View Full Version : FBI's 1987 handgun testing
Interesting historical document. In the reliability testing, the Beretta 92 had a malfunction rate of 1 per 1166 rounds (0.08%) while the Glock 17 had a malfunction rate of 1 per 47 rounds (2.11%). James Reeves remarked that during this era the FBI was pretty firmly in the .45 ACP camp:
"For the purposes of this evaluation, any failure to feed, failure to extract, failure to eject, or failure to chamber a round or any other stoppage which prevented firing, (but which could have been remedied by the shooter) was considered a malfunction. Any malfunction rate greater than 1 malfunction per 200 rounds (005%) is unacceptably high."
https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/113821NCJRS.pdf
https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/113821NCJRS.pdf
From that doc:
"As a result of the controversy, a Wound Ballistics
Workshop was formed. Nationally recognized experts in various
fields pertinent to the subject of handgun wounding and wounding
effects were invited to attend. The purpose of the Workshop,
which occurred during the period september 15-17, 1987, was to
analyze 'and identify wounding factors, examine their effects upon
the human target, and make recommendations as to calibers and/or
bullets which would best realize the goal of immediate
incapacitation, relative to the tactical realities of law
enforcement usage"
Best line in that paper:
"When potential violence is reasonably anticipated, preparations are
characterized by obtaining as many shoulder weapons as possible."
From that came what is the seminal doc on the topic and a must read:
Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK
FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT FBI ACADEMY QUANTICO, VIRGINIA July 14, 1989
http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf
I found the malfunction rate for the two Glocks to be a bit suspect and I'm not a Glock guy.
Nothing against S & W, but the whole protocol sounded like they really wanted the 645. Maybe I just perceived it wrong.
I found the malfunction rate for the two Glocks to be a bit suspect and I'm not a Glock guy.
Nothing against S & W, but the whole protocol sounded like they really wanted the 645. Maybe I just perceived it wrong.
Absolutely correct, after the 1986 Miami shootout they were moving completely away from 9mm and .38 spcl and towards .45 and then 10mm. Platt and Matix changed the FBI in a day.
I suspect hard-primer ammo and mediocre Gen 1 mags caused some Glock problems.
They mention a Glock mag disassembling during shooting, too.
Funny that the Sigs had drop-safety issues. No firing pin block?
I suspect hard-primer ammo and mediocre Gen 1 mags caused some Glock problems.
They mention a Glock mag disassembling during shooting, too.
Funny that the Sigs had drop-safety issues. No firing pin block?
European ammo is kind of known for it's harder primers. I would have thought that Gaston and the boys took that into account, but maybe not.
I can't remember...did Glock change their base plates? For at least 10 yrs and probably longer, their mags haven't been the easiest mags to disassemble.
Both SIG's failed the trigger guard impact test:
"Failed hammer blow to trigger guard test. When struck on the trigger guard with a rawhide mallet, the trigger guard bent up against the bottom of the trigger rendering the weapon inoperative. The trigger could not be moved, nor could the hammer, and thus the slide was frozen shut."
The Miami Shootout was a pivotal moment for the FBI and, in turn, all law enforcement when it came to issued handguns and ammunition (like how the BoA shootout started the patrol rifle). The wonder round of the 1990s, the .40 S&W, came out of it since the FBI wanted their 10mm rounds downloaded. On a related note the department I was with adopted the G21 around 1994. Our armorers and a few volunteers took Glocks, Sigs and Smiths and shot them, abused them and randomly beat the snot out of them for a few weeks. The Glock was the only one that fired every single time. Anecdotal, maybe, but noteworthy nonetheless even if you think it proves nothing. I was issued a Gen2 model and that big, blocky thing never failed me.
Both SIG's failed the trigger guard impact test:
"Failed hammer blow to trigger guard test. When struck on the trigger guard with a rawhide mallet, the trigger guard bent up against the bottom of the trigger rendering the weapon inoperative. The trigger could not be moved, nor could the hammer, and thus the slide was frozen shut."
Sounds like a test designed to render a desired result. Every dropped SIG I've ever seen that happened to fall slide up, impacted the bottom of the grip and the bottom edge of the front slide. I don't think I've ever seen contact with the actual trigger guard.
They really wanted those 645s. It's sorta stupid that there is so much bureaucracy that the FBI has to custom manufacture test conditions to get the gear they feel they need. Kinda funny that they are currently back to 19s and 17s after the whole 45/10mm/40 experience.
I don't think the document mentions it, but I wonder what generation Glocks were used in the testing? This being 1987, presumably Gen 1 or 2?
The wonder round of the 1990s, the .40 S&W, came out of it since the FBI wanted their 10mm rounds downloaded.
They got their 10mm rounds downloaded with the 1076. Federal Made a 180gr@950 fps just for them. S&W figured out they could put that load in a shorter case and and a standard frame, and called it 40S&W. FBI would be one of last to adopt 40S&W in the 90s, not moving to it until 1997 or so.
They got their 10mm rounds downloaded with the 1076. Federal Made a 180gr@950 fps just for them. S&W figured out they could put that load in a shorter case and and a standard frame, and called it 40S&W. FBI would be one of last to adopt 40S&W in the 90s, not moving to it until 1997 or so.
They had to get professional enough first.
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-08-22, 22:35
I was around back then (I was in HS, but I spent my weekends with my buddies who worked at the biggest local gunship). The Glock had a few rough patches in the 80s. It was a new gun from new (to guns) company. I have no reason to believe the malfunctions from the Glocks were faked. Back then every gunshop was filled with the sounds of guys behind the counter explaining away Glock malfunctions with "limp-wristing."
Glock addressed most of the issues in various "product improvement" recalls in 90, 92, 93. It was easier to keep your reputation clean before the internet. These recalls addressed issues like "The slide locking back on a full magazine, Failure to lock into battery because the barrel lug drags on the slide lock, . The magazine follower tips or sticks in the magazine tube, unintentional discharges when dropped, etc. James either doesn't know about these developments or his Glock sponsorship is clouding his judgement.
Don't get me wrong, I ADORE the Gen 5 Glock and think it is basically perfect. But those first years were pretty rough.
I was around back then (I was in HS, but I spent my weekends with my buddies who worked at the biggest local gunship). The Glock had a few rough patches in the 80s. It was a new gun from new (to guns) company. I have no reason to believe the malfunctions from the Glocks were faked. Back then every gunshop was filled with the sounds of guys behind the counter explaining away Glock malfunctions with "limp-wristing."
Glock addressed most of the issues in various "product improvement" recalls in 90, 92, 93. It was easier to keep your reputation clean before the internet. These recalls addressed issues like "The slide locking back on a full magazine, Failure to lock into battery because the barrel lug drags on the slide lock, . The magazine follower tips or sticks in the magazine tube, unintentional discharges when dropped, etc. James either doesn't know about these developments or his Glock sponsorship is clouding his judgement.
Don't get me wrong, I ADORE the Gen 5 Glock and think it is basically perfect. But those first years were pretty rough.
I bought a Gen 1 back in 1987 and never had any problems with it other than hating the trigger.
Absolutely correct, after the 1986 Miami shootout they were moving completely away from 9mm and .38 spcl and towards .45 and then 10mm. Platt and Matix changed the FBI in a day.
At first they blamed the 9mm. Because a good hit did not stop Platt. So they eventually went to a 10mm, then a .40, then now back to the 9mm. Go figure.
At first they blamed the 9mm. Because a good hit did not stop Platt. So they eventually went to a 10mm, then a .40, then now back to the 9mm. Go figure.
Tactics, procedures & training? "Naw...not us...we're the FBI...Winchester built bad bullets..yup..that's what ruined our day...nothing else...fault of the vendor..."
At first they blamed the 9mm. Because a good hit did not stop Platt. So they eventually went to a 10mm, then a .40, then now back to the 9mm. Go figure.
While defensive ammo did exist in 1986, there has been improvement since then. But tactics and expectations are a big part of their failure that day. It literally became a training scenario so many mistakes were made.
One could say the change to 45/10/40 was related to the changes in mindset.
While defensive ammo did exist in 1986, there has been improvement since then. But tactics and expectations are a big part of their failure that day. It literally became a training scenario so many mistakes were made.
One could say the change to 45/10/40 was related to the changes in mindset.
I think it's important to stress those improvements were considerable and based on the protocols of the FBI after that event. The understanding of terminal ballistics is much more advanced today, so more effective for stopping goblins.
At first they blamed the 9mm. Because a good hit did not stop Platt. So they eventually went to a 10mm, then a .40, then now back to the 9mm. Go figure.
F==king Bunch of Idiots, blame the hardware and not the tactics.
Since the FBI has got involved in ammo testing they for sure did everyone a favor as all ammo is better. But I think they also stopped round development, in dictating the ideal penetration and expansion.
Maybe some calibers if not aiming for the FBI standards, could even be better than they are. I wonder if some calibers have been held back.
F==king Bunch of Idiots, blame the hardware and not the tactics.
Since the FBI has got involved in ammo testing they for sure did everyone a favor as all ammo is better. But I think they also stopped round development, in dictating the ideal penetration and expansion.
Maybe some calibers if not aiming for the FBI standards, could even be better than they are. I wonder if some calibers have been held back.
As much as the ammo improved by the FBI standards developed, it does seem like it's become an artificial limit to something even better.
The bottom line is this in all the reports on firearms and ammo which I am sure inside the FBI might even be in the thousands of pages, only one sentence is true.
"When potential violence is reasonably anticipated, preparations are
characterized by obtaining as many shoulder weapons as possible."
Accountants and lawyers are not who I go to for anything other than doing my taxes and keeping me out of jail. The problem with having an American passport is then all the stupid American international laws kick in. Congress passes laws to make Americans less competitive in the world, but the laws never seem to apply to them.
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