View Full Version : Optic Selection for 12.5
The build I am currently working on is a 12.5 suppressed SOLGW carbine length gas system barreled gun. My idea going into this build was building the compact “Jack of all trades master of none” carbine. This gun will have a Silencerco Saker 556K can on it the majority of the time. I wanted a build capable of 400-500 yards but still be handy and light enough to be quick for shooting up close. The thing I keep flip flopping on is I cannot make up my mind on what optic setup. I wanted this gun to be able to engage out to 400-500 AND I wanted to be able to have a dot to shoot up close with as well as passively through NVGS. Originally I was thinking an LPVO (I already have a lot of experience with these so I’m aware of the versatility that they give) with an offset dot on the 45. The LPVO I was looking at was the Trijicon Creedo 1-8 and then throwing an Aimpoint T-2 on the offset 45. The only drawback to this setup that I keep thinking about is that a 12.5 with a K can, an LPVO, and an offset T-2 is gonna start to add up in weight. That’s what made me start thinking of other options such as an ACOG with a dot (I don’t know if I would do an RMR on the top of the ACOG or just throw a dot on the 45), or just an Aimpoint T-2 on a Unity Fast mount with a 3x magnifier behind it. Like I said I have a lot of time behind LPVOs and I’m aware of how much versatility they have but I didn’t want to start over building the gun to be too heavy. That being said I feel like I can handle the weight, but if another setup is just gonna be more efficient I am open to new ideas. Again I wanted a dot on the gun too for both rapid up close shooting as well as passive NVG use. I have also been concerned about how well an ACOG reticle would match up ballistically to a suppressed 12.5 shooting XM193 as it’s main diet. Thoughts and ideas?
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ACOG works great with most loads. Like the experts here pointed out, the reticle is a guideline/estimate for hold. You might have to hold chin level to get a center mass hit at 500 with XM193. Once you know this, you likely won't forget it.
I'm not a fan of LPVOs at all. They just don't do anything very well for the size. The COG has been seeing a lot of range time with us lately.
ACOG works great with most loads. Like the experts here pointed out, the reticle is a guideline/estimate for hold. You might have to hold chin level to get a center mass hit at 500 with XM193. Once you know this, you likely won't forget it.
I'm not a fan of LPVOs at all. They just don't do anything very well for the size. The COG has been seeing a lot of range time with us lately.
So you think an ACOG on a suppressed 12.5 shooting XM193 the holds still might be useable out at distance with just minor correction?
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There's no way I'd run an LPVO and a T-2 on a 12.5", suppressor or not. If you want to run an LPVO, then choose one with a usably bright dot to use as your red dot at close range. If you want a backup solution, then irons at 45 degrees, or an RMR if you like spending money, will work.
There's no law that states that hashmarks on a reticle must match the trajectory at 200, 300, 400......600 yards. If the first hash gives a point of impact at 175, then memorize it. If the 2nd hash down is at 250, then memorize it. If the 3rd hash down...I think you see where I'm going with this.
Shoot the setup at distance, and record the results.....done.
I went through this same argument with myself recently. Here is where I ended up. 11.5 - RDS. 13.7 RDS with magnifier. 16 - LPVO. I think in your case I would go dot with magnifier. The whole reason I did that on my 13.7 was exactly what is causing you angst; it's supposed to be a lightweight carbine. Once you add LPVO, can, back up RDS etc etc you end up with a 12 lb gun. I have zero experience with an ACOG so not saying it is a bad choice, just going off my experience. That being said, I can see the argument with reticle vs dot for ranging and hold over.
This stickied thread has good content for you.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?222367-The-One-Gun-Solution-(GP-Carbine)-Reality
titsonritz
06-10-22, 18:10
One of my favorite "do all" guns wears a Kahles K16i in a Geissele 1.93" mount with a Reptilia ROF 90 and RMR. It is a relatively light setup with a lot of capability.
Do you have StrelokPro and a chrono? One thing I never understood (granted my knowledge base on dope, holds, etc is close to zero) is putting something with minimal stadia on an SBR. The reduced velocity from a shorter barrel would tell me that you need a reticle that’s has lots of drop because the round is going slower. I don’t know which ACOG you’d be looking at but something to consider, same thing goes for a JM-1 Razor.
I like the dot+mag more and more. I’ve only consistently shot out to 200 with mine but on 8” plates or smaller. Another thing I don’t understand is when someone picks an arbitrary distance they want to shoot at but no target size. I assume man size, but there’s a big difference between that and a massive steel rectangle. Man size at 500 with a dot and mag would be pretty difficult IMO. Again something to consider is the reticle, you have to be very practiced to know your holds when the only thing your optic gives you is one dot. I’ve really gotten to liking the EXPS 3-2 reticle for up close and it seems reasonable on paper at distance, though I haven’t stretched it yet. Keep in mind that holosun makes an Aimpoint micro size dot with a ACSS reticle that has elevation holds.
Personally, something like the Razor GIII 1-10 or probably the new PA Platinum Compact 1-8 make a lot of sense to me. Both are lighter than the Credo and have significant reticles that would compensate for the decreased velocity/increased bullet drop. Initial reviews of the PA have its 1x performance rivaling the Gen II Razor 1-6 while being lighter and having a more useful reticle plus 2x higher, but at the cost of brightness. The 1-10 Razor won’t sacrifice on brightness and is in between the weights of the Credo and PA but at the price point of the Credo or higher.
As far as offset, a T2 sounds like overkill. I ran a 507c for a little while to include during some 3-gun where the rifle was getting dumped and it did great. Pretty big weight savings over the T2, and the RMR is even lighter. Again though, offset or top mounted is a bit unorthodox So having a dot with more reticle may help finding it in some circumstances. I’m currently experimenting with the ACSS Vulcan 507 for that.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220610/338a16f9019b19493dfea73def86ecb2.jpg
Obviously not a 12.5 but I love this so far on this gun and would really like to build a 12.5 with the same optic setup.
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What ACOG model do you think the BDC would match up to closest to a 12.5 shooting XM193 with a K can on it? Will that StrelokPro let me play with different models of optics and compare bullet drop with different loads and different muzzle velocities?
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Do you have StrelokPro and a chrono? One thing I never understood (granted my knowledge base on dope, holds, etc is close to zero) is putting something with minimal stadia on an SBR. The reduced velocity from a shorter barrel would tell me that you need a reticle that’s has lots of drop because the round is going slower. I don’t know which ACOG you’d be looking at but something to consider, same thing goes for a JM-1 Razor.
I like the dot+mag more and more. I’ve only consistently shot out to 200 with mine but on 8” plates or smaller. Another thing I don’t understand is when someone picks an arbitrary distance they want to shoot at but no target size. I assume man size, but there’s a big difference between that and a massive steel rectangle. Man size at 500 with a dot and mag would be pretty difficult IMO. Again something to consider is the reticle, you have to be very practiced to know your holds when the only thing your optic gives you is one dot. I’ve really gotten to liking the EXPS 3-2 reticle for up close and it seems reasonable on paper at distance, though I haven’t stretched it yet. Keep in mind that holosun makes an Aimpoint micro size dot with a ACSS reticle that has elevation holds.
Personally, something like the Razor GIII 1-10 or probably the new PA Platinum Compact 1-8 make a lot of sense to me. Both are lighter than the Credo and have significant reticles that would compensate for the decreased velocity/increased bullet drop. Initial reviews of the PA have its 1x performance rivaling the Gen II Razor 1-6 while being lighter and having a more useful reticle plus 2x higher, but at the cost of brightness. The 1-10 Razor won’t sacrifice on brightness and is in between the weights of the Credo and PA but at the price point of the Credo or higher.
As far as offset, a T2 sounds like overkill. I ran a 507c for a little while to include during some 3-gun where the rifle was getting dumped and it did great. Pretty big weight savings over the T2, and the RMR is even lighter. Again though, offset or top mounted is a bit unorthodox So having a dot with more reticle may help finding it in some circumstances. I’m currently experimenting with the ACSS Vulcan 507 for that.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220610/338a16f9019b19493dfea73def86ecb2.jpg
Obviously not a 12.5 but I love this so far on this gun and would really like to build a 12.5 with the same optic setup.
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I’ve heard of this app before but I don’t have it or a chrono yet but I plan on buying one. If I go with an ACOG I want to find a model that will match the BDC with combat accuracy out to AT LEAST 400 yards with a 12.5 shooting XM193 with a K can on the end of it.
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I have NF NX8 1-8 and Vortrx 1-10 in both of my 12.5
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I have NF NX8 1-8 and Vortrx 1-10 in both of my 12.5
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How far out would you say you feel automatic with both of those setups? How well does the BDC on the Razor 1-10 match the 12.5? And are you running an offset dot?
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How far out would you say you feel automatic with both of those setups? How well does the BDC on the Razor 1-10 match the 12.5? And are you running an offset dot?
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I’ve heard of this app before but I don’t have it or a chrono yet but I plan on buying one. If I go with an ACOG I want to find a model that will match the BDC with combat accuracy out to AT LEAST 400 yards with a 12.5 shooting XM193 with a K can on the end of it.
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A BDC made for M855 from a 14.5” is likely to work well if you true it up further out. I’ll play on Strelok a bit with my velocity data and edit this comment later.
A BDC made for M855 from a 14.5” is likely to work well if you true it up further out. I’ll play on Strelok a bit with my velocity data and edit this comment later.
That’s exactly what I was thinking. The exact optic I believe is the TA31RCO which is the BDC for a 14.5 shooting M855 correct?
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68310
Fed XM193/12.3” barrel that is a little on the slow side, due to age. That’s hits all day out to 500, with a little holding at 600, where wind and precision will be screwing with you, anyway.
You definitely want Strelok. Once you figure out how to use it, it definitely helps a lot with figuring out BDC reticles, which are frequently not quite as advertised for bullet weight and velocity. Helps for deciding which one to use.
68310
Fed XM193/12.3” barrel that is a little on the slow side, due to age. That’s hits all day out to 500, with a little holding at 600, where wind and precision will be screwing with you, anyway.
You definitely want Strelok. Once you figure out how to use it, it definitely helps a lot with figuring out BDC reticles, which are frequently not quite as advertised for bullet weight and velocity. Helps for deciding which one to use.
Nice man that is some really good data that helps a lot. What barrel length and ammunition is the TA01NSN built for? It doesn’t mention barrel lengths on Trijicon’s website. Also, does that app allow you to adjust the sight over bore height? For example I am thinking of throwing whatever ACOG I get on one of those KRAM mounts which will rise it up higher. Also, in that simulation you just did, is the gun zeroed at 97 or 100 yards?
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Nice man that is some really good data that helps a lot. What barrel length and ammunition is the TA01NSN built for? It doesn’t mention barrel lengths on Trijicon’s website. Also, does that app allow you to adjust the sight over bore height? For example I am thinking of throwing whatever ACOG I get on one of those KRAM mounts which will rise it up higher. Also, in that simulation you just did, is the gun zeroed at 97 or 100 yards?
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I think it was made for 14.5” and M855. The app does allow you to change height over bore. In fact, that is one way you can make an LPVO BDC follow your ammo better. For example: jacking a LPVO made for a longer barrel and faster ammo to 1.93” on a SBR will frequently make the BDC work out just fine out to practical distances, such as 500. That data is based on a 100yd zero. You’re seeing the 97 on the left because I left near/far zero turned on, which isn’t really relevant for 100yd zeros, but it is for 50/200, 25/300, and MPBR zeros.
I think it was made for 14.5” and M855. The app does allow you to change height over bore. In fact, that is one way you can make an LPVO BDC follow your ammo better. For example: jacking a LPVO made for a longer barrel and faster ammo to 1.93” on a SBR will frequently make the BDC work out just fine out to practical distances, such as 500. That data is based on a 100yd zero. You’re seeing the 97 on the left because I left near/far zero turned on, which isn’t really relevant for 100yd zeros, but it is for 50/200, 25/300, and MPBR zeros.
The model of ACOG I was thinking about getting is the TA31RCO which Trijicon specifically lists is for a 14.5 barrel. I like the green chevron model personally. If it can give me accurate enough sub-tensions on a suppressed 12.5 out to 500 that would be awesome. I’m gonna look into that app. Thanks for your help man.
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The reticle trijicon makes for the 14.5 barrel will be close enough that you can easily make it work for a 12.5 with suppressor. If you're starting to tell yourself that's not precise enough....then LPVO it is. MHO.
The reticle trijicon makes for the 14.5 barrel will be close enough that you can easily make it work for a 12.5 with suppressor. If you're starting to tell yourself that's not precise enough....then LPVO it is. MHO.
I completely understand what you are saying and I’ve been flip flopping between the two options for months now. I like the weight savings, simplicity, and efficiency of the ACOG though.
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68310
Fed XM193/12.3” barrel that is a little on the slow side, due to age. That’s hits all day out to 500, with a little holding at 600, where wind and precision will be screwing with you, anyway.
You definitely want Strelok. Once you figure out how to use it, it definitely helps a lot with figuring out BDC reticles, which are frequently not quite as advertised for bullet weight and velocity. Helps for deciding which one to use.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220621/5bf88fde23c7617f38348e8274fcc2bc.jpg
I bought Strelok Pro and this is what I got with Federal XM193 using chronographed data I found online. I zeroed in inch low at 100 using a TA31RCO (made for a 14.5 shooting 62 grain green tip). The XM193 did very well to the reticle when I zeroed it an inch low at 100. When I zeroed it right at 100 it actually slightly outpaced the reticle by a little more.
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Eurodriver
06-21-22, 12:00
I would not get too hung up on the reticle.
I have used the A4 and M4 TA31s on A4 and M4s with M855 out to 500 yards. I have literally never had one match. In fact, for the A4 in particular, it's usually shooting high by about 2+ FEET at 500 yards.
The only real way to know where the stadia lines end up is to shoot your gun with your ammo in your environment. M193 at sea level out of a cut rifled SS 12.5" is going to fly vastly different that M193 in Denver out of a button rifled nitride 12.5"
ETA: I would put an ACOG on a 12.5".
ExplorinInTheWoods
06-27-22, 21:59
I put a 1-8 credo on a 12.5, I have not put the offset dot on it yet. I’ve only shot it to 300. It was boringly accurate. I run a 1.7 badger because I think 1.93 should only be on dots. Higher scope mounts are not great in my opinion because of the trend in ffp optics, they have worse eyebox es and now you’re taking away a consistent cheekweld by going higher. If you want the high dot get a normal scope mount and add a 12 o clock dot. Streklok is awesome and very useful, keep in mind the height over bore is mis labeled as optic height so it defaults to 1.5 but you end up adding like .95-.97 for actual bore to rail height.
danieljmaunder
06-27-22, 22:10
Height from center boreline to top of pic rail in the measurements I've done on 5.56 guns is 1.2. Add in scope height say 1.5 standard height mount and you get 2.7 fot your actual height over bore. I typically run 1.5 mounts on a .5 riser, comes out to about 3.2. That works well for me being 6'5 and a big ass neck. Also completely clears the IR laser. Fore most people, running a 1.7 height on a 12.5 with an lpvo will be fine. For the shorter guns I really prefer RDS with magnifier but thats just me
Do you have StrelokPro and a chrono? One thing I never understood (granted my knowledge base on dope, holds, etc is close to zero) is putting something with minimal stadia on an SBR. The reduced velocity from a shorter barrel would tell me that you need a reticle that’s has lots of drop because the round is going slower. I don’t know which ACOG you’d be looking at but something to consider, same thing goes for a JM-1 Razor.
I like the dot+mag more and more. I’ve only consistently shot out to 200 with mine but on 8” plates or smaller. Another thing I don’t understand is when someone picks an arbitrary distance they want to shoot at but no target size. I assume man size, but there’s a big difference between that and a massive steel rectangle. Man size at 500 with a dot and mag would be pretty difficult IMO. Again something to consider is the reticle, you have to be very practiced to know your holds when the only thing your optic gives you is one dot. I’ve really gotten to liking the EXPS 3-2 reticle for up close and it seems reasonable on paper at distance, though I haven’t stretched it yet. Keep in mind that holosun makes an Aimpoint micro size dot with a ACSS reticle that has elevation holds.
Personally, something like the Razor GIII 1-10 or probably the new PA Platinum Compact 1-8 make a lot of sense to me. Both are lighter than the Credo and have significant reticles that would compensate for the decreased velocity/increased bullet drop. Initial reviews of the PA have its 1x performance rivaling the Gen II Razor 1-6 while being lighter and having a more useful reticle plus 2x higher, but at the cost of brightness. The 1-10 Razor won’t sacrifice on brightness and is in between the weights of the Credo and PA but at the price point of the Credo or higher.
As far as offset, a T2 sounds like overkill. I ran a 507c for a little while to include during some 3-gun where the rifle was getting dumped and it did great. Pretty big weight savings over the T2, and the RMR is even lighter. Again though, offset or top mounted is a bit unorthodox So having a dot with more reticle may help finding it in some circumstances. I’m currently experimenting with the ACSS Vulcan 507 for that.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220610/338a16f9019b19493dfea73def86ecb2.jpg
Obviously not a 12.5 but I love this so far on this gun and would really like to build a 12.5 with the same optic setup.
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Nice gun Wake, that is the optimal solution but if he didn't want to goto that extreme, RDS with 3X would work just fine. An ACOG with RDS up top or 45 would be nice. As always, a lot of good options and nothing perfect. Good luck with your 12.5
PB
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