Tips/tricks for keeping DOPE on the gun [Archive]

Wake27

06-23-22, 11:12

This forum has started drifting into lots of politics and current events and less shooting over the past few years and I think several of us need a break. Plus, I know next to nothing about precision and/or medium range engagements but will be shooting a match in a couple of weeks with targets out to 600yds. The gun is a 14.5 BCM ELW BFH with MRAD Razor 1-10 zero’d at 50yds.

My memory sucks, especially when it comes to numbers, and this is a run and gun so I’ll be physically smoked by the time I get to this stage. I’ve chrono’d the 77gr FGMM that I’ll be using for the distance targets and thrown the data into StrelokPro (hopefully correctly). What’s the best way to reference these holds? Only thing I can come up with is trying to print one of these pictures and use packaging tape to kind of laminate it and adhere it to my stock.

Hoping some of you guys have better ideas.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220623/3465fbd31b1054132f38924c476eb9f0.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220623/d9df114b9a2892c9dde68d38e3fb7562.jpg

ETA - Rifle targets will range from 60 yards out to 600 yards. 6" or 8" round or diamond targets ranging from 60 to 90 yards. 10" round or diamond targets at 100 yards, 12" round or diamond at 200 yards, ABC aka BBC 12"X24" at 300 yards, 18"X22" at 400 yards, full size IPSC 18"X30 at 500 and 600 yards.

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Eurodriver

06-23-22, 13:20

I shoot PRS. I have shot enough to know how many mils corresponds to roughly what distance. IE 1.1 is 300y. 7.6 is 1000y

On stages where there is a lot of target changes with random distances I use a rubber wire with an alligator clip and attach an index card with the values I need for that stage.

My guess is that your targets will be big enough at a carbine match that you won’t really have that issue. I can’t imagine you shooting 4” plates at 300y. Still you can use the above method or just memorize to get you close.

crosseyedshooter

06-23-22, 15:18

Are these known distance targets? If so, you can map out your course of fire with holds. I wouldn’t rely on ballistics app to be correct at every distance especially if you’re zero’d at 50 and extrapolating to 600. You might be close if you have the correct muzzle velocity and height over bore. It’d be better if you could validate your drop at some intermediate distance such as 200, if not at every 100 yard increment.

Having said that, I’ve found a mini-map was very helpful to me for a fixed course of fire with known distance targets. For example, if the targets are located roughly as below. I might shoot left to right, 200, then 600 just behind it then the 400 to the right using the holds written on my map.

600 yards_4.0

…………………………………. 400 yards_2.0

200 yards_0.2

ETA: That picture from StrelokPro is way too cluttered for me. If you have unknown distance targets and just need a reference table, then a plain spreadsheet with drops every 50 yards is much easier to read.

gunnerblue

06-23-22, 15:29

https://www.scheels.com/p/under-armour-football-skill-wrist-coach/2231-UA20820.html

I used to use this on my support forearm for hunting, I thought it was very useful for quickly getting dope. Since I rarely shoot multiple ranges/targets when hunting I just went back to taping the dope to the stock which also works well and quickly.

Wake27

06-23-22, 16:07

I updated the OP with what info we were given about the targets, I appreciate the thoughts so far. Maybe I should just take a piece of Rite in the Rain paper and hand write in the stadia and approximate yardage for each? I do believe I got all of the environmental data pretty close, as well as height over bore. Unfortunately I'm preparing for a move and won't be able to confirm hits at various differences so I'm rolling in with minimal prep.

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pointblank4445

06-23-22, 16:37

I've done "cheat sheets" and reticle mappings like the above scaled down and printed out and clear taped to my buffer tube just behind the castle nut. I used to put this on the inside of my eyepiece lens cover but offset red dots took this out of play. I'll note that it helps de-clutter if you do the half-mil values on one side and the full mil values on the other to clean things up a bit if you find you MUST have both.

I'll normally do an "average" atmospheric dope chart (dope for every 50y out to whatever...usually 650-700 for AR depending on config) taped to either the left side of the scope forward the rear diopter or the left side of the gun's receiver.

I've done the QB armband thing and its not always accessible all the time when built up....I put things on my gun where it doesn't require a ton of movement.

contax_shooter

06-23-22, 18:12

I would ditch the 50 yard zero if you're getting into more precise holds using mils. Since you already have chronograph data, try the speed drop concept. Your typical run and gun AR match should have meatball sized targets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU7CRZazZm8&t=183s

Pappabear

06-24-22, 12:45

If you can shoot out to 3-4-5 hundred and check DOPE and titrate backwards. BC you want to be dead on at further distances vs very close shots, 50-200 pops. I had a DOA 600 scope from Bushnell that gave stadia marks out to 600, it suggested you zero at 200 then the reticle will do the rest. I zeroed at 500 then worked back knowing Im not missing a Deer / Elk at 200. Back when 600 was a looong shot.

Just one consideration. And a laminated card is a good idea, could put in bill of your cap if that works for you, but have handy either way.

PB

MegademiC

06-24-22, 20:56

Make sure to have the ambient temperature correct.
It made a huge difference for me... like a mil at 650.

Wake27

06-24-22, 22:25

Make sure to have the ambient temperature correct.
It made a huge difference for me... like a mil at 650.

Huh, would not have guessed that. It’ll be at least 10-15* hotter for the match and maybe 1-2k feet lower…

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Korgs130

06-25-22, 13:04

After taking a DMR class with Jim Kauber a couple of years ago, I make a small copy of my DOPE card and tape it to my stock. Ammo, outside air temp and elevation of the DOPE included. This is on my LMT MWS w/ NF SHV 4-14 F1. I have the a similar DOPE setup for my BCM 14.5 ELW-F w/ 1-10 Razor.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220625/4dea0b31dc0f4d5a29d5a5bdbd3ed56c.jpg

Wake27

06-25-22, 16:23

BrigandTwoFour

06-26-22, 06:55

So really stupid question - that’s to dial on a turret right? Not some reference to the stadia?

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It works either way. You can dial the turrets or do holds, as long as the reticle and turrets match each other (i.e. they both use MRAD) then it works. Some people prefer to do holds for both elevation and wind as much as possible, others like me will dial elevation and hold for wind.

As for the "best" way to keep dope data with your gun, there are lots of methods. When I did my first PRS rimfire match, I went and created a series of cards and stuffed them into a arm board so I could glance down at my arm. It turns out that it was unnecessary since the target distances are known ahead of time. So I instead just slapped a piece of tape the top with the dope for each target in the stage. Other competitors had little attachments mounted to their guns that held little plastic boards for doing the same. The super fancy ones had digital e-paper style readers that displayed the dope for the stage.

Here's a picture of the arm board I use. It's a Tyr Tactical minimalist model.
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/DOPE-card-cover.jpg

The actual cards are like 2" x 4.25" and I work them up using JBM ballistics and my own chrono data. Then I laminate them. This particular one is for my Tikka T1x 22lr

https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/t1x-dope-card-centerx.png

I saved a template that anyone can download and make their own versions here. If you don't mind a little self promotion, it's at the bottom of this article: Custom Dope Cards (https://www.everydaymarksman.co/marksmanship/dope-card/). These don't have to go in an arm board. You could easily tape it to anything.

Korgs130

06-26-22, 09:49

So really stupid question - that’s to dial on a turret right? Not some reference to the stadia?

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Like Brigand said, it works either way. The mils are referencing the stadia graduations. The NF on my MWS has more of a conventional reticle with exposed turrets, so my preference is to dial for distance (elevation) and hold for wind / target movement. With the 1-10 Razor having the Christmas tree reticle and capped turrets, my preference is to hold for both distance and wind.

Eurodriver

06-26-22, 10:54

pointblank4445

06-26-22, 11:12

This is great but what do you do if you laze something at 342 yards?

2.1 mils…

Though I’m dubious on this data as we are seeing 0.9 between each 100y then 1.4 mils between 400-500 but as we lose speed up to 1.1mils from 500-600. Something ain’t right

ST911

06-26-22, 13:04

Caveats- Work guns, same guns with similar dope, dialing for elevation and holding wind. I memorize 100-500 in 50yd increments, backed up with 100yd increments written on the front lens cap. I've also sharpied or paint-penned dope along the L side of the receiver (R handed shooter). A card/table on the receiver extension can work, but those tend to come off or need more movement to view.

Small changes in atmospherics may not matter much/enough to warrant changes. Run the tables, shoot to true, and see for your gun/load.

Eurodriver

06-30-22, 16:45

2.1 mils…

Though I’m dubious on this data as we are seeing 0.9 between each 100y then 1.4 mils between 400-500 but as we lose speed up to 1.1mils from 500-600. Something ain’t right

For me running 69gr Black Hills SMK ammo at 2700 FPS (I feel this is fair for a 16-18" DMR?)

I get

200y 0.5
300y 1.3
400y 2.4
500y 3.7
600y 5.3

So 0.5, 0.8, 1.1, 1.3, and 1.6 between each distance, respectively.

I'm not seeing how he could be getting 0.8 at 200y but only 5.1 at 600y.

Korgs can you share your projectile, sight height, and speed?

RHINOWSO

06-30-22, 17:34

After taking a DMR class with Jim Kauber a couple of years ago, I make a small copy of my DOPE card and tape it to my stock. Ammo, outside air temp and elevation of the DOPE included.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220625/4dea0b31dc0f4d5a29d5a5bdbd3ed56c.jpg

I do the same thing on all my rifles, albeit taped to the side of the stock- instantly tells the shooter where the rifle is zeroed / for what load / altitude / temp.

Yeah, it's not a replacement for Strelok Pro nor a gucci chart with laser range finding and environmental quirks.

But it gives you a quick reference and a starting point to TLAR it / interpolate as needed.

In short, it's better than nothing which is what you'll have with only your rifle without it.

Eurodriver

06-30-22, 20:45

In short, it's better than nothing which is what you'll have with only your rifle without it.

I don’t mean this in a condescending way whatsoever but what is the issue with memorizing? It’s 5 sets of numbers.

Wake27

06-30-22, 21:26

I don’t mean this in a condescending way whatsoever but what is the issue with memorizing? It’s 5 sets of numbers.

Personally, I’ve never been great with numbers and my last TBI really screwed up some parts of my memory so I’m not optimistic on that one.

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Korgs130

07-01-22, 10:30

For me running 69gr Black Hills SMK ammo at 2700 FPS (I feel this is fair for a 16-18" DMR?)

I get

200y 0.5
300y 1.3
400y 2.4
500y 3.7
600y 5.3

So 0.5, 0.8, 1.1, 1.3, and 1.6 between each distance, respectively.

I'm not seeing how he could be getting 0.8 at 200y but only 5.1 at 600y.

Korgs can you share your projectile, sight height, and speed?

Here is what I was shooting:

- LMT MWS with 16” chrome lined barrel
- Sight height: 1.54”
- Ammo: Federal Premium Gold Metal Match 308
- Projectile: 168 grain Sierra Match King
- Elevation: 862’
- Temp: 90 degrees F

I don’t have the either the muzzle velocity or the barometric pressure. The main focus of the class was accomplishing the DMR role without the use of electronic. So no Streloks, no Kestrels. We did the math old school, with a pen and paper, to estimate our come-ups for 200-600 yards prior to hitting the range. After zeroing, the we spend next couple of hours verifying and adjusting our actual numbers at 200/300/400/500/600.

That DOPE is what I actually shot and verified at each of those distances. Some deviation from what I calculated in the class room, and some deviation from what I get when I run it through iStrelok estimating the baro and muzzle velocity. I don’t have enough knowledge or experience to explain those slight differences.

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RHINOWSO

07-01-22, 13:02

I don’t mean this in a condescending way whatsoever but what is the issue with memorizing? It’s 5 sets of numbers.
I'm sure if I was on duty / serving and had one rifle, with one optic, with one ammunition, that wouldn't be a problem.

Even then, a quick reference guide costs about 5 min and $0.75 to make. Nice for a refresher or if someone else is using the rifle.

Wake27

07-02-22, 18:56

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220702/f760be2fe86d543711778a8cb091d04b.jpg

So this is what I came up with so far. It was a blend of my original idea with some tweaks based on feedback here. It’s Rite in the Rain paper and ink so that part should be fine but I’m not sure that the packing tape will hold through the run n gun.

I’m considering playing around with a paint pen on the inside of my elevation turret cap. I’d obviously have to pull it off to see it but at least it’d be protected from wiping off. I think I’d pick a few big values from the chart though - maybe 300, 450, and 600.

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ST911

07-02-22, 19:16

I’m considering playing around with a paint pen on the inside of my elevation turret cap. I’d obviously have to pull it off to see it but at least it’d be protected from wiping off. I think I’d pick a few big values from the chart though - maybe 300, 450, and 600.

Inside the cap limits use, a paint pen on the outside will hold up well. Depending on the size of your cap, put your first several hundred on the elevation and the rest on the windage. Lots of options.

Wake27

07-02-22, 19:18

Inside the cap limits use, a paint pen on the outside will hold up well. Depending on the size of your cap, put your first several hundred on the elevation and the rest on the windage. Lots of options.

Think it’ll hold even if I’m dripping sweat right on it and it’s rubbing against my kit for several miles in the heat?

ETA - guess I could do both just to be safe. Am I the only one that wants the diagram? Starting to see that most people just use the mil values…

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pointblank4445

07-03-22, 14:14

ETA - guess I could do both just to be safe. Am I the only one that wants the diagram? Starting to see that most people just use the mil values…

Depends on the gun/game/optic. With PRS where I'm mostly fighting stability and wind, it makes more sense for me to have yardage dope so I can just as easily hold or dial with that info (especially if your reticle makes you hold off in no-stadia-land for your solution) in this context of generally known distances. If we're 3-gunnin' or DMR'ing stuff, and I can get away with finding the best hold point/solution and sending it to an appropriately sized target then I've done the reticle map thing as well.

All that said, it's mostly a question of how you prefer to process your information and where you want your more psychologically satisfying numbers:

2 mil = 381 yards
or
2.1 mil = 400 yards

With that, most of us estimate in increments of 100, 50, 25y depending on the overall distance and skill.

Wake27

07-03-22, 14:24

Depends on the gun/game/optic. With PRS where I'm mostly fighting stability and wind, it makes more sense for me to have yardage dope so I can just as easily hold or dial with that info (especially if your reticle makes you hold off in no-stadia-land for your solution) in this context of generally known distances. If we're 3-gunnin' or DMR'ing stuff, and I can get away with finding the best hold point/solution and sending it to an appropriately sized target then I've done the reticle map thing as well.

All that said, it's mostly a question of how you prefer to process your information and where you want your more psychologically satisfying numbers:

2 mil = 381 yards
or
2.1 mil = 400 yards

With that, most of us estimate in increments of 100, 50, 25y depending on the overall distance and skill.

Thanks.

I don’t know how I’ll like it so I have both setup. The photo above with the reticle and corresponding stadia and then on the turret caps I have KD holds for every 50m from 250-700. Figured I’ll dry fire with both and just let my brain pick whichever it likes in the moment. If the caps don’t rub off, that already feels a bit cleaner/faster even though I’m a visual person.

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Wake27

07-10-22, 09:05

Disappointed in myself that I didn’t use these references more yesterday. The fact I was on the clock and pretty smoked I think just caused me to rush on most of the stages. I used the .mil holds on the turret caps a few times and I think it helped but I should’ve looked more.

It wasn’t a great place to test out the concept with all of the variables but I shot the stages better than last time so it was an improvement at least. Once I get to NC, I’m going to try and find a dedicated LPVO course that focuses on 300-600m if I can.

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Ned Christiansen

07-10-22, 09:16

Wake27

07-10-22, 09:25

Well in any case good on ya for getting out there and doing it. I submit that it WAS a great place to test the concept. You probably learned more that way, right? I love your graphic, that's an easily-digested format.

That’s true I did, I just meant that since I was panting so heavy and in full kit, it’s hard to know if my dope was off or it was shooter error on my misses.

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