View Full Version : The annoying Wylde Chamber explained:
Just read an interesting post on AccurateShooter.com's forums about the Wylde Chamber, and it sounds credible.
i see more bs on the wylde chamber on this forum.
it is a MATCH reamer to allow ACCURACY with 69.75 grain bullets for 200/300 yards in cmp/dcm ar15/m16 clones and STILL ALLOW AN 80GR SMK BE SINGLE LOADED. it is not the best all round chamber..it is designed for one thing and one thing only 600 yard 80gr single load with moa or less accuracy for 200.300 yd stages at cmp.dcm matches.
it is neither a 334 nor a 5.56..it is a wylde...call bill and ask him.
titsonritz
06-15-22, 14:40
So what is 334, the Spinal Tap version of 223? :smile:
Just a typo obviously, but I didn't want to alter the actual post if I was quoting the guy.
Now I have to shoot 80s in my annoying ass Wylde Chamber to see what happens.
it is a MATCH reamer to allow ACCURACY with 69, 75 grain bullets for 200/300 yards in cmp/dcm ar15/m16 clones and STILL ALLOW AN 80GR SMK BE SINGLE LOADED. it is not the best all round chamber..it is designed for one thing and one thing only 600 yard 80gr single load with moa or less accuracy for 200.300 yd stages at cmp.dcm matches.
it is neither a 223 nor a 5.56..it is a wylde...call bill and ask him.Correct.
Bill Wylde put his chamber and leade dimensions between .223 Match and 5.56mm. He was able to squeeze excellent precision from 62-grain Canadian 5.56mm military ammunition.
Frank White of Compass Lake has a rapid-fire reamer well-recognized for maximum precision with 69s and 77s. For 80-grain Sierras the seating depth is around 2.450 with a new barrel.
The USAMU uses Colt's .mil 5.56mm reamer to long-load the 80-grain Sierra Match King at 2.500 inches -- this allows for the long-taper bullet to get a running start at the rifling leade without a chamber pressure spike.
The Wylde chamber is tighter than the 5.56 chamber with shorter leade angle. Try seating an 80 SMK to 2.455 when new.
This is cool info. The Wylde chamber feature is thrown around all the time, but I never knew the true idea behind it. We have a box of 80 that stays out on the bench in the desert.
So what is 334, the Spinal Tap version of 223? :smile:
Ok, that made me laugh.
Interesting. I knew it was in-between the .223 and 5.56 chamber dimensions, and that it is supposed to be more accurate, but I did not know it was designed for longer 80 gr projectiles.
Just a typo obviously, but I didn't want to alter the actual post if I was quoting the guy.
Now I have to shoot 80s in my annoying ass Wylde Chamber to see what happens.
I see 1/2 MOA groups at 300 yards with regularity.
I’m not understanding why it is annoying?
Seems well thought out to me as a better middle ground between 223 and 556 NATO.
I have several barrels and have no issues with any of them.
I see 1/2 MOA groups at 300 yards with regularity.
I've never got my White Oak to get sub moa. But in fairness it's an old complete upper built by those baffoons at ADCO. Their horrific pinning probably destroyed the barrel's accuracy.
I’m not understanding why it is annoying?
Seems well thought out to me as a better middle ground between 223 and 556 NATO.
I have several barrels and have no issues with any of them.
Many wylde chamber barrels (including mine) don't play well with 5.56 pressure ammo. Popped primers, bulges, and swipes much more common.
Many wylde chamber barrels (including mine) don't play well with 5.56 pressure ammo. Popped primers, bulges, and swipes much more common.
Got it, thanks. My reloads shoot just fine. I may try some of the crap XM193 I have stored to see how they shoot in my Wylde barrels.
Got it, thanks. My reloads shoot just fine. I may try some of the crap XM193 I have stored to see how they shoot in my Wylde barrels.
Mine shoots my loads good too. The infamous combo was that hot ass Win Q3131 in wylde chambers. XM is a slightly less vicious in my experience.
I've never got my White Oak to get sub moa. But in fairness it's an old complete upper built by those baffoons at ADCO. Their horrific pinning probably destroyed the barrel's accuracy.
Many wylde chamber barrels (including mine) don't play well with 5.56 pressure ammo. Popped primers, bulges, and swipes much more common.
If a student shoots M193 ammunition in a carbine, with a .223 Wylde chamber and carbine length gas system, it is not unusual to see popped primers. A few turns with a standard 5.56mm chamber reamer, designed to lengthen the free bore, will resolve the pressure issue, but accuracy drops off with 68g and 80g loads at 300 yards.
Winchester Q3131A made in Israel is noticeably hotter than Q3131 made in CONUS.
If a student shoots M193 ammunition in a carbine, with a .223 Wylde chamber and carbine length gas system, it is not unusual to see popped primers. A few turns with a standard 5.56mm chamber reamer, designed to lengthen the free bore, will resolve the issue, but accuracy drops off with 68g and 80g loads at 300 yards.
Winchester Q3131A made in Israel is noticeably hotter than Q3131 made in CONUS.
Maybe it was the "A" ammo. The 3131 at time was pretty sloppy looking ammo.. mixed headstamps, etc and was, sometimes, pretty hot stuff. Batches change over time, but I always favored the 3131A stuff years back.
If a student shoots M193 ammunition in a carbine, with a .223 Wylde chamber and carbine length gas system, it is not unusual to see popped primers. A few turns with a standard 5.56mm chamber reamer, designed to lengthen the free bore, will resolve the issue, but accuracy drops off with 68g and 80g loads at 300 yards.
Can you elaborate on what you’re calling M193?
Real US .mil M193? South African? IMI?
If a student shoots M193 ammunition in a carbine, with a .223 Wylde chamber and carbine length gas system, it is not unusual to see popped primers. A few turns with a standard 5.56mm chamber reamer, designed to lengthen the free bore, will resolve the pressure issue, but accuracy drops off with 68g and 80g loads at 300 yards.
Accuracy will drop off with everything after getting honked out to a 5.56 chamber.
There will never come a day when some goofball at a range pulls out a reamer and thinks he is going to work on one of MY chambers to 'help me out'.
The easy solution to over pressure? Don't load the ammo so hot.
Maybe it was the "A" ammo. The 3131 at time was pretty sloppy looking ammo.. mixed headstamps, etc and was, sometimes, pretty hot stuff. Batches change over time, but I always favored the 3131A stuff years back.
I've never seen factory Winchester Q3131 or Q3131A with mixed headstamps.
Can you elaborate on what you’re calling M193?
Real US .mil M193? South African? IMI?
I am referring to Federal M193 55g FMJ. It chronographs at 3,180 fps out of one of my RRA carbines with 16" barrel and Wylde chamber. The same ammunition chronographs at 3,056 fps out of an Armalite carbine with 16" barrel with 5.56mm chamber. Federal M193 chronographed at 2,964 fps out of my Colt 6920 carbine.
I did not chronograph the South African M193 I shot. The South African M193 was noticeably less accurate at 300 yards than the Federal M193 and Winchester Q3131 ammunition.
The South African M193 was noticeably less accurate at 300 yards than the Federal M193 and Winchester Q3131 ammunition.
Comparing minute-of-milkjug ammo to minute-of-milkjug ammo gets a guy what?
A comparison between different lots of ammo that was never designed nor intended to be 'match grade' ammo.
I am referring to Federal M193 55g FMJ. It chronographs at 3,180 fps out of one of my RRA carbines with 16" barrel and Wylde chamber. The same ammunition chronographs at 3,056 fps out of an Armalite carbine with 16" barrel with 5.56mm chamber. Federal M193 chronographed at 2,964 fps out of my Colt 6920 carbine.
I did not chronograph the South African M193 I shot. The South African M193 was noticeably less accurate at 300 yards than the Federal M193 and Winchester Q3131 ammunition.
Thanks. Federal XM193 usually does reasonably OK around here in Wylde or 5.56 chambers. I like the brass. Most of the other “M193” is awful. Just awful. I’d highly recommend a chamber reaming, and even then…. awful.
I doubt I’ve ever had xx193xx of any variety that shot better than 3-4 MOA.
I still have a case of it in storage because shooting it is a frustrating experience.
I doubt I’ve ever had xx193xx of any variety that shot better than 3-4 MOA.
I still have a case of it in storage because shooting it is a frustrating experience.
Any time I get any of it, I tear it down and make Mexican Match out of it. The ammo is irrational wear and tear on your rifle.
Any time I get any of it, I tear it down and make Mexican Match out of it. The ammo is irrational wear and tear on your rifle.
That’s a good idea, I do like LC brass. (Which is what the XM193 I have is loaded in.)
I’m swimming in 556 brass right now so that would be a lot of work.
No, it isn’t Lapua, but it seems to last longer than the average WWB brass I’ve tried reloading.
I have a dedicated collect bullet pulling press. It's a lot of work, but worth it. I set the press up when Iraqgunz gave me this Effed up batch of Israeli 5.56 ammo. I mean the worst ammo I've ever seen... a mixture of all kinds of stuff you would NEVER shoot in your gun. I scrapped it all and salvaged what I could over several weeks.
I doubt I’ve ever had xx193xx of any variety that shot better than 3-4 MOA.
I still have a case of it in storage because shooting it is a frustrating experience.
The Federal M193 I picked up roughly 12 years ago shoots 2-1/2 MOA at 300 yards out of two of my RRA carbines. I can consistently shoot sub 7" groups. Malaysian M193 I picked up around the same time frame will shoot about the same.
I no longer have any South African M193 on hand. My rifle/carbine logs show, at best, it shot 12"-13" groups at 300 yards with my rifles and carbines.
constructor
06-17-22, 21:33
Correct.
Bill Wylde put his chamber and leade dimensions between .223 Match and 5.56mm. He was able to squeeze excellent precision from 62-grain Canadian 5.56mm military ammunition.
Frank White of Compass Lake has a rapid-fire reamer well-recognized for maximum precision with 69s and 77s. For 80-grain Sierras the seating depth is around 2.450 with a new barrel.
The USAMU uses Colt's .mil 5.56mm reamer to long-load the 80-grain Sierra Match King at 2.500 inches -- this allows for the long-taper bullet to get a running start at the rifling leade without a chamber pressure spike.
The Wylde chamber is tighter than the 5.56 chamber with shorter leade angle. Try seating an 80 SMK to 2.455 when new.
The Wylde has a longer freebore than a 5.56 but the diameter is smaller to align the bullets on the bore better.
68322
I've shot every kind of 5.56 ammo available out of Wylde chambered barrels with no issues. I've shot the same ammo out of the 5.56 CLE chamber with no issues and none of it is as hot as my own 62gr gold dot load, 26.0gr CFE lake city brass, Russian primers and Gold dot set to 2.248" I run a .073" port on a midgas 16" 5.56 CLE chamber barrel with a red spring and H2 buffer and it locks back, the real 5.56 M193 or 855 ammo doesn't even lock back.
constructor
06-17-22, 21:48
I've never got my White Oak to get sub moa. But in fairness it's an old complete upper built by those baffoons at ADCO. Their horrific pinning probably destroyed the barrel's accuracy.
Many wylde chamber barrels (including mine) don't play well with 5.56 pressure ammo. Popped primers, bulges, and swipes much more common.
Have you checked your headspace and gas port size, something doesn't sound right.
The Wylde has a longer freebore than a 5.56 but the diameter is smaller to align the bullets on the bore better.
68322
I've shot every kind of 5.56 ammo available out of Wylde chambered barrels with no issues. I've shot the same ammo out of the 5.56 CLE chamber with no issues and none of it is as hot as my own 62gr gold dot load, 26.0gr CFE lake city brass, Russian primers and Gold dot set to 2.248" I run a .073" port on a midgas 16" 5.56 CLE chamber barrel with a red spring and H2 buffer and it locks back, the real 5.56 M193 or 855 ammo doesn't even lock back.
The chart was helpful. Do you have any idea what chamber reamer dimensions Colt used back in the 1990's?
The Wylde has a longer freebore than a 5.56 but the diameter is smaller to align the bullets on the bore better.
68322
I've shot every kind of 5.56 ammo available out of Wylde chambered barrels with no issues. I've shot the same ammo out of the 5.56 CLE chamber with no issues and none of it is as hot as my own 62gr gold dot load, 26.0gr CFE lake city brass, Russian primers and Gold dot set to 2.248" I run a .073" port on a midgas 16" 5.56 CLE chamber barrel with a red spring and H2 buffer and it locks back, the real 5.56 M193 or 855 ammo doesn't even lock back.
I’m sure you already know a good bit about this, but CFE223 produces a lot of gas drive at safe chamber pressures. 26gr with a 62gr bullet probably has another grain and a half to go till max. Hornady lists 27.7gr (double-check that before loading, work up, etc.) with their 62s. I’m pretty happy with 26gr and 62gr FMJs for 0-300m, myself, and thats one of my high-volume loads for the progressive. Runs in anything, shoots straight, doesn’t beat up the gun or brass.
Most any gun will run on (but provide poor precision) only 24gr, which is right about starting, but like I said its a gassy powder. I tested that in a lightly gassed extended midlength 16” a couple years ago.
On the chrono, more recently:
16” Geissele/Sandman K
M855 (real, not XM or other commercial)
Av 2937
Es 85
Sd 26.6
26.0gr CFE223/Hornady 62FMJ
Av 2735
Es 49
Sd 15.4
Same day; same temp. Anyway, I wouldn’t consider 26gr CFE223 to be hotter than .mil ammo just because it locks back, in a discussion about chambers. Of course, powder lots can vary a bit, though they’ve been pretty consistent for me.
constructor
06-18-22, 08:11
The chart was helpful. Do you have any idea what chamber reamer dimensions Colt used back in the 1990's?
I don't but they should have been standard 5.56 chambers, I had one that shot well for a chrome lined barrel. 69gr FGMM ammo was good for 3/4" at 100yds.
constructor
06-18-22, 09:37
I’m sure you already know a good bit about this, but CFE223 produces a lot of gas drive at safe chamber pressures. 26gr with a 62gr bullet probably has another grain and a half to go till max. Hornady lists 27.7gr (double-check that before loading, work up, etc.) with their 62s. I’m pretty happy with 26gr and 62gr FMJs for 0-300m, myself, and thats one of my high-volume loads for the progressive. Runs in anything, shoots straight, doesn’t beat up the gun or brass.
Most any gun will run on (but provide poor precision) only 24gr, which is right about starting, but like I said its a gassy powder. I tested that in a lightly gassed extended midlength 16” a couple years ago.
On the chrono, more recently:
16” Geissele/Sandman K
M855 (real, not XM or other commercial)
Av 2937
Es 85
Sd 26.6
26.0gr CFE223/Hornady 62FMJ
Av 2735
Es 49
Sd 15.4
Same day; same temp. Anyway, I wouldn’t consider 26gr CFE223 to be hotter than .mil ammo just because it locks back, in a discussion about chambers. Of course, powder lots can vary a bit, though they’ve been pretty consistent for me.
yes I know it is a slower burning powder which makes for higher pressure further down the bore. That load is right at 100 fps faster than the mil spec 5.56 ammo, my Pressure Trace confirms a little over 60k Peak while showing the M855 and M193 around 56500k. The M855 spec says 58k and 3060fps out of a 20" barrel so it should hit around 2900 out of a 16" but it does not, not even at 90 degrees like it was this week. All of it is old stuff I've had since we could get it for $149/can IMI, PPU and LC. Anyway the point I was making is the Wylde with a freebore of .062 and even the CLE chamber with a .025 freebore do not pop primers or show signs of pressure in my barrels with M193 or M855 ammo so if I had one that was popping primers I would start looking at headspace and the port size.
ETA- these results from a 16" 3R 7.7 twist barrel with the 5.56 CLE chamber.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya2JqLPyx4I
https://www.pewpewtactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/223-vs-5.56-vs-223-wylde.jpg
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/media/w32jvfmn/223-wylde-ar-15-chamber-3.jpg
"As with most things genius, his design is simple, yet extremely effective. Wylde took the leade angle of the 5.56 NATO design and mated it to the tighter chamber body dimension and leade length of the .223 Rem. design. Wylde’s chamber gives enough room in the throat so 5.56 NATO cartridges won’t build dangerous pressure, but keeps the improved concentricity—and resulting accuracy—of the .223 Rem. The .223 Wylde chamber allows the owner to shoot both types of (identically dimensioned) ammunition without a worry in the world."
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/content/223-wylde-the-ideal-ar-15-chamber/
As an aside, SAAMI chamber pressure is somewhere between 55,000 and 58,000 psi (I think) while 5.56 is around 62,000.
Military ammo is tested using NATO EPVAT standards -- testing temperature ranges are below freezing to what a soldier might encounter if leaving his weapon and ammo on top a tracked vehicle in the desert (around ~125 degrees Fahrenheit).
Ammo has to work properly at both ends of the mandated temperature range without dropping primers or damaging-destroying the weapon.
constructor
06-18-22, 10:33
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya2JqLPyx4I
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/media/w32jvfmn/223-wylde-ar-15-chamber-3.jpg
"As with most things genius, his design is simple, yet extremely effective. Wylde took the leade angle of the 5.56 NATO design and mated it to the tighter chamber body dimension and leade length of the .223 Rem. design. Wylde’s chamber gives enough room in the throat so 5.56 NATO cartridges won’t build dangerous pressure, but keeps the improved concentricity—and resulting accuracy—of the .223 Rem. The .223 Wylde chamber allows the owner to shoot both types of (identically dimensioned) ammunition without a worry in the world."
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/content/223-wylde-the-ideal-ar-15-chamber/
As an aside, SAAMI chamber pressure is somewhere between 55,000 and 58,000 psi (I think) while 5.56 is around 62,000.
Military ammo is tested using NATO EPVAT standards -- testing temperature ranges are below freezing to what a soldier might encounter if leaving his weapon and ammo on top a tracked vehicle in the desert (around ~125 degrees Fahrenheit).
Ammo has to work properly at both ends of the mandated temperature range without dropping primers or damaging-destroying the weapon.
The guy on the Brownells video use the term "throat" at 1:36, some consider the throat to be a term of combined areas of freebore and leade others think it is only the leade. Where the dimension is confusing is the total length from the base and that is what he is saying by saying the Wylde is between the 223 and 5.56 and it's only because the 5.56 freebore is larger diameter.
The freebore of the WYLDE is longer than the 5.56. The .223 has a freebore length of .025, the Nato .056 and the Wylde .0619". The 5.56 freebore is larger diameter and because it starts at a larger diameter it takes that 1.5 degree angle longer to get back to the .218 top of land to top of land. For every .001" larger in diameter the freebore is the length to the lands increases .017". The diameter of the freebore on the Wylde is smaller like the .223 to align the bullet on the bore better but the body/case area is actually larger in diameter than the 5.56 at the base and shoulder.
Either way the point is The Wylde chamber(proper size and not undersized from a worn reamer) should not pop primers with 5.56 ammo and if it does something else is wrong and I would think over-gassed or headspace.
ETA reamer dimensions can vary a little depending on what company grinds the reamers, JGS and PTG are the only reamer grinders in the country making carbide reamers which are used in large scale high production barrel making.
I don't but they should have been standard 5.56 chambers, I had one that shot well for a chrome lined barrel. 69gr FGMM ammo was good for 3/4" at 100yds.
You are seeing better results than I am. I own a Colt Sporter Match HBAR that shoots slightly over 2 MOA at 300 yards, and no better, with good loads. I have rifle log data that reflects two Colt Sporter Match HBAR rifles I owned in the mid 1990's would shoot no better. I thought maybe it was the way the chambers were reamed.
If a student shoots M193 ammunition in a carbine, with a .223 Wylde chamber and carbine length gas system, it is not unusual to see popped primers. A few turns with a standard 5.56mm chamber reamer, designed to lengthen the free bore, will resolve the pressure issue, but accuracy drops off with 68g and 80g loads at 300 yards.
Winchester Q3131A made in Israel is noticeably hotter than Q3131 made in CONUS.
What kind of course is going on where students are shooting 80gr 5.56 at 300 yards?
What kind of course is going on where students are shooting 80gr 5.56 at 300 yards?
None. If the rifle or carbine was used for shooting at longer distances with 80g ammunition, accuracy will drop off after the Wylde chamber is reamed with a standard 5.56mm reamer.
The guy on the Brownells video use the term "throat" at 1:36, some consider the throat to be a term of combined areas of freebore and leade others think it is only the leade. Where the dimension is confusing is the total length from the base and that is what he is saying by saying the Wylde is between the 223 and 5.56 and it's only because the 5.56 freebore is larger diameter.
The freebore of the WYLDE is longer than the 5.56. The .223 has a freebore length of .025, the Nato .056 and the Wylde .0619". The 5.56 freebore is larger diameter and because it starts at a larger diameter it takes that 1.5 degree angle longer to get back to the .218 top of land to top of land. For every .001" larger in diameter the freebore is the length to the lands increases .017". The diameter of the freebore on the Wylde is smaller like the .223 to align the bullet on the bore better but the body/case area is actually larger in diameter than the 5.56 at the base and shoulder.
Either way the point is The Wylde chamber(proper size and not undersized from a worn reamer) should not pop primers with 5.56 ammo and if it does something else is wrong and I would think over-gassed or headspace.
ETA reamer dimensions can vary a little depending on what company grinds the reamers, JGS and PTG are the only reamer grinders in the country making carbide reamers which are used in large scale high production barrel making.
Exactly
On the Wylde chamber barrel that's blowing primers..Is it by chance chrome lined? Chrome buildup in the chamber at the steps from neck to freebore and in the leade? The eddie current created during plating at those points. Lightly turning a wylde reamer and look for shavings might explain things. Combine that possibly with a headspace nearer to max with much factory ammo that's actually at the min or even below and... pop goes the weasel.
I loath CL barrels unless it's done with high precision and post process work ie lchamber clean up crown cleanup and full lapping i.e. old gen Sako trg I have. I will take a properly nitride barrel everytime.
On the Wylde chamber barrel that's blowing primers..Is it by chance chrome lined?
Mine is a stainless White Oak. Not sure what others are have. With the explanation on the reason for the wylde.. I get it.
I still see off brand nitride barrels in my gun spam emails that advertise the wylde chamber. WHY? Marketing? Sounds exotic? I guarantee the purchaser isn't shooting 80s.
The Wylde is marketed as more accurate than 5.56 but can still handle 5.56 pressure ammo, so on paper it's the best of both worlds and the "easy choice".
I still see off brand nitride barrels in my gun spam emails that advertise the wylde chamber. WHY? Marketing? Sounds exotic? I guarantee the purchaser isn't shooting 80s.
The Wylde is marketed as more accurate than 5.56 but can still handle 5.56 pressure ammo, so on paper it's the best of both worlds and the "easy choice".
That's the thing. I've had instructors make mention of the chamber throwing fits with hot M193 clone ammo. And Mine shows bulging near the case web on some loads.
Just a typo obviously, but I didn't want to alter the actual post if I was quoting the guy.
Now I have to shoot 80s in my annoying ass Wylde Chamber to see what happens.
Jesus what gun do we have that has a Wylde chamber? My old WOA SPR had one and shot great until it didn’t. That gun was strange.
PB
Jesus what gun do we have that has a Wylde chamber? My old WOA SPR had one and shot great until it didn’t. That gun was strange.
PB
That Iron Sight rifle stock gun of mine. White Oak barrel on it.
Straight Shooter
08-11-22, 17:20
This is a response from a world class rifle builder who makes, amongst other things, Camp Perry rifles & barrels. I will not name him as I do not have permission, it was in response to my initial inquires about barrels on a rifle I was putting together at the time.
"The other thing I don't like about your barrel is the chamber. I use a lot of Wylde chambers. It is a great chamber where long seated 80 thru 90 gr. bullets are being used. Those bullets are seated out longer than mag. length and must be fed single by hand into the chamber. (I realize that is not practical in a hunting rifle.) The freebore on the Wylde causes mag. length ammo like your 77's to jump really long distances before they reach the lands. A new Wylde jumps 77's about .079" before they reach the lands. That much jump compromises groups! I try to not use chambers with that much jump. Where did you purchase this barrel? BTW, starting a barrel off with a chamber this long seriously shortens the life of the barrel."
That's interesting, and makes sense. Although 77s' ogive is pretty forgiving on jump, I suppose it could be hurting the cause. I know my Wylde won't go sub
MOA.
constructor
08-12-22, 09:57
This is a response from a world class rifle builder who makes, amongst other things, Camp Perry rifles & barrels. I will not name him as I do not have permission, it was in response to my initial inquires about barrels on a rifle I was putting together at the time.
"The other thing I don't like about your barrel is the chamber. I use a lot of Wylde chambers. It is a great chamber where long seated 80 thru 90 gr. bullets are being used. Those bullets are seated out longer than mag. length and must be fed single by hand into the chamber. (I realize that is not practical in a hunting rifle.) The freebore on the Wylde causes mag. length ammo like your 77's to jump really long distances before they reach the lands. A new Wylde jumps 77's about .079" before they reach the lands. That much jump compromises groups! I try to not use chambers with that much jump. Where did you purchase this barrel? BTW, starting a barrel off with a chamber this long seriously shortens the life of the barrel."
The 5.56 is even worse. The designed freebore is .012 less but because the diameter of the freebore is .002" larger the angle starts further from the bullet making the effective freebore .022" longer or .022" more jump. The 5.56 CLE(Compass Lake Eng) was designed to shoot the 77s at mag length.
Straight Shooter
08-12-22, 10:40
The 5.56 is even worse. The designed freebore is .012 less but because the diameter of the freebore is .002" larger the angle starts further from the bullet making the effective freebore .022" longer or .022" more jump. The 5.56 CLE(Compass Lake Eng) was designed to shoot the 77s at mag length.
Yes, the same gent was no fan at all of the 5.56 chamber.
"I forgot to comment on the 5.56mm NATO chamber: Worse possible choice unless you are going into REAL combat in a dirty environment! Slop in all directions and a further jump than a Wylde. Just NO reason for a civilian to ever buy a barrel with that chamber!"
Yes, the same gent was no fan at all of the 5.56 chamber.
"I forgot to comment on the 5.56mm NATO chamber: Worse possible choice unless you are going into REAL combat in a dirty environment! Slop in all directions and a further jump than a Wylde. Just NO reason for a civilian to ever buy a barrel with that chamber!"
That's purist view on the situation. I really don't have a problem shooting the Wylde or 5.56 chamber EXCEPT that the Wylde gives me pressure signs. I don't know that the accuracy issues with my WOA barrel are the chamber or the retards at ADCO's horrendous pinning work. Even at that, I can live with a 1.5 MOA barrel, but not the pressure issues.
constructor
08-12-22, 16:26
That's purist view on the situation. I really don't have a problem shooting the Wylde or 5.56 chamber EXCEPT that the Wylde gives me pressure signs. I don't know that the accuracy issues with my WOA barrel are the chamber or the retards at ADCO's horrendous pinning work. Even at that, I can live with a 1.5 MOA barrel, but not the pressure issues.
I think you have a bad barrel or headspace issues. I think I've sold around 70,000 barrels with Wylde chambers and I've never had anyone complain about pressure issues. I used Black Hills MK262 ammo to check accuracy from 2008 to 2017.
Shot F class today with the 80s we leave out at the ranch. Pretty fun. I came in 3rd place and there was only two of us. Still had a blast.
https://i.imgur.com/NVEPD0X.jpg
OutofBatt3ry
08-14-22, 22:44
nvrmnd
Ned Christiansen
08-15-22, 11:09
My comments here would be the following, randomly presented:
1. I don't recall ever seeing a primer pop in a 5.56 chamber. Now this is based only on examining guns that DID pop primers, and of those, all were found to have "not 5.56" chambers.
2. Although my lifelong study is not yet over and is based on what different guns do or seem to do, as opposed to actual laboratory research, .223 Wylde seems to me to be OK with 5.56 ammo. Logic tells me it ought to be but I leaned a long time ago that actual result trump the most logical predictions (when Dad torched a drive shaft off a truck I was shocked that it was tubular and not solid. 8-YO-Me: Dad, you guys got gypped on that drive shaft! Dad: They're all that way.)
3. Many don't agree that .223W is good with 5.56. If that has been their experience I can't say they are wrong. I hear that from time to time but I don't recall every experiencing it.
4. As to what chamber a barrel really, truly has, the one and only best way is to make a cast. What is stamped on it seems "chiseled right there into barrel steel, must be true" but it's really written in Crayon on flash paper (I mean, depending on the source).
5. Going back to 4., if well over half the guns I examine in class have "not 5.56" chambers when they are stamped or engraved 5.56, I conclude that barrels marked ".223 Wylde" may not have that actual chamber. So I hesitate to judge a barrel too harshly unless I can confirm the chamber config.
6. .223 W barrels popping primers might indeed have some other issue or issues. My opinions of the options there:
6a: Overgassed. I feel safe in saying overgassed, undergassed, or even no gas port at all, does not contribute to popped primers. Whatever is popping the primers has happened and is long over by the time
the bullet reaches the gas port. Overgassed would relieve pressure from the barrel more, it anything.
6b: Nobody said this but I often hear it: "they are being cheap with the reamers and are resharpening them, that makes them undersized, that makes the chamber tight, that pops primers." I don't work in a
barrel factory but I know toolmaking and trigonometry and have consulted two reamer makers on this: no one uses a resharpened reamer because to resharpen it you would have to move everything so far
back that it would not be practical or economical.
6c: Short / long headspace, I will agree that could maybe have some effect on pressure but shockingly with all the other stuff that gunmakers and barrel makers get wrong, I very, very seldom see headspace
issues.
6d: If chambers can be off by tens of thousandths of an inch on the lengths, who's to say the land and/or groove diameter can't be maybe .001 too tight? Haven't heard of it, but it could happen.
When we are working with a total .006 interference fit between the bullet (.224") and the barrel bore diameter (.218ish), .001 on the land /groove diameters is a significant percentage. This would
be pretty hard to detect.
7. Everything has a tolerance. Even a perfect chamber can be on the large or small end of its tolerance. My opinion is that a true 5.56 chambers is not going to pop primers even if it's at the low limit for
diameters and lengths.
8. Back to chamber casts. Major pain in the ass, very technique intensive and time consuming, but it is the ultimate. Examining a chamber with a bore scope works pretty well as a field expedient, if
you have a borescope, of course. I've been enjoying the use of a Lyman Digital BoreCam for several years now and it's not the be all, end-all optically, and you can't measure diameters with it but it's pretty
easy to "read" freebore length. I "taught" my BoreCam to "measure" lengths. I laid the lens next to a machinist's scale, and on the display screen I Sharpied tic marks coinciding with every .010".
This makes a crude optical comparitor and it's not up to National Bureau of Standards spec maybe but you can easily tell a .223 Rem from anything else. Also you can just sort of compare lengths to
groove widths--a standard that seems pretty universally adhered to-- which, I hesitate to go from memory but I think it's .073. So you can look at that width and kinda compare it to some lengths.
BoreCams and very reasonably priced, I just got the new one that uses your phone for a screen, have not had time yet to fire it up.
9: I'm with everyone here in the quest for .5MOA groups. I'm not up to the level of many of you in many of the aspects of this quest but I gotta say that I have had very satisfactory groups with a true 5.56
chamber. I have zero barrels with .223 Remington chambers; in my range experiences I can't say I've seen a world of dif between .223W and 5.56. I have not ever personally popped a primer in a .223W
chamber. I'll grantcha that among National Champs at Camp Perry there are zero 5.56 chambers in use.
Thanks for the informative post Ned. I actually enjoyed shooting my Wylde gun yesterday. Hadn't had it out in a few months.
Interesting point on the rareness of headspace issues. I see guys suggesting this as a problem all the time here, and I've never seen it on any AR15 guns we've ran.
It's something you can tell pretty easily when you hand load... I have seen it in bolt gun for sure. Just yesterday I ran some Lapua brass cased 6.5 CM loads that hadn't been sized at all from their last firing (except for the neck). They were really tight in one Bergara chamber, and dropped right into another Bergara chamber like they were factory loads.
Shot F class today with the 80s we leave out at the ranch. Pretty fun. I came in 3rd place and there was only two of us. Still had a blast.
https://i.imgur.com/NVEPD0X.jpg
Those 80's almost look like 300 worthless in that pic. I've only shot 77's and those 80's look Super Sized in that picture.
Those 80's almost look like 300 worthless in that pic. I've only shot 77's and those 80's look Super Sized in that picture.
They're a mild H322 load. I've loaded these bullets stupid hot before. They're only fun to shoot for about 5-10 rounds. Single feeding is for the birds.
My comments here would be the following, randomly presented:
1. I don't recall ever seeing a primer pop in a 5.56 chamber. Now this is based only on examining guns that DID pop primers, and of those, all were found to have "not 5.56" chambers.
***SNIP***
3. Many don't agree that .223W is good with 5.56. If that has been their experience I can't say they are wrong. I hear that from time to time but I don't recall every experiencing it.
4. As to what chamber a barrel really, truly has, the one and only best way is to make a cast. What is stamped on it seems "chiseled right there into barrel steel, must be true" but it's really written in Crayon on flash paper (I mean, depending on the source).
1,3) To reinforce your point, the only times I can remember popping primers in a proper 5.56 chamber (I have your gauge), it has been from bad ammo. As to Wylde, I’ve got a couple buddies that shoot a lot with barrels so marked, including actual (not XM) M855 and M855a1, and lots of XM, Barnes, Black Hills, etc, with no problems, except with aforementioned bad ammo. I’ve done the same with Noveske 5.56 Match Mod 0, which is similar to Wylde. While I retain enough skepticism to prefer 5.56 chambers, particularly since I can verify that, I’ve concluded that Wylde is probably fine.
4) Not all 5.56 marked barrels pass a check with your gauge. I’ve wondered myself if worn reamers could be the cause.
I think that you are right that not all bores are created equally, given that I also have a Lyman bore cam.
Straight Shooter
08-15-22, 15:26
They're a mild H322 load. I've loaded these bullets stupid hot before. They're only fun to shoot for about 5-10 rounds. Single feeding is for the birds.
Mark- may I axe what velocities you were getting with both mild & stupid hot loads? Is recoil noticeably diferent?
Mark- may I axe what velocities you were getting with both mild & stupid hot loads? Is recoil noticeably diferent?
I'll have to check when I get home. The H322 load in the pic above is 22.2 gr and not very hot at all. I know I cranked up some TAC loads that blew a piece of the primer into the Rem 700s firing pin hole and shut the gun down until Pappabear could tear it apart at home.
Straight Shooter
08-15-22, 20:14
I'll have to check when I get home. The H322 load in the pic above is 22.2 gr and not very hot at all. I know I cranked up some TAC loads that blew a piece of the primer into the Rem 700s firing pin hole and shut the gun down until Pappabear could tear it apart at home.
Thank you brother- dont go to a lot of trouble. Thats a lot of pressure on the 700, too..wow.
Thank you brother- dont go to a lot of trouble. Thats a lot of pressure on the 700, too..wow.
You should have saw how fast we pushed the 85 gr barnes before a case burst.
Anyway found it!
80 gr sierra, 25.2 gr TAC, 2885 FPS. Note says "Pierced primers, too hot" 6/16/2019
Straight Shooter
08-15-22, 22:13
You should have saw how fast we pushed the 85 gr barnes before a case burst.
Anyway found it!
80 gr sierra, 25.2 gr TAC, 2885 FPS. Note says "Pierced primers, too hot" 6/16/2019
Good Lord man! Were yall "remote firing" that thing?! :D
The longer load on the 80s allows for more powder, and the load was actually .5 gr below Ramshot's published max for 5.56 ammo. I probably could have dialed in a 2825 is load that wasn't piercing primers. But again, the long cartridge is a pain to deal with.
My comments here would be the following, randomly presented:
1. I don't recall ever seeing a primer pop in a 5.56 chamber. Now this is based only on examining guns that DID pop primers, and of those, all were found to have "not 5.56" chambers.
2. Although my lifelong study is not yet over and is based on what different guns do or seem to do, as opposed to actual laboratory research, .223 Wylde seems to me to be OK with 5.56 ammo.
... if well over half the guns I examine in class have "not 5.56" chambers when they are stamped or engraved 5.56, I conclude that barrels marked ".223 Wylde" may not have that actual chamber. So I hesitate to judge a barrel too harshly unless I can confirm the chamber config.
7. Everything has a tolerance. Even a perfect chamber can be on the large or small end of its tolerance. My opinion is that a true 5.56 chambers is not going to pop primers even if it's at the low limit for diameters and lengths.
9: I'm with everyone here in the quest for .5MOA groups. I'm not up to the level of many of you in many of the aspects of this quest but I gotta say that I have had very satisfactory groups with a true 5.56 chamber. I have zero barrels with .223 Remington chambers; in my range experiences I can't say I've seen a world of dif between .223W and 5.56. I have not ever personally popped a primer in a .223W chamber. I'll grantcha that among National Champs at Camp Perry there are zero 5.56 chambers in use.
Philosophies regarding rifle chambers, from different perspectives between blasters, combat shooters, and competitive target shooters.
A .223 Remington barrel is great for casual shooting and for most shooters will give you satisfactory performance. It goes bang with most commercial ammo to the limits of its precision potential. 55-grain Ball is what it is, and most barrels are mass-produced.
A .223 Wylde will give better general performance if you buy better ammo or load with good bullets, and is slightly better if shooting Match-grade ammo (quality handloads, quality bullets).
5.56 is generally a "GI solution" for shooting very good to poor ammo, and high round-count schools and training.
A USAMU competitive National Match target shooter is issued two M16 lowers and five uppers, and it's his-her personal responsibility to manage and rotate them so he has a practice upper, a match upper, and a spare (or at the gunsmith getting re-barreled). These have a tight body but long 5.56 throat to inter-changeably shoot 77s at 200 and 300 and single-loaded 80s at 600.
One specialized barrel has close to a Frank White CLE .223 chamber because it's reserved for "Rattle Battle," a long-range rapid fire match shot at 600 and 500 yards (you get 50 seconds at 600 and 45 at 500 to shoot as many 77-grain round as you can at E-type GI slihouette targets). The fifth and last upper has a tight chamber with a long throat to shoot 80-grain ammo at targets 800, 900, and 1000 yards.
The Action (IPSC-style) teams shoot run-and-gun matches with a number of Wylde chambers for hot-dusty conditions with precision.
Combat shooting (in full military combat uniform) is generally M855A1 5.56 through GI mil chambers and barrels in issue guns.
Like having different golf clubs -- pick the right one for mission or discipline you're shooting.
Straight Shooter
08-16-22, 15:36
I am ALWAYS amazed at the quality of knowledge that is given out here on the Forum. Several of yall, damn Id like to just sit & talk with for a day..or two.
Thank you all.
A USAMU competitive National Match target shooter is issued two M16 lowers and five uppers, and it's his-her personal responsibility to manage and rotate them so he has a practice upper, a match upper, and a spare (or at the gunsmith getting re-barreled). These have a tight body but long 5.56 throat to inter-changeably shoot 77s at 200 and 300 and single-loaded 80s at 600.
That's a high class arrangement.
. . ALLOW AN 80GR SMK BE SINGLE LOADED. it is designed for one thing and one thing only 600 yard 80gr single load . .
The 223 Wylde was invented in 1984. The 80 grain SMK wasn't invented until 1992.
...
Wait what? Were they single feeding some other long bullet perhaps?
One More Time
08-17-22, 15:32
It looks like it was developed when he was working with the Canadians and their ammo at the time.
The ability to use the 80gn SMK was just lucky.
Seems it was more geared towards 69gn mag length ammo.
constructor
08-17-22, 23:12
It looks like it was developed when he was working with the Canadians and their ammo at the time.
The ability to use the 80gn SMK was just lucky.
Seems it was more geared towards 69gn mag length ammo.
Right, he made it for the 69SMK. I remember getting my first Wylde from Derrick Martin of Accuracy Speaks right around the time the AWB kicked in, I still have the Pre-ban receiver.
constructor
08-17-22, 23:17
Wait what? Were they single feeding some other long bullet perhaps?
Long bullets/ long ogives with a restricted length need a shorter freebore, the 69s are kind of blunt compared to 77s and 80s.
The 69 Match King was the premium .223 / 5.56 bullet until the 77 and 80s.
The Wylde throat and leade is a little more tolerant than the .223 SAAMI chamber for dust, but not so atrociously long as the .mil 5.56 chamber (since civilians don't shoot tracers, either).
Bill said the Canadian SS-109 equivalent was remarkably good ammo.
Surprisingly, the German firm DWM was the first place to R&D 77s way earlier than anyone else in the 70s-80s.
"As with most things genius, his design is simple, yet extremely effective. Wylde took the leade angle of the 5.56 NATO design and mated it to the tighter chamber body dimension and leade length of the .223 Rem. design."
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/content/223-wylde-the-ideal-ar-15-chamber/
Years ago, Bill Wylde himself stated "The case dimensions of the Wylde reamer are that of one of the NATO prints. Not a thing tight about it."
...
It looks like it was developed when he was working with the Canadians and their ammo at the time.
Regarding the 223 Wylde, Bill Wylde himself has stated "The initial reamer (designed in 1984) was mainly geared toward Canadian 5.56 ball, as I was experimenting with their issue ball for competitive purposes."
....
.223 Wylde seems to me to be OK with 5.56 ammo.
Naturally, that depends upon the 5.56mm ammunition being used. The 10-shot groups pictured below were fired from one of my semi-automatic AR-15s with a 223 Wylde chamber.
5.56mm M855A1: extreme spread = 1.78”
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/M855A1_10_shot_group_at_100_yards_001-2423067.jpg
5.56mm Black Hills 77 grain Tipped MatchKing: extreme spread = 1.14”
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/black_hills_556mm_77_TMK_measured_10_sho-1336384.jpg
5.56mm MK262 Mod 1: extreme spread = 0.96”
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/black_hills_mk262_mod_1_best_group_02-1342440.jpg
5.56mm Barnes 85 grain Match Burner: extreme spread = 0.76”
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/barnes_factory_85_matchburner_10_shot_gr-2495390.jpg
....
One More Time
08-19-22, 18:10
Found this on a search, seems legitimate.
https://i.imgur.com/8k9Ww83l.png
This is a response from a world class rifle builder who makes, amongst other things, Camp Perry rifles & barrels. I will not name him as I do not have permission, it was in response to my initial inquires about barrels on a rifle I was putting together at the time.
"The other thing I don't like about your barrel is the chamber. I use a lot of Wylde chambers. It is a great chamber where long seated 80 thru 90 gr. bullets are being used. Those bullets are seated out longer than mag. length and must be fed single by hand into the chamber. (I realize that is not practical in a hunting rifle.) The freebore on the Wylde causes mag. length ammo like your 77's to jump really long distances before they reach the lands. A new Wylde jumps 77's about .079" before they reach the lands. That much jump compromises groups! I try to not use chambers with that much jump. Where did you purchase this barrel? BTW, starting a barrel off with a chamber this long seriously shortens the life of the barrel."
The 10-shot group pictured below was fired from one of my semi-automatic AR-15s with a 223 Wylde chamber, using 77 grain Sierra MatchKings seated to magazine length. The group has an extreme spread of 0.61".
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/lothar_barrel__10_shot_group_77_smk-2495425.jpg
....
Interesting. I knew it was in-between the .223 and 5.56 chamber dimensions, and that it is supposed to be more accurate, but I did not know it was designed for longer 80 gr projectiles.
On a previous page I mentioned that the 223 Wylde was released in 1984 and the 80 grain Sierra MatchKing wasn't even invented until 1992.
....
A .223 Remington barrel is great for casual shooting and for most shooters will give you satisfactory performance.
Some of the smallest 10-shot groups that I've ever fired from a semi-automatic AR-15 were with barrels that had 223 Remington chambers.
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/62_hp_10_shot_group_at_100_yards_223_kri-2485757.jpg
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/55_blitzking_from_223_krieger_at_100_yar-2485755.jpg
...
After reading that 2015 Army Research Lab report on the primer/bullet movement, I can see how a short leade would help precision for sure.
Great info from some truly knowledgeable people. Thanks for taking the time to post.
For what it’s worth, I’ve never had any issues with any of the Wylde or CLE chambered rifles I’ve ever owned with factory or hand loaded ammo. Black Hills 69gr TMK is smoking hot, lol. They’ve always been more accurate/precise than any 5.56 chambered barrel I’ve owned, including a cut rifled Rock Creek MRP.
Some of the smallest 10-shot groups that I've ever fired from a semi-automatic AR-15 were with barrels that had 223 Remington chambers.
...
I doubt we have even a handful of guys here that have ever owned an AR anything with a real .223 chamber.
Yet many still comment on them like they know what they are talking about...
After reading that 2015 Army Research Lab report on the primer/bullet movement, I can see how a short leade would help precision for sure.
If you are looking for an accurate barrel/ammunition combination, look at what people are shooting on the 600 yard stage at Camp Perry or Camp Butler.
ffhounddog
11-29-22, 13:25
I like fast M193 dont care for the people saying to drop it back because of the crappy chamber.
yes I know it is a slower burning powder which makes for higher pressure further down the bore. That load is right at 100 fps faster than the mil spec 5.56 ammo, my Pressure Trace confirms a little over 60k Peak while showing the M855 and M193 around 56500k. The M855 spec says 58k and 3060fps out of a 20" barrel so it should hit around 2900 out of a 16" but it does not, not even at 90 degrees like it was this week. All of it is old stuff I've had since we could get it for $149/can IMI, PPU and LC. Anyway the point I was making is the Wylde with a freebore of .062 and even the CLE chamber with a .025 freebore do not pop primers or show signs of pressure in my barrels with M193 or M855 ammo so if I had one that was popping primers I would start looking at headspace and the port size.
ETA- these results from a 16" 3R 7.7 twist barrel with the 5.56 CLE chamber.
Yeah, max loads with that powder do exceed military loads in velocity without pressure signs. When I worked up toward max, I ended up chickening out before hitting pressure signs of any sort. There was simply more velocity than I needed. Its just super slow burning with 62s and a light crimp. SD and Temp sensitivity are different topics. It needs to be around 27+gr to get decent SDs.
I want a Pressure Trace pretty badly.
CLE chamber certainly changes things.
Anyway, thanks for posting.
I like fast M193 dont care for the people saying to drop it back because of the crappy chamber.
I used to like M193 more years ago. But with short range steel, it's too brutal. That stuff beats up AR500. And for longer range, a heavier bullet it preferred...which usually give a different ZERO/POI than 55 gr. So we've just kinda gotten away from shooting any 55 gr stuff just for keeping guns zeroed with the heavier projectiles. Nevermind the whole chamber issue.
I used to like M193 more years ago. But with short range steel, it's too brutal. That stuff beats up AR500. And for longer range, a heavier bullet it preferred...which usually give a different ZERO/POI than 55 gr. So we've just kinda gotten away from shooting any 55 gr stuff just for keeping guns zeroed with the heavier projectiles. Nevermind the whole chamber issue.
Yeah, same. For close to the same price, 62s do less damage to the steel up close, and ring them harder further out. Win-win.
Related?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?237822-223-wylde
Yeah. That thread started 3 months after this one. They're a little more laxed on duplicates here these days. It used to be quite the opposite. In fact, they were down right rude to guys who didn't "use the search function"
Bumping this one to ask... Is Ned's chamber reamer still a thing? I have a 14.5 that's behaving exactly like a wilde chamber, and I'm sick of it. Fukker popped a primer again today and jammed up the upper silly.
I'd love to run Ned's reamer.
titsonritz
02-17-24, 16:53
Bumping this one to ask... Is Ned's chamber reamer still a thing? I have a 14.5 that's behaving exactly like a wilde chamber, and I'm sick of it. Fukker popped a primer again today and jammed up the upper silly.
I'd love to run Ned's reamer.
It is still on his website so I would assume so, hopefully it is because I’ve been wanting to pick one up as well.
http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php
It is still on his website so I would assume so, hopefully it is because I’ve been wanting to pick one up as well.
http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php
After digesting my 14.5 barrel velocity comparison, I'm convinced I have several chambers that need help. I couldn't find one single youtube on this device though.
titsonritz
02-17-24, 18:04
After digesting my 14.5 barrel velocity comparison, I'm convinced I have several chambers that need help. I couldn't find one single youtube on this device though.
I’ve seen Will use it a few times in his classes. A bunch of shavings came out of those chambers. I’ve never seen a video online, only photos on Ned’s site.
I'm going to have to buy one I think. I need to pay down some ammo/components debt first, but this is going to help a few guns if I can get one.
Emailed Ned and confirmed the reamer is still available. Now I need to rationalize paying more for a tool than the barrel it's going to fix. :sarcastic:
I'm thinking I get ream the wylde chamber that I'm not thrilled with, so that's two barrels fixed I guess.
anachronism
02-19-24, 20:19
deleted. I'm too slow.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.