy, with most of it needing to be flushed down the toilet. It became a game for some people in which they would simply cut and paste the policy part, then slap whatever they wanted on the other side. The Sgts and brass would bless off on anything that contained the magic buzzwords they were so proud of.
One of our Captains, the one that I butted heads with the most, had a grand total of 2 years as a patrol officer. TWO YEARS. And I threw taht into the conversation every time I got the chance. He was a Blevit.
I run mk262 mod1 77gr but keep in mind, a lot of gooks got slayed with m193 ball...
One of our Captains, the one that I butted heads with the most, had a grand total of 2 years as a patrol officer. TWO YEARS. And I threw taht into the conversation every time I got the chance. He was a Blevit.
You have no idea how happy it makes me to have someone else feel my pain. From the bottom of my heart, thank you, and yes, I feel bad for both of us.
Next thing we can bitch about it women who can't pass quals on the first attempt, but study all shift long and miss calls so they can promote to detective or Sgt. Its not only women, just a reoccurring theme.
I run mk262 mod1 77gr but keep in mind, a lot of gooks got slayed with m193 ball...
Affirm, no way around it.
You have no idea how happy it makes me to have someone else feel my pain. From the bottom of my heart, thank you, and yes, I feel bad for both of us.
Next thing we can bitch about it women who can't pass quals on the first attempt, but study all shift long and miss calls so they can promote to detective or Sgt. Its not only women, just a reoccurring theme.
Brother... I didn't even know you COULD hit the concrete at the 7 yard line. I was a Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor for 18 years, and we used to fight over who was forced to qualify Admin. They were frightening.
And I got so many "unqualified supervisor" stories I wouldn't know where to begin. So yes, I feel your pain. To depths of my soul LOL.
Hammer_Man
05-20-22, 10:45
I think a lot of you are over thinking this. No home intruder/cat burglar/rioter/anarchist commie/space zombie is going to brush off a well placed shot of 55 grain hard ball. If you’re worried about barrier performance, I ask what barriers would you need to penetrate, what self defense scenario are you picturing exactly??
If you’re worried about barrier performance, I ask what barriers would you need to penetrate, what self defense scenario are you picturing exactly??
In the context of deteriorating morals in American Culture, and the rise in racist activity/rioting by hate groups like Black Lives Matter, I don't think it's unrealistic to want an auto glass penetrating round any longer.
For me the concern of long gun defense has expanded beyond the scope of home defense only scenarios. And for the first time, I'm considering options beyond the glorious Mk262 frag master. So mostly automobile material is the barrier consideration for me.
There have been lots of good recommendations. But I’m surprised 77gr SMK has been mentioned so much and yet 77gr TMK has not. It isn’t barrier blind, but if you’re not concerned with shooting into or out of cars, then it has extremely reliable fragmentation and does so well into mid-range.
There have been lots of good recommendations. But I’m surprised 77gr SMK has been mentioned so much and yet 77gr TMK has not. It isn’t barrier blind, but if you’re not concerned with shooting into or out of cars, then it has extremely reliable fragmentation and does so well into mid-range.
The TMK fragments even better than the equivalent OTM. It would make an outstanding house load especially if a fellow is an overpenetration-phobic character.
Brother... I didn't even know you COULD hit the concrete at the 7 yard line. I was a Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor for 18 years, and we used to fight over who was forced to qualify Admin. They were frightening.
And I got so many "unqualified supervisor" stories I wouldn't know where to begin. So yes, I feel your pain. To depths of my soul LOL.
Gotta love when admin finally manages to draw their gun and fires off a round directly into the ground three feet in front of them, or the one that tried to do a speed load using his pager instead of his magazine, and it goes on and on.
I think a lot of you are over thinking this. No home intruder/cat burglar/rioter/anarchist commie/space zombie is going to brush off a well placed shot of 55 grain hard ball. If you’re worried about barrier performance, I ask what barriers would you need to penetrate, what self defense scenario are you picturing exactly??
Bullets that do well against the auto glass test also do well against bones.
Think about sub optimal angles or an arm pointing a gun at you. Are there places in a home where an intruder might hide behind a counter, refrigerator, or exterior door. People tend to wear multiple layers of thick clothes in the winter in many places.
The option to pick a barrier blind load tends to improve your odds against a worst case scenario and isn’t that big of cost premium for a few go mags.
In the context of deteriorating morals in American Culture, and the rise in racist activity/rioting by hate groups like Black Lives Matter, I don't think it's unrealistic to want an auto glass penetrating round any longer.
For me the concern of long gun defense has expanded beyond the scope of home defense only scenarios. And for the first time, I'm considering options beyond the glorious Mk262 frag master. So mostly automobile material is the barrier consideration for me.
Windshield glass in funky, not just with the glass, but with the multiple angles often involved.
We have put a lot of people in the dirt with 55g SP. Our brethren in the county have done with same with 55 grain ball (5.56). Just north of us, they use 55g TRU, and have also had solid real world results.
The question is always going to come up of what the "BEST" is, but I'm not sure there is a single best round. Heavier stuff certainly gets the ooohs and ahhhs, but like I said above, a lot of Gods work has been successfully done with cheaper alternatives.
We are always going to jump in with the barrier penetration questions when we discuss ammo, but I'm looking at barrier penetration as an issue at the Stick Compound, I'll bring 7.62 nato out to play.
I prefer M193 55g FMJ. It's accurate enough and will get the job done.
I can think of three occasions, in the Midwest, in which a violent suspect was quickly stopped with M193 55g FMJ fired from a 16" carbine. Those shootings all occurred inside of 30 yards. I can think of one occasion in which a violent suspect was quickly stopped with Federal 55g JSP fired from a 14.5" carbine. That shooting occurred inside a walk in closet.
I chronographed training and duty ammunition using an Armalite patrol carbine with 16" barrel for those that are interested.
Federal M193 55g FMJ - AV-3065 fps, ES/SD-49/19 fps
Remington 55g FMJ - AV-2847 fps, ES/SD-61/21 fps
Winchester 55g JSP - AV-2949 fps, ES/SD-46/17 fps
Federal 55g JSP - AV-2953 fps, ES/SD-86/42 fps
Windshield glass in funky, not just with the glass, but with the multiple angles often involved.
Yeah. All I know is hold slightly low if shooting in from the front of the vehicle. I never tried bonded into auto glass with 5.56 though.
Yeah. All I know is hold slightly low if shooting in from the front of the vehicle. I never tried bonded into auto glass with 5.56 though.
If you get a chance to test bonded 5.56mm ammunition on car windshields, I would certainly be interested in your results, especially angle of impact on the outside of the windshield and angle of exit inside the vehicle.
If you get a chance to test bonded 5.56mm ammunition on car windshields, I would certainly be interested in your results, especially angle of impact on the outside of the windshield and angle of exit inside the vehicle.
Someone here has probably done this (LE guys I'd guess). I've only shot auto glass once years back, and I didn't have bonded. Everything 5.56 sucked... even M855.
I can't remember where I saw heard that you hold a little low for straight on car windshield shots... but it wasn't some youtuber douchebag or anything. It was a legit source.
Defaultmp3
05-20-22, 15:00
Someone here has probably done this (LE guys I'd guess). I've only shot auto glass once years back, and I didn't have bonded. Everything 5.56 sucked... even M855.
I can't remember where I saw heard that you hold a little low for straight on car windshield shots... but it wasn't some youtuber douchebag or anything. It was a legit source. If shooting laminated glass, AP does best, followed by bonded, then monolithics. M855 does not perform noticeably better than M193.
Bullets deflect up when shooting out of a vehicle's front windshield; they deflect down when shooting into the front windshield. How much deflection depends on the angle of impact. Realistically, shooting out a vehicle sucks, due to the fact that the deflection can be massive, due to the fact that it happens at the very beginning of the bullet's flight, and thus impacts the trajectory significantly, hence why folks strongly recommend simply creating a big enough hole to shoot out of without the bullet impacting the windshield at all. On the flip side, shooting into a vehicle through the front isn't such a big deal, since the deflection occurs only at the very end of the trajectory, and thus has much less of an impact on the overall change in POA/POI.
Bullets deflect up when shooting out of a vehicle's front windshield; they deflect down when shooting into the front windshield. How much deflection depends on the angle of impact.
I think I have my hold backwards for "into" shots. My brain was thinking favor low... which would work anyway on a seated passenger or driver.
vicious_cb
05-20-22, 15:32
If you are concerned about auto glass then I wouldnt be running 55gr anything. Even a bonded round will lose 50% or more of its mass after going through auto glass. For barrier blind I would go as heavy as possible. Hence why I like rounds like 75gr Gold Dot.
I don't use anything as light as 55 gr unless we're blowing up grape fruits. Even blaster ammo is at least 62 gr stuff.
If you are concerned about auto glass then I wouldnt be running 55gr anything. Even a bonded round will lose 50% or more of its mass after going through auto glass. For barrier blind I would go as heavy as possible. Hence why I like rounds like 75gr Gold Dot.
The Black Hills variant of the 50gr TSX is an exception I’d say. And would be great for those departments still using surplus M16s with 1/12 twist barrels.
Someone here has probably done this (LE guys I'd guess). I've only shot auto glass once years back, and I didn't have bonded. Everything 5.56 sucked... even M855.
I can't remember where I saw heard that you hold a little low for straight on car windshield shots... but it wasn't some youtuber douchebag or anything. It was a legit source.
When I worked in the St. Louis Metro area, I had access to auto salvage yards that would let me test ammunition on cars and trucks before they were scrapped. I never had the opportunity to shoot bonded ammunition into auto glass or door panels.
I no longer have access to vehicles for testing purposes.
These choices are often more about degrees of better, than good vs bad.
People get waaaaay too focused on weight.
I standardized on Federal XM193. I can use it in any 5.56 AR independent of twist rate. I practice, test, and zero my rifles with the same ammo. If I were to need to borrow ammo, the most common available will be some M193 variant.
These choices are often more about degrees of better, than good vs bad.
People get waaaaay too focused on weight.
I’m pretty focused on heavier weight bullets, but it’s usually due to higher BCs that are often found with heavier bullets. There are exceptions of course though. And higher BC isn’t always needed, depending on the purpose. But I tend to gravitate towards heavier/higher BC as long as terminal performance meets the use case needs.
I standardized on Federal XM193. I can use it in any 5.56 AR independent of twist rate. I practice, test, and zero my rifles with the same ammo. If I were to need to borrow ammo, the most common available will be some M193 variant.
Have you tested any barrier blind 55gr and even other weight barrier blind loads to test your theory?
Yes, bullets deflect downward when shooting in. Think of it like a lens, and hold their face. The degree to which that occurs can only be divined with tea leaves after sacrificing a horse or three goats. Just kidding; its more predictable than that, but varies a bit with ammo. I’ve seen projectiles that frag and may or may not hit the target, I’ve seen projectiles that deflect predictably, and I’ve seen projectiles somehow travel straight and arrive mostly as advertised. Also, if its worth shooting into a vehicle, its likely worth doing a good bit of that. If doing this at close range, I’d infinitely prefer to be aside the vehicle, and preferably outside its turning radius in reverse.
Shooting out of a vehicle through glass should be avoided at nearly all costs, due to a cloud of glass dust for your eyes and lungs, deafness, not being able to see through your windshield, ft/lbs of Crown Vic, legal reasons etc. Maybe the idiots driving around in N95s, gloves, and face shields were doing it right.
For the scenarios already discussed (shooting through arms outstretched holding a pistol, general use, vehicles), I’d choose a bonded soft point as my first choice, preferably above 60gr. Fusion MSR is good stuff, as is Gold Dot 75. There’s also a Winchester or Nosler one, but I can’t remember which.
M855a1 is good stuff for these scenarios if you legally have access to it.
I’m surprised no on has mentioned 70TSX yet. Barnes sells a load of it that is near identical to the Brown Tip ammo. My zeros with that, 69gr match, and Fusion MSR 62 are all close enough together for their intended purposes. For OTM match ammo, I wouldn’t consider anything less than 75gr, unless its for …. match purposes.
Sure, M193 works, but it’d be close to the bottom of my list if I have the choice for a few reasons. Same with M855.
titsonritz
05-22-22, 16:07
Dr. Gary Roberts quoting Dr. Martin Fackler on M193
5.56 mm 55 gr M193 Terminal Performance Thoughts (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4343-5-56-mm-55-gr-M193-Terminal-Performance-Thoughts)
Dr. Gary Roberts quoting Dr. Martin Fackler on M193
5.56 mm 55 gr M193 Terminal Performance Thoughts (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4343-5-56-mm-55-gr-M193-Terminal-Performance-Thoughts)
Gud nuf.
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I think before selecting a defensive cartridge, you may want to ask yourself some questions.
What is the environment that you are most likely to find yourself in a defensive situation? You will most likely be at home with interior walls being a concern? Will your attacker likely being wearing armor or not?
Will you most likely find yourself outdoors with natural barriers? What will be the range of your most likely distance of engagement? 50 yard to 100 yards or inside 50 feet?
Are you in a profession where you will most likely have to shoot into or out of vehicles? Will you need a projectile that will penetrate an auto windshield or a door pillar?
What barrel length will you be using? A pistol? A 16" carbine? Do you have access to military grade ammunition if you select a 77g projectile? Will your choice of weapon push the 77g projectile at the same velocity as military personnel who have successfully used the round in their service weapon?
Firearm projectiles are unpredictable. A Crime Scene Technician responded to a local hospital where a suicidal subject was taken for treatment. The subject pressed the muzzle of a Sig Sauer P220 against his head and shot himself with a 230g FMJ round. The projectile penetrated the skin, but not the skull. The projectile followed the skull to the other side of his head where the doctor made an incision and recovered the projectile from just under the skin. He had a hell of a headache, but was otherwise fine.
Whatever .223 or 5.56mm ammunition you pick, train to placed multiple rounds on your violent attacker.
If shooting laminated glass, AP does best, followed by barrier blind, then monolithics. M855 does not perform noticeably better than M193.
Bullets deflect up when shooting out of a vehicle's front windshield; they deflect down when shooting into the front windshield. How much deflection depends on the angle of impact. Realistically, shooting out a vehicle sucks, due to the fact that the deflection can be massive, due to the fact that it happens at the very beginning of the bullet's flight, and thus impacts the trajectory significantly, hence why folks strongly recommend simply creating a big enough hole to shoot out of without the bullet impacting the windshield at all. On the flip side, shooting into a vehicle through the front isn't such a big deal, since the deflection occurs only at the very end of the trajectory, and thus has much less of an impact on the overall change in POA/POI.
Whew, I was reading this thread and saw that "aim low from outside" comment someone posted and thought it ran counter what I've been told. Not dogging the poster at all but IIRC you shoot a "little" high from outside a windshield. Kinda like the uphill and downhill thing (hold low, correct?)
IIRC you shoot a "little" high from outside a windshield.
I think I might have been confusing the hold with leading an approaching vehicle in the context of vehicle born IED.
I think before selecting a defensive cartridge, you may want to ask yourself some questions.
What is the environment that you are most likely to find yourself in a defensive situation? You will most likely be at home with interior walls being a concern? Will your attacker likely being wearing armor or not?
Will you most likely find yourself outdoors with natural barriers? What will be the range of your most likely distance of engagement? 50 yard to 100 yards or inside 50 feet?
Are you in a profession where you will most likely have to shoot into or out of vehicles? Will you need a projectile that will penetrate an auto windshield or a door pillar?
What barrel length will you be using? A pistol? A 16" carbine? Do you have access to military grade ammunition if you select a 77g projectile? Will your choice of weapon push the 77g projectile at the same velocity as military personnel who have successfully used the round in their service weapon?
Agreed. I like to think of the "if you had to pick ONE round for all situations" scenario. You want barrier penetration (but not needing to shoot through a M1 Abrams) and you want good terminal ballistics. I wouldn't pick a 55gr anything for that role.
Probably a 62gr+ bonded or penetrating load. M855A1 comes to mind but is expensive as hell if you can find it; MK318 is similar in performance specs (yet not the bullet makeup itself) and would be a valid substitute. The 62gr TBBC 5.56mm pressure "FBI load" would be another but it isn't a tack-driver. The 62gr BH 5.56mm TSX offering is yet another. From what I've read 64/62gr Gold Dots, although .223 pressures, are pretty good. Can't forget the 5.56mm 70gr TSX (or Hornady's GMX version) that 1168 mentioned, in 5.56 pressure and requiring a large checkbook!
I have quite a bit of IMI Razor 77gr ammo but it's not in my "grab-and-go" mags. For home defense I rely on handguns, maybe a 12 gauge, unless I see a situation developing where a long-gun might be needed....but it's always there for the grabbin' if necessary!
I spent a good deal of $$$ over the last 7 or 8 years (during the "salad days") buying good ammo, a little at a time. Plain old M855 and M193 are for zeroing and practicing with what I have. I would hate to have to stock up on large amounts of premium ammo these days.
One More Time
05-22-22, 20:37
Good ammo for a decent price is pretty hard to find.
I seen some 855a1 on a local forum for $3.50 ea, had to pass.
I did stock up on some Mk318 mod1 when it was about $.70 a round, haven't seen any more since then.
I've been moving away from buying 193 for practice and stocking up on 855 instead.
My last order it was cheaper than the 193 I've been getting.
. From what I've read 64/62gr Gold Dots, although .223 pressures, are pretty good.
I believe the 62gr Gold Dot and Fusion is the same projectile. Regular Fusion, with a deer on the box, is loaded lightly, like Gold Dot. Fusion MSR, with an AR on the box, is marked .223, but is closer to the upper limit, where there is overlap with 5.56. It also has sealant, like Gold Dot. Don’t let the velocities listed on the boxes confuse you; they are taken at different barrel lengths.
One More Time
05-23-22, 08:15
From poking around on youtube, the MSR had 2868 fps from a 16" barrel.
M855 was 2920 from a 16"
Not much on SGD 62 gr but the listed 3,000 fps must have been with a 20" barrel.
From poking around on youtube, the MSR had 2868 fps from a 16" barrel.
M855 was 2920 from a 16"
Not much on SGD 62 gr but the listed 3,000 fps must have been with a 20" barrel.
24”, I think.
I believe the 62gr Gold Dot and Fusion is the same projectile. Regular Fusion, with a deer on the box, is loaded lightly, like Gold Dot. Fusion MSR, with an AR on the box, is marked .223, but is closer to the upper limit, where there is overlap with 5.56. It also has sealant, like Gold Dot. Don’t let the velocities listed on the boxes confuse you; they are taken at different barrel lengths.
Last time I looked, the MSR round was as hard to find as the others I mentioned. Been a while though.
EDIT: looked at the first page or two of Google and found that only Federal itself had it advertised as "in stock" for $35.99 a box ($1.80 per round).
I believe the 62gr Gold Dot and Fusion is the same projectile. Regular Fusion, with a deer on the box, is loaded lightly, like Gold Dot. Fusion MSR, with an AR on the box, is marked .223, but is closer to the upper limit, where there is overlap with 5.56. It also has sealant, like Gold Dot. Don’t let the velocities listed on the boxes confuse you; they are taken at different barrel lengths.
From poking around on youtube, the MSR had 2868 fps from a 16" barrel.
M855 was 2920 from a 16"Not much on SGD 62 gr but the listed 3,000 fps must have been with a 20" barrel.
62 GDSP 24445SP, 16" 1/8, unsuppressed, my data
5-shot group, magnetospeed IIRC, avg 2660, SD 49
12-shot group, oehler something or other, avg 2649, SD 31
I know I have one from a labradar but can't find. It was about the same. About the same from other barrels, too.
62 GDSP 24445SP, 16" 1/8, unsuppressed, my data
5-shot group, magnetospeed IIRC, avg 2660, SD 49
12-shot group, oehler something or other, avg 2649, SD 31
I know I have one from a labradar but can't find. It was about the same. About the same from other barrels, too.
Molon, I think, found Gold Dot to be between Fusion and MSR in velocity. (Edit, here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Federal-62-Grain-Fusion-vs-Federal-62-Grain-Fusion-MSR-vs-Speer-LE-62-Grain-Gold-Dot/16-687846/ ) Or perhaps my memory fails me. My 16” data shows MSR to match your Gold Dot data, but the barrel I used was quite slow; matched by a 12.3” with other cartridges. I can’t find any chrono data I’ve collected from SBR’s, though I thought I did.
I wonder if Gold Dot has changed to mimic the MSR. That might make sense.
Edit: this dude on TOS (Eagle_19er) found a big difference in 64gr Gold Dot and MSR in 4 barrel lengths. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediafiles/23126/SD-Ammo-SxS-233178.JPG Maybe my info is simply outdated and precedes the 62gr Gold Dot load.
Someone here has probably done this (LE guys I'd guess). I've only shot auto glass once years back, and I didn't have bonded. Everything 5.56 sucked... even M855.
I can't remember where I saw heard that you hold a little low for straight on car windshield shots... but it wasn't some youtuber douchebag or anything. It was a legit source.
I first read it on snipershide forum about a decade ago., but I thought was hold high. And it was one of their legit posters. It might have even been Frank, but whomever it was had shot A LOT of windshield glass.
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Molon, I think, found Gold Dot to be between Fusion and MSR in velocity. (Edit, here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Federal-62-Grain-Fusion-vs-Federal-62-Grain-Fusion-MSR-vs-Speer-LE-62-Grain-Gold-Dot/16-687846/ ) Or perhaps my memory fails me. My 16” data shows MSR to match your Gold Dot data, but the barrel I used was quite slow; matched by a 12.3” with other cartridges. I can’t find any chrono data I’ve collected from SBR’s, though I thought I did.
I wonder if Gold Dot has changed to mimic the MSR. That might make sense.
Edit: this dude on TOS (Eagle_19er) found a big difference in 64gr Gold Dot and MSR in 4 barrel lengths. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediafiles/23126/SD-Ammo-SxS-233178.JPG Maybe my info is simply outdated and precedes the 62gr Gold Dot load.
I remember the 64 GD being faster and sloppier, can't quantify, but the 62 has been quite an improvement.
There's a thread here somewhere in which we kicked the GD/Fusion/MSR thing around. I couldn't find it in a quick look, someone else may be able to.
We also did the same thing with some of the Federal TRU and classic loads, too.
There's a thread here somewhere in which we kicked the GD/Fusion/MSR thing around. I couldn't find it in a quick look, someone else may be able to.
.
That was Molon’s thread. He posted the same OP on TOS, which is what I linked, because the pictures that contained the velocity tables were still present there, but the ones here have been lost to time. Here’s the M4C one: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?172571-Federal-62-Grain-Fusion-vs-Federal-62-Grain-Fusion-MSR-vs-Speer-LE-62-Grain-Gold-Dot
I remember the 64 GD being faster and sloppier, can't quantify, but the 62 has been quite an improvement.
There's a thread here somewhere in which we kicked the GD/Fusion/MSR thing around. I couldn't find it in a quick look, someone else may be able to.
We also did the same thing with some of the Federal TRU and classic loads, too.
What cartridges, other than M193 55g FMJ, have you seen successfully stop a violent attacker in short order? 62g JSP? 64g JSP? Others?
I first read it on snipershide forum about a decade ago., but I thought was hold high. And it was one of their legit posters. It might have even been Frank, but whomever it was had shot A LOT of windshield glass.
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Yes you aim high because the angle of the glass will turn the bullet down.
That said auto glass does some funky stuff and it’s really unpredictable. The key to shooting auto glass it dumping a ton of rounds in the same place. You eventually shoot a hole to shoot through.
Edit: an important caveat to shooting auto glass and holds. You hold high shooting into the car. For the same reason, you hold low shooting out, as the glass will now turn the bullet up.
Yes you aim high because the angle of the glass will turn the bullet down.
That said auto glass does some funky stuff and it’s really unpredictable. The key to shooting auto glass it dumping a ton of rounds in the same place. You eventually shoot a hole to shoot through.
Edit: an important caveat to shooting auto glass and holds. You hold high shooting into the car. For the same reason, you hold low shooting out, as the glass will now turn the bullet up.
Yeah, that's what I thought with regards to auto glass. Now for shooting uphill/downhill......rule of thumb is to aim low for either situation, correct?
Eurodriver
05-26-22, 19:21
Yeah, that's what I thought with regards to auto glass. Now for shooting uphill/downhill......rule of thumb is to aim low for either situation, correct?
Sort of...you aim low when the dope for your line of sight distance is greater than the dope for your horizontal distance. This is always going to be the case on an angled shot, but there is a point to be made that it has nothing to do with gravity/elevation changes.
Let's assume you are 300y above your target, and your range finder (line of sight) says you are 1000 yards away. My dope for 1000 yards is 7.0 mils, but I'm not really shooting 1000 yards.
The actual horizontal distance is (C^2 = A^2 + B^2) or, 1,000,000 = 90,000 + B^2.
910,000 = B^2
953 yards = B is my true horizontal distance. If I were to fire 7.0 mils my round would fly way over the target, so I'd have to aim low (but really, I prefer to think of it as holding/dialing the correct amount of elevation for the true distance)
Or you can just buy a LRF that gives you the Horizontal distance via a calculator and not do any math :)
Sort of...you aim low when the dope for your line of sight distance is greater than the dope for your horizontal distance. This is always going to be the case on an angled shot, but there is a point to be made that it has nothing to do with gravity/elevation changes.
Let's assume you are 300y above your target, and your range finder (line of sight) says you are 1000 yards away. My dope for 1000 yards is 7.0 mils, but I'm not really shooting 1000 yards.
The actual horizontal distance is (C^2 = A^2 + B^2) or, 1,000,000 = 90,000 + B^2.
910,000 = B^2
953 yards = B is my true horizontal distance. If I were to fire 7.0 mils my round would fly way over the target, so I'd have to aim low (but really, I prefer to think of it as holding/dialing the correct amount of elevation for the true distance)
Or you can just buy a LRF that gives you the Horizontal distance via a calculator and not do any math :)
See... I spent 10 years on SWAT. I did EVERY job on the Team... except friggin sniper. Know why? Cause when the sniper nerds start talking about this shit.. .my eyes glaze over. Just send me in point, dude. lol
See... I spent 10 years on SWAT. I did EVERY job on the Team... except friggin sniper. Know why? Cause when the sniper nerds start talking about this shit.. .my eyes glaze over. Just send me in point, dude. lol
Holy f#*k! We shot next to Mesa, AZ (I think) SWAT/snipers on the High Power range here a few years back. It was just like you say. And they were there before we got there, and still going at it when we left.
Holy f#*k! We shot next to Mesa, AZ (I think) SWAT/snipers on the High Power range here a few years back. It was just like you say. And they were there before we got there, and still going at it when we left.
Yep. Our in house Sniper school is 110 hours in 9 days, roughly.
I could overhear the conversation. And even getting to shoot company ammo all day, I'd have to pass on that chance too.
I could overhear the conversation. And even getting to shoot company ammo all day, I'd have to pass on that chance too.
agreed. *raises hand* I'll just go on point!
Sort of...you aim low when the dope for your line of sight distance is greater than the dope for your horizontal distance. This is always going to be the case on an angled shot, but there is a point to be made that it has nothing to do with gravity/elevation changes.
Let's assume you are 300y above your target, and your range finder (line of sight) says you are 1000 yards away. My dope for 1000 yards is 7.0 mils, but I'm not really shooting 1000 yards.
The actual horizontal distance is (C^2 = A^2 + B^2) or, 1,000,000 = 90,000 + B^2.
910,000 = B^2
953 yards = B is my true horizontal distance. If I were to fire 7.0 mils my round would fly way over the target, so I'd have to aim low (but really, I prefer to think of it as holding/dialing the correct amount of elevation for the true distance)
Or you can just buy a LRF that gives you the Horizontal distance via a calculator and not do any math :)
It’s amazing what lrf and applied ballistics app will do for you.
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agreed. *raises hand* I'll just go on point!
Point man is never wrong!
The moon is up and the sky if full of stars. We sit in a room, having been briefed on that night's hit. We know the town, we know the street, we have done many things before this night on the location.
Cups of turkish coffee are finished, a few cups have cigarette butts doing the back stroke through the coffee grounds.
The door opens and in walks our commander, he tells us to gather round, as we form up around him he pulls something from his pocket. A box of 5.56 ammo we had never seen before. He then tells us it is a super duper wiz bang that will make terrorist vaporize and you don't need a suppressor since this stuff is so cool it makes no sound.
Nope that never happened, we took the ammo IMI produced and shot the terrorist into the ground, and then put a round in his head to verify it.
Some day I wonder if we have too many choices in the USA?
Diamondback
05-27-22, 17:49
I'd humbly venture that the problem is Barnum's Law... too many suckers just waiting for some snake-oil salesman to fleece them with the right silver-tongued buzzwords, creating a lucrative market akin to Old West patent medicines.
Weak. Nobody here is making any arguments about magical bullet performance.
Barrier blind is simply more consistent than ball.
Penetration depth. Expansion.
Barrier performance.
It’s simply a variable you can control in your favor.
Weak. Nobody here is making any arguments about magical bullet performance.
Barrier blind is simply more consistent than ball.
Penetration depth. Expansion.
Barrier performance.
It’s simply a variable you can control in your favor.
Only thing against it is price, but there is no doubt they have wins in the advantage column.
ExplorinInTheWoods
05-29-22, 04:42
If you’re in an apartment 55gr ballistic tip actually makes sense because of the possibility of over penetration and most apartments are cheaply made so it would break up easier. Now they don’t have good penetration but based on fragmentation they would cause a lot of trauma. 75/77gr bthp is a good option so is any bonded 62/64 stuff. Honestly if you have a chance make some of your own gel or make a meat target and test a few rounds.
Hammer_Man
05-29-22, 11:18
For the cost per round of bonded stuff, I think I’ll stick to green tip, or XM193. If I’m feeling sassy I’ll use 68 gr. OTM, as I’ve been able to grab some for a decent price lately. I still can’t find any bonded 223/556 anywhere. Sportsman’s had some Sig branded 77 gr OTM on the shelf for $29.00 a box, but I’m not paying that much for 20 rounds.
davidjinks
05-29-22, 12:36
For the cost per round of bonded stuff, I think I’ll stick to green tip, or XM193. If I’m feeling sassy I’ll use 68 gr. OTM, as I’ve been able to grab some for a decent price lately. I still can’t find any bonded 223/556 anywhere. Sportsman’s had some Sig branded 77 gr OTM on the shelf for $29.00 a box, but I’m not paying that much for 20 rounds.
Very much agreed. I have 2 mags loaded with bonded. The rest is M193. I do have 2 cans of MK262 but that’s for the MK12.
For the cost per round of bonded stuff, I think I’ll stick to green tip, or XM193. If I’m feeling sassy I’ll use 68 gr. OTM, as I’ve been able to grab some for a decent price lately. I still can’t find any bonded 223/556 anywhere. Sportsman’s had some Sig branded 77 gr OTM on the shelf for $29.00 a box, but I’m not paying that much for 20 rounds.
You don't need 1000 rounds of bonded...It's not a "mag dumps into the dirt on Sunday" situation with this stuff. You buy enough to do a brief functional verification and then load a couple mags. Done. You're in for like $100 and you have an effective tool in the box should you need to fire at an attacker through auto glass, auto body, or an interior wall.
You don't need 1000 rounds of bonded...It's not a "mag dumps into the dirt on Sunday" situation with this stuff. You buy enough to do a brief functional verification and then load a couple mags. Done. You're in for like $100 and you have an effective tool in the box should you need to fire at an attacker through auto glass, auto body, or an interior wall.
I used to be on cal guns forums, fud central into it came to the legality side of ca gun laws, I remember some turd espousing how you should only shoot carry ammo. That and that you couldn’t trust a handgun to carry until you ran 500-1000 rds of your carry ammo through it without a hiccup and that you are instantly guilty of murder in the first if you used handloads in a sd situation. That site was poisonous to free thinking Americans.
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I dont get to wrapped around the axle with rifle ammo. I have a few mags of duty ammo (Federal TRU 55 grain Gameking) in my home defense gun and in my chest rig. If I go through 120 rounds of of that in a fight and Im still alive, then its back to M193. Id have no qualms using M193 or M855 for defense, but I think having a few mags of quality defensive ammo is a good increase in performance for not much hassle.
I use the TRU because I get a few mags full every other year for free. I know and trust this round and it shoots very close to the same POA as 55 grain ball. Close enough that I cant tell the difference at 100 yards with a red dot or 1-4 LPVO.
Barrier blind rounds definitely have advantages. My department is switching everything over to Wichester ammunition and Ive heard we will be switching to a Ranger bonded bullet soon. So those will likely replace the Federal in my stockpile after a couple years.
All of my 5.56 weapons have been zeroed for Mk318 (I will use M855 to get on paper and close, then fine tune with Mk318 so I don't shoot all of it up in the process). For "plinking" I use either M855 or maybe M193. For those "plinking" purposes it is close enough for gubment work! For real circumstances it's Mk318.
For the cost per round of bonded stuff, I think I’ll stick to green tip, or XM193. If I’m feeling sassy I’ll use 68 gr. OTM, as I’ve been able to grab some for a decent price lately. I still can’t find any bonded 223/556 anywhere. Sportsman’s had some Sig branded 77 gr OTM on the shelf for $29.00 a box, but I’m not paying that much for 20 rounds.
I think that 68/69 gr OTM is a mediocre choice due to poor penetration. If you go with OTM, go heavy. Its too bad, because thats what I shoot in matches. I’d still choose it over a pistol, though.
Hornady Frontier is dangerously sketchy.
As far as cost, we’re talking a single box of ammo in the gun and another to test/zero. Sure, I have like a K of bonded ammo, but thats not truly necessary.
If I’m feeling sassy I’ll use 68 gr. OTM, as I’ve been able to grab some for a decent price lately.
I think that 68/69 gr OTM is a mediocre choice due to poor penetration. If you go with OTM, go heavy. Its too bad, because thats what I shoot in matches. I’d still choose it over a pistol, though.
68/69s are easily obstructed, high fragmentation, and shallow penetration, ~8-10" typically. They fly very well but there are much better choices.
I still can’t find any bonded 223/556 anywhere. Sportsman’s had some Sig branded 77 gr OTM on the shelf for $29.00 a box, but I’m not paying that much for 20 rounds.
If you can't find the bonded, look for the heavier soft points and copper solids. It's going to cost, but you don't need a lot for a few mags.
All of my 5.56 weapons have been zeroed for Mk318 (I will use M855 to get on paper and close, then fine tune with Mk318 so I don't shoot all of it up in the process). For "plinking" I use either M855 or maybe M193. For those "plinking" purposes it is close enough for gubment work! For real circumstances it's Mk318.
Exactly what I do. Seems to work well enough.
I still can’t find any bonded 223/556 anywhere. Sportsman’s had some Sig branded 77 gr OTM on the shelf for $29.00 a box, but I’m not paying that much for 20 rounds.
75 grain Gold Dot, $21 for 20. https://www.recoilgunworks.com/shop/speer-gold-dot-223-rem-75gr-sp-38487
75 grain Gold Dot, $21 for 20. https://www.recoilgunworks.com/shop/speer-gold-dot-223-rem-75gr-sp-38487
77 grain IMI Razor Core, 18.48$ for 20. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2090124928
75 grain Gold Dot, $21 for 20. https://www.recoilgunworks.com/shop/speer-gold-dot-223-rem-75gr-sp-38487
That's tempting.
So,
Until now,
I've just kept my "serious mags" loaded with duty ammunition, usually 55 grain ballistic tip of some type.
(mostly 55 grain corbon blitz king, with a bit of 55 grain remington ball. tip, and even some honrnady redtip shit that I aint too sure about)
BUT... I'm kinda re-thinking now that my "duty" is refocused (god, family, country, and not that badge).... so i get to choose.... I'm wondering if I shouldn't go heavier on the weight.
Maybe 75 gr BTHP?
All of my rifles are 14.5's and I'm kinda wondering if, being a home defense weapon, heavier might not be better.
Thoughts??
-E
So I think Somalia was the first time we seriously beta tested the SS109 round and a lot of people discovered if you shoot naked Africans with a round designed for Russians in body armor sometimes they died immediately and sometimes you zoomed pin holes through them and they shot back at you then died eventually.
I'm not gonna try and suggest anything definitive like M193 is always superior to SS109 or vice versa, if you continue to shoot bad guys until they are down both are gonna work. I think environment (and obviously barrel twist) is one of the more important considerations, I guess the question is why do you think you might need a heavier round for HD?
All of my 5.56 weapons have been zeroed for Mk318 (I will use M855 to get on paper and close, then fine tune with Mk318 so I don't shoot all of it up in the process). For "plinking" I use either M855 or maybe M193. For those "plinking" purposes it is close enough for gubment work! For real circumstances it's Mk318.
And this is what happens when I don't keep current. Interesting round, stop spending my money.
I keep our 14.5" and 16" carbines loaded with 62 gr. Federal Fusion ammo. Wouldn't hesitate to use regular Federal or Winchester 64 gr. soft points.
NYH1.
Defaultmp3
06-07-22, 17:08
And this is what happens when I don't keep current. Interesting round, stop spending my money.I mean, SOST isn't exactly new. It was what the USMC picked to supplement M855 over a decade ago, saw use in SOCOM even before that (replacing Mk262 in 2007 for most roles, IIRC), and a lot of folks thought that it should have beat M855A1 for general purpose issuing.
I mean, SOST isn't exactly new. It was what the USMC picked to supplement M855 over a decade ago, saw use in SOCOM even before that (replacing Mk262 in 2007 for most roles, IIRC), and a lot of folks thought that it should have beat M855A1 for general purpose issuing.
My last ammo upgrade was finally accepting SS109 late 90s.
SOCOM even before that (replacing Mk262 in 2007 for most roles, IIRC).
Not exactly.
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