View Full Version : Tier1 AR15 recommendations for a first time AR purchase
I have a neighbor that wants to get his first AR15 in 556. He is willing to spend $2000+ on the AR. I am knowable on AR's, but I have older knowledge, not the information for newer AR's that are available on the market today. He is looking for a tier1 AR with a 16 inch barrel, with a threaded flash hider. I told him reliability and accuracy should be the main requirements with his purchase.
I told him to to get a 1/8 WYLDE barrel, also a 2 stage trigger, with a M16 bolt carrier, with a CHF, or nitrated barrel. I am not sure if he would wants a DI, or pistol gas system. What is available in the market today? He wants to eventually put an ACOG on this AR.
Please give me some recommendations on what features he should consider. Obviously the AR15 should be available to be bought online. I don't want to steer him wrong. Buy once, and buy right.
Thanks in advance(y)
titsonritz
07-07-22, 13:16
I told him to to get a 1/8 WYLDE barrel
I wouldn't make that a priority.
nitrated barrel.
I still favor chrome lining myself.
I am not sure if he would wants a DI, or pistol gas system.
He wants a DI
Hammer_Man
07-07-22, 13:46
Chrome lining still reigns supreme in my opinion. Also, no need to for a two stage trigger in a general purpose rifle. What is his intended use for the weapon?
I won't take a nitrided barrel for free. Wylde chambers are a pain in some cases. The intention of the chamber is almost never realized by most shooters, and I have NO idea why manufacturers keep making so many of them.
And he damned sure wants DI... Although we've been shooting Barrett's REC7 piston AR the last 3 weeks, and it actually works good, and is a sub MOA shooter.
Not sure why it obviously needs to be bought online but I’d just tell him to find a BCM with MCMR and ELW barrel.
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Easy button: Geissele Super Duty.
If I wanted to spend $2000+ on an AR, I would be all over this>>> https://www.gandrtactical.com/Colt-CR6960-16-Mid-Length-556_p_240.html
The $850+ I would be saving would be spent on Magpul Gen III and/or Okay Industries Magazines, a dozen at least. Then a 2-Point sling, a Weapon Mounted Light that uses a MLOK mount. An optic will easily eat up what's ever left and then some whether it's a "reliable" red dot sight or a scope. And don't forget a BUIS.
I'm sure your neighbor is setting aside an ammo budget. A thousand rounds for training/range purposes will probably set him back $500 if not more, and "Duty" rounds will be in the $25 to $35 for a box of twenty. Yep, it adds up pretty quick. Oh, I almost forgot, after he gets on a range and finds out his groups aren't as good as he thought they would be, then come the modifications! Oh yeah. Change out the stock, grip, trigger group, add a bipod to steady the shakes, and of course a muzzle device for those super fast follow up shots. Yessiree that rabbit hole can get mighty big in a hurry! Well, good luck to him.
Get a Colt and spend the rest on optic of choice.
If I wanted to spend $2000+ on an AR, I would be all over this>>> https://www.gandrtactical.com/Colt-CR6960-16-Mid-Length-556_p_240.html
This is a really, really good deal for a great Tier-1 rifle. ^
That 6960 or a BCM MCMR ELWF would be choices for me. Keep it simple. Leave a bunch of money for mags, ammo, sling, and optic.
If you get the 6960 instead of a BCM, used the saved cash to get a nicer trigger, or even BCM’s PNT trigger.
Top teir never in stock. I would build one. Its fun and you learn a lot.
BCM
LMT
DD
Geissele Super Duty
Colt ( That G&R gun is good and for the price really good )
Used KAC if you can find one
I would say these days just buy a gun that is already decked out with rail etc. And tell him to disregard your other suggestions, but do it politely please.
PB
Easy button: Geissele Super Duty.
Lots of QC issues right now. TOS has an ongoing thread where several people have non functional guns, including me. I think the chambers are too tight. There’s also potential problems with their stand alone barrel gas port sizes. And I heard rumors of issues back in August, not much evidence on that but from a likely trustworthy source.
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Lots of QC issues right now. TOS has an ongoing thread where several people have non functional guns, including me. I think the chambers are too tight. There’s also potential problems with their stand alone barrel gas port sizes. And I heard rumors of issues back in August, not much evidence on that but from a likely trustworthy source.
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I’m starting to think I bought a Unicorn G rifle. Mine is stupid accurate and gassed to perfection. I saw threads on Snipershide and one member pm’d me his troubles with his barrel being out of speck. It’s sad because G is known to be a spot on mfg. in all other endeavors.
PB
Lots of QC issues right now. TOS has an ongoing thread where several people have non functional guns, including me. I think the chambers are too tight. There’s also potential problems with their stand alone barrel gas port sizes. And I heard rumors of issues back in August, not much evidence on that but from a likely trustworthy source.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkRuh roh!
Lots of QC issues right now. TOS has an ongoing thread where several people have non functional guns, including me. I think the chambers are too tight. There’s also potential problems with their stand alone barrel gas port sizes. And I heard rumors of issues back in August, not much evidence on that but from a likely trustworthy source.
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Can confirm. I wasn’t going to mention it but I have a short chambered 14.5” G barrel. Sent it in, looks like they replaced it with a shorter chambered barrel as 55gr M193 would get jammed in it. Before only 77gr MK262Mod1 did.
That G upper currently has a used 16” carbine gas 6920 barrel in it and runs like a top. I broke my rule of only shooting Colt uppers and proved myself right again…
Have him get a Centurion and stop thinking about it.
I would suggest sionics, BCM, colt and SOLGW.
Cheers, Steve
Not sure why it obviously needs to be bought online but I’d just tell him to find a BCM with MCMR and ELW barrel.
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I have this exact rifle and it is excellent. I also just acquired a Larue PredaOBR and man, what an AR! The Larue is almost twice the BCM (although I got it used, never fired for a lot less). If I didn’t care about money, I’d get the Larue straight from them. But the BCM is a close second
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220708/8732f747198cb31a91b755b371f73abb.jpg
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"Top shelf" is going to be a KAC.
If he doesnt want that, it depends what he wants to do:
Does he want to sit at a bench and shoot far/small targets? A gun for HD, or an all-around gp rifle?
For something well-rounded and middle of the road, the colt, DD, and centurion are a great options. Both have very good bcgs and barrels.
Bcm is also great but I wasnt as impressed with the accuracy, though its well within "acceptable" accuracy.
To be fair, I may have just not tested it enough yet, but thats my current ranking.
I’m starting to think I bought a Unicorn G rifle. Mine is stupid accurate and gassed to perfection. I saw threads on Snipershide and one member pm’d me his troubles with his barrel being out of speck. It’s sad because G is known to be a spot on mfg. in all other endeavors.
PB
I bought one in November and my experience mirrors yours.
I bought one in November and my experience mirrors yours.
I assume the majority of their guns are great but there seems to be a significant minority having issues at the moment. Definitely a bummer because I’ve been watching The G SDs for years and finally gave in just to be disappointed.
To their credit, they seem to be responsive to the market. The black oxide barrels didn’t last too long really.
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titsonritz
07-08-22, 11:24
I would suggest sionics, BCM, colt and SOLGW.
Cheers, Steve
Add in Centurion Arms and you have the same line of horses in my stable, all five run like hell and I see no reason to expand.
Add in Centurion Arms and you have the same line of horses in my stable, all five run like hell and I see no reason to expand.
Another vote for Centurion Arms. Very well made, great barrels, and a wonderful company to do business with!
titsonritz
07-08-22, 11:35
"Top shelf" is going to be a KAC.
If I were to make an "upgrade" to my gas guns it would be a KAC or LMT 308/6.5CM.
That 6960 or a BCM MCMR ELWF would be choices for me. Keep it simple. Leave a bunch of money for mags, ammo, sling, and optic.
If you get the 6960 instead of a BCM, used the saved cash to get a nicer trigger, or even BCM’s PNT trigger.
And that rarest of all, training...
Add in Centurion Arms and you have the same line of horses in my stable, all five run like hell and I see no reason to expand.
This is the answer. All of those options are good. If I had to pick one, it'd probably be Centurion due to their barrels.
This is the answer. All of those options are good. If I had to pick one, it'd probably be Centurion due to their barrels.
What makes their barrels stand out so much? I'd like to read up on that more.
And that rarest of all, training...
^^^This. I watched my neighbor over the 4th who has had an AR for well over 5 years block the ejection port with the side of a barricade and cause a failure to eject.
^^^This. I watched my neighbor over the 4th who has had an AR for well over 5 years block the ejection port with the side of a barricade and cause a failure to eject.
That's not a training issue... that's a brain cell issue. Kinda like shooting your cover because the sights are over the bore line. Just dumb.
That's not a training issue... that's a brain cell issue. Kinda like shooting your cover because the sights are over the bore line. Just dumb.
Agreed, but that just takes actually utilizing your rifle and putting more than 30rds down range while sitting on a bench and then trusting your life with it. if you don't get out and train and figure out your capability and the rifles capability, then you're really not buying anything "Tier 1"
I wouldn't make that a priority.
I still favor chrome lining myself.
He wants a DI
This, this, and this. The whole "DI shits where it eats" thing is a non issue. The AR was designed to shit where it eats and it runs well doing so. A piston AR is a solution in search of a problem. I would go with a 5.56 chamber and a 1/7 chrome lined barrel unless he's trying to build a precision rifle.
This, this, and this. The whole "DI shits where it eats" thing is a non issue.
That was a comment from idiots who owned crappy ARs with gargantuan gas ports. Yes... completely Eff up the design, and it won't work as good. Unfortunately dumb asses can start gun manufacturing businesses and spec critical components retardedly.
OP here, I have found online to be way cheaper. My neibghor is not new to shooting, he is new to the AR platform.
You just about have to look online if you want to study then buy the top 5 rifles suggested. No gun store is going to stock more than 1 or 2 of these nice guns. If your lucky.
You have not even started on optics, God help you there Pal.
PB
There are a ton of good options. Personally, I always like buying an upper and then building my own lower, since I'm probably going to replace the trigger, put in a Radian ambidextrous safety, maybe put in an H1 or H2 buffer (depending on barrel length) and probably replace the pistol grip.
As for possible uppers (or complete rifles), I have a couple of DD uppers I've been very happy with. 100% reliable, accurate, and excellent barrels and rails. Recently bought an LMT upper and then separately an LMT ambidextrous lower, and it's the tits. I've always bee a big fan of LaRue, and he could get a nice UU and then build his own lower and be well under budget. Also, I know people are big fans of BCM and the one upper I have runs great, but it is probably the least accurate AR I own.
Ultimately, it really depends on your friends priorities. Great reliability - KAC/LMT. Accuracy - LaRue, or have WOA or CLE build you an upper and then attach it to the lower of your choice. Value - BCM or maybe LaRue UU kit.
Oh, and I see a lot of recommendations for SOLGW or Centurion, but have zero experience with either.
And that rarest of all, training...
Don't be silly. All ya gotta do is inhale the instant SME air when you open the box.
Don't be silly. All ya gotta do is inhale the instant SME air when you open the box.
New product idea: SME air freshener, one whiff and your LAV.
New product idea: SME air freshener, one whiff and your LAV.
That product already exists.
Don’t you operate BRO?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220709/42f0bd6329cf2321ec9b78e1473e3ccc.jpg
Oh, and I see a lot of recommendations for SOLGW or Centurion, but have zero experience with either.
I have a fair amount of experience with Centurion Arms (three complete rifles, half dozen lowers) but here is a very recent interview of the owner of Centurion Arms, retired Navy Seal Monty LeClair, if you would like to learn about Centurion Arms from the best possible source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVe8JK7rejA
I'm sure Centurion Arms live up to their reputation, but does anyone here have a link to an an "In Stock" supplier. After a half hour search on the internet, I found nobody that has anything in stock including the Centurion Arms website.
I'm sure Centurion Arms live up to their reputation, but does anyone here have a link to an an "In Stock" supplier. After a half hour search on the internet, I found nobody that has anything in stock including the Centurion Arms website.
CA has basically been a waitlist purchase the entire time they’ve been around. I can’t consider then anything more than a niche brand for that, so probably not the best bet for a new owner.
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Leonidas24
07-10-22, 01:36
I'm sure Centurion Arms live up to their reputation, but does anyone here have a link to an an "In Stock" supplier. After a half hour search on the internet, I found nobody that has anything in stock including the Centurion Arms website.
What are you after? Most barrels were in stock two days ago but some have sold out. Mid-weights and 14.5 SOCOMs are in stock. Monty and Corrie are pretty active on their FB group page, and always announce when a product is about to hit the website there.
https://www.primaryarms.com/lmt-defender-l-5-56-ar-15-rifle-30-round-16in
What makes their barrels stand out so much? I'd like to read up on that more.
1. They have a reputation for reliability and correct chamber
2. They have a reputation for accuracy, around what you would expect from Colt
3. Hammer forged LW and mid wt available
4. Not sure if it actually helps anything, but they CL their barrels to 2x the thickness commonly used in other barrels.
1. They have a reputation for reliability and correct chamber
2. They have a reputation for accuracy, around what you would expect from Colt
3. Hammer forged LW and mid wt available
4. Not sure if it actually helps anything, but they CL their barrels to 2x the thickness commonly used in other barrels.
Good to know. Is that above and beyond comparable brands in their $ point? #4 sounds above and beyond.
Adrenaline_6
07-11-22, 15:32
Sionics is another to consider.
indianalex01
07-11-22, 22:17
This, this, and this. The whole "DI shits where it eats" thing is a non issue. The AR was designed to shit where it eats and it runs well doing so. A piston AR is a solution in search of a problem. I would go with a 5.56 chamber and a 1/7 chrome lined barrel unless he's trying to build a precision rifle.
Huh?? Nobody brought up a piston AR. Pistons excel with suppressors. They are better then an AR only in that way in my opinion. Nobody brought up the shits where it eats. You post is so 7 years ago. No need to go there in this thread
indianalex01
07-11-22, 22:19
There are a ton of good options. Personally, I always like buying an upper and then building my own lower, since I'm probably going to replace the trigger, put in a Radian ambidextrous safety, maybe put in an H1 or H2 buffer (depending on barrel length) and probably replace the pistol grip.
As for possible uppers (or complete rifles), I have a couple of DD uppers I've been very happy with. 100% reliable, accurate, and excellent barrels and rails. Recently bought an LMT upper and then separately an LMT ambidextrous lower, and it's the tits. I've always bee a big fan of LaRue, and he could get a nice UU and then build his own lower and be well under budget. Also, I know people are big fans of BCM and the one upper I have runs great, but it is probably the least accurate AR I own.
Ultimately, it really depends on your friends priorities. Great reliability - KAC/LMT. Accuracy - LaRue, or have WOA or CLE build you an upper and then attach it to the lower of your choice. Value - BCM or maybe LaRue UU kit.
Oh, and I see a lot of recommendations for SOLGW or Centurion, but have zero experience with either.
BCM has always had Accuracy issues. It’s a common theme with them. Also out of spec gas ports.
Outlander Systems
07-12-22, 07:48
OP, below you will find my recommendation:
https://i.ibb.co/PYdgv5J/84-DD6-E3-B-BDD9-4-E87-A99-D-D2314044-C381.jpg
Not only is it the perfect intersection of price/performance, but it will make the haters cope, seethe and dilate.
I have a neighbor that wants to get his first AR15 in 556. He is willing to spend $2000+ on the AR.
BCM has always had Accuracy issues. It’s a common theme with them. Also out of spec gas ports.
Talk about someone shit posting. 2moa groups are not accuracy issues. They’re not as tight as some brands but that’s far from an issue. And larger gas ports that allow performance in a variety of conditions with differing ammo is not out of spec. They use basically the same size ports as SOLGW and people love them, it’s just that SOLGW has deliberately stated they’re not playing with smaller gas ports because they’re choosing “combat reliability.” Your post reeks of sensationalism.
OP, below you will find my recommendation:
https://i.ibb.co/PYdgv5J/84-DD6-E3-B-BDD9-4-E87-A99-D-D2314044-C381.jpg
Not only is it the perfect intersection of price/performance, but it will make the haters cope, seethe and dilate.
You heathen bitch.
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I have a neighbor that wants to get his first AR15 in 556. He is willing to spend $2000+ on the AR. I am knowable on AR's, but I have older knowledge, not the information for newer AR's that are available on the market today. He is looking for a tier1 AR with a 16 inch barrel, with a threaded flash hider. I told him reliability and accuracy should be the main requirements with his purchase.
I told him to to get a 1/8 WYLDE barrel, also a 2 stage trigger, with a M16 bolt carrier, with a CHF, or nitrated barrel. I am not sure if he would wants a DI, or pistol gas system. What is available in the market today? He wants to eventually put an ACOG on this AR.
Please give me some recommendations on what features he should consider. Obviously the AR15 should be available to be bought online. I don't want to steer him wrong. Buy once, and buy right.
Thanks in advance(y)
Huh?? Nobody brought up a piston AR. Pistons excel with suppressors. They are better then an AR only in that way in my opinion. Nobody brought up the shits where it eats. You post is so 7 years ago. No need to go there in this thread
The OP brought up piston. There’s a typo in the post that has it written as “pistol gas system” but everyone else in this thread was able to recognize that he meant piston since he was directly comparing it to DI.
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Outlander Systems
07-12-22, 09:49
:lol:
You heathen bitch.
BCM has always had Accuracy issues. It’s a common theme with them. Also out of spec gas ports.
Absolutely false in my/our experience. Not that I haven't read that others have had complaints. But I guarantee every BCM we've had will shoot MOA with OTMs. We check EVERY gun we run for accuracy.
titsonritz
07-12-22, 11:24
BCM has always had Accuracy issues. It’s a common theme with them. Also out of spec gas ports.
Not sure how you have something out of spec when there isn't a spec, but my sample size of (2) 14.5" BCM mid-lengths are plenty accurate and the one I pin gaged is .076" which I find very reasonable.
What are you after? Most barrels were in stock two days ago but some have sold out. Mid-weights and 14.5 SOCOMs are in stock. Monty and Corrie are pretty active on their FB group page, and always announce when a product is about to hit the website there.
I was looking for a complete Centurion Arms AR that was in stock in order to pass the link on to the OP of this thread. We all know how it goes when you get an itch to delve into your first foray of the AR15/M4 galactic entity! :cool:
Absolutely false in my/our experience. Not that I haven't read that others have had complaints. But I guarantee every BCM we've had will shoot MOA with OTMs. We check EVERY gun we run for accuracy.
And everyone else I ever spoke to. He's the first who has claimed BCM anything but GTG all day I have seen.
But, you have people on the other big forum who will tell you Colt is the biggest POS on the market, Shlubmaster etc as good or better. :stop:
And everyone else I ever spoke to. He's the first who has claimed BCM anything but GTG all day I have seen.
I guess when you're around long enough, every company gets a derangement cult. I'd guess in 5-10 years, there'll be a bunch of SOLGW and SIONIC hating loons claiming they never build a gun in spec ever too.
Absolutely false in my/our experience. Not that I haven't read that others have had complaints. But I guarantee every BCM we've had will shoot MOA with OTMs. We check EVERY gun we run for accuracy.
Other than their specialty match-grade barrels I've never heard anyone claim superior accuracy out of BCM barrels. Typical feedback is "okay, about average". Meaning around 2-3 MOA with various ammo including match grade. Some barrels shoot slightly better with a particular match ammo, some shoot worse with any ammo.
With a few exceptions people claim not just better, but far superior accuracy out of Colt, Noveske, Geissele, and KAC barrels with many types of ammo vs BCM.
I don't think that 2-3 MOA out of any barrel is bad, but far too many reports from experienced folks of a much worse accuracy is the only thing which kept me away from buying BCM complete upper or their barrels.
Other than their specialty match-grade barrels I've never heard anyone claim superior accuracy out of BCM barrels. Typical feedback is "okay, about average". Meaning around 2-3 MOA with various ammo including match grade. Some barrels shoot slightly better with a particular match ammo, some shoot worse with any ammo.
With a few exceptions people claim not just better, but far superior accuracy out of Colt, Noveske, Geissele, and KAC barrels with many types of ammo vs BCM.
We've had one great Colt... a 6940, I think. Noveske has NEVER shot a damned bit better than any other major maker out there. Just on par, but no where near the hype and premium they used to command. The KAC gun we have shoots really good. The Geissele gun we have is incredible... I'm talking regular sub MOA groups as low as half with some loads.
That said We've NEVER had a BCM that wasn't, at a minimum 1.5" MOA in it's worst group. We'd get rid of a barrel that won't hold sub 2 MOA without hesitation. We've never dumped a BCM barrel ever.
OutofBatt3ry
07-13-22, 19:30
This is a really, really good deal for a great Tier-1 rifle. ^
Who makes the barrel? I assume not CHF. That's still my recommendation if one has zero intention of messing with the bones of the gun.
If you can turn a wrench and like to mess with guns, just build one.
Any "in-spec" receiver set with a DD barrel and quality BCG+ trigger = "Tier 1"
Barrel, trigger, bolt...the rest just has to hold it up.
Who makes the barrel? I assume not CHF. That's still my recommendation if one has zero intention of messing with the bones of the gun.
If you can turn a wrench and like to mess with guns, just build one.
Any "in-spec" receiver set with a DD barrel and quality BCG+ trigger = "Tier 1"
Barrel, trigger, bolt...the rest just has to hold it up.
Colt, so I would also assume not chf.
constructor
07-14-22, 08:55
I have a neighbor that wants to get his first AR15 in 556. He is willing to spend $2000+ on the AR. I am knowable on AR's, but I have older knowledge, not the information for newer AR's that are available on the market today. He is looking for a tier1 AR with a 16 inch barrel, with a threaded flash hider. I told him reliability and accuracy should be the main requirements with his purchase.
I told him to to get a 1/8 WYLDE barrel, also a 2 stage trigger, with a M16 bolt carrier, with a CHF, or nitrated barrel. I am not sure if he would wants a DI, or pistol gas system. What is available in the market today? He wants to eventually put an ACOG on this AR.
Please give me some recommendations on what features he should consider. Obviously the AR15 should be available to be bought online. I don't want to steer him wrong. Buy once, and buy right.
Thanks in advance(y)
If he wants accuracy a Nitride treated barrel will usually be more accurate than chrome. If he wants accuracy a Wylde or 5.56CLE (Compass Lake Eng)chamber will usually be more accurate than the 5.56. 8 twist also a good choice but try to find one that is not a 6 groove, 5R or 4 groove usually meet the bore area spec where most 6 grooves have less bore area than the spec. 2 stage trigger also good idea for accuracy.
What most guys here think of as tier 1 "operator" rifles will probably not have those features. He should probably build what he wants.
Most military ammo is not accurate, m193, 855 or mk318 will not produce good results, 77gr Razorcore seems to produce better groups. If he reloads try 24.7gr H335 with 62gr Gold dots, that is the FBI load. 69gr SMKs with 24.5gr RE15 or Varget in a Wylde chamber should get you 5/8-3/4" groups at 100 pretty easy.
On the other hand if he plans on taking a bunch of carbine classes, just buy a BCM or DD, he doesn't need accuracy.
BCM has always had Accuracy issues. It’s a common theme with them. Also out of spec gas ports.
This actually came up a couple years ago due to reports from TOS about 4"-6" accuracy out of BCM barrels. I posted a pic of target groups out of my BCM lightweight chrome lined 16" midlength 1/7 barrel, I was getting just over 1.5" groups with 77gr SMK factory loads. Other guys started posting pics of their groups with BCM barrels, most were 1.5" to 2" then someone complained and the mods shut down the thread. BCM barrels shoot just fine.
BCM barrels shoot just fine.
No doubt. I don't know what brought on the BCM derangement syndrome. BCM has never been unkind to their customer base, cops, mil, etc.
No doubt. I don't know what brought on the BCM derangement syndrome.
I've heard of issues with BCM, and then them taken care of whatever issues have arisen, I have had personally had issue with DD, ADM, Aero and PSA all of them save PSA were taken care of correctly and right away. I still think for a person looking for a battle ready rifle for the money a BCM upper on an Aero lower for around $1-1.2k does the trick better than most.
Coal Dragger
07-14-22, 16:25
I suspect 99.9% of the guys complaining about precision of most known well made rifles or carbines:
1.) Shooter is not capable of shooting well enough to make that evaluation.
2.) They insist on using known garbage ammo that doesn’t perform well in anything. Somehow they think an expensive gun will magically make Winchester white box XM193 shoot MOA….
3.) They don’t have a real bench rest or rear bag, or other stability aid.
4.) They are trying to evaluate accuracy potential using inappropriate sighting equipment for precision testing.
5.) They have wildly unrealistic expectations of the equipment. For example expecting a gun made for duty use to shoot like a Camp Perry DCM rifle, yet still be lightweight and super reliable.
6.) All of the above.
I suspect 99.9% of the guys complaining about precision of most known well made rifles or carbines:
1.) Shooter is not capable of shooting well enough to make that evaluation.
2.) They insist on using known garbage ammo that doesn’t perform well in anything. Somehow they think an expensive gun will magically make Winchester white box XM193 shoot MOA….
3.) They don’t have a real bench rest or rear bag, or other stability aid.
4.) They are trying to evaluate accuracy potential using inappropriate sighting equipment for precision testing.
5.) They have wildly unrealistic expectations of the equipment. For example expecting a gun made for duty use to shoot like a Camp Perry DCM rifle, yet still be lightweight and super reliable.
6.) All of the above.
This.
I suspect 99.9% of the guys complaining about precision of most known well made rifles or carbines:
1.) Shooter is not capable of shooting well enough to make that evaluation.
2.) They insist on using known garbage ammo that doesn’t perform well in anything. Somehow they think an expensive gun will magically make Winchester white box XM193 shoot MOA….
3.) They don’t have a real bench rest or rear bag, or other stability aid.
4.) They are trying to evaluate accuracy potential using inappropriate sighting equipment for precision testing.
5.) They have wildly unrealistic expectations of the equipment. For example expecting a gun made for duty use to shoot like a Camp Perry DCM rifle, yet still be lightweight and super reliable.
6.) All of the above.
I have done all the above, had meh groups, but was perfectly aware that was the reason vs claiming the rifle was the problem.
Coal Dragger
07-14-22, 17:43
The difference is you understand the reality of the variables you aren’t controlling for, or attempting to mitigate affecting your results.
I guess I could complain that my KAC SR-15 won’t shoot sub MOA groups at 200 yards with an Aimpoint Comp M5 on top and IMI M855. However as we both understand that’s not a combination of ammo and optic that will reliably accomplish that feat for anyone, in any barrel.
I suspect 99.9% of the guys complaining about precision of most known well made rifles or carbines:
1.) Shooter is not capable of shooting well enough to make that evaluation.
2.) They insist on using known garbage ammo that doesn’t perform well in anything. Somehow they think an expensive gun will magically make Winchester white box XM193 shoot MOA….
3.) They don’t have a real bench rest or rear bag, or other stability aid.
4.) They are trying to evaluate accuracy potential using inappropriate sighting equipment for precision testing.
5.) They have wildly unrealistic expectations of the equipment. For example expecting a gun made for duty use to shoot like a Camp Perry DCM rifle, yet still be lightweight and super reliable.
6.) All of the above.
All this. Ive also had a reality check that LR skills > "accuracy". My 1.5 moa gun can hit a c zone at 650 every time. If I miss, its because I mis read the wind or had 1 of many possible user-errors.
The difference is you understand the reality of the variables you aren’t controlling for, or attempting to mitigate affecting your results.
I guess I could complain that my KAC SR-15 won’t shoot sub MOA groups at 200 yards with an Aimpoint Comp M5 on top and IMI M855. However as we both understand that’s not a combination of ammo and optic that will reliably accomplish that feat for anyone, in any barrel.
I remember shortly after I got out of the Marines, I shot at a 10 inch plate at 500 yards with 3x Burris prism and 55gr Wolf Gold and I kept missing every other round, I couldn't figure it out until you realize that the 500 yard "Dog" target I used to shoot at was 19" tall by 26" wide, thats a massive difference and I was so naive in thinking I could just repeat the same results without the same input
Coal Dragger
07-14-22, 18:48
Can a guy get reliable hits on a 10” steel plate at 500 with a decent quality duty grade gun? Yes, absolutely. The right sighting equipment and ammo better be in play though. I’d want at least 6X magnification, and 69gr or 77gr match ammo to make it happen, plus a good rest or bipod/rear bag combo, or some other way to get as stable as possible. Even then holding under 2.0 MOA will still take a lot of skill accounting for wind, and variables in your position.
Can a guy get reliable hits on a 10” steel plate at 500 with a decent quality duty grade gun? Yes, absolutely. The right sighting equipment and ammo better be in play though. I’d want at least 6X magnification, and 69gr or 77gr match ammo to make it happen, plus a good rest or bipod/rear bag combo, or some other way to get as stable as possible. Even then holding under 2.0 MOA will still take a lot of skill accounting for wind, and variables in your position.
Oh you totally can, its sorta easy when the target is large and you have a better sighting system and rifle coach right next to you. I'm also saying that I thought I knew everything as after 4+ years in the military when in reality I didn't know much. I took a pistol one course on Monday and learned something even though I have already taken pretty much the same course from the same instructor a few years ago. Buying a tier 1 rifle is great, expanding your knowledge and capabilities is a better option, ie Indian before the arrow.
Coal Dragger
07-14-22, 19:49
Correct.
I suspect 99.9% of the guys complaining about precision of most known well made rifles or carbines:
1.) Shooter is not capable of shooting well enough to make that evaluation.
2.) They insist on using known garbage ammo that doesn’t perform well in anything. Somehow they think an expensive gun will magically make Winchester white box XM193 shoot MOA….
3.) They don’t have a real bench rest or rear bag, or other stability aid.
4.) They are trying to evaluate accuracy potential using inappropriate sighting equipment for precision testing.
5.) They have wildly unrealistic expectations of the equipment. For example expecting a gun made for duty use to shoot like a Camp Perry DCM rifle, yet still be lightweight and super reliable.
6.) All of the above.
Yup. When I started trying to diagnose what turned out to be a faulty Noveske barrel, I learned quick not to believe shit about group sizes online unless photos were present.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Coal Dragger
07-14-22, 23:23
I remember that, didn’t you have chrome lining flaking off?
I remember that, didn’t you have chrome lining flaking off?
Sure did. And it really opened my eyes to all of the little things that need to go into producing tight groups before you just blame the gun. I got a bipod, rear bag, various types of ammo, and still had trouble across a few platforms. That’s when I started figuring out that all of the 1 MOA with an RDS claims were probably bullshit and so I started looking into magnification and targets that I could see a repeatable POA at 100m with that magnification. And even with all of that, ammo plays a much bigger role at 100m then the Internet had previously lead me to believe.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Redsoxnation
07-21-22, 15:20
Just go with a simple Windham Arms 16 inch AR. Then use the rest for ammo, irons and possible red dot.
I always recommend novice shooters with Windam or Colt. Both great entry level firearms and the prices are solid.
Just go with a simple Windham Arms 16 inch AR. Then use the rest for ammo, irons and possible red dot.
I always recommend novice shooters with Windam or Colt. Both great entry level firearms and the prices are solid.
Windham though?
titsonritz
07-21-22, 21:19
Windham though?
None for me, thanks.
None for me, thanks.I mean... I would take a Wingham over a DPMS... I guess.
Outlander Systems
07-21-22, 21:50
What fresh hell is this?
Just go with a simple Windham Arms 16 inch AR. Then use the rest for ammo, irons and possible red dot.
I always recommend novice shooters with Windam or Colt. Both great entry level firearms and the prices are solid.
Redsoxnation
07-21-22, 22:24
Windham though?
Sure why not. The price is good and they are solid IMO for entry level without breaking the bank.
indianalex01
07-21-22, 22:33
I mean... I would take a Wingham over a DPMS... I guess.
Shit for shit.. I guess.
ODgreenpizza
07-22-22, 00:23
Daniel Defense rifles are pretty nice and widely available.
Daniel Defense rifles are pretty nice and widely available.
But the support gun control...hard pass.
Sure why not. The price is good and they are solid IMO for entry level without breaking the bank.
Because they are bottom tier trash. There is a cringe worthy video of their manufacturing process floating around.
The OP is looking for a high quality gun.
Sure why not. The price is good and they are solid IMO for entry level without breaking the bank.
You're new here so I'll give you a free pass. However, read and respond to the flipping OP, he asked for TIER1, not entry level.
Outlander Systems
07-22-22, 08:44
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG5IK04I0hc
Because they are bottom tier trash. There is a cringe worthy video of their manufacturing process floating around.
The OP is looking for a high quality gun.
Absolutely false in my/our experience. Not that I haven't read that others have had complaints. But I guarantee every BCM we've had will shoot MOA with OTMs. We check EVERY gun we run for accuracy.
Same experience.
1.5 MOA groups with 14.5” BCM at 100 yds (dial in yesterday) with 77 gr OTM and 2MOA Red Dot.
MOA with LPVO.
LMAO. Isn't Windham the old Bushmaster?
Five_Point_Five_Six
07-25-22, 19:35
Just go with a simple Windham Arms 16 inch AR. Then use the rest for ammo, irons and possible red dot.
I always recommend novice shooters with Windam or Colt. Both great entry level firearms and the prices are solid.
It's July 2022. Nobody should buy a Windham and there's no reason to place irons above a quality optic.
titsonritz
07-25-22, 19:42
LMAO. Isn't Windham the old Bushmaster?
IG always called them Shrubcrappers and didn't have anything good to say about them.
IG always called them Shrubcrappers and didn't have anything good to say about them.
Hahahaha, that sounds like IG alright.
danieljmaunder
07-26-22, 07:55
Purchase a rifle of quality manufacture. BCM, and SOLGW, make quality guns, and different models have different price points. Get a rifle from one of those brands that fits your price point, put a decent optic on it, buy some ammo and take some classes. I generally recommend staying away from building on your first one cause it can be hard for newer guys to differentiate quality parts kits from cheap crap that wont run.
OP, your friend seeks a KAC SR-15. Second choices include BCM, Colt, DD, and some of the others mentioned here. But maybe not Windham.
I suspect 99.9% of the guys complaining about precision of most known well made rifles or carbines:
1.) Shooter is not capable of shooting well enough to make that evaluation.
2.) They insist on using known garbage ammo that doesn’t perform well in anything. Somehow they think an expensive gun will magically make Winchester white box XM193 shoot MOA….
3.) They don’t have a real bench rest or rear bag, or other stability aid.
4.) They are trying to evaluate accuracy potential using inappropriate sighting equipment for precision testing.
5.) They have wildly unrealistic expectations of the equipment. For example expecting a gun made for duty use to shoot like a Camp Perry DCM rifle, yet still be lightweight and super reliable.
6.) All of the above.
So much this.
I’m guilty of #3 and #4, because I’m generally happy with 2-2.5 moa. Because the targets I shoot at 500 are generally around 3.5moa, I shoot mediocre (but not garbage) ammo, and I’m using a 4x. I also don’t do #3 and #4 and then go whining on the internet.
Comparing groups on the internet frequently lead to #5. Especially when the poster doesn’t mention sample size. #2 never ceases to amaze me, especially the guys that say “M193” or “M855” and really mean a commercial lookalike and don’t acknowledge it. #1 should be no surprise.
Good post.
Outlander. Dudebro. C’mon man. Do better.
Shit for shit.. I guess.
Why must any disagreement quickly turn into an insult?
Especially when the person insulted is a helpful (helped me at least twice) and easy going??
Same experience.
1.5 MOA groups with 14.5” BCM at 100 yds (dial in yesterday) with 77 gr OTM and 2MOA Red Dot.
MOA with LPVO.
Agreed; on demand. I run my BCM upper on on lower I had Rainer Arms built for me and it’s a solid shooter.
titsonritz
07-26-22, 20:09
Why must any disagreement quickly turn into an insult?
Especially when the person insulted is a helpful (helped me at least twice) and easy going??
Posting on the internet "Wingham over a DPMS" is "Shit for shit.. I guess" is insulting someone? Sounds like someone should go find a safe place or grow a little skin.
If I had to run away to the hills and could carry only one AR, it would be my KAC. I have others that are just fine, and I don't fanboy, but it shoots and recoils smoothly, balances nicely, and shoots sub MOA (LPR upper, but still).
It sort of seems like the top tier of ARs on the market has been pretty steady for several years. Only SOLGW seems to be stirring up the pile. Radian maybe? I have no experience with them, but it seems reassuring in a way that the people we thought built good guns for the money are keeping that reputation intact, no?
Posting on the internet "Wingham over a DPMS" is "Shit for shit.. I guess" is insulting someone? Sounds like someone should go find a safe place or grow a little skin.
It’s not skin. It’s basic manners. One notch below polite. Haven’t seen anyone take any damage from utilizing them. Cheers.
Hammer_Man
08-09-22, 12:27
I’ve been impressed with Windham Weaponry. Their A2 barrel I used for one of my builds was 4150 steel, and performed great for me. Every one of their guns I’ve picked up seemed to be manufactured with to a higher degree of quality than other guns in their price range. I’ve seen new CR6920s that look like shit compared to anything I’ve seen Windham put out.
I’ve seen new CR6920s that look like shit compared to anything I’ve seen Windham put out.
You will have to do better than that, that's the kind of comment normally heard from AR newbies trying to differentiate between products without knowing what matters and what doesn't.
I pretty much ignore people who make comments about AR fit and finish like they're looking at a Remington 700.
Not saying that there aren't tangible fit and finish issues to look for, I've seen issues with castings and forgings, chrome plating on bolt carrier groups, FSB/gas block alignment, etc.
If you articulated that the trigger had a lot more flash on it, that the lower was visibly out of square, had blotchy andonizing, etc, that would have more credibility.
I'm not saying that Wyndham is junk just that:
1. they were late to the AR game, and initial products did not have quality components.
2. whatever DNA they got from Bushmaster is not viewed as quality due to some very specific history that Bushmaster had
3. Price point wise you can do a lot better for the money. Where better is defined as tangible, confirmable construction and component differences.
Hammer_Man
08-12-22, 03:35
You will have to do better than that, that's the kind of comment normally heard from AR newbies trying to differentiate between products without knowing what matters and what doesn't.
I pretty much ignore people who make comments about AR fit and finish like they're looking at a Remington 700.
Not saying that there aren't tangible fit and finish issues to look for, I've seen issues with castings and forgings, chrome plating on bolt carrier groups, FSB/gas block alignment, etc.
If you articulated that the trigger had a lot more flash on it, that the lower was visibly out of square, had blotchy andonizing, etc, that would have more credibility.
I'm not saying that Wyndham is junk just that:
1. they were late to the AR game, and initial products did not have quality components.
2. whatever DNA they got from Bushmaster is not viewed as quality due to some very specific history that Bushmaster had
3. Price point wise you can do a lot better for the money. Where better is defined as tangible, confirmable construction and component differences.
That’s the kind of comment normally heard from the Neo Fudds (“but muh Colts are the bestest, so they get a pass when they churn out crap”) who are trying to differentiate between products without recognizing that time and technology have moved on. Colt these days is just another parts bin assembler, who outsources their parts to the same companies everyone else outsources their parts to. The only thing they have over other basic bitch M-forgeries is a 1-7 twist barrel.
Whatever DNA Colt got from the mil-contract days is all dried up, as they don’t have that contract anymore.
I’ll articulate this: My duty weapon is a new Colt (delivered 2 years ago), and it came with a barrel nut that was not timed properly, causing the KAC (P&S) rail to be crooked.
Colt isn’t the Golden God of AR-15s anymore.
1.) Who cares if they were late to the game? Furthermore I don’t care what Windham did ten years ago when they first started, because currently they use Mil-B 11595E 4150 steel for their barrels, and MPI C158 or 9310 for their bolts, and 7075 receivers. That’s all pretty much industry standard. The 20” Mil-B 11595E 4150 1x7 Windham barrel I used ran flawlessly for me. I would expect their 14.5” Mil-B 11595E 4150 1x7 barrel to perform equally as well.
2.) I don’t care what Bushmaster did over 10 years ago either.
3.) Name a complete AR-15 that retails for $850.00 that has tangible, confirmable construction, and component differences to make it better than what Windham currently produces.
If you’re going to suggest that spending an extra $300.00 to get another parts bin special CR6920 is money well spent, I will disagree. If you’re going to jump up in price you can do a lot better than the Colt for the money. For example a SOLGW Patrol sells for about the same money as the Colt, and I would expect that to be a much better gun given SOLGW’s reputation for quality. Would I suggest to the average buyer that they purchase a SOLGW Patrol over a Windham MPC if they have the money?? You bet!! I consider that an extra $300-$400 well spent. Would I say the same about spending the extra $300 on a CR6920? No I wouldn’t, because I don’t think a CR6920 offers anything significant over the $850.00 Windham other than a 1x7 twist barrel, and nostalgic engravings.
I have to admit I used to drink the Colt Koolaid, but time has moved on. The gap that used to separate Colt from the rest isn’t as wide as it used to be. Colt cult Neo Fudds..
What is a parts bin special?
What ar is not that?
What is a parts bin special?
What ar is not that?
Centurion. They make their barrels, rails, uppers and lowers in house. To name one. Pretty sure DD is close to the same as well. There are others but these are the ones that immediately come to mind
indianalex01
08-12-22, 11:35
That’s the kind of comment normally heard from the Neo Fudds (“but muh Colts are the bestest, so they get a pass when they churn out crap”) who are trying to differentiate between products without recognizing that time and technology have moved on. Colt these days is just another parts bin assembler, who outsources their parts to the same companies everyone else outsources their parts to. The only thing they have over other basic bitch M-forgeries is a 1-7 twist barrel.
Whatever DNA Colt got from the mil-contract days is all dried up, as they don’t have that contract anymore.
I’ll articulate this: My duty weapon is a new Colt (delivered 2 years ago), and it came with a barrel nut that was not timed properly, causing the KAC (P&S) rail to be crooked.
Colt isn’t the Golden God of AR-15s anymore.
1.) Who cares if they were late to the game? Furthermore I don’t care what Windham did ten years ago when they first started, because currently they use Mil-B 11595E 4150 steel for their barrels, and MPI C158 or 9310 for their bolts, and 7075 receivers. That’s all pretty much industry standard. The 20” Mil-B 11595E 4150 1x7 Windham barrel I used ran flawlessly for me. I would expect their 14.5” Mil-B 11595E 4150 1x7 barrel to perform equally as well.
2.) I don’t care what Bushmaster did over 10 years ago either.
3.) Name a complete AR-15 that retails for $850.00 that has tangible, confirmable construction, and component differences to make it better than what Windham currently produces.
If you’re going to suggest that spending an extra $300.00 to get another parts bin special CR6920 is money well spent, I will disagree. If you’re going to jump up in price you can do a lot better than the Colt for the money. For example a SOLGW Patrol sells for about the same money as the Colt, and I would expect that to be a much better gun given SOLGW’s reputation for quality. Would I suggest to the average buyer that they purchase a SOLGW Patrol over a Windham MPC if they have the money?? You bet!! I consider that an extra $300-$400 well spent. Would I say the same about spending the extra $300 on a CR6920? No I wouldn’t, because I don’t think a CR6920 offers anything significant over the $850.00 Windham other than a 1x7 twist barrel, and nostalgic engravings.
I have to admit I used to drink the Colt Koolaid, but time has moved on. The gap that used to separate Colt from the rest isn’t as wide as it used to be. Colt cult Neo Fudds..
Did you have a bad day? You really hate colt. Colts are still made well. Outsourcing parts? Yea the do some of that but are made to spec. Most companies do this. Even your Gods gift to the world SOLGW which you fail to mention.
Colt still has contracts all over the world. To include U.S. not at the level of during the war obviously. You actually had a pretty good post going but damn your bias was just over the top. Don’t post disinformation either. You say Colts suck now. I have not seen this. I see them shot full auto and they run just like they always have. I don’t get into freaking roll marks and all that BS. I am a shooter. Colts run. I am an LMT guy personally but Colts is no slouch.
indianalex01
08-12-22, 11:36
If I had to run away to the hills and could carry only one AR, it would be my KAC. I have others that are just fine, and I don't fanboy, but it shoots and recoils smoothly, balances nicely, and shoots sub MOA (LPR upper, but still).
It sort of seems like the top tier of ARs on the market has been pretty steady for several years. Only SOLGW seems to be stirring up the pile. Radian maybe? I have no experience with them, but it seems reassuring in a way that the people we thought built good guns for the money are keeping that reputation intact, no?
I would roll an LMT but would feel just as protected with a Colt or Sig MCX, 516
That’s the kind of comment normally heard from the Neo Fudds (“but muh Colts are the bestest, so they get a pass when they churn out crap”) who are trying to differentiate between products without recognizing that time and technology have moved on. Colt these days is just another parts bin assembler, who outsources their parts to the same companies everyone else outsources their parts to. The only thing they have over other basic bitch M-forgeries is a 1-7 twist barrel.
Whatever DNA Colt got from the mil-contract days is all dried up, as they don’t have that contract anymore.
I’ll articulate this: My duty weapon is a new Colt (delivered 2 years ago), and it came with a barrel nut that was not timed properly, causing the KAC (P&S) rail to be crooked.
Colt isn’t the Golden God of AR-15s anymore.
1.) Who cares if they were late to the game? Furthermore I don’t care what Windham did ten years ago when they first started, because currently they use Mil-B 11595E 4150 steel for their barrels, and MPI C158 or 9310 for their bolts, and 7075 receivers. That’s all pretty much industry standard. The 20” Mil-B 11595E 4150 1x7 Windham barrel I used ran flawlessly for me. I would expect their 14.5” Mil-B 11595E 4150 1x7 barrel to perform equally as well.
2.) I don’t care what Bushmaster did over 10 years ago either.
3.) Name a complete AR-15 that retails for $850.00 that has tangible, confirmable construction, and component differences to make it better than what Windham currently produces.
If you’re going to suggest that spending an extra $300.00 to get another parts bin special CR6920 is money well spent, I will disagree. If you’re going to jump up in price you can do a lot better than the Colt for the money. For example a SOLGW Patrol sells for about the same money as the Colt, and I would expect that to be a much better gun given SOLGW’s reputation for quality. Would I suggest to the average buyer that they purchase a SOLGW Patrol over a Windham MPC if they have the money?? You bet!! I consider that an extra $300-$400 well spent. Would I say the same about spending the extra $300 on a CR6920? No I wouldn’t, because I don’t think a CR6920 offers anything significant over the $850.00 Windham other than a 1x7 twist barrel, and nostalgic engravings.
I have to admit I used to drink the Colt Koolaid, but time has moved on. The gap that used to separate Colt from the rest isn’t as wide as it used to be. Colt cult Neo Fudds..
I'm not sure where you're getting the extra $300 figure because you can get a 6920 for $999 or an OEM for $799 right now in stock at AU. It'd be tough to go wrong taking that route for a first time AR purchase.
It's been five weeks since the OP put in the original post. It would be nice to have an update to see if his neighbor has made a decision one way or another. Just so the bickering can end and we can move on.
That’s the kind of comment normally heard from the Neo Fudds (“but muh Colts are the bestest, so they get a pass when they churn out crap”) who are trying to differentiate between products without recognizing that time and technology have moved on. Colt these days is just another parts bin assembler, who outsources their parts to the same companies everyone else outsources their parts to. The only thing they have over other basic bitch M-forgeries is a 1-7 twist barrel.
Whatever DNA Colt got from the mil-contract days is all dried up, as they don’t have that contract anymore.
I’ll articulate this: My duty weapon is a new Colt (delivered 2 years ago), and it came with a barrel nut that was not timed properly, causing the KAC (P&S) rail to be crooked.
Wow, you certainly put a lot of words in my mouth. And I'm a neo-fudd now, that's a new one.
My reply was about your fit and finish comment... Which outside of a few areas that I listed is pretty subjective and usually a sign of someone who's not very informed on what matters on ARs and what doesn't.
You kind of tipped your "just as good as" hand when you said they were mil-spec but also said that they sometimes use 9310 for bolts.
I'm not completely anti-9310, many Grendel bolts are made from it for some specific reasons. But as Bill Alexander said, you live or die by the heat treat.
But for 223/556 it's not mil-spec if it's not c158 and several other things.
Do I entirely trust CR colts? No, though I still believe they're probably better than many alternatives.
But when you can get pre-CR Colt oems for 750 to 800 bucks it's kind of an easy button.
Wyndham maybe veering towards a better mil spec type rifle, but they're early variants were not and there's not a lot of trust there.
For what it's worth, your KAC barrel nut timing issue would not be a mil-spec issue. If the nut allows the gas tube to go through cleanly and not contact it it's fine. But could be a few degrees off.
I view that as more of a KAC design issue then a colt mfg defect to. But it would be easily corrected, less than 5 minutes.
If the original question is still open, the person has or can can get a good quality lower…I ran into this LaRue Tactical sale and got one for myself; 16” 5.56 LaRue Upper for $749
https://www.larue.com/products/larue-ultimate-ar-15-upper/
http://i.imgur.com/l1iZD7l.jpg
LaRue Complete AR-15 Match Grade Upper
“…a complete, ready-to-shoot-extremely-small-groups LaRue 16” 5.56 LaRue Upper for $749 …drop this LaRue upper on your any-brand AR-15 lower, toss on a magnified scope, use match ammo or your own handloads, and easily shoot under 1-inch groups at 100 yards…. using this same 16” barrel profile… 20 rifles averaged just over 0.400 moa using Hornady 75gr BTHP Match ammo.”
SPECS:
Caliber: 5.56 x 45 mm NATO
Barrel Lengths: 16.1”,
Rifling Twist Rate: 1/8
Barrel Life: 10,000
Gas System: Direct Impingement
Hammer_Man
08-15-22, 15:03
Wow, you certainly put a lot of words in my mouth. And I'm a neo-fudd now, that's a new one.
My reply was about your fit and finish comment... Which outside of a few areas that I listed is pretty subjective and usually a sign of someone who's not very informed on what matters on ARs and what doesn't.
You kind of tipped your "just as good as" hand when you said they were mil-spec but also said that they sometimes use 9310 for bolts.
I'm not completely anti-9310, many Grendel bolts are made from it for some specific reasons. But as Bill Alexander said, you live or die by the heat treat.
But for 223/556 it's not mil-spec if it's not c158 and several other things.
Do I entirely trust CR colts? No, though I still believe they're probably better than many alternatives.
But when you can get pre-CR Colt oems for 750 to 800 bucks it's kind of an easy button.
Wyndham maybe veering towards a better mil spec type rifle, but they're early variants were not and there's not a lot of trust there.
For what it's worth, your KAC barrel nut timing issue would not be a mil-spec issue. If the nut allows the gas tube to go through cleanly and not contact it it's fine. But could be a few degrees off.
I view that as more of a KAC design issue then a colt mfg defect to. But it would be easily corrected, less than 5 minutes.
I think we’re actually in agreement on a lot of things, I just get tired of the broken record that this forum has become ad nauseam. Like I said I don’t think Windham is the best rifle out there, but for $850.00 or less I think they offer a respectable product. Fit and finish may not matter to Uncle Sam, but I think it’s indicative of overall quality in most products we as consumers buy. As of late, Windham’s products seem well made, and they use industry standard materials. I could understand the hate if they used 6160 receivers, 4140 barrels, etc, but that isn’t the case. As for the 9310 bolt, that doesn’t bother me, as long as the heat treat has been done properly. Even JP uses 9310 for their bolts. My only caveat with Windham is their 1x9 twist barrels. I don’t understand why they don’t use 1x7 twist barrels, when they have them in their parts catalog.
As for the KAC rail on my assigned weapon, I’m not saying the barrel nut or the rail were faulty. They weren’t installed correctly, which is a fit and finish issue. Does this mean that all Colts suck because my Army Colt assembled in 2019 wasn’t assembled correctly? No of course not. I think it’s only fair to give other manufacturers the same benefit of the doubt, especially if they’ve shown a willingness to listen to the market and improve. Heck, toward the end of Remington there were some pretty decent looking DPMS, and Bushmaster rifles as well. I mean Rittenhouse (regardless of your opinion on his actions) fought off an entire horde with an M&P sport, and a cheap Chinesium red dot.
If we keep repeating the Colt mantra without recognizing the efforts of other manufacturers, we as a community will become the new old Fudds. Leaning over the gun counter 20 years from now on any given afternoon, telling the young folks that all they need is a 6920, and a box of shells.
MistoGators
08-18-22, 22:04
BCM upper + Aero lower
Colt 6920
Zion 15
All great options for under $1k.
If the original question is still open, the person has or can can get a good quality lower…I ran into this LaRue Tactical sale and got one for myself; 16” 5.56 LaRue Upper for $749
https://www.larue.com/products/larue-ultimate-ar-15-upper/
http://i.imgur.com/l1iZD7l.jpg
LaRue Complete AR-15 Match Grade Upper
“…a complete, ready-to-shoot-extremely-small-groups LaRue 16” 5.56 LaRue Upper for $749 …drop this LaRue upper on your any-brand AR-15 lower, toss on a magnified scope, use match ammo or your own handloads, and easily shoot under 1-inch groups at 100 yards…. using this same 16” barrel profile… 20 rifles averaged just over 0.400 moa using Hornady 75gr BTHP Match ammo.”
SPECS:
Caliber: 5.56 x 45 mm NATO
Barrel Lengths: 16.1”,
Rifling Twist Rate: 1/8
Barrel Life: 10,000
Gas System: Direct Impingement
Funny, just started a new thread asking about this upper. How are you liking it? Is that an Mlok rail? Have you attached anything to it? I have a Larue PredaOBR and it has a proprietary rail which is easy to attach sections of picatinny rail to. Was wondering how you would go about attaching gizmos to this rail. Thanks
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titsonritz
08-20-22, 15:40
Funny, just started a new thread asking about this upper. How are you liking it? Is that an Mlok rail? Have you attached anything to it? I have a Larue PredaOBR and it has a proprietary rail which is easy to attach sections of picatinny rail to. Was wondering how you would go about attaching gizmos to this rail. Thanks
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Looks like they are using their Stealth 2.0 Receiver and Handguard (https://www.larue.com/products/stealth-2-0-receiver-and-handguard/) set which is available in 10.5" and 13" M-LOK
Looks like they are using their Stealth 2.0 Receiver and Handguard (https://www.larue.com/products/stealth-2-0-receiver-and-handguard/) set which is available in 10.5" and 13" M-LOK
Thanks [emoji106]
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