View Full Version : Uvalde video released - UPDATE - Arrendondo terminated
https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2022/07/12/uvalde-school-shooting-video-of-robb-elementary-shows-police-response/65370384007/
The video Uvalde cops didn't want you to see: 17 officers RAN AWAY from gunman - and one stopped for HAND SANITIZER
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11007401/Leaked-Uvalde-shooting-video-shows-gunman-calmly-walk-elementary-school-fire-young-boy.html
Jesus Christ....
Clears up a few things, they obviously got inside the building quickly, but sure as shit held in place for a long damn time.
The video Uvalde cops didn't want you to see: 17 officers RAN AWAY from gunman - and one stopped for HAND SANITIZER
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11007401/Leaked-Uvalde-shooting-video-shows-gunman-calmly-walk-elementary-school-fire-young-boy.html
Jesus Christ....
That's a little bit hyperbole.
17 didn't advance on the gunman, only a few did. And they retreated back to the same holding point in the hallway with the rest of the LEOs. The one guy using hand sanitizer was odd but he didn't even go down the hallway I don't think.
The scariest part of the vid was the little kid who looked down the hall after the shooter went down it.
That was alarming, if my kid died in that school I would be destroyed by watching that video. I want some of the cops on here to tell me if this scene makes sense, any sense.
PB
That was alarming, if my kid died in that school I would be destroyed by watching that video. I want some of the cops on here to tell me if this scene makes sense, any sense.
PB
I just told someone who is the head of a large school that I have no words in the 5 languages I speak to express what I feel towards those cowards.
If my kid died in that school, it would be a turning point in many peoples lives.
“Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn’t even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.”
— Heraclitus
They lacked for a warrior.
No it doesn't. It goes against everything we have been taught, and trained on since Columbine. I have no idea why it transitioned from active shooter to barricaded suspect. I don't think the Uvalde school or city officers carry all the blame. There are many other agencies represented it looked like. When the DPS gave thier report it didn't say anything about DPS personnel there as well. Someone, anyone could have said let's go we're going to end this. There may not be a lot of LEO replying because most are embarassed and disgusted like most on this board. And when an event like this occurs and they weigh in it frequently leads to criticism towards any that get involved in the thread so many choose to stay out. I usually do.
Thanks for the replies, I appreciate the perspective.
PB
I just told someone who is the head of a large school that I have no words in the 5 languages I speak to express what I feel towards those cowards.
If my kid died in that school, it would be a turning point in many peoples lives.
“Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn’t even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.”
— Heraclitus
They lacked for a warrior.
They could have used a real fighter or God help us, a Warrior. Could have saved so many lives.
PB
That was alarming, if my kid died in that school I would be destroyed by watching that video. I want some of the cops on here to tell me if this scene makes sense, any sense.
PB
Pure cluster****. And cowardice.
I closed the original Uvalde thread due to this new thread, no point having two discussions. Nothing wrong with the other one.
I just told someone who is the head of a large school that I have no words in the 5 languages I speak to express what I feel towards those cowards.
If my kid died in that school, it would be a turning point in many peoples lives.
“Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn’t even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.”
— Heraclitus
They lacked for a warrior.
I'm not at all surprised. I just retired. 23 years as a patrolman. Ran a bunch of active shooter training with our officers. Cops have become armed social workers. Not many fighters are left
Straight Shooter
07-13-22, 02:13
I cant watch it. I know it was hellish & I know he was a goblin. No need for me to see it.
Son of a Bitch. Ball-less Cocksuckers comes to mind.
Swear to God I would NEVER be able to look into a mirror again if I was one of them.
They certainly handled the Parents, trying to get INTO the school with authority. Makes me sick.
You won’t be able to convince me that this wasn’t done on purpose. To drive up the body count in order to have a new talking point for gun control.
Not saying the officers themselves are in on it, but the Chief, in my mind, sure as shit is.
Averageman
07-13-22, 06:45
Fire every damn one of them.
Post their names so no one hires them ever again in any Law Enforcement capacity
Outlander Systems
07-13-22, 08:38
https://i.ibb.co/ZS3hfSw/FA3-F2-CB8-14-F8-4-CD4-B7-E0-4197-CC73-C059.jpg
That was alarming, if my kid died in that school I would be destroyed by watching that video. I want some of the cops on here to tell me if this scene makes sense, any sense.
PB
Its not just you my friend. Its not just you...
Here is a mom who has a story to tell. I'm pretty sure she sees it the same way you and I and so many other people do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua4899bF5rM
If your blood wasn't already boiling, it will be after this. Fair warning.
I'm not at all surprised. I just retired. 23 years as a patrolman. Ran a bunch of active shooter training with our officers. Cops have become armed social workers. Not many fighters are left
I was in for 20, 10 of those on SWAT. I have come close to death a few times trying to rescue hostages, one of whom was a toddler. This hits far too close to home for me, and it hurts me deeply. I taught this response training to every agency close to ours for almost 10 years. When you put that badge on in the morning... you tell every momma in your area "not today, momma... not without killing me first"... and then you go forth to make that the case. These pieces of human excrement are the lowest of the low in my former profession. And I do not suffer cowards lightly.
Think before you type, this is not a private locker room where nothing leaves the room. Anyone in the world could see this site and this thread.
Is this censoring, you bet.
The video Uvalde cops didn't want you to see: 17 officers RAN AWAY from gunman - and one stopped for HAND SANITIZER
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11007401/Leaked-Uvalde-shooting-video-shows-gunman-calmly-walk-elementary-school-fire-young-boy.html
Jesus Christ....
Should have been posted in the existing thread, now closed. I was going to mention the hand sanitizer thing to. That blows my mind in ways I can't even verbalize. I hope no parent of those dead kids views that.
Should have been posted in the existing thread, now closed. I was going to mention the hand sanitizer thing to. That blows my mind in ways I can't even verbalize. I hope no parent of those dead kids views that.
I can’t understand why just one of those cops didn’t default to their basic training and go thru that door. So many cops and all I saw was a bunch of cowards until the BORTAC guys showed up and did what should of been done by the cops who were inside in 3 minutes.
https://i.ibb.co/ZS3hfSw/FA3-F2-CB8-14-F8-4-CD4-B7-E0-4197-CC73-C059.jpg
He didn't want to spread COVID.
I can’t understand why just one of those cops didn’t default to their basic training and go thru that door. So many cops and all I saw was a bunch of cowards until the BORTAC guys showed up and did what should of been done by the cops who were inside in 3 minutes.
The simple answer is: shitty and/or inadequate training.
The simple answer is: shitty and/or inadequate training.
That's not going to fly. What is their SOP for an active shooter? If they decided it was no longer and active shooter, but a contained shooter (as some claimed), they will have to defend that.
Has anyone found and posted their SOP? Not surprisingly, "Katherine Schweit, a retired FBI agent who created the agency's active shooter protocols on Monday ripped police in Uvalde, Texas for apparently failing to follow the procedures they were trained to enact."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/creator-of-fbi-s-active-shooter-protocol-rips-uvalde-cops-for-78-minutes-of-inaction/ar-AAXSWm1
The simple answer is: shitty and/or inadequate training.
I respectfully disagree. You can give cops the best gear in the world and the best training. At the end of the day you can't polish a turd. Most police departments are more interested in hiring and promoting a bunch of nutless social workers than cops that are willing to fight when necessary.
Outlander Systems
07-13-22, 13:14
Hahahahahaha!!!!
He didn't want to spread COVID.
I respectfully disagree. You can give cops the best gear in the world and the best training. At the end of the day you can't polish a turd. Most police departments are more interested in hiring and promoting a bunch of nutless social workers than cops that are willing to fight when necessary.
This goes right back to what I described a few times in other threads: The move away from the "warrior's mentality" to this new, nicer-gentler way of "policing". This is what you get.
I renew my call for the death penalty.
I renew my call for the death penalty.
For who? The shooter is dead, went there to die, and no threat of sitting in prison for decades to die a painless death will deter one single event like that. No threat of being hung at dawn would change it either in reality. Wrong hill to even approach if the goal is to reduce such events.
Finalyl it already exists in TX.
For who? The shooter is dead
I know.
It’s for everyone else responsible for those kids dying.
Those people will have to face their maker, and the accounting will be swift and just, and eternal. Until that day comes, we can only hope that Karma visits those cowards frequently. There will be no honorable end for these cretins.
the AAR was bad enough to read. I had to stop watching it shortly after it started. I have way too many nightmares which I can not control in my head currently. That being said I am beyond understanding why the first officer didn’t engage before the demon entered the school. Asking for permission to engage is another. My sheriff would fire you for doing just that. We have already had one school shooting and thankfully no one was killed. Unfortunately in today’s environment many officers are afraid to act and then ask for forgiveness. The level of micromanagement in some agencies is unreal and unrealistic. Thankfully my employer is not into the micromanagement style. There are a few but overall it is a great place to work.
Law enforcement is not what it was when I started 20 years ago. Someone said it, too much social work being dumped on us.
Dan
Those people will have to face their maker, and the accounting will be swift and just, and eternal. Until that day comes, we can only hope that Karma visits those cowards frequently. There will be no honorable end for these cretins.
If I were the parent of one of those kids, that would offer me zero comfort. It's this life someone need to pay the piper.
No charges, no consequences?
“It's unlikely criminal charges would be filed against responding officers -- and more unlikely they would stick -- over alleged inaction or allegations they didn't quickly enough kill the shooter, Stoughton told CNN.
Prosecutors have discretion in filing charges, so it's not impossible, but the bar is high for criminal accountability for inaction.“
https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/13/us/uvalde-police-consequences-texas-shooting/index.html
Outlander Systems
07-13-22, 16:11
Let this be a reminder to us that all we have is each other.
Leaveammoforme
07-13-22, 16:18
I hope all who failed to act hear those screams every time they close their eyes.
Let this be a reminder to us that all we have is each other.
I prefer the reminder. "you are on your own"
Disarm the police? They only use weapons to prevent parents from saving children now, apparently.
I hope all who failed to act hear those screams every time they close their eyes.
They edited those out of the linked video.
https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2022/07/12/uvalde-school-shooting-video-of-robb-elementary-shows-police-response/65370384007/
“We also have removed the sound of children screaming…”
I can’t understand why just one of those cops didn’t default to their basic training and go thru that door. So many cops and all I saw was a bunch of cowards until the BORTAC guys showed up and did what should of been done by the cops who were inside in 3 minutes.
What door are you talking about? They are inside the school, standing in a hall intersection. A handful of guys went down the hall, seemed to trade shots and then came back, and then they stood there for like 45 minutes.
Who is this unarmed guy holding back a couple BP guys that seemed to want to move forward??
***Updated*** This is a paramedic attempting to triage or similar AFTER the shooter was stopped.
Dennis.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220713/1fbf6f6800835fa004b811b5e06ab0c0.jpg
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Outlander Systems
07-13-22, 18:36
I can’t figure out if Punisher Skull Phone Guy or Hand Sanitizer Guy win for most worthless.
Leaveammoforme
07-13-22, 18:47
I can’t figure out if Punisher Skull Phone Guy or Hand Sanitizer Guy win for most worthless.
I would like to think that phone guy was looking at something like Firstnet or similar related. I would assume it was a nervous response based on how he was I acting.
Same with hand sanitizer dude. Did a familiar action that he had done a million times because that's all the courage he could muster to be doing something
titsonritz
07-13-22, 18:48
I can’t figure out if Punisher Skull Phone Guy or Hand Sanitizer Guy win for most worthless.
They all looked disturbingly casual to me.
I can’t figure out if Punisher Skull Phone Guy or Hand Sanitizer Guy win for most worthless.
I think every officer that could stand in that hallway and hear the screams of the children and then more rifle shots, are the most worthless bags of flesh I have ever seen. The betrayal of everything those badges should stand for .
I have responded to more acts of mans inhumanity to man, I have heard the screams of the victims, seen children and mothers die, been hit with a second bomber as we rendered aid. I have never seen a single officer or EMS, show a sign of cowardliness. I saw the concern and stress in the eyes of my fellow officers and EMS.
I have cried as friends and family, cut down by terrorist as we laid them in the ground. I watched a family member become an old man in a few weeks, after his son was laid to rest. His son had 3 more days in a special ops unit and volunteered to Stay in Lebanon so a team mate could go to a family wedding.
All of that has cut a path through my soul as deep as the Colorado river cut through the land to form the Grand Canyon.
But until that video in the hallway, I have never witnessed the plague of cowardliness infect a group like in that hall.
I can’t figure out if Punisher Skull Phone Guy or Hand Sanitizer Guy win for most worthless.
Cop is husband of dying teacher
“Uvalde officer checking ‘Punisher’ phone ID’ed as husband of slain teacher Eva Mireles: Texas pol“
https://nypost.com/2022/07/13/uvalde-officer-checks-phone-with-punisher-lock-screen-during-texas-school-shooting/
His own wife and he still didn't go, unbelieveable................
Save dying kids; nope
Come into your home and take your guns without a warrant; no problem
I never understand why conservatives blindly support LEO. How do you fly a Gadsden Flag and a Blue Line Flag at the same time? How do you not see the irony?
Edit for typo
His own wife and he still didn't go, unbelieveable................
Yeah, I don't like to be the guy that claims "If that was ME I'd do [insert heroic act]", but I'm pretty sure I'd be "F you guys, I'm going...anyone coming with?" And if they tried to disarm me, I'd hope it would go to ground.
Not sure what force of nature stood them all down, but at some point I'm not afraid of anything. F you guys, fire me. Go ahead and shoot me...F you guys.
If kids didn't die because of their inaction, I'd actually feel sorry for some of them. The only thing good (and I hate to use the word good) to come from this is everyone is now seeing this video and it should have dramatic repercussions across the LE community nationwide.
If cops aren't gonna use those ARs and tac shit, they don't need it. If cops aren't gonna do it, don't tell us we can't have it. The "good cops" of the nation have my sympathy because they are going to feel mistrust for the next 10 years.
This is the "full length" video, all 1 hour 20 plus minutes. The final assault into the room was within the last 2 minutes of the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3poHE3nOb8
Most of the time, everyone was just standing around, walking back and forth, walking in circle, picking things up and put it down, pick it up again, move it a little and put it down.
The sound were garbled, maybe done intentionally. Every now and then you'd hear "master key", dozen of times.
Who is this unarmed guy holding back a couple BP guys that seemed to want to move forward??
Dennis.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220713/1fbf6f6800835fa004b811b5e06ab0c0.jpg
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Watching the full video above, he appeared to be some kind of paramedic. Through the garbled noise, I heard something like put the injured in here as he gestured to an area.
What words do I have in my vocabulary to describe how I feel about those first 7 officers that did essentially nothing but show up and collect a paycheck that day? Disgust, repugnance, revulsion, those all barely scratch the surface of the utter contempt I feel toward them.
I went through active shooter training sometime around 2013-2014 IIRC. One of the things that was driven home repeatedly, and I remember it quite clearly, to us was this; "You may be the first officer to arrive on scene. If you hear shooting, do not wait for any extended period for backup to arrive. Move immediately toward the gunfire and neutralize or eliminate the shooter". There were SEVEN officers that arrived within seconds of each other and were less than a hundred feet from where the shooting was obviously occurring. Two of them moved toward that direction rather quickly and one followed somewhat tentatively. The rest held back at or behind the cover of the corner. The three that at least advanced toward the room the shooting was coming from didn't do so with what appeared to be any type of plan or tactics. Perhaps none of them have ever had any type of active shooter training though I find that hard to believe. Even if they had no training, doing something in that situation would have been better than doing nothing.
All of them failed to do what they should have done and I cannot imagine how any of them can continue to live in this State, much less that community or so much as leave their homes. I can only hope that the screams they heard from down that hall and the carnage they surely saw afterwards, haunt them until the moment they draw their very last breath. Perhaps then they will receive forgiveness, but it won't be from me. That will be my one and only comment about them in this thread.
Perhaps none of them have ever had any type of active shooter training though I find that hard to believe.
I don't believe that either, in 2002 we had it in our academy and once back at my agency one of the first in house courses we went thru was our agency response to an active shooter. We even spent a full day walking through the half dozen elementary, middle and high schools in our city.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-13-22, 23:54
NExt three-gun match, I have to put a hand sanitizer on a stage...
Watching the full video above, he appeared to be some kind of paramedic. Through the garbled noise, I heard something like put the injured in here as he gestured to an area.
Why didn't someone knock him on his fat ass and cuff him up?
Pappabear, all I can say is, the badge goes over our hearts for a reason. There are still many LE that take that seriously, as well as many who have no idea what that means.
Yeah, I don't like to be the guy that claims "If that was ME I'd do [insert heroic act]", but I'm pretty sure I'd be "F you guys, I'm going...anyone coming with?" And if they tried to disarm me, I'd hope it would go to ground.
Not sure what force of nature stood them all down, but at some point I'm not afraid of anything. F you guys, fire me. Go ahead and shoot me...F you guys.
If kids didn't die because of their inaction, I'd actually feel sorry for some of them. The only thing good (and I hate to use the word good) to come from this is everyone is now seeing this video and it should have dramatic repercussions across the LE community nationwide.
If cops aren't gonna use those ARs and tac shit, they don't need it. If cops aren't gonna do it, don't tell us we can't have it. The "good cops" of the nation have my sympathy because they are going to feel mistrust for the next 10 years.
That's what I thought about Parkland. That this could happen post Parkland is all the more reason this a level of failure I can't comprehend. That it seems to be getting more attention than Parkland and is all on vid to see, may be the difference, but at this point, I have lost all hope of legit changes on that score.
joedirt199
07-14-22, 07:10
I think a lot of the hesitancy for officers to drive toward the gun fire stems with the lowering standards of firearms qualification. Most are close in static targets and fixed positions, once or twice a year, day qual and night qual. Most officers are not confident enough in their shooting skills to be effective and know that. We stopped shooting at 25 yards since people failed so hard to hit a stationary silloette in the body at that distance. And ofcourse all the experts tell you the deadly force encounter is going to occure right in front of you distance. I am sorry but some of these schools are huge and can you make a 50 yd shot on a moving bad guy with a pistol? If the officer never trains that way, they will never know. I used shoot IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge, 5k Run and Guns all before the great ammo hike and had a reputation at work as being to guy to go to if you had trouble shooting. I don't shoot near as much now but haven't lost much. Not every cop is a gun guy and it shows at every qualification.
Johnny Rico
07-14-22, 09:09
I think a lot of the hesitancy for officers to drive toward the gun fire stems with the lowering standards of firearms qualification. Most are close in static targets and fixed positions, once or twice a year, day qual and night qual. Most officers are not confident enough in their shooting skills to be effective and know that. We stopped shooting at 25 yards since people failed so hard to hit a stationary silloette in the body at that distance. And ofcourse all the experts tell you the deadly force encounter is going to occure right in front of you distance. I am sorry but some of these schools are huge and can you make a 50 yd shot on a moving bad guy with a pistol? If the officer never trains that way, they will never know. I used shoot IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge, 5k Run and Guns all before the great ammo hike and had a reputation at work as being to guy to go to if you had trouble shooting. I don't shoot near as much now but haven't lost much. Not every cop is a gun guy and it shows at every qualification.
A valid point to be sure, but that does not apply to the Uvalde cops. They weren't limited to Glocks with 10-lb triggers, but had optic equipped ARs. A 50 yard shot is perfectly feasible with the tools they had on hand. The failing here was cowardice and a lack of will.
Why didn't someone knock him on his fat ass and cuff him up?
What part are you referring to? The still frame above is from after the murderer was taken out.
I was with a border patrol agent shooting a match last night. He said their local HRT team had just finished training and guys were heading home and heard the call. So of course a couple guys rushed over to only be asked to stand down.
I guess the sheriff was first on the scene and didn’t have a radio with him. Bopunk sleepy town with guys with not a great deal of tactical training. Uh, just pass that on to a team that is HRT trained, but nooooo.
PB
What part are you referring to? The still frame above is from after the murderer was taken out.I stand corrected after watching a whole breakdown. I will edit my post above.
Dennis.
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Why didn't someone knock him on his fat ass and cuff him up?**Correction** that is a paramedic performing triage or similar AFTER the shooter was stopped.
Dennis.
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Pappabear, all I can say is, the badge goes over our hearts for a reason. There are still many LE that take that seriously, as well as many who have no idea what that means.
It sucks that these pussies give LE a shitty name, perspective. So many guys would have busted that shit down minute 4. Guy in charge could be the biggest pussy in the world, but let some other guys do their job.
It would ultra suck to be begging to go in and be stopped by a superior coward.
PB
Straight Shooter
07-14-22, 11:39
Im livid at these cowards. But man o man, they were badasses outside with parents, werent they?
Do any of yall think that ANY sort of punishment will eventually find its way to these schmucks? To the "leadership" that stopped them?
This has weighed heavier on my mind than any other incident, for some reason. Im so angry at these cops. SOMETHING HAS TO HAPPEN.
This is not the first time the police acted with cowardice during a school shooting.
It's a crying shame.
Unfortunately, the police are under no legal obligation to protect anyone.
Inkslinger
07-14-22, 11:52
Hopefully these cowards use there guns on themselves. I certainly wouldn’t want to spend the rest of my life being one of them.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220714/c47de357caf04e2a5fe2562e7081f040.jpg
titsonritz
07-14-22, 13:20
Mike Glover has a thing or two to say to/about the cowards. A bit long with breakdown of the newly released video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_f6lvwVyfE
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-14-22, 16:30
I was with a border patrol agent shooting a match last night. He said their local HRT team had just finished training and guys were heading home and heard the call. So of course a couple guys rushed over to only be asked to stand down.
I guess the sheriff was first on the scene and didn’t have a radio with him. Bopunk sleepy town with guys with not a great deal of tactical training. Uh, just pass that on to a team that is HRT trained, but nooooo.
PB
I watch the beginning parts and then the last 5 to 10 minutes, and I’m having a hard time picking out who is actually on the BREACH team.
Whether Parkland or here, or the riots that get out of hand in 2020, I always hear in my head Sergeant Hartman “ Why aren't you stomping Private Pyle's guts out?”.
Wasn’t there, but there had to be some serious things going on for them to act like they did.
If you submitted this as a script, it would get tossed as too much BS. From the doors- exterior and interior- to the hour long wait. That wait was so long, you’d lose a movie audience waiting for it.
I seriously can’t believe that cop cars haven’t been torched and people run out of town. What are the cops going to do, shoot at you?
Straight Shooter
07-14-22, 17:38
Mike Glover has a thing or two to say to/about the cowards. A bit long with breakdown of the newly released video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_f6lvwVyfE
Im telling yall know- if you DONT want to get F-upped & angry any more than many of us already are-DONT WATCH THIS.
Heads need to roll 'cause of this.
I really hope those cops are long gone. LIke run the F out of town and never coming back. I'd hate for one of those grieving parents to lose it and damage their own lives even more.
I still honestly can't believe none of those guys have chosen to savor a little hollow-point flavor. Not that I want them to really, I'm certainly not rooting for them to do it. I'm just saying that it wouldn't be unexpected after a failure of such magnitude. I'm trying to keep in mind that these are small town cops, not "tip of the LEO spear" big city SWAT. Not that that means they don't see their share of shit, but the training may not be there. In a way though small town makes it worse not to act, they knew a some of these families. Likely knew some of the kids.
I still kinda want to give these guys the benefit of the doubt, find some excuse for their actions, try to feel sorry for them. I just can't, that ship sailed a while back. The more that comes out the more unforgivable this all is.
That's what I thought about Parkland. That this could happen post Parkland is all the more reason this a level of failure I can't comprehend. That it seems to be getting more attention than Parkland and is all on vid to see, may be the difference, but at this point, I have lost all hope of legit changes on that score.
I know. But Parkland we were able to reconcile it was the RSO and the first responders from BSO. They other guys who showed up actually went in and did the job. Hard as it is to accept, this is an even larger, across the board failure of law enforcement.
And if this doesn't get everyone squared away, nothing will.
I really hope those cops are long gone. LIke run the F out of town and never coming back. I'd hate for one of those grieving parents to lose it and damage their own lives even more.
Yeah, even if they get fired, I can't imagine being a parent and running into them at a grocery store or something like that.
I know. But Parkland we were able to reconcile it was the RSO and the first responders from BSO. They other guys who showed up actually went in and did the job. Hard as it is to accept, this is an even larger, across the board failure of law enforcement.
And if this doesn't get everyone squared away, nothing will.
As did the border guys and like them, too little too late. On the grand scale, Parkland was a much larger failure from top to bottom of the PD, the school, and the FBI who paid out big time for it, which got no press. How often does anyone get the FBI to admit culpability and pay out? Never:
https://nypost.com/2022/03/16/feds-pay-128m-to-families-after-fbi-bungled-tips-on-parkland-shooting/
Why is it that every jackoff out to commit a mass shooting always dresses in a black mall ninja outfit?
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-14-22, 22:19
As did the border guys and like them, too little too late. On the grand scale, Parkland was a much larger failure from top to bottom of the PD, the school, and the FBI who paid out big time for it, which got no press. How often does anyone get the FBI to admit culpability and pay out? Never:
https://nypost.com/2022/03/16/feds-pay-128m-to-families-after-fbi-bungled-tips-on-parkland-shooting/
This happens all the time when the aggrieved are the right politics. The lefties in govt dole out money to lefties in legal firms representing grieving families. Denver just handed out $10million to dumbasses that got their rioting asses shot with tear gas. How much of that ends up in lawyers hands, which then use it to further fund their political causes.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-14-22, 22:20
Why is it that every jackoff out to commit a mass shooting always dresses in a black mall ninja outfit?
Highland park didn’t…. But we aren’t allowed to talk about that…
titsonritz
07-14-22, 22:37
ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY EIGHT ****ING YARDS!!!!
It brings tears to my eyes.
Why is it that every jackoff out to commit a mass shooting always dresses in a black mall ninja outfit?
Gamer shit off amazon.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-15-22, 08:03
ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY EIGHT ****ING YARDS!!!!
It brings tears to my eyes.
what?
what?
He's referring to the information from Mike Glover in his update to his first video review of the AAR/Uvalde video, posted earlier in this thread.
Below is the follow up, it's only 15 minutes or so, not as long as the first:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrCMWXfvAzU
148 yds referred to the policeman that spotted the killer OUTSIDE the school BEFORE he entered the building. It was determined that the policeman was 148 yds. away from the potential killer (seen armed with a long gun). The policeman asked his supervisor for the go ahead to shoot but he never received the approval. The policeman was armed with a long gun (presumably an AR).
Other point brought out in the follow up video was that the BORTAC guy with the plaid shirt and baseball cap that took a round through the cap (just a crease of the top of the head) was NOT the first guy in the room nor was he participated in the killing of the crazy mass murderer. That BORTAC gentleman was seen in the first video stacking up toward the rear of the stack by the double door at 12:47:10 REAL TIME (1:08:45 YOUTUBE point). I saw it and so can you if you watch closely. He then reposition himself to the other stack.
There were actually only three BORTAC officers that went through the door and ended the massacre.
The killer was hiding in a closet.
He's referring to the information from Mike Glover in his update to his first video review of the AAR/Uvalde video, posted earlier in this thread.
Below is the follow up, it's only 15 minutes or so, not as long as the first:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrCMWXfvAzU
148 yds referred to the policeman that spotted the killer OUTSIDE the school BEFORE he entered the building. It was determined that the policeman was 148 yds. away from the potential killer (seen armed with a long gun). The policeman asked his supervisor for the go ahead to shoot but he never received the approval. The policeman was armed with a long gun (presumably an AR).
Other point brought out in the follow up video was that the BORTAC guy with the plaid shirt and baseball cap that took a round through the cap (just a crease of the top of the head) was NOT the first guy in the room nor was he participated in the killing of the crazy mass murderer. That BORTAC gentleman was seen in the first video stacking up toward the rear of the stack. I saw it and so can you if you watch closely.
There were actually only three BORTAC officers that went through the door and ended the massacre.
The killer was hiding in a closet.
I'm gonna beat this to death, but what is their SOP for an active shooter? Anyone find/post that yet? Unless a very rare PD, we know what the SOP is and that aint it. Some have said that once the shooter went into the classroom it changed from an active shooter to a contained shooter, and the explains the waiting behavior, as covered via my pal Jim in recent show (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BzDL4Va5Mo&t=1360s). But, the above is clear as the ugly nose on my fugly, face, an active shooter... Yes, will still hold out benefit of the doubt as to exactly what the officer knew at that moment, but currently, until shown otherwise, I view it as a massive fail that could have ended it right there and then, followed by domino of massive failures due to factors discussed here already.
Rifleman_04
07-15-22, 10:13
That contained shooter excuse is horseshit.
That contained shooter excuse is horseshit.
I made no claims one way or another, my friend Jim did add some info that I do felt relevant as to how it could be viewed as such, and all my senses as a non LEO who has always given LE the benefit of the doubt is, it's total BS. My point was to make was, no matter what happened after he got in the school, no one can claim that misses opportunity was not a active shooter situation. That is my only point.
I am not as informed as some here on the subject so I gotta ask.
What did officer "148 yards" know at the time though? I mean "I see a guy with a gun acting hinky near a school." ain't a lethal use green light. He'd need more info and I don't know what else he had.
Don't get me wrong, I wish he had taken the shot too. But we all have the knowledge of what happened after that moment, the cop did not. I don't know what the cops knew at that exact moment in time. I'm legit asking for information here, not trying to make excuses for anyone.
What did officer "148 yards" know at the time though? I mean "I see a guy with a gun acting hinky near a school." ain't a lethal use green light. He'd need more info and I don't know what else he had.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but wasn’t the reason that the officer was responding to the area because the goblin had been shooting across the street at another building? If the officer was responding to someone shooting at a building and then sees the suspect with a rifle about to enter a school, could that be considered a green light for lethal force? I ask the question to those with more lethal force use experience than myself.
Rifleman_04
07-15-22, 11:07
I made no claims one way or another, my friend Jim did add some info that I do felt relevant as to how it could be viewed as such, and all my senses as a non LEO who has always given LE the benefit of the doubt is, it's total BS. My point was to make was, no matter what happened after he got in the school, no one can claim that misses opportunity was not a active shooter situation. That is my only point.
I know, Will. I’ve just seen that excuse posted a few places lately so I’m just making a point to call it what it really is. Horseshit.
Punisher cop deserves some slack. He was like the other victims of their official shit show.
https://www.kbtx.com/2022/07/14/uvalde-police-officer-who-drew-outrage-checking-his-phone-was-waiting-hear-his-dying-wife-during-shooting/
Some have said that once the shooter went into the classroom it changed from an active shooter to a contained shooter, and the explains the waiting behavior
I don’t see any difference between an active shooter and whatever a contained shooter is. Honestly I’ve never heard that used in any of the active shooter response training I’ve attended, but now I’ve been out of LE for many years now.
Back in my day the shooter was considered a deadly threat until they were no longer breathing. Even if they are no longer throwing shots, if they are standing in a room full of dead and dying kids when we made entry we were going to send him straight to hell.
Punisher cop deserves some slack. He was like the other victims of their official shit show.
https://www.kbtx.com/2022/07/14/uvalde-police-officer-who-drew-outrage-checking-his-phone-was-waiting-hear-his-dying-wife-during-shooting/
Maybe I’m just wired differently but with kids being slaughtered and now my wife bleeding out calling for help. None of those guys piled up in that hallway could of stopped me from going in and ending that nightmare.
Maybe I’m just wired differently but with kids being slaughtered and now my wife bleeding out calling for help. None of those guys piled up in that hallway could of stopped me from going in and ending that nightmare.
That is the reason for the "some slack".
Tend to suspect shooting the first one to intervene (likely making it clear it was going to happen would have sufficed) would have cleared the path to the door.
Maybe I’m just wired differently but with kids being slaughtered and now my wife bleeding out calling for help. None of those guys piled up in that hallway could of stopped me from going in and ending that nightmare.
Or die trying, but letting him go it alone should not be an option his brothers in blue should even consider. It's all so damn disheartening to see.
Police are some of the most pragmatic of all people in the FUSA, they know this nation is committing national suicide
but you expect them to charge to their death to save your kids ?
I know this will piss many people off but cops are not the heroic peace keepers of yesteryear, they are just working stiffs
who read the signs that say the FUSA is in it's death throes and there ain't no saving it, save your self !
I know some individual officers would do this but they know the dept and city government will let you burn if you don't
pull it off perfectly and still live through the experience , your on your own.
That is just the state of affairs in this country now days, convince me I'm wrong !
Leaveammoforme
07-15-22, 14:13
Police are some of the most pragmatic of all people in the FUSA, they know this nation is committing national suicide
but you expect them to charge to their death to save your kids ?
I know this will piss many people off but cops are not the heroic peace keepers of yesteryear, they are just working stiffs
who read the signs that say the FUSA is in it's death throes and there ain't no saving it, save your self !
I know some individual officers would do this but they know the dept and city government will let you burn if you don't
pull it off perfectly and still live through the experience , your on your own.
That is just the state of affairs in this country now days, convince me I'm wrong !
Um, they were cowards plain and simple. It doesn't go any deeper than that. No grand conspiracy or deep state black flag. Just cowards leading cowards and doing coward stuff.
Police are some of the most pragmatic of all people in the FUSA, they know this nation is committing national suicide
but you expect them to charge to their death to save your kids ?
I know this will piss many people off but cops are not the heroic peace keepers of yesteryear, they are just working stiffs
who read the signs that say the FUSA is in it's death throes and there ain't no saving it, save your self !
I know some individual officers would do this but they know the dept and city government will let you burn if you don't
pull it off perfectly and still live through the experience , your on your own.
That is just the state of affairs in this country now days, convince me I'm wrong !
The bigger issue is the LE role in making sure others are unable to defend themselves. That has always made the coming to help angle irrelevant whether that help arrived in seconds, minutes, hours, or never. There are fewer and fewer ignoring that last part as things move along.
Why is it that every jackoff out to commit a mass shooting always dresses in a black mall ninja outfit?
https://www.fox3now.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/robert-crimo.png
They edited those out of the linked video.
https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2022/07/12/uvalde-school-shooting-video-of-robb-elementary-shows-police-response/65370384007/
“We also have removed the sound of children screaming…”
Everyone in that hall should be forced to sit and watch the unedited, full audio version every day to start their shift. :mad:
Punisher cop deserves some slack. He was like the other victims of their official shit show.
https://www.kbtx.com/2022/07/14/uvalde-police-officer-who-drew-outrage-checking-his-phone-was-waiting-hear-his-dying-wife-during-shooting/
Was he? I mean maybe I've done too many investigations and read too many reports, but my first and admittedly jaded thought was "Divorce is expensive." Am I the only one whose mind went there? :confused:
Couple things...
1. I cant think of any sort of situation where a supervisor not on scene is going to give an officer the green light to smoke someone. That is a decision that the officer on scene needs to make, good or bad. The fact that the officer thought to ask over the radio is mind boggling.
2. The only way an active shooter can turn into a barricade situation is if they are in an isolated area away from victims or you know FOR CERTAIN that any victims with the shooter are already dead. Neither one of those situations existed here.
Police are some of the most pragmatic of all people in the FUSA, they know this nation is committing national suicide
but you expect them to charge to their death to save your kids ?
I know this will piss many people off but cops are not the heroic peace keepers of yesteryear, they are just working stiffs
who read the signs that say the FUSA is in it's death throes and there ain't no saving it, save your self !
I know some individual officers would do this but they know the dept and city government will let you burn if you don't
pull it off perfectly and still live through the experience , your on your own.
That is just the state of affairs in this country now days, convince me I'm wrong !
Not gonna try and convince you of anything, but I know guys who RIGHT NOW are ready to trade up to save the kids they are responsible for protecting. your post would be offensive to them.
Couple things...
1. I cant think of any sort of situation where a supervisor not on scene is going to give an officer the green light to smoke someone. That is a decision that the officer on scene needs to make, good or bad. The fact that the officer thought to ask over the radio is mind boggling.
Unless I am mistaken, that's also the cop that was afraid of hitting bystanders so if that was a concern why was he asking to shoot? Or is one claim, the other,, or both just some face saving BS?
Or die trying, but letting him go it alone should not be an option his brothers in blue should even consider. It's all so damn disheartening to see.
The officer who KNEW his wife was in there just stood there, “restrained” by the fat dude with just a hand on his shoulder. All I can say is that for me to be “restrained” in that situation I would have had to been dog piled and hog tied. I just don’t get it, the WTHs just keep coming with every bit of information released. I can understand why a real deal door kicker like Mike Glover is so pissed off and emotional about it. He said he has scheduled free training classes for LE and no one shows up.
titsonritz
07-15-22, 17:44
He's referring to the information from Mike Glover in his update to his first video review of the AAR/Uvalde video, posted earlier in this thread.
Below is the follow up, it's only 15 minutes or so, not as long as the first:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrCMWXfvAzU
148 yds referred to the policeman that spotted the killer OUTSIDE the school BEFORE he entered the building. It was determined that the policeman was 148 yds. away from the potential killer (seen armed with a long gun). The policeman asked his supervisor for the go ahead to shoot but he never received the approval. The policeman was armed with a long gun (presumably an AR).
Other point brought out in the follow up video was that the BORTAC guy with the plaid shirt and baseball cap that took a round through the cap (just a crease of the top of the head) was NOT the first guy in the room nor was he participated in the killing of the crazy mass murderer. That BORTAC gentleman was seen in the first video stacking up toward the rear of the stack by the double door at 12:47:10 REAL TIME (1:08:45 YOUTUBE point). I saw it and so can you if you watch closely. He then reposition himself to the other stack.
There were actually only three BORTAC officers that went through the door and ended the massacre.
The killer was hiding in a closet.
That is correct on the 148.
Thanks for posting that I had now seen his follow up video. Mike brought up something else I had not considered up until now when stated be believes what transpired may not have been just incompetency and cowardice but also widespread corruption with the local department(s).
I can understand why a real deal door kicker like Mike Glover is so pissed off and emotional about it. He said he has scheduled free training classes for LE and no one shows up.
That unfortunately is a very real thing that I've seen time and time again.
I've seen cops who refuse to join a carbine club because they don't want to shoot with "civies", so then a special "LE Only" night is created and NOBODY shows.
titsonritz
07-15-22, 18:08
I am not as informed as some here on the subject so I gotta ask.
What did officer "148 yards" know at the time though? I mean "I see a guy with a gun acting hinky near a school." ain't a lethal use green light. He'd need more info and I don't know what else he had.
Don't get me wrong, I wish he had taken the shot too. But we all have the knowledge of what happened after that moment, the cop did not. I don't know what the cops knew at that exact moment in time. I'm legit asking for information here, not trying to make excuses for anyone.
He had his long gun out for reason, the reason was multiple 911 calls about an active shooter at the school. The POS scumbag had crashed truck he was driving, shot at the two dudes that were coming to help him, jumps the school fence and put rounds on the school building before entering the school and doing his evil deeds. That cop is clueless ****ing idiot, he could ended it all right there on the spot before it started but he choked, in a long list of ****ers choking.
148 yards...give me break. Three weekends ago I shot under NODs for literally the 2nd time in my life and had zero problem putting rounds on 1/3 size human silhouette at 200 yards offhand in pitch black conditions, using a brand new weapon that I sighted hours prior.
titsonritz
07-15-22, 18:12
I can understand why a real deal door kicker like Mike Glover is so pissed off and emotional about it. He said he has scheduled free training classes for LE and no one shows up.
That unfortunately is a very real thing that I've seen time and time again.
I've seen cops who refuse to join a carbine club because they don't want to shoot with "civies", so then a special "LE Only" night is created and NOBODY shows.
We were talking about that when I was up there. It is pathetic and it disgusts me. It's not just cops, all the imma-gonnas.
https://cerberus-training.com/
"A lot of second guessing, finger pointing, and criticism...with some politics added in. Less talk, more doing. Cerberus Training Group has teamed up with Fieldcraft Survival, to provide free firearms training to any SRO (School Resource Officer), school staff and teachers. With active shooter training coming soon. We don't have all the answers, but we will be out there training school staff to be better prepared, both local and all over the Northwest.
Contact us direct for more information, all contacts will remain confidential."
I was talking to a retired Scottsdale PD LT that said all training changed after Columbine. It is no longer wait around... Also said another local city PD has extremely controlling leadership. Cops have to check with a superior to arrest anyone-anyone. Said they called in the PD to a crime in the other jurisdiction, and they said "arrest him" they replied I have to call it in first, I can't arrest him".
Seems like this type leadership stifles good cops. Old school mentality ?
And to pile on Titsonritz post, my SPD buddy told me long ago, everyone has plenty of range ammo and its the same guys month end and out that use their free ammo. Most dont shoot their free ammo and range time.
You can't watch that video and UNSEEN it. Thats why this thread is on fire. Enough venting for now.
PB
WillieThom
07-15-22, 19:56
Punisher cop deserves some slack. He was like the other victims of their official shit show.
https://www.kbtx.com/2022/07/14/uvalde-police-officer-who-drew-outrage-checking-his-phone-was-waiting-hear-his-dying-wife-during-shooting/
Because all of us are going to wait to hear from our dying wife instead of whacking the dirtbag responsible so we can try to affect some sort of meaningful rescue…
Sorry his wife died. But no slack. No quarter given. He can eat a dick.
He had his long gun out for reason, the reason was multiple 911 calls about an active shooter at the school. The POS scumbag had crashed truck he was driving, shot at the two dudes that were coming to help him, jumps the school fence and put rounds on the school building before entering the school and doing his evil deeds. That cop is clueless ****ing idiot, he could ended it all right there on the spot before it started but he choked, in a long list of ****ers choking.
148 yards...give me break. Three weekends ago I shot under NODs for literally the 2nd time in my life and had zero problem putting rounds on 1/3 size human silhouette at 200 yards offhand in pitch black conditions, using a brand new weapon that I sighted hours prior.
C’mon man. The fact that you’re here means that you have some interest in shooting and probably work at it. We don’t know the level of proficiency for this cop or if he has good or bad reasons for not being more proficient if he is in fact lacking. What we do know is that their qual doesn’t have them shoot past 100yds so not only is he adding 50% more distance into that shot, he’s doing it against a moving target with potential innocents in the background. Throwing nods on for your second time and blasting away is not the same level of increased risk in this situation.
Sure it was a bitch move to request permission, but let’s at least consider all of the known variables.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not gonna try and convince you of anything, but I know guys who RIGHT NOW are ready to trade up to save the kids they are responsible for protecting. your post would be offensive to them.
Not disputing you on the people you know.
With that being said,
I avoid using terms such as all, every, 100%, but I would feel safe in betting every single LE related to this was making the same claim prior to that day.
In all honesty, I would be floored if most/all of them still wouldn't make the claim especially if they were self aggrandizing in front of someone that didn't know their history.
We were talking about that when I was up there. It is pathetic and it disgusts me. It's not just cops, all the imma-gonnas.
https://cerberus-training.com/
"A lot of second guessing, finger pointing, and criticism...with some politics added in. Less talk, more doing. Cerberus Training Group has teamed up with Fieldcraft Survival, to provide free firearms training to any SRO (School Resource Officer), school staff and teachers. With active shooter training coming soon. We don't have all the answers, but we will be out there training school staff to be better prepared, both local and all over the Northwest.
Contact us direct for more information, all contacts will remain confidential."
A side note is that the small group of school personnel who actually get permission to train and carry, and actually do it on their own time even though it's not their job, miss out on training with actual police officers who they would presumably need to interact with in any real situation.
Any SROs should be REQUIRED to train with any school personnel who also receive training and carry on school property just so everyone is on the same page as far as what is expected of everyone.
C’mon man. The fact that you’re here means that you have some interest in shooting and probably work at it. We don’t know the level of proficiency for this cop or if he has good or bad reasons for not being more proficient if he is in fact lacking. What we do know is that their qual doesn’t have them shoot past 100yds so not only is he adding 50% more distance into that shot, he’s doing it against a moving target with potential innocents in the background. Throwing nods on for your second time and blasting away is not the same level of increased risk in this situation.
Sure it was a bitch move to request permission, but let’s at least consider all of the known variables.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Soooo, if he believed he couldn't make the shot why was he asking to take it?
I have to assume some New Yorkers and similar locales are hoping in vain that this is some new turn in US policing where not risking the shooting of bystanders makes the leap from written/spoken claims to real life.
Soooo, if he believed he couldn't make the shot why was he asking to take it?
I have to assume some New Yorkers and similar locales are hoping in vain that this is some new turn in US policing where not risking the shooting of bystanders makes the leap from written/spoken claims to real life.
Release of liability? Even to a minor extent, if he told his supervisor that he had a shot but wasn’t sure he could make it and got the green light, at least then some of the responsibility is taken from him whether morally or legally.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Release of liability? Even to a minor extent, if he told his supervisor that he had a shot but wasn’t sure he could make it and got the green light, at least then some of the responsibility is taken from him whether morally or legally.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Maybe morally, but(and I realize every cop isn't alike) that would seem to be a rarity in practice.
Legally, I honestly can't recall a cop being on the hook criminally or civilly for shooting bystanders with even suspensions and terminations seeming to be somewhat rare.
Maybe morally, but(and I realize every cop isn't alike) that would seem to be a rarity in practice.
Legally, I honestly can't recall a cop being on the hook criminally or civilly for shooting bystanders with even suspensions and terminations seeming to be somewhat rare.
Right there with you.
It's a "no win", cops need to realize they are screwed no matter what they do, or don't do, so they might as well do what is right. I'd rather get review boards, suspensions and all the rest knowing I actually saved some kids. I could live with all of it, if I actually managed to save some kids.
I think I could respond to every interview question with "Sorry, I really thought I was supposed to be saving kids." I can get a job being the night manager of Chic Fil A and make about the same kind of money. I realize the really young guys have grown up in a bizarre world that espouses bizarre ideas, but if you can't figure out the answer to "I am a police officer because..." then you probably shouldn't be one.
Hey Steyr,
Take a break from the sad and upsetting topic and check out a new watch I found you in the watch thread :)
Yeah, like I said it would piss some off but the one who would lay it all on the line are a small
percentage in the long blue line, they know it, and so do you.
To the vast majority it is now just a job no matter how much zeal they began with, and going
home at the end of shift trumps everything else.
Mere words cannot capture the cynicism that infects the national psyche .
From the videos it looks like his backstop was probably brick wall.
Id be slinging 9mm at the guy if I only had my Glock 17.
titsonritz
07-15-22, 21:51
C’mon man. The fact that you’re here means that you have some interest in shooting and probably work at it. We don’t know the level of proficiency for this cop or if he has good or bad reasons for not being more proficient if he is in fact lacking. What we do know is that their qual doesn’t have them shoot past 100yds so not only is he adding 50% more distance into that shot, he’s doing it against a moving target with potential innocents in the background. Throwing nods on for your second time and blasting away is not the same level of increased risk in this situation.
Sure it was a bitch move to request permission, but let’s at least consider all of the known variables.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Point being that is not a difficult shot, why does this guy have a "weapon of war" if he doesn't know how to use it? The turds what to take my shit because only police and military should have an aSsAuLt wEaPoN. Here's a thought...Why don't we round up all the scary black guns from all the cops until such time they can demonstrate competence with the tool? No, sorry a 100 yard qual doesn't mean competence. We can exclude SWAT cops and assume they got where they are because they know how to shoot a damn rifle and think for themselves. A little common sense...for the children.
Averageman
07-15-22, 22:11
Whenever I hear/think about someone asking permission to fire, I think of the GWOT ROE.
joedirt199
07-15-22, 22:41
Not hard to find supervisors who climbed the ladder and can't make a decision for themselves without having to call up the chain for confirmation. Hell I hear the new guys asking for permission to handle calls outside their assigned areas, handle calls over the phone, or assist on calls. Shit back in the day we just did it or said we were doing it on the radio. I can't even have lunch with my supervisor buddies because their phones blow up with deputies calling. Not even for questions, just calling to say "hey boss, this is what I got." They need reasurence that the decision they are making is good with them.
But with as much scrutiny as LE gets, can they really be blamed? I’m not saying that we should be ok with it, but societal pressures may VERY well be a co tributing factor and bashing the police on that one won’t solve shit.
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But with as much scrutiny as LE gets, can they really be blamed? I’m not saying that we should be ok with it, but societal pressures may VERY well be a co tributing factor and bashing the police on that one won’t solve shit.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes.
Again "I became a police officer because..."
If you can finish the sentence then go forth and do, if you cannot, find something else.
Not saying they aren't getting f'ed over, but honestly everyone is getting f'ed over right now. Somewhere is a person in government earning the cost of my house in annual salary with a benefits package I'd never get close to and they qualified because they were transgendered.
The worst hell in my life was realizing I was smarter than most of my bosses, in most of my jobs. My immediate thought was "Well why aren't YOU working for ME, then I remembered." I had a handful of jobs where my boss was much smarter than me, I learned a lot of things simply by working with them and they made me better at my job. And not once did I feel frustrated and angry.
Hey Steyr,
Take a break from the sad and upsetting topic and check out a new watch I found you in the watch thread :)
Saw it, thanks.
titsonritz
07-16-22, 16:00
What ever happened to the scumbags grandmother? Is she still hanging on or did she die? If still alive is there a prognosis?
Straight Shooter
07-16-22, 16:20
What ever happened to the scumbags grandmother? Is she still hanging on or did she die? If still alive is there a prognosis?
Seems I read a couple weeks ago she left the hospital? Hope Im not misremembering.
Anyway- for DAYS after the murders, the "media" was STILL reporting he had "killed his grandmother", when she in fact was & as far as I know still is.
A quick google searched yielded many news reports of his grandmother's release from the hospital.
Averageman
07-16-22, 18:43
I will say this again.
The whole idea of asking for permission to fire is the result of ROE during the GWOT.
You could see something totally F'ed up and still have to call it in and beg for a shot.
A lot of times that was totally counter to mission being accomplished, but that's the way it was and likely still is.
Some guy moving from .Mil to LEO is going to default to his training and that's how you get there from here.
I will say this again.
The whole idea of asking for permission to fire is the result of ROE during the GWOT.
You could see something totally F'ed up and still have to call it in and beg for a shot.
A lot of times that was totally counter to mission being accomplished, but that's the way it was and likely still is.
Some guy moving from .Mil to LEO is going to default to his training and that's how you get there from here.
Or cops being put on social trial every time they shoot someone…
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Averageman
07-16-22, 19:16
You're going on trial for any bullet you send down range as a Cop. Someone is going to have it on video and LeBron James will give his expert testimony about what a racist post you are. That's pretty much a given.
Asking for permission won't make you more or less guilty and it certainly won't absolve you of blame.
I've had to look down the barrel of a 2S1 and call for permission to engage, I didn't get it until he popped a hatch and started ranging me with binos. Being direct rather than indirect he wanted to do the math rather than look down the barrel and send one at me.
john armond
07-16-22, 19:18
Maybe morally, but(and I realize every cop isn't alike) that would seem to be a rarity in practice.
Legally, I honestly can't recall a cop being on the hook criminally or civilly for shooting bystanders with even suspensions and terminations seeming to be somewhat rare.
The Atlanta cop, Garrett Rolf, who shot Rawshard Brooks in the Wendy’s parking lot, that set off waves of “peaceful protests” was not only charged with shooting Brooks but also charged because one of his rounds struck an occupied vehicle…not even another person, just a vehicle. So, yes, there are DAs that will gleefully charge a PO…warranted or not. Hell, a former DA where I was an officer 20+ years ago stated that police officers are people that wanted to be lawyers, but weren’t smart enough, and that his favorite thing is prosecuting officers.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-17-22, 11:07
Police shoot one druggie gangster and people lose their minds. Cops let 21 people be killed as they stand around and crickets….
Texas House committee to release Uvalde shooting report
https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/uvalde-shooting-texas-house-report/index.html
The report is expected to focus on the facts of the attack, include a chronological sequence of events, a timeline, a law enforcement manifest, and details on the shooter, a source previously told CNN. It is expected to clarify conflicting accounts of what happened, include verbatim quotes from sworn testimony, and show that the law enforcement failure that day was much greater than one person or one agency, one source has said.
Reports out.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11022175/Uvalde-families-set-meet-investigation-committee-ahead-release-report.html
The blistering 77-page document blasted 'system failures and egregious poor decision making' by nearly all those in power during the May 24 attack.
The report said that officers 'failed to prioritize saving the lives of innocent victims over their own safety,' amidst a chaotic response scene where the people in positions of authority assumed somebody else was in charge.
The 149 US Border Patrol agents and 91 state police were among nearly 400 on the day who should have helped with the 'unfolding chaos', the file noted.
400 ****ing cops...
One crazy punk held off almost 400 police. Imagine what what a team of terrorists (like in Nairobi Dusit D2) could do.
titsonritz
07-17-22, 15:21
One crazy punk held off almost 400 police. Imagine what what a team of terrorists (like in Nairobi Dusit D2) could do.
Or thousands of pockets of twenty or so guys saying "No, Fcvk you, you are not taking our guns".
Cops love wasting resources. Watch any first Amend. Audit and the camera guy is surrounded by 4 cops. Zero reason to have that show of force. Even after an incident there is like 10 cops standing around, dude it's code 4, resume Normal ops
One crazy punk held off almost 400 police. Imagine what what a team of terrorists (like in Nairobi Dusit D2) could do.
I am sure they are watching closely
One crazy punk held off almost 400 police. Imagine what what a team of terrorists (like in Nairobi Dusit D2) could do.
Despite the video, I still have full faith in LEOs its dwindling though. There are still plenty of honorable cops being hero's everyday drooling to interrupt a thugs life, we just don't see them because they it's not chaos like the news wants. I will be the first to dog them, but also give them the sweat equity they deserve.
Reports out.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11022175/Uvalde-families-set-meet-investigation-committee-ahead-release-report.html
400 ****ing cops...
The only reason I now view this as worse then Parkland is that it happened after Parkland. I suspect largely due to intentionally making sure LE is paralyzed when it comes down to be decisive and knowing, consciously or not, that their risks of being criticized, losing a job, or going to jail much less likley from doing nothing vs something, so they don't do anything. That's exactly what the progressives, the media, the chit bag politicians, etc wanted to achieve, and they have. That's not an excuse for the LEOs there that day, it's simply an explanation of a deeper problem that the report will discuss.
pointblank4445
07-18-22, 17:28
I suspect largely due to intentionally making sure LE is paralyzed when it comes down to be decisive and knowing, consciously or not, that their risks of being criticized, losing a job, or going to jail much less likley from doing nothing vs something, so they don't do anything. That's exactly what the progressives, the media, the chit bag politicians, etc wanted to achieve, and they have. That's not an excuse for the LEOs there that day, it's simply an explanation of a deeper problem that the report will discuss.
This is dead-on.
And if y'all think this is bad...wait till you see the next crop coming into the job.
This is dead-on.
And if y'all think this is bad...wait till you see the next crop coming into the job.
I wish I were wrong. It would not be as difficult to fix if were as "simple" as poor coordination, tactics, poor decisions made by a few key people on the ground, etc. leading to that FUBAR event. It runs far deeper then that.
Parkland could have been put down to a one of event perhaps, but this one nails the coffin that it's truly systemic.
I am not sure how we can fix the cops in this country at this point in time.
But I am pretty sure that bad things and I mean really bad things are coming, no matter who is in power. I see 2 options, one the Marxist win and the police become the uniformed arm of the KGB, oops I mean the FBI. The second option is we take the country back and the Police are going to have to be like BOPE in Brazil to restore order.
john armond
07-18-22, 19:03
This is dead-on.
And if y'all think this is bad...wait till you see the next crop coming into the job.
It’s not only that, it’s the people being promoted to supervisory roles now. They don’t want to make a decision for fear of backlash. Just the other week, I showed the second in command where I am that something he implemented was not only against policy, but also illegal. My job is to point these things out, and if I was consulted prior to the implementation, I would have said no from the start. Instead of reversing his decision immediately after I showed him, on paper, where he was wrong he said he had to talk to higher up officials for clarification before making a decision. Well, they appear to have clarified I was correct, because the implementation was reversed after he talked to them. Unfortunately it took a week from the time I told him to reverse the implementation.
No one wants to be the one to make the decision anymore. It’s easier to walk the center line and try to not piss anyone off and get the next promotion before any of your lack of decision making abilities cause a problem.
pointblank4445
07-18-22, 19:30
I am not sure how we can fix the cops in this country at this point in time.
The public won't allow a climate where those who deserve to lead actually feel that responsibility is worth it.
Until that happens we'll have the same bloated, bureaucratic cluster f*** creating messes for bystanders to be outraged about.
This is never gonna leave him
“No amount of hand sanitizer is going to wash off those hands in Uvalde. None,” tweeted Jack Posobic, senior editor of the conservative news site Human Events.“
https://nypost.com/2022/07/18/uvalde-officer-who-used-hand-sanitizer-during-massacre-ided-as-eric-gonzales/
I am not sure how we can fix the cops in this country at this point in time.
But I am pretty sure that bad things and I mean really bad things are coming, no matter who is in power. I see 2 options, one the Marxist win and the police become the uniformed arm of the KGB, oops I mean the FBI. The second option is we take the country back and the Police are going to have to be like BOPE in Brazil to restore order.
As cops are ultimately part of the culture they come from/live in, without in a shift in the culture, not gonna improve. Criminals getting "better" at being criminals, cops getting less effective at their jobs, leads to exactly what we are seeing, crime going up again after decades of it falling, and or, being steady, depending on crime and or locations.
Only good news is seems to me many people starting to "get" it and pushing back, some times rationally some times not so much.
Whether it's too little too late is the real Q. I need to get back on getting my perm residency visa in Panama...
dwhitehorne
07-19-22, 10:09
No one wants to be the one to make the decision anymore. It’s easier to walk the center line and try to not piss anyone off and get the next promotion before any of your lack of decision making abilities cause a problem.
This is the answer to everything. I retired 2 years ago after 26 years. At least when I started if the Chief was worthless it really didn't matter because the Patrol Sergeants ran the job. There is absolutely no ground up leadership in LE today and it has been at least a 20 year shift. Some departments have MPO's or Corporals or whatever title they use but the first line supervisor use to set the tone for how the squad worked. In the past 20 years apathy has taken over and those lazy officers that sat around and never answered the radio or marked off the radio for endless follow up eventually get promoted. Now they are in command and setting the tone. The officers that would self initiate work were labeled "Cowboys" and marginalized.
I was a patrol officer for 11 years before I got promoted to Sergeant. I never received any type of leadership training in that time. After I was promoted, it took almost a year before I was able to attend the 40 hour basic supervisory course that was mandated in the General Orders. All the basic supervisor class covered was admin stuff on writing people up and doing time sheets.
Any active threat scene in a cluster. The officers made a quick entry and got bogged down immediately after receiving fire. That is typical once incoming fire is received especially with individuals on mixed teams from other departments. Any military or LE operation succeeds or fails based on the on scene leaders abilities to adapt to the situation and continue forward with the objective. In todays LE environment those first line leaders that take the initiative just don't exist anymore in my experience. Having been out of the USMC for 30 years I hope our military has not gotten the same.
No idea how to fix it because the person who graduate last in my academy class became our Chief of Police after a career of mediocrity. With people like that in command I don't see how it can change. David
This is the answer to everything. I retired 2 years ago after 26 years. At least when I started if the Chief was worthless it really didn't matter because the Patrol Sergeants ran the job. There is absolutely no ground up leadership in LE today and it has been at least a 20 year shift. Some departments have MPO's or Corporals or whatever title they use but the first line supervisor use to set the tone for how the squad worked. In the past 20 years apathy has taken over and those lazy officers that sat around and never answered the radio or marked off the radio for endless follow up eventually get promoted. Now they are in command and setting the tone. The officers that would self initiate work were labeled "Cowboys" and marginalized.
I was a patrol officer for 11 years before I got promoted to Sergeant. I never received any type of leadership training in that time. After I was promoted, it took almost a year before I was able to attend the 40 hour basic supervisory course that was mandated in the General Orders. All the basic supervisor class covered was admin stuff on writing people up and doing time sheets.
Any active threat scene in a cluster. The officers made a quick entry and got bogged down immediately after receiving fire. That is typical once incoming fire is received especially with individuals on mixed teams from other departments. Any military or LE operation succeeds or fails based on the on scene leaders abilities to adapt to the situation and continue forward with the objective. In todays LE environment those first line leaders that take the initiative just don't exist anymore in my experience. Having been out of the USMC for 30 years I hope our military has not gotten the same.
No idea how to fix it because the person who graduate last in my academy class became our Chief of Police after a career of mediocrity. With people like that in command I don't see how it can change. David
Which is ultimately what I covered in #140. It's all under that umbrella in my view. The progressives succeeded in their goal of making most PDs and those working in them, regardless of rank, invective to do the job, especially when the SHTF events which magnifies it all for all to see.
They had an SOP that was as clear as the ugly nose on my fugly face, and they didn't follow it. Sure, we can add in the realities of the confusion, fog o war, and that which must be awful, and then made worse by competencies , but there was not one person their who didn't know the SOP for an active shooter which means what it means, so (1) they can claim they all thought it was no an active shooter and no one will believe that or (2) they didn't know what the SOP for an active shooter was, in which case they should be fired on the spot.
I do not blame every LEO who was there, that would be ignorant, but there's no doubt a large number of them actively and consciously decided not to follow the SOP which translates into, dead cops are preferable to dead kids in such an event.
That's a horrible spot to be in as an LEO, but I do know all the LEOs I know well aware and totally accepting of that reality.
Sioux warrior's Poem:
Per the Today Is A Good Day To Die
"O-ka-hey!", the Sioux warrior's cry,
"Today is a good day to die!"
Tribal drums beat along banks of the river,
White mists drift upon the turquoise-blue,
They take their aim with bow and quiver,
Ready to fight for a purpose, free and true.
"O-ka-hey!", the Sioux warrior's cry,
"Today is a good day to die!"
Into the heart of battle they will ride,
Mounted upon a fearless palomino horse,
Lead by their ancient spirit guide,
He courageously braves his course.
"O-ka-hey!", the Sioux warrior's cry,
"Today is a good day to die!"
Blood-stained fields of dry autumn maize,
Was predicted by spirit guides to happen soon,
A golden sun rises in the morning haze,
And sets on darker days of many moon.
"O-ka-hey!", the Sioux warrior's cry,
"Today is a good day to die!"
titsonritz
07-19-22, 13:37
This is never gonna leave him
“No amount of hand sanitizer is going to wash off those hands in Uvalde. None,” tweeted Jack Posobic, senior editor of the conservative news site Human Events.“
https://nypost.com/2022/07/18/uvalde-officer-who-used-hand-sanitizer-during-massacre-ided-as-eric-gonzales/
A one-time recipient of a medal of valor for “bravery in the line of duty.”
WTF...is that equivalent to a participation trophy in Uvalde?
dwhitehorne
07-19-22, 15:50
A one-time recipient of a medal of valor for “bravery in the line of duty.”
WTF...is that equivalent to a participation trophy in Uvalde?
From my experience many awards are based off if the supervisor put you in for one. David
From my experience many awards are based off if the supervisor put you in for one. David
Absolutely true. Also, how many others were put in for that period, and is there a "we need to put more people in for awards, the patrol group hasn't in awhile, etc" type of vibe going on. Anyone can be a hero or zero at any given time ( I've been both, in the same shift even), and wrong guys get the goodies as often as the right guys get kicked in the nuts.
I never judged anyone based on awards, and put plenty of people in for them. Some real heroics got shitcanned, and some agents who were nothing special, but had a good day, got their award. You just never know. Anyway, the video speaks for itself and is hard to watch.
The 'Vibe is back from exile, with a pertinent question:
Surely the police waited 77 minutes, doing nothing vs. the Shooter.
But at the 77 minute mark, they did indeed go in and deal with him. I've been curious: what was the impetus for action at the 77 minute mark? Did something happen to prompt the action? Does anybody know?
The 'Vibe is back from exile, with a pertinent question:
Surely the police waited 77 minutes, doing nothing vs. the Shooter.
But at the 77 minute mark, they did indeed go in and deal with him. I've been curious: what was the impetus for action at the 77 minute mark? Did something happen to prompt the action? Does anybody know?
According to reports, that's when the BORTAC three were finally made aware that there were dying students still in the room with the shooter. Allegedly, to that point they were under the impression that the shooter was barricaded and that there weren't any students in the room with him, at least not alive.
According to reports, that's when the BORTAC three were finally made aware that there were dying students still in the room with the shooter. Allegedly, to that point they were under the impression that the shooter was barricaded and that there weren't any students in the room with him, at least not alive.
Supposedly the BORTAC guys did so against orders, but not sure if that's been confirmed.
Article in The Federalist claims that speedy executions would deter mass shooters.
The Federalist routinely publishes a vast concourse of intellectual oatmeal, but this one is noteworthy for its disdain of reality.
Mass shooters typically are suicidal. Few intend to survive their expedition. This is what makes them most dangerous. And empirically speaking, few do survive; either they are killed, or they commit suicide at the end of the carnage. The Parkland shooter is anomolous for leaving the scene, and for having his fate decided by a jury.
No doubt, speedy execution would deter some kinds of crime. It would deter, for instance, the teaching of critical race theory. It would deter the use of the wrong bathroom by the gender-fluid. It would deter joining or forming a labor union. Perhaps to a lesser degree, it would deter the practice of religions other than evangelical Protestantism. (We may yet have opportunities to test these hypotheses).
But to deter suicidal nihilists bent on mass murder as their final act? No, and we will have to do better.
Article in The Federalist claims that speedy executions would deter mass shooters.
The Federalist routinely publishes a vast concourse of intellectual oatmeal, but this one is noteworthy for its disdain of reality.
Mass shooters typically are suicidal. Few intend to survive their expedition. This is what makes them most dangerous. And empirically speaking, few do survive; either they are killed, or they commit suicide at the end of the carnage. The Parkland shooter is anomolous for leaving the scene, and for having his fate decided by a jury.
No doubt, speedy execution would deter some kinds of crime. It would deter, for instance, the teaching of critical race theory. It would deter the use of the wrong bathroom by the gender-fluid. It would deter joining or forming a labor union. Perhaps to a lesser degree, it would deter the practice of religions other than evangelical Protestantism. (We may yet have opportunities to test these hypotheses).
But to deter suicidal nihilists bent on mass murder as their final act? No, and we will have to do better.
Don't know about deterence. For me it's about putting em down. "We don't want to house you, feed you, or tolerate your continued existence on this earth."
I say, live or dead, throw em into a woodchipper at the county dump. Don't even give em a grave, treat em like the rest of society's unwanted trash.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-22-22, 08:07
Mass murders used to be suicidal, which I think correlated with the SSRI shooter model- someone goes on SSRIs, suicide is a known problem and in extremely rare cases before committing suicide the shooter would kill other people first. I think two things have happened. We have gotten better at handing out SSRIs and dealing with side effects. The other is that the new increase in shooters is more linked to social media/moral-decay. Goaded on by social media and with less respect for life and law and order, we are getting more shooters.
That is why less mass shooters are killing themselves, its the ‘new breed’.
Don't know about deterence. For me it's about putting em down. "We don't want to house you, feed you, or tolerate your continued existence on this earth."
I say, live or dead, throw em into a woodchipper at the county dump. Don't even give em a grave, treat em like the rest of society's unwanted trash.
My problem with the death penalty is our government isn’t sufficiently evolved to be trusted with such power over its citizens.
My problem with the death penalty is our government isn’t sufficiently evolved to be trusted with such power over its citizens.
Are you saying in the case of wrongful convictions?
My problem with the death penalty is our government isn’t sufficiently evolved to be trusted with such power over its citizens.
Agreed. "On paper" I don't have an issue with it per se, but as humans are involved, the fact that a surprisingly high % are innocent, the fact it's not given equally, often convicted on surprisingly poor evidence, they sit there for decades costing crazy $, often die of old age, etc, etc, = I don't support it.
Are you saying in the case of wrongful convictions?
Among a long list of fails...
Are you saying in the case of wrongful convictions?
Wrongful convictions is a umbrella term that encompasses a laundry list of problems and failures that pollutes the criminal justice system.
Wrongful convictions is a umbrella term that encompasses a laundry list of problems and failures that pollutes the criminal justice system.
That's where I am at on it.
Also, don't forget members of the ruling class that effectively go unscathed when they commit crimes.
That's where I am at on it.
Also, don't forget members of the ruling class that effectively go unscathed when they commit crimes.
That doesn't really play into opposing the death penalty though.
The death penalty is not meant to be a deterrent or at least it shouldn't be considered to be one. It's called Capital Punishment, not Capital Deterrence or Rehabilitation. Properly applied in cases of absolute guilt beyond all reasonable doubt... I'm 100% in favor of it without exception. Actually, I believe there are crimes and levels of recidivism that should be eligible for the death penalty that currently aren't.
The Atlanta cop, Garrett Rolf, who shot Rawshard Brooks in the Wendy’s parking lot, that set off waves of “peaceful protests” was not only charged with shooting Brooks but also charged because one of his rounds struck an occupied vehicle…not even another person, just a vehicle. So, yes, there are DAs that will gleefully charge a PO…warranted or not. Hell, a former DA where I was an officer 20+ years ago stated that police officers are people that wanted to be lawyers, but weren’t smart enough, and that his favorite thing is prosecuting officers.
Rolf/Brooks may depend on when taser shot #2 was fired and charged is a long way from convicted. While I have seen crap from prosecutors(such as going after a cop for shooting a driver about to run over them) the norm seems to be blowing off an incident or charges that will obviously not hold up in court.
Someone on this forum(not you) got very pissed at me for pointing out during the Chauvin/Floyd case that Chauvin couldn't really claim it was a corrupt legal system without torpedoing any sympathy for his new found situation. To claim corruption at that point could not go without bringing up his previous 19 years dragging people in to thar very same system.
Curious how this latest(maybe?) one will turn out.
https://www.insider.com/denver-police-shooting-crowd-injuring-six-bystanders-suspect-mass-shooting-2022-7
That doesn't really play into opposing the death penalty though.
Which part?
Opposing it due to the corruption of our legal system or that a significant part of our society is free to commit crimes at will with no punishment on their horizon?
While ruining some part of a person's life with a bogus term in prison is bad enough, there is nothing to remotely ameliorate death. There also doesn't seem to be any concerted effort to punish members of the system for wrongful convictions.
If the latter, that just gets on to the "not given equally" position Will Brink mentioned. I do think a large part of our crime problems are due to what is effectively a ruling class(top to bottom, elected, appointed, or pulling strings in the background) not being held accountable for their wrong doing.
There also doesn't seem to be any concerted effort to punish members of the system for wrongful convictions.
The taxpayers are properly fleeced all the time for the sins of their keepers, but yes the main actors are well protected by absurd levels of immunity.
Y'all are starting to sound like the 'Vibe!
We don't trust the .gov to deliver the mail, but we entrust it with our lives via authorizing the death penalty.
Lawyers say that one of the buffers here is that judges don't decide life vs. death; only a Jury can do that.
One crazy punk held off almost 400 police. Imagine what what a team of terrorists (like in Nairobi Dusit D2) could do.
But the military would then get involved and bring down the hammer...there is only so much LE can do
But the military would then get involved and bring down the hammer...there is only so much LE can do
What do you think we honestly have QRF ready to go in every city???
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-23-22, 01:05
The death penalty is not meant to be a deterrent or at least it shouldn't be considered to be one. It's called Capital Punishment, not Capital Deterrence or Rehabilitation. Properly applied in cases of absolute guilt beyond all reasonable doubt... I'm 100% in favor of it without exception. Actually, I believe there are crimes and levels of recidivism that should be eligible for the death penalty that currently aren't.
I agree with this. Maybe it works as a dterrent, but I doubt it. It really is for people that cannot play well with others and are a danger to society- so dangerous that their escape is too much of a threat.
What do you think we honestly have QRF ready to go in every city???
No but there can be small assets that can be deployed regionally but it takes time...
No but there can be small assets that can be deployed regionally but it takes time...
There are Stephen Willefords and Elisjsha Dickens all around if not hampered by the elites and their pros.
No but there can be small assets that can be deployed regionally but it takes time...
Domestically? Because no. FED LE has several units that can take on terrorists within our borders. Military does not do that for a very specific reason.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No but there can be small assets that can be deployed regionally but it takes time...
And time is the one thing you do not have in such an event. That should be the national model as of yesterday as a start. Such events would plunge to statistically zero and very cost effective compared to other options. We all know why that will never happen, but post Parkland, one Principal - Bill Jones - said "F this, I'm gonna protect these kids" and did:
https://news.amomama.com/133689-florida-school-hires-combat-veterans-def.html
Cops love wasting resources. Watch any first Amend. Audit and the camera guy is surrounded by 4 cops. Zero reason to have that show of force. Even after an incident there is like 10 cops standing around, dude it's code 4, resume Normal ops
That is something I thought of when the claim they couldn't get in to get at him came out.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?235926-Uvalde-Texas-elementary-school-shooting-19-children-2-teachers-killed&p=3034807&highlight=#post3034807
Domestically? Because no. FED LE has several units that can take on terrorists within our borders. Military does not do that for a very specific reason.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
agree that LE would be first and probably second response...mil would have to get anything approved from DOJ
And time is the one thing you do not have in such an event. That should be the national model as of yesterday as a start. Such events would plunge to statistically zero and very cost effective compared to other options. We all know why that will never happen, but post Parkland, one Principal - Bill Jones - said "F this, I'm gonna protect these kids" and did:
https://news.amomama.com/133689-florida-school-hires-combat-veterans-def.html
Agree with the intent and a visible presence may deter, but do you want to show your hand or keep those assets hidden?
Agree with the intent and a visible presence may deter, but do you want to show your hand or keep those assets hidden?
I'd say no. Be as visible as possible and make no bones about the fact those intent on harming the children will be burned down, as that principle has. All those shooters to date are cowards who have no interest in guns fights nor any skills or experiences in gun fights, that's why they seek out the most vulnerable locations and targets. They will either totally avoid such a school and pick a different soft target, or they will die badly as they should.
I'd say no. Be as visible as possible and make no bones about the fact those intent on harming the children will be burned down, as that principle has. All those shooters to date are cowards who have no interest in guns fights nor any skills or experiences in gun fights, that's why they seek out the most vulnerable locations and targets. They will either totally avoid such a school and pick a different soft target, or they will die badly as they should.
Absolutely, switched on and high-viz. Backed up by qualified staff members who go about their jobs.
Also, as has been pointed out, our enemies are watching and I would not want them picking my school when they want to go full Beslan here in the US. I believe they are here, and it will happen. If they weren't already here, they are now, with 2-3 million IAs, and many more "refugees" having made it into our country in the last couple years. Can't remember the exact numbers (check America's Covert Border War by Todd Bensmann if interested), but there were many horrific attacks in Europe after the mass movement of "war refugees" into those countries in the 2010s, only a small percentage of which were terrorists.
titsonritz
07-24-22, 14:45
I'd say no. Be as visible as possible and make no bones about the fact those intent on harming the children will be burned down, as that principle has. All those shooters to date are cowards who have no interest in guns fights nor any skills or experiences in gun fights, that's why they seek out the most vulnerable locations and targets. They will either totally avoid such a school and pick a different soft target, or they will die badly as they should.
Absolutely, couple that with teachers carrying CCW for those that desire, no one knows who they are...watch this BS plummet.
titsonritz
07-24-22, 14:49
Also, as has been pointed out, our enemies are watching and I would not want them picking my school when they want to go full Beslan here in the US. I believe they are here, and it will happen. If they weren't already here, they are now, with 2-3 million IAs, and many more "refugees" having made it into our country in the last couple years. Can't remember the exact numbers (check America's Covert Border War by Todd Bensmann if interested), but there were many horrific attacks in Europe after the mass movement of "war refugees" into those countries in the 2010s, only a small percentage of which were terrorists.
This will be next and it will be on Brandon's hands and whoever is the puppeteer.
crusader377
07-24-22, 19:37
Besides the cowardice by Law Enforcement, the other disgusting thing about the Uvalde shooting was the pathological lying by law enforcement.
Those recently slaughtered children's bodies were still warm and law enforcement 's first instinct was to lie and honor themselves as heros while the reality was they were cowards.
They were hoping that no one would call them out on their lies but fortunately the truth came out.
titsonritz
07-24-22, 20:45
Besides the cowardice by Law Enforcement, the other disgusting thing about the Uvalde shooting was the pathological lying by law enforcement.
Those recently slaughtered children's bodies were still warm and law enforcement 's first instinct was to lie and honor themselves as heros while the reality was they were cowards.
They were hoping that no one would call them out on their lies but fortunately the truth came out.
They go hand in hand. Cowards lie, no surprise.
Besides the cowardice by Law Enforcement, the other disgusting thing about the Uvalde shooting was the pathological lying by law enforcement.
Those recently slaughtered children's bodies were still warm and law enforcement 's first instinct was to lie and honor themselves as heros while the reality was they were cowards.
They were hoping that no one would call them out on their lies but fortunately the truth came out.
No, even though they had no obligation to do so, they risked their lives to go in after the shooter, and they killed him.
joedirt199
07-25-22, 11:26
Heading off to our every 2 year active shooter training to shoot at each other with simunitions in the largest school in our county. 4 hours doesn't do it justice. Any guesses as to what will be discussed heavily?
Heading off to our every 2 year active shooter training to shoot at each other with simunitions in the largest school in our county. 4 hours doesn't do it justice. Any guesses as to what will be discussed heavily?
Hand sanitizer usage?
Hand sanitizer usage?
Ouch....lol
joedirt199
07-25-22, 17:43
No hand sanitizer discussion. This was based on single officer response and building clearing as we work in a large county with guys spread all over. Did a decent job of cramming what should be a weeks worth of class into 4 hours. Ran about 6 scenerios. When sims are in play you take things more seriously than just blue guns and imaginations.
They did mention that some of the hallways in that school are over 250 yards long so think I will be putting my 2x prism on my duty rifle.
They did mention that some of the hallways in that school are over 250 yards long so think I will be putting my 2x prism on my duty rifle.
It’s always a good thing to look at where you are at, and make choices based off the environment.
For me, in northern ME… if I had to take a 150 yard shot, it would probably be the far end of the spectrum of what I’d encounter. Schools are much smaller, less populated, and even things like Walmarts and parking lots are smaller than what I had in NJ.
I’ve considered putting a magnifier on my truck gun (suppressed 11.5” AR pistol), being just the red dot would be useful in most situations. I probably will run my 3x Aimpoint until I see if I want it full time… then maybe match the SIG Romeo5 with a Juliet Micro.
I have to ask my F/I, but guessing they are going to incorporate school shootings into next qualifications.
titsonritz
08-24-22, 17:47
And here comes the lawsuits, of course they got to included the firearms manufacturers and Border Patrol (you know, the guys that actually ended it). $27 Billion, a bunch of California lawyers will get most it. I hope Daniel Defense will be able to survive this.
$27 billion class action lawsuit announced for Uvalde victims and survivors (https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022/08/22/27-billion-class-action-lawsuit-announced-for-uvalde-victims-and-survivors/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=snd&utm_content=ksat12)
Attorney For Uvalde Shooting Victims Will Name Gun Maker, Border Patrol In $27 Billion Lawsuit (https://dailycaller.com/2022/08/22/27-billion-lawsuit-uvalde-gun-police-border-patrol/)
Meeting today to decide Arredondo’s termination.
Arredondo terminated
https://apnews.com/article/uvalde-school-shooting-police-shootings-texas-6c5ba12b382b5cc42a6e5816dc418383
Straight Shooter
08-24-22, 20:15
Whats the word on the rest of Delta Force? :rolleyes::mad:
Arredondo terminated
https://apnews.com/article/uvalde-school-shooting-police-shootings-texas-6c5ba12b382b5cc42a6e5816dc418383
It's a start. Wonder if he will have the balls to pull a Scott Israel and sue to get reinstated.
Damn I read the headline incorrectly. He just lost his job.
Slap on the wrist.
Unfortunately, it's all they can do to him.
Unfortunately, it's all they can do to him.
This is where our laws are failing us. Perhaps there will be a civil suit, but the ambulance chasers know he's not where the $ is.
This is where our laws are failing us. Perhaps there will be a civil suit, but the ambulance chasers know he's not where the $ is.
No, the Supreme Court slammed that door shut long ago. A police officer cannot be held liable if his/her inaction causes another to be harmed. They are only responsible for society, in general, and not any one person. Sorry.
Diamondback
08-25-22, 11:08
Unfortunately, it's all they can do to him.
Yeah... he should be remanded to the custody of the families for five minutes each in a locked room, What Happens In There Stays In There.
Yeah... he should be remanded to the custody of the families for five minutes each in a locked room, What Happens In There Stays In There.
Nah. You ever watched "Law Abiding Citizen"?
No, the Supreme Court slammed that door shut long ago. A police officer cannot be held liable if his/her inaction causes another to be harmed. They are only responsible for society, in general, and not any one person. Sorry.
I'm awares of the POTUS decision, hence my comment "This is where our laws are failing us..." While I get why police and others (judges, DA, etc who abuse the chit out if far worse than LE yet rarely get called on it as LE do), have Qualified Immunity, it also gets abused and used by too many to avoid any culpability.
I'm awares of the POTUS decision, hence my comment "This is where our laws are failing us..." While I get why police and others (judges, DA, etc who abuse the chit out if far worse than LE yet rarely get called on it as LE do), have Qualified Immunity, it also gets abused and used by too many to avoid any culpability.
QA is only the police/first responders/probation officers, etc. Prosecutors and Judges have total immunity.
How narcissistic, brazen & so detached can you be to write 17 pages of your accomplishments on that horrific day...I hope he's at minimum sued into the poor house.
How narcissistic, brazen & so detached can you be to write 17 pages of your accomplishments on that horrific day...I hope he's at minimum sued into the poor house.
for what?
Nothing, my bad...he's a teddy bear. Performed his one & only job as head school security perfectly.
Should get his position back with pay like he stated...no parent should even consider a civil case of arredondo for sitting around while he picked his ass as their kids were being shot for over an hour. I mean this was the border patrol's responsibility to neutralize the shooter.
Sorry for the confusion..he's a hero & deserve's high fives all around.
For what?? GTFO
for what?
He should do the honorable thing, but he has no honor so… :rolleyes:
Diamondback
08-25-22, 22:30
He should do the honorable thing, but he has no honor so… :rolleyes:
Probably wouldn't know which end of the tanto to use or where it goes even if he did.
Probably wouldn't know which end of the tanto to use or where it goes even if he did.
Probably couldn’t get it out of the sheath, because he left it in his office with his radio.
Nothing, my bad...he's a teddy bear. Performed his one & only job as head school security perfectly.
Should get his position back with pay like he stated...no parent should even consider a civil case of arredondo for sitting around while he picked his ass as their kids were being shot for over an hour. I mean this was the border patrol's responsibility to neutralize the shooter.
Sorry for the confusion..he's a hero & deserve's high fives all around.
For what?? GTFO
No, read the whole thread. You cannot sue him for what he did. Not... "he didn't do anything wrong". I also asked "you ever see law abiding citizen"?
Guess you don't read the entire thread.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/uvalde-school-district-face-27-billion-class-action/story?id=88749276
Arredondo is UISD of which he in particular will be the focus...you can also sue someone in civil court for just about anything & just because one may win the case or even accept it doesn't mean they won't be financially strapped for representation.
You miss the entire point...didn't do anything wrong.:rolleyes:
I hope his future is filled with chaos & suspect the only future employment he will be able to snag is with this admins new 86k hiring spree...wouldn't be surprised if he's already applied as I'm sure they feel he's qualified.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/uvalde-school-district-face-27-billion-class-action/story?id=88749276
Arredondo is UISD of which he in particular will be the focus...you can also sue someone in civil court for just about anything & just because one may win the case or even accept it doesn't mean they won't be financially strapped for representation.
You miss the entire point...didn't do anything wrong.:rolleyes:
I hope his future is filled with chaos & suspect the only future employment he will be able to snag is with this admins new 86k hiring spree...wouldn't be surprised if he's already applied as I'm sure they feel he's qualified.
I would love it if he got to enjoy the smooth caress of dedicated, heartfelt prison rape every day for the rest of his life.
Uvalde Hires Private Law Firm to Argue It Doesn’t Have to Release School Shooting Public Records.
Uvalde Hires Private Law Firm to Argue It Doesn’t Have to Release School Shooting Public Records.
I can't fathom why the citizens of Uvalde haven't seized the records already, by force if necessary. :(
He should do the honorable thing, but he has no honor so… :rolleyes:
There's a whole lot of useless mofo's in that little mexican town who needed to do the honorable thing. But not one of those chicken shit mother fukkers did. I have no idea why the even issue rifles to those pissants. Fashion accessories is all they are.
Exclusive: Officer being investigated over Uvalde response gave order to delay classroom breach
https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/20/us/texas-uvalde-dps-investigation-betancourt/index.html
Uvalde, Texas
CNN
—
A Texas state police captain tried to delay a law enforcement team entering the classrooms to end the Robb Elementary massacre and is now among those under investigation after an account from someone at the scene that he ordered his officers to stay out of the school in the initial response to the shooting, sources tell CNN.
CNN has obtained a new audio recording of Capt. Joel Betancourt ordering a strike team to wait, more than 70 minutes into the attack. Betancourt says he thought a more highly skilled team was on its way. Separately, police memos highlight criticism of Betancourt, a 15-year veteran of the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS).
Exclusive: Officer being investigated over Uvalde response gave order to delay classroom breach
https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/20/us/texas-uvalde-dps-investigation-betancourt/index.html
Uvalde, Texas
CNN
—
A Texas state police captain tried to delay a law enforcement team entering the classrooms to end the Robb Elementary massacre and is now among those under investigation after an account from someone at the scene that he ordered his officers to stay out of the school in the initial response to the shooting, sources tell CNN.
CNN has obtained a new audio recording of Capt. Joel Betancourt ordering a strike team to wait, more than 70 minutes into the attack. Betancourt says he thought a more highly skilled team was on its way. Separately, police memos highlight criticism of Betancourt, a 15-year veteran of the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS).
I don't care of RoboCop is "on the way" you can't wait.
I don't care of RoboCop is "on the way" you can't wait.
From article:
“I heard someone shout out, Capt. Betancourt said all DPS personnel need to be on perimeter, do no (sic) enter building,” one DPS lieutenant stated, after writing how he had driven from some 40 miles away at speeds of up to 130 mph to get to the scene.
A DPS sergeant added in his memo: “As this was clearly against established training, we both decided to enter the building where the shooter was located.”
Why have we not seen their SOP for an active shooter? That's the crux of it right there as the starting point I'd think, and they'd need to give one hell of a good explanation as to why it was not followed. That POS leading the PD for Parkland had personally gone into their SOP and changed the wording from "shall" to "may" for their active shooter protocol and that one word change had major ramifications to their response.
I don't care of RoboCop is "on the way" you can't wait.
Agreed. I’d support a law making such an order criminally illegal. Like, prison time, or execution. It is mass murder by proxy.
Agreed. I’d support a law making such an order criminally illegal. Like, prison time, or execution. It is mass murder by proxy.
**** yes. I’ve been legit astounded by some LE response on another forum about how there are laws protecting them from that and at some point, that’s just ridiculous to me.
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**** yes. I’ve been legit astounded by some LE response on another forum about how there are laws protecting them from that and at some point, that’s just ridiculous to me.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Any LEO who wants immunity for failure to perform under these specific circumstances, should NOT be a LEO. :(
**** yes. I’ve been legit astounded by some LE response on another forum about how there are laws protecting them from that and at some point, that’s just ridiculous to me.
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Imagine being so unaccountable for cowardice….or having to lead a company of people so unaccountable for same. Why cops have to be the only gun-carrying industry with no duty-to-act blows my mind.
**** yes. I’ve been legit astounded by some LE response on another forum about how there are laws protecting them from that and at some point, that’s just ridiculous to me.
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Well, they are being factual on that one.
From .gov we get peons don't need any weapons because LE is there to protect everyone, but when LE fails to protect they instantly play the LE have no duty to protect card.
Agreed. I’d support a law making such an order criminally illegal. Like, prison time, or execution. It is mass murder by proxy.
I'm about as pro LE as they come, but I agree. It's like a fireman who's afraid of fire, maybe this isn't the occupation for you. I don't think LEOs are disposable civic servants who need to risk life and limb to find the guy who porch pirated my last Amazon order BUT when they are shooting kids RFN you go make it stop RFN. I would almost go as far as not needing any kind of authorization at all but I understand a coordinated effort is best if the option reasonably exists.
If you can't rescue kids being shot up at a local school then you really can't do anything important and we really don't need you at all. Refund ALL of my property taxes and when the people down the street are playing their shitty music too loud, I guess I can fix that on my own.
I would almost go as far as not needing any kind of authorization at all...
As a lot of us former and current LE have been saying all along, that is current standards and training. You go, don’t ask, don’t wait, don’t hit the head then look for hand sanitizer you ****ing go!
As a lot of us former and current LE have been saying all along, that is current standards and training. You go, don’t ask, don’t wait, don’t hit the head then look for hand sanitizer you ****ing go!
That is just what it needs to be. And those f'ers that stopped the one cop whose wife was texting him that she was dying, I hope they spend the rest of their lives looking over their shoulder. That poor bastard that let them disarm him is going to hate himself for the rest of his life. He really should have shot the first guy who tried to disarm him and told the rest "I'm going in...anyone coming with me?" If you ever wondered if you had a true friend or partner on the force, that would tell you EVERYTHING you ever needed to know.
That is just what it needs to be. And those f'ers that stopped the one cop whose wife was texting him that she was dying, I hope they spend the rest of their lives looking over their shoulder. That poor bastard that let them disarm him is going to hate himself for the rest of his life. He really should have shot the first guy who tried to disarm him and told the rest "I'm going in...anyone coming with me?" If you ever wondered if you had a true friend or partner on the force, that would tell you EVERYTHING you ever needed to know.
I was thinking along those lines initially because I thought he was a late arrival, but he was actually one of the first on scene.
Police Were Told Not to Save Children At Elementary School - Texas DPS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtdX7MB7QN0
Last half of the video contains body cam footage that’s infuriating to watch! :mad:
Everything in that CNN report has been covered, nothing new there.
Also nothing new is that a lot of those "officers" need to lose a lot of weight.
Police Were Told Not to Save Children At Elementary School - Texas DPS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtdX7MB7QN0
Last half of the video contains body cam footage that’s infuriating to watch! :mad:
Not buying his BS. If every school shooting has taught us ONE THING, it's that first info is faulty. You assume kids are at risk given the procedures of a lock down. The ONLY reason not to go inside a room is if the people at the door have CONFIRMED that there are no kids in that room, only the shooter and even THEN you have to worry about kids hiding somewhere in that room form the shooter.
No, the Supreme Court slammed that door shut long ago. A police officer cannot be held liable if his/her inaction causes another to be harmed. They are only responsible for society, in general, and not any one person. Sorry.
They did, but it also still holds true there is a context. An officer is still liable if they grossly violate their oath of office, terms of employment, training etc etc.. I would go so far as to say the individual officers, as well as the department (thus the gov) was so far outside of standard police training and standards that a semi decent lawyer could take them all to court and rename the town after himself. It would be an easy thing to do, and if I were ever personally pulled as a special aid for such an incident, those involved would be screwed six ways from sunday.
I'm not going to go into detail regarding how simplistic the case would be, or how to set it up.
Their was a school shooting in st Louis recently. Ending with 3 dead including the shooter who was a 19 year old adult who already graduated.
However no one is showing pictures of the shooter. Few are mentioning his name. None give a description of him. AR 15 is mentioned a lot.
Why so secretive on the shooters description?
titsonritz
10-25-22, 18:58
Their was a school shooting in st Louis recently. Ending with 3 dead including the shooter who was a 19 year old adult who already graduated.
However no one is showing pictures of the shooter. Few are mentioning his name. None give a description of him. AR 15 is mentioned a lot.
Why so secretive on the shooters description?
Sounds like LE handled it as they should. Well done guys.
Officers received a call around 9:10 a.m. about an active shooter. Within minutes, authorities arrived and entered the school as students were fleeing the building, Sack said. Some of the students told the officers there was a shooter with a "long gun," he said.
"Upon hearing gunfire, they ran to that gunfire, located the shooter and engaged that shooter in an exchange of gunfire," the chief told reporters.
The suspected shooter was struck and was pronounced dead at a hospital, he said. No officers were injured during the confrontation.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/at-least-3-killed-st-louis-high-school-shooting-suspect-killed-security
Their was a school shooting in st Louis recently. Ending with 3 dead including the shooter who was a 19 year old adult who already graduated.
However no one is showing pictures of the shooter. Few are mentioning his name. None give a description of him. AR 15 is mentioned a lot.
Why so secretive on the shooters description?
Because he's black and that doesn't advance the Progressive agenda.
https://heavy.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/orlando-e1666653992785.jpg
Agreed. I’d support a law making such an order criminally illegal. Like, prison time, or execution. It is mass murder by proxy.
We forget, scotus ruled that they have no constitutional obligation to protect the citizenry. I don’t agree with it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We forget, scotus ruled that they have no constitutional obligation to protect the citizenry. I don’t agree with it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I am ok with it if police don't get a say in how people provide for their own protection.
ViniVidivici
10-25-22, 22:29
I am ok with it if police don't get a say in how people provide for their own protection.
Amen to that.
Because he's black and that doesn't advance the Progressive agenda.
https://heavy.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/orlando-e1666653992785.jpg
Here’s the shooters social media postings ......
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/10/shooter-identified-st-louis-school-shooting-deshawn-harris-posted-threat-social-media-numerous-photos-guns/
The Texas Rangers Chief retired because of this investigation.
He should have been terminated.
https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022/10/26/head-of-texas-rangers-retires-amid-investigation-into-uvalde-massacre-response/
With almost 400 larpers this probably isn't "full", but here is 77 minutes worth.
https://youtu.be/9tmt7vdLnTI
Not very far in to it and windows in the room come up.
I think Will Brink may have been the first to pose the window question when the larpers were initially claiming the door was locked.
With almost 400 larpers this probably isn't "full", but here is 77 minutes worth.
https://youtu.be/9tmt7vdLnTI
Not very far in to it and windows in the room come up.
I think Will Brink may have been the first to pose the window question when the larpers were initially claiming the door was locked.
Over and over and over. It was driving me crazy, still no good answer I have seen (unless adequately covered in that vid?) , along with seeing their SOP for active shooters, which seems to be impossible to find, which I thought was usually a public doc?
And maybe the most F up part among a long list? It appears the door was never locked and no one tested it to find out.
W
T
F
Watching now. Heart breaking. I know such an event is horribly chaotic and stressful, but there does not appear to be any coordination. We have had decades now, most notable Parkland, to improve active shooter responses, and what we see is a big mess. All that tacti-cool tax paid equipment, and not being used in any meaning full way. Really hate to armchair such a terrible thing, but am I wrong?
What to LEOs here watching all that think?
Over and over and over. It was driving me crazy, still no good answer I have seen, along with seeing their SOP for active shooters, which seems to be impossible to find, which I thought was usually a public doc?
Apparently the room had a window(or at least they thought it did) and they made sure to completely avoid it.
Larper in a red or orange long sleeve shirt at app. 28 minutes would have got a crash course in muzzle blast had the larper adjacent to him popped a round off.
Interesting how red shirt and several others were nonchalantly walking around in front of the door too.
Apparently the room had a window(or at least they thought it did) and they made sure to completely avoid it.
Larper in a red or orange long sleeve shirt at app. 28 minutes would have got a crash course in muzzle blast had the larper adjacent to him popped a round off.
Interesting how red shirt and several others were nonchalantly walking around in front of the door too.
I believe it's been confirmed there were several windows.
Not sure if I saw it questioned here or not, but going on the impenetrable door claim, the question of why they didn't go through the ceiling came up. No direct answer to why they didn't, but they seemed to think that was possible because at around an hour and 16 minutes they send out the warning to be careful because they think he may have crawled in to the ceiling.
On of the officers in the body cameras sounds like they have Covid with constant coughing.
On of the officers in the body cameras sounds like they have Covid with constant coughing.
I wonder if a lot of that and needing to get air(forget what the video time for that exchange) was due to body armor several sizes too small for a girdle effect.
I wonder if a lot of that and needing to get air(forget what the video time for that exchange) was due to body armor several sizes too small for a girdle effect.
Observe all the overweight people in uniform, I wonder if those department have some kind of physical fitness program?
Observe all the overweight people in uniform, I wonder if those department have some kind of physical fitness program?
Likely not, but doubt that would have made a difference beyond more man handling of parents that showed up.
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