View Full Version : Just sometimes WTF ???
We went out today and had two guns shoot 3 inches low and 1.5 inches right. These guns were zero'd many months go and again last week. Now all of sudden they shoot 3 inches low and 1.5 inches right. Not one gun but 2, one is my Geissele SD and the other is my FN SPR that both shoot lights out.
Have you guys got this craziness ? It has happened before but still WTF?
We have seen this before and our other guns were spot on. God help us all. Im just going to watch Lone Survivor.
PB
Just had it happen on Friday. Steyr AUG M3 zeroed at 50 indoors last winter.
Took it to the 100 yard range on Friday and I was aiming at the center diamond and the hits were all over the smaller diamond in the upper left hand corner.
You can see me walking it in on this target as well as the initial 5 shots in the upper left. (One round nicked the paper nearly off the target.)
How it goes from zeroed at 50 to this is beyond perplexing. Wasn’t even close and both were using the same 77gr hand loads so it ain’t the ammo.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220709/a2d57fbb6effbae50b862b1bcdb733a7.jpg
Using irons or red dots/scopes?
Could temperature and/or humidity be a factor?
Using irons or red dots/scopes?
My AUG sports a Vortex Viper 1-4x. Pretty sure PB is using scopes as well only nicer.
Victim's of climate change...we're doomed.
Different ammo or lots?
Location AZ
We went out today and had two guns shoot 3 inches low and 1.5 inches right. These guns were zero'd many months go and again last week. Now all of sudden they shoot 3 inches low and 1.5 inches right. Not one gun but 2, one is my Geissele SD and the other is my FN SPR that both shoot lights out.
Have you guys got this craziness ? It has happened before but still WTF?
PBWhat was the temperature when you shot them last, and today? Did you shoot them at the same place? Same load?
Just had this very thing happen a couple of weeks ago. I put it down to different ammo and different velocity intersecting with the twist. Ever shoot 6 or 7 different charges while trying to find that perfect load and watch it rotate around the POA? I have seen it a number of times with different bolt guns.
triggerjerk
07-09-22, 21:52
Different rest? Different chair, posture or lean on the rifle? I've had inch or 2 of group movement or size change from different pressures on rifle or different finger positions on heavier triggers. Even stacking bags to different heights. But never that much. Funny enough is that I haven't really had as much change from bipod to bags as one might expect....
Parallax error is the first thing that comes to mind.
Since your past experience was stellar, and the handloads the same, two things come to mind. First, were the atmospherics exactly the same or close to it? Second, was the marksman, meaning you, in the same physical condition? Hungover, tired, vision off,mentally deranged, I mean mentally distracted :smile:, etc., etc., etc. can cause a noticeable downturn in ability to focus, follow through, etc. Possibly go out again when everything is at it's peak and try again. A one time down turn is just one plotting point.
ETA: Simple things first, check screw tightness on mounts.
This happens to me all the time. I guess it's from removing and remounting my QD optics, so I've cut back on that, but still. I just live with it, close enough.
OutofBatt3ry
07-10-22, 08:46
Parallax error is the first thing that comes to mind.
I was going to say, sounds like a T1 or an MRO.
I've had it happen. Not a lot, mind you, but enough to realize the frustration. Guns that were shooting great suddenly can't hit the broadside of a barn. With the M4s I experienced it with, I always assumed being treated like they were was the cause. With civilian guns, it's a whole lot harder to believe that getting gently set in a gun safe would cause them to lose zero. I'm sure there's a scientific explanation for it, but I just blame the damn gremlins and move on.
shooter
position
parallax
ammo variation - lot, type, package error
firearm mechanical - barrel, bolt, other
optic mechanical - mount, internals
environmentals - >range, >effect
It happens to me sometimes. I buy ammo in case lots and shoot from the same case and I have had the same thing happen.
All I can think of is atmospheric conditions.
It’s why we confirmed zero much.
turnburglar
07-10-22, 13:36
I shoot in AZ too, and I bet it has to do with the temperature. Some powders are more temperature sensitive than others. For example my IMR4350 gained almost 50 FPS from the 60* spring to the 105* summer. This phenomena is one of the big reasons I got into hand loading in the first place. I got tired of trying to figure out if X box of ammo was actually on POI/POA. One thing I have noticed is that with handloads my POI only drifts vertically with the FPS not horizontally. Even with this slight change for anything other than my 6.5 CM which has a 16x optic the zero has remained solid for years.
Interesting topic. I have numerous scopes that are very solid. Perhaps a minor deviation here and there, but nothing that is significant. Example: 1/2 inch left etc. This includes multiple trips to Africa. The way the airline characters throw around rifle cases, it amazes me that I have never had an issue. My most consistent scope is a NF, followed by Kahles, steiner and leupold. My vortex scopes have had a bit more deviation.
I do keep a shooters log for each of my AR's. I run them, check for issues, run drills and log the results. Not every time, but often I take them to the range and run them at the dedicated rifle range and check zero. Where I find issues is usually with my RDS. I have an eotech that has been outstanding. What gets me is how does a gun/sight, that was dialed in a month prior shift zero 1.5 inches left and 1 inch low? That is at 50 yards. I try to be consistent in my "zero" set up. Shooting groups is not my favorite, as I don't have the patience it requires. Hence, I get aggravated when I spend time to dial in a gun and it shifts zero. It is not unusual for me to have a friend, who is much better than me, verify the zero after I dial in the rifle.
What I need to do is review my logs to see if one particular set up is more problematic. I do recall that one is an aimpoint. I don't recall if it is a T1 or T2. I do know that I have had issues with my MRO's-the new generation. My MRO's are now relegated to 2 rifles where the longest shot might be 20 yards. When I get back to my AZ house, I will review my logs to see if I can detect a pattern with a particular sight/mount combo etc.
In conclusion, I am glad that I am not alone in the WTF/ zero shift club.
Cheers, Steve
We went out today and had two guns shoot 3 inches low and 1.5 inches right. These guns were zero'd many months go and again last week. Now all of sudden they shoot 3 inches low and 1.5 inches right. Not one gun but 2, one is my Geissele SD and the other is my FN SPR that both shoot lights out.
Have you guys got this craziness ? It has happened before but still WTF?
We have seen this before and our other guns were spot on. God help us all. Im just going to watch Lone Survivor.
PB
Yes, I've had the same thing happen, to include with my duty weapon, which is a miserable feeling. How the heck can a duty weapon lose zero?!?!?! Granted, it wasn't a massive shift, but it is still enough to disgust me.
Location AZ
What was the temperature when you shot them last, and today? Did you shoot them at the same place? Same load?
Shot them last week in similar temps and for a few months before, weekly. Same loads.. We too have seen the summer and winter DOPE change, but this was one week. Pure WTF territory. I didn't adjust scopes yet, was going to see what happens next week. But I am going to clean the AR, it has had shit to shingle shot through it.
Mark and I both shot the gun, so it may have been the nuts behind the trigger, but who knows.
PB
Yes, I've had the same thing happen, to include with my duty weapon, which is a miserable feeling. How the heck can a duty weapon lose zero?!?!?! Granted, it wasn't a massive shift, but it is still enough to disgust me.
Yea, that would trouble me too. Big Time.. Some shit never gets explained.
PB
We went out today and had two guns shoot 3 inches low and 1.5 inches right. These guns were zero'd many months go and again last week. Now all of sudden they shoot 3 inches low and 1.5 inches right. Not one gun but 2, one is my Geissele SD and the other is my FN SPR that both shoot lights out.
Have you guys got this craziness ? It has happened before but still WTF?
We have seen this before and our other guns were spot on. God help us all. Im just going to watch Lone Survivor.
PB
Same ammo? Different ammo? Different lot of the same ammo?
pointblank4445
07-10-22, 15:54
I've had issues with a warm barrel/fouled zero starting out different when going to confirm later on a cold/clean barrel.
Never had a difference much more than a full 1" in any direction though on a barrel worth a darn.
It’s perplexing, but normal. Ever since I can remember, savvy shooters have advised checking your zero before a hunt, especially when travel is is involved. It’s why competitors fire sighters before shooting for score. Yes, I’ve experienced the mysterious shifting of POI in nearly all of my optics, at one point or another.
It’s part and parcel of the voodoo of shooting.
Straight Shooter
07-11-22, 09:19
PB- your question brought back memories.
Back in the 70's, as a kid hunting in the TN hills...my old M788 .243 was a groundhog/deer/fox/crow ect. killer.
Had some Bushnell scope on it, and I didnt know jack back then about scopes, other than how to sight one in at 100 yards.
I clearly remember times when Id miss something..then go out back in our hayfield and bench the rifle and check zero, only to find it was "off".
I chalked it up then to a cheap scope or I had bumped it too hard, or something. For YEARS I thought most riflescopes were delicate things that would lose zero in a stiff breeze.
Back then, might have been true. But Ive throughout my life have had this happen a few times. Who knows why. Guess we just gotta keep checking zero's, as well as screws, mounts,bases, anything else that can come loose.
Location AZ
What was the temperature when you shot them last, and today? Did you shoot them at the same place? Same load?
We shoot these guns every weekend. The Geissele is a laser beam that shoots pretty much all the load near zero. We shot 3 different loads and all were way low and right. It was a little hotter this Saturday, but not significantly.
I have been chasing this issue for a few years myself.
Bottom line - most scopes suck at holding zero, and returning to zero. Even with fairly minor knocks to the scopes. Even premium scopes.
If you want to go down the rabbit hole on this, go over to rokslide and read up. Serious work has been done to figure it out. Explains a whole lot of my "unexplainables" over the years.
This issue has cost me at least one big elk and one big mulie. Almost cost my son a cougar.
(I presume crossposting is allowed)
The preamble (how the guy came to unpacking the problem)
https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/scope-field-eval-explanation-and-standards.246775/
Scopes reviewed to date
https://www.rokslide.com/forums/forums/rifle-scope-field-evaluations.133/
They are doing stuff like dropping the gun on a pad (with the pad on packed snow) from 18" in different orientations and seeing if zero holds, then the same from 36" and check zero, then put the gun in the truck and drive around 500 miles and see what happens to zero. It is absolutely eye opening.
They also check tracking and return to zero. Those are important but if the scope can't even hold zero with the minor abuses of life......
Very few scopes have passed the tests which frankly, aren't that severe.
I wouldn't be surprised, since they both experienced similar direction of shift, that the shifts came from handling.
Either from pressure on the barrels or optics. I had this happen when an item dropped in my safe and the door was closed putting pressure on three AR receivers that were resting on free float barrels. All three shifted POI down to a similar degree from one time closing the safe door.
I think both guns live in different safes, and both get a fairly cushy ride in nice padded cases.
It’s perplexing, but normal. Ever since I can remember, savvy shooters have advised checking your zero before a hunt, especially when travel is is involved. It’s why competitors fire sighters before shooting for score. Yes, I’ve experienced the mysterious shifting of POI in nearly all of my optics, at one point or another.
It’s part and parcel of the voodoo of shooting.
Voodoo, there is our answer. No other possible reason.
PB
Voodoo, there is our answer. No other possible reason.PB
Outstanding. That nails it as my rifles typically travel to / from the range in a flipping VOODOO Tactical case.
Outstanding. That nails it as my rifles typically travel to / from the range in a flipping VOODOO Tactical case.
http://i.imgur.com/TCpTfoX.jpg?1 (https://imgur.com/TCpTfoX)
Bingo
PB
Yep, probably "markm" put some voodoo shit on those two rifles. You might have to perform an exorcism out there in the desert at dusk smoking a stogie, slaughter a chicken and drink it's blood, put away a fifth of rum, and consume some "magic shrooms"!
Yep, probably "markm" put some voodoo shit on those two rifles.
No way. That Geissele rifle makes me look like a good shooter and reloader. I can't have it getting squirrely.
Yep, probably "markm" put some voodoo shit on those two rifles. You might have to perform an exorcism out there in the desert at dusk smoking a stogie, slaughter a chicken and drink it's blood, put away a fifth of rum, and consume some "magic shrooms"!
I'm down for the exorcism, thanks for the solid suggestion. Might have to sub out the chicken for a Yote.
PB
I'm down for the exorcism, thanks for the solid suggestion. Might have to sub out the chicken for a Yote.
PB
Now THAT is so crazy! I bow down to the exorcist.
I have had this happen with pistols, rifles bows and most notably a slug gun. On the bow I chalked it up to string stretch due to temp change and storage. I typically can re sight in and be dead on. On the firearms I mostly think it’s me, inconsistent in how I breath, see and hold the weapon along with environmental change such as temp and humidity. Kind of like stacking of tolerances with none by them selves causing a major problem, but together it’s a crap show at times.
The slug gun is the hardest for me, it’s a Browning A bolt and a tack driver most of the time yet I consistently shoot low and to the left out of my tree stand. Not enough to miss as most shots are under 60yds but frustrating non the less. I ll take it it the range and its dead on, drives me nuts as my rifle and muzzle loader don’t have the same issue.
I’m gonna throw this out there as what I’ve found with my own guns.
Not getting a solid zero. I used to zero at 100 yards and every now and then I’d have to re-zero. Blamed it on Leupold scopes and switched. But at this time I also started zeroing at 200 yards and things got better. Still had a few Leupold scopes and they held better too.
It really got better when I started shooting at long range and had to refine my windage. Once I got things zeroed solid, my close range zero never shifts unexpectedly.
Zeroing at 50 yards only compounds the problem. Being off by 1/4” at 50 is very noticeable at 200.
It really got better when I started shooting at long range and had to refine my windage. Once I got things zeroed solid, my close range zero never shifts unexpectedly.
Zeroing at 50 yards only compounds the problem. Being off by 1/4” at 50 is very noticeable at 200.
With the Geissele gun, we've been shooting groups and long range extensively for months. I agree that a 50 yard zero is a bad idea unless you never shoot more than 50-100 yards.
turnburglar
07-12-22, 12:25
Man my personal experiences are VERY contrary to this thread. I have had both primary arms and Vortex $400 optics hold zero for years in Aero mounts and I dont safe queen my guns. Plenty of scratches on all of them. Even when I was violently trying to mortar the action from a blown primer at one point I started worrying about my optic. It was fine. I have even grabbed a quick 50 yard zero on multiple occasions and then shown up to shoot a match the very next day and did great.
There absolutely is merit to dialing in your guns and using the scientific method to isolate variables and solve problems. But at the end of the day: You actually have to run your shit and verify it. I get so miffed watching these threads year after year, where someone wants a T1 rifle that they never plan on shooting but because they dropped the money at the register they expect sub moa. And then they actually go out and find out they have a $2k rifle that shoots 6 moa. There is absolutely no replacement for testing and verification.
Man my personal experiences are VERY contrary to this thread. I have had both primary arms and Vortex $400 optics hold zero for years in Aero mounts and I dont safe queen my guns.
I believe it. There's no way I can be sold on the Nightforce scope being the problem without there being a major defect in the scope. That's what's so puzzling. I think Pappabear was going to clean the bore on the Geissele gun. We'll definitely be shooting it again this weekend.
turnburglar
07-12-22, 12:49
I dont know why I didn't think of this before....
Did you clean the gun (bore), adjust the rail or do anything else internal?
My creedmoor that has stayed zero for 2 years over 1k rounds I never once touched the bore. As a general rule of thumb I clean the chambers sometimes but never the bore until something is weird.
I dont know why I didn't think of this before....
Did you clean the gun (bore), adjust the rail or do anything else internal?
My creedmoor that has stayed zero for 2 years over 1k rounds I never once touched the bore. As a general rule of thumb I clean the chambers sometimes but never the bore until something is weird.
Nope. I think Pappabear cleaned it one time a month or so back and the barrel wasn't a bad fouler. But we generally do the same as you posted... clean when things aren't right.
(We are jumping in and out of TAC (ball powder) which could be making the barrel nuts)
I'm going to buff out the Super Duty this week and rezero and see what happens from there.
I'm going to leave the FN alone and see where it lands this weekend.
PB
It's time to break out Wolf SRMs and good old H322. Nam loads.
Wait a minute, two guns, both were 3” low and 1.5” right? Being off that much screams mechanical but both guns suggest shooter or support equipment.
Wait a minute, two guns, both were 3” low and 1.5” right? Being off that much screams mechanical but both guns suggest shooter or support equipment.
I know. But two shooters hitting in a new POI? And the 6.5 guns had no issues... or any other gun for that matter.
triggerjerk
07-13-22, 11:20
Was last 0 actually shot at 100? Or did y'all get 100z then add comeups, shoot at 1,000,000yds, and miscount the knobs back to 100 without verifying? I dunnit befo.....
Was last 0 actually shot at 100? Or did y'all get 100z then add comeups, shoot at 1,000,000yds, and miscount the knobs back to 100 without verifying? I dunnit befo.....
Yea we know that fck up very well, and my scopes have Zero stops. When that deal happens you are usually shooting 10 mils high but we were low. We know that one well but this was not the case. I just went over both guns and tried to tighten screws and find the culprit, no such luck.
PB
triggerjerk
07-13-22, 14:55
If I were to get a tattoo, it would go on the back of my hand and say, "CHECK YOUR SCREWS". 2 guns off the same amount shouldn't work like that. Any pranksters or angry women with access to the rifles?
OutofBatt3ry
07-13-22, 19:37
I’m gonna throw this out there as what I’ve found with my own guns.
Not getting a solid zero. I used to zero at 100 yards and every now and then I’d have to re-zero. Blamed it on Leupold scopes and switched. But at this time I also started zeroing at 200 yards and things got better. Still had a few Leupold scopes and they held better too.
It really got better when I started shooting at long range and had to refine my windage. Once I got things zeroed solid, my close range zero never shifts unexpectedly.
Zeroing at 50 yards only compounds the problem. Being off by 1/4” at 50 is very noticeable at 200.
This is absolute 5.56 wisdom. Zero at 50. Great. Move to 100 and dial in windage(you'll be high, and that's fine, leave the elevation alone). Do a mag or 2 at 200 and dial that down. Come back to 50 and you'll just about have one hole in the paper. (If you haven't moved to a 36yard zero)
If I were to get a tattoo, it would go on the back of my hand and say, "CHECK YOUR SCREWS". 2 guns off the same amount shouldn't work like that. Any pranksters or angry women with access to the rifles?
LOL.. I don't think anyone touches the guns. But we've had this same stupid thing happen over the years where 3 guns will be shooting way left for example. It's not often, but it's one of those WTF things that drive you nuts.
LOL.. I don't think anyone touches the guns. But we've had this same stupid thing happen over the years where 3 guns will be shooting way left for example. It's not often, but it's one of those WTF things that drive you nuts.
Coriolis effect
Coriolis effect
Climate change has exacerbated the issue. Or Solar flare ups?
triggerjerk
07-14-22, 12:14
You beat me to Coriolis Effect, so I'll just suggest they accidentally placed the target 3in high and 1.5in to the left. Locally, we experience a lot of what I call "defective targets"....
Climate change has exacerbated the issue. Or Solar flare ups?
That or the magnetic poles flipping
You beat me to Coriolis Effect, so I'll just suggest they accidentally placed the target 3in high and 1.5in to the left.
:lol: That's it! Staple the target lower and to the right.
Way over thinking this. It is the light and the direction of it that is causing this. I have been out shooting on a mostly cloudy day and was working some loads. The gun was zeroed close enough to do load work. Then the sun comes out and all the groups just shifted an inch or more. This has happened to me several times. And when the clouds came back, the group returned to where it was.
It make a HUGE difference on iron sights. But it also happens with optics. It is how the light is being sent through the glass and the diffraction each scope can have. No glass is perfect.
I thought about the sun and how it affects my pistol shooting. I have a S&W 43c that has an XS Outdoors big dot on it and when the sun lights up one side of the sight and I’ll shoot to the opposite side. Really notice it when shooting the snub nose at 50 yards on my 8x10 plate.
I guess it could be, be nice to leave things alone and go shoot again from a different angle or time. If it returns to normal be sure and let us know.
triggerjerk
07-14-22, 18:42
Plus 1 on angle of light. At range, light wind pushing mirage may also shift image away from reality. One may think he's simply adjusting for bullet wind drift....
We're talking about 100 yards at the same time of day every weekend. So... No. It's not a light issue.
My money is on the gun being poa/poi when we shoot it this weekend. But who knows?
But was it cloudy on one day and sunny the next. Thats when it can happen
Unbelievable. I shot the gun today with 69 gr OTMs and the POI was an EXACT reversal of the adjustment we made last weekend. Pappabear got a pic, but it shot a tight little half MOA group perfectly high and left of the correction from last week.
The only variable being that the filthy (according to Pappabear) got cleaned. No mechanical corrections were made to the gun. I would have lost this bet.
Coal Dragger
07-16-22, 22:43
So the old adage from experienced shooters that the barrel will “tell you” when it needs to be cleaned is true in this case? Nice.
It was previously shooting to point of aim for many sessions
You took it out and the impacts were low and right. You took it home and did nothing to the rifle or optic besides clean the rifle and put it back together. The optic's zero was not changed from where it was set months ago?
Today it shot high and left?
It was previously shooting to point of aim for many sessions
You took it out and the impacts were low and right. You took it home and did nothing to the rifle or optic besides clean the rifle and put it back together. The optic's zero was not changed from where it was set months ago?
Today it shot high and left?
Not exactly. We re-zeroed the Scope to fix the poi which was 1 inch right and 3 inches low. Then Pappabear cleaned the barrel. We shot it yesterday, and the poi moved back up to EXACTLY where it was before. We had to move the scope back to original zero.
So the old adage from experienced shooters that the barrel will “tell you” when it needs to be cleaned is true in this case? Nice.
Yeah, but such a dramatic shift is almost unbelievable. And the zero fell off in a matter of 10 rounds. I can remember a horrible group that sorta walked the poi low right. And then it seemed to settle back down with the low right poi. So we re-zeroed the scope.
Is there a chance your benches got moved a little in between sessions? If it got scooted a hair to throw it off level, then somebody noticed, and put it back exactly where it's been sitting forever (marks on the concrete)?
Nah.
It has to be something you two did together the last two sessions, right? Re-torque rings using the same tool/method, and duplicate the same mistake?
Not sure why it seems like scope/rifle/shooter cant could be a factor; I'm nowhere near you guys in terms of expertise, so pardon my wild-ass guessing (and go easy on the flaming). I normally STFU and learn, but nobody seems to have pinned down the solution, so why not toss it at the wall?
I'll go back to reading and learning now, but I'm curious as hell to learn the cause!
All these theories are interesting but this shift is way too much to make any sense of it. The other crazy thing is the FN SPR 308 bolt was back to zero as well. I didn't adjust the bolt gun turret and it went back to zero. As I said before, God only knows. Next time I won't adjust a turret. The Super Duty went right back as well. See the pic below for our opposite group. High and left.
And we had 6.5CM bolt guns that and AR10's that never shifted last week or this one, which fcks up most logical theories
We have had some shifts in the past but this one takes the cake. After adjusting the turret last week from low right to high left.
http://i.imgur.com/eDXmLoj.jpg (https://imgur.com/eDXmLoj)
PB
Voodoo
I'm telling you! Barrels are like children. They have their own personalities.
I have a 14.5 middy Sabre Defense that spins 55gr Hornady soft points apart! I've never figured out why. It took a while to figure out what was happening... Finally put some paper a like 10 yards and saw the fragment pattern.
I think all the factors have been mentioned, and when you total them up, it's ridiculous how many factors affect zero. In my experience, the most likely culprits are: inconsistent focal plane (sight/reticle vs target), inconsistent shot follow-through, light level at the target or sight, shooter position, rifle support, and ammunition or weather change on a finely-gassed gun.
I learned this the hard way from the rifle that exacerbates all of the above more than most: the FAL. Weather especially plays a significant role in FAL use, as you need consistent self-loading function to get consistent accuracy. FALs are rarely better than 3 MOA guns anyway, but enforced consistency was the difference between 3 MOA and 6 MOA.
It'll be interesting to see if this gun ever repeats this.
I'm telling you! Barrels are like children. They have their own personalities.
I have a 14.5 middy Sabre Defense that spins 55gr Hornady soft points apart! I've never figured out why. It took a while to figure out what was happening... Finally put some paper a like 10 yards and saw the fragment pattern.
Wow, that's interesting. Did you ever try using a cleaning rod to measure the barrel twist? Doesn't seem like that should be happening with a 1 in 7.
Wow, that's interesting. Did you ever try using a cleaning rod to measure the barrel twist? Doesn't seem like that should be happening with a 1 in 7.
I could never get the cleaning rod method to work for me. Maybe I need a jag or something. I should pull that barrel out and retest it again.
Perhaps you and PB slipped into an alternate dimension, and the back again Mark.
Makes one doubt, or reconsider, taking that one in a million tight shot though.
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