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View Full Version : Dealerships Don't Like the FTC's Rules to Make Car Buying More Transparent



tn1911
07-15-22, 11:19
https://jalopnik.com/surprise-dealerships-dont-like-the-ftcs-rules-to-make-1849168954

In June, the Federal Trade Commission proposed a set of rules prohibiting shady dealership sales tactics that obfuscate a car’s true cost to a potential buyer. The targets range from false advertising — like when a website lists a price that in actuality has a wealth of discounts attached to it that the customer may not qualify for — as well as surprise, last-minute fees for packages that some dealers assert are non-negotiable. Wouldn’t you know, the National Independent Automobile Dealers Association isn’t a fan.

The group, which comprises 16,000 used car dealerships, claimed what companies often do anytime the threat of increased consumer protections are floated by lawmakers — that they’d make products more expensive. From Automotive News:

The trade group estimated compliance would require at least $1.4 billion during the next 10 years, “driving up prices for consumers and making the car-buying process longer and more difficult.” It said many of the issues the FTC sought to address fall under existing regulations.

“Independent auto dealers are small-business owners and the proposed rule from the FTC has the potential to negatively impact the ability of our members to operate their businesses,” NIADA CEO Robert Voltmann said in a statement.

“We look forward to working with the commissioners and their staff to ensure NIADA members’ voices are heard.”

The argument is that all this disclosure and increased paperwork to tell people things they should know before plunking down hundreds of dollars a month for the next four years (or more) would tack on additional time to the car buying process, a process we all know to be expedient today. And time is money.

One FTC hypothesis — the one cited by NIADA — estimated dealerships would pay a combined $1.36 billion between 2022 and 2032 to comply. The other forecast costs of $1.57 billion over the same period. The largest element within these estimates involved dealerships spending $850.5 million or $994.4 million to disseminate various disclosures to customers. Either calculation assumes a sales professional paid $21.84 an hour spending 2 minutes preparing and delivering each disclosure.

While dealerships could over a decade absorb more than $1 billion in additional costs, the FTC estimated society would recognize more than $30 billion in benefits. It forecast $31.08 billion in gains over the decade under its first cost-benefit scenario and $36.34 billion under the second projection.

The time added at the dealer you’d ultimately purchase from is time you’d theoretically save as a buyer, with less disinformation to cut through:

“The Commission assumes that, as a result of the proposed Rule provisions prohibiting misrepresentations and requiring price transparency, each consumer who ends up purchasing a vehicle will spend three fewer hours shopping online, corresponding with dealerships, visiting dealer locations, and negotiating with dealer employees per motor vehicle transaction,” the FTC wrote.

While some dealers appear to be shaking over this, and groups like NIADA are trying to instill fear in the public that being honest and forthright will come at a price, not everyone in the industry is opposed to the FTC’s proposals. In fact, an earlier Automotive News story quotes an industry compliance expert, who’s opinion on the matter basically amounts to the age-old principle that the only dealers especially aggrieved by these rules are those with something to hide:

The proposed regulations go beyond existing federal law and offer more specificity than the law that forbids unfair and deceptive dealership practices, according to Shannon Robertson, executive director of the Association of Finance and Insurance Professionals, an industry compliance and certification organization.

Robertson said good dealers adopt practices that protect them in all scenarios and felt his organization’s adherents wouldn’t be fazed by the new rules for F&I presentations.

“For an AFIP-certified dealer, none of these changes have any impact or surprise if the dealer’s doing the things the way that we teach,” he said.

Meanwhile, one Vermont dealer agrees that the rules around advertising and unnecessary products will be good...

Konrad Koncewicz, business manager of BurlingtonCars.com Auto Group in Vermont, said he supported the transparent advertising aspect of the proposal. “Rules like that are very sensible,” he said.

Koncewicz said his state has stricter disclosure requirements and advertising rules — but neighboring states don’t.

“There are places that will advertise some crazy cutthroat price, maybe on a car [that] doesn’t even exist,” Koncewicz said.

though they have reservations about the potential restrictions around GAP insurance:

Koncewicz said he favored the idea of eliminating products that have no benefit. “We don’t participate in things like that,” he said.

But he called the FTC’s GAP language “extremely vague.” A number developed in consultation with the industry might be “more workable,” he said.

GAP insurance — which covers the shortfall between the value of your car and loan balance in the event your car is totaled in an accident — happens to be overwhelmingly favored by those who hold it, according to Automotive News. However, it’s certainly not necessary in all financing scenarios, particularly if you are putting enough money down up front or if you’re financing a vehicle that tends to hold its value. Yet, some unscrupulous dealers will push it anyway.

In a nutshell, that pretty much highlights why the FTC’s attention on these practices is necessary. Here you have a product that some people want and benefit from, peddled to those who don’t need it as an upsell. If the greediest dealerships feel compelled to jack up prices to cover for this loss of ill-gotten revenue, at least the adjustments could be loaded on as markups, where they might be more visible before you even walk in the door.

1168
07-15-22, 11:40
I’d like car-buying to not be a haggle-fest like I’m trying to buy chinese energy drinks in Asadabad with Rupees or some shit.

Todd.K
07-15-22, 12:28
I want big daddy government to protect me from making a financial mistake, because then I’d have to admit how financially dumb I am, and I don’t want to be responsible for improving myself.

HKGuns
07-15-22, 12:30
Rules are great until they impact you. Abolish the FTC and all of the other outsourced, unelected "law" making agencies.

FromMyColdDeadHand
07-15-22, 13:39
Will they make strippers show you a before surgery and make-up pictures...

Coal Dragger
07-15-22, 14:12
Does this mean Pvt. ****knuckles isn’t going to be sold a sweet used Mustang at 20% APR by that cool salesman who used to be an E-7 that’s hooking him up?

Gabriel556
07-15-22, 16:29
No, it means that PVT won’t be slapped with huge add on fees like mandatory paint and interior protection, a GPS anti theft system (LoJack) he didn’t want when he goes to sign for the 20% APR loan. It also would limit how much administration fee is charged (some states already limit the Doc fee for doing the paperwork).

SteyrAUG
07-15-22, 18:14
Honestly, if the entire internet can publish my FFL prices for anyone and everyone, no reason it shouldn't be done with every product.

Everyone would support it, at least until it came to how they make a living.

FromMyColdDeadHand
07-15-22, 18:26
Used cars are the wild west. No real prices to publish. Sure, there are Blue book and others, but those aren't 'hard' dollars.

I only buy new cars so I spec it out, send that to three dealers and see what they'll do. Then my wife and I go in to buy the car, and she falls for all the real salesperson- the 'finance' person- BS.... Told here we weren't doing any of it, but she is weak... It was her money, so whatever, but I'm leaving her at home next time.

Gabriel556
07-15-22, 18:31
I agree. Even new cars are stupid now. I took the spec of a small suv to 4 dealers, one said 10% market adjustment right away and I said no thanks, another dealer said $500 tacked on because no $$ being made in financing, I said ok, let’s see the .9% rate you advertise (I have 800+), and there’s a “good credit” charge…. The third dealer never even responded or called back, and the fourth would sell at sticker, but there was a $2600 paint and interior protection, plus wheel locks, and other crap for another 1200 when the car wasn’t even on the ground yet.

SteyrAUG
07-15-22, 19:58
I agree. Even new cars are stupid now. I took the spec of a small suv to 4 dealers, one said 10% market adjustment right away and I said no thanks, another dealer said $500 tacked on because no $$ being made in financing, I said ok, let’s see the .9% rate you advertise (I have 800+), and there’s a “good credit” charge…. The third dealer never even responded or called back, and the fourth would sell at sticker, but there was a $2600 paint and interior protection, plus wheel locks, and other crap for another 1200 when the car wasn’t even on the ground yet.

It's a sellers market, so I leave it on the lot. Soon enough it will turn again and I'll be willing to buy.

Coal Dragger
07-15-22, 22:55
Yep. There’s a big crash/correction coming.

I’m biding my time.

ubet
07-16-22, 01:03
I want to know what’s going on with all those cars from 2020 that couldn’t get chips and were just sitting. Are they ever going to hit the market?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TMS951
07-16-22, 07:33
I recently bought my first new car (actually for the wife). It was a wild experience.

I normally drive an old Mercedes’ G wagen. I have a couple of them. We have a 450 acre off grid piece of land in the mountains. We need these cars to get in and out of it.

So my wife had had it with my collection of 20 year old cars. Fair enough. My BMW 7 series broke down one night with the whole fam on board and I gave in and went to buy a new car.

Deceived a Toyota Land Cruiser was the only thing on the market I was interested in.

This was may 2021 and Toyota had no cars to sell and the land cruiser was in the way out. The dealers I dealt with were terrible. They lied about having the car or ability to order it to get me in there to sell me some crap like a rav4 instead. One dealer seemed as though they could get it and took a deposit. They never got it. Lastly one dealer had three on the lot for real and wanted 10,000$ over sticker.

Due to the dealer experience I had I would never ever consider a Toyota again. Never never.

I’m a euro car guy. I think the X5 is great and recommend them to people looking for a transportation appliance. People like my mom.

Wife and I go into the dealer to see how hard they are to get.

Sales man gives us space and then asks if need assistance. We sit down with this young man and he never tried to upswell us once. Just what do you want.

Long and short of it. They said I could order an X5 specked how ever I wanted. It would be built to order and delivered in six weeks. We would get 700$ off for owning a bmw already (it was 20 years old and I bought it used for 6k) and 1.9% financing with zero down. He placed the order on his computer for the car as we spoke to him. We watched the build progress online.

5 weeks later our new car was delivered. No fus. No lies. No smoke and mirrors.

I’ll only ever buy ‘luxury’ cars going forward because of the dealer experience.

Todd.K
07-16-22, 08:35
You do know that the car manufacturer doesn’t own the car dealerships, right?

FromMyColdDeadHand
07-16-22, 08:36
Auto manufacturers are trying to get into the screwing customers game:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/14/business/bmw-subscription/index.html

AndyLate
07-16-22, 08:40
Rules are great until they impact you. Abolish the FTC and all of the other outsourced, unelected "law" making agencies.

This. I trust nothing coming out of Washington. I wish we had a system that only allowed laws to be created by people the citizens select.

Andy

FromMyColdDeadHand
07-16-22, 09:24
I recently bought my first new car (actually for the wife). It was a wild experience.

I normally drive an old Mercedes’ G wagen. I have a couple of them. We have a 450 acre off grid piece of land in the mountains. We need these cars to get in and out of it.

So my wife had had it with my collection of 20 year old cars. Fair enough. My BMW 7 series broke down one night with the whole fam on board and I gave in and went to buy a new car.

Deceived a Toyota Land Cruiser was the only thing on the market I was interested in.

This was may 2021 and Toyota had no cars to sell and the land cruiser was in the way out. The dealers I dealt with were terrible. They lied about having the car or ability to order it to get me in there to sell me some crap like a rav4 instead. One dealer seemed as though they could get it and took a deposit. They never got it. Lastly one dealer had three on the lot for real and wanted 10,000$ over sticker.

Due to the dealer experience I had I would never ever consider a Toyota again. Never never.

I’m a euro car guy. I think the X5 is great and recommend them to people looking for a transportation appliance. People like my mom.

Wife and I go into the dealer to see how hard they are to get.

Sales man gives us space and then asks if need assistance. We sit down with this young man and he never tried to upswell us once. Just what do you want.

Long and short of it. They said I could order an X5 specked how ever I wanted. It would be built to order and delivered in six weeks. We would get 700$ off for owning a bmw already (it was 20 years old and I bought it used for 6k) and 1.9% financing with zero down. He placed the order on his computer for the car as we spoke to him. We watched the build progress online.

5 weeks later our new car was delivered. No fus. No lies. No smoke and mirrors.

I’ll only ever buy ‘luxury’ cars going forward because of the dealer experience.

The ‘car’ isn’t where the sales takes place. There is too much info on new cars pricing to play many games. It is when you are with the ‘finance’ person where all the dealer add ons and warranty stuff comes up- and where the dealer makes more money. On used cars, because everyone is unique and there is no published costing, that is the unknown. For new cars the ‘sales person’ is nothing more than an order taker- their skilled sales people, and they are very skilled- sit in the ‘finance’ area…

georgeib
07-16-22, 09:43
You do know that the car manufacturer doesn’t own the car dealerships, right?

Yes, but manufacturers have everything to say about their dealer's behavior. Toyota dealers are notorious for the shystery behavior. The local one here was trying to add $4,000 for paint protection (that Southeast Toyota automatically already adds to every car delivered for $695) and window tint, and was then willing to "negotiate" it down to only $2k... even on cars that weren't yet delivered because the were supposedly "under contract with the provider" to do it for every car on the lot. "It takes the guy 5 hours to apply the ceramic paint protection and tint," the guy tells me. I respond, "That's $800 an hour. I'll do you guys a solid at $200 an hour from now on..."

ChattanoogaPhil
07-16-22, 10:22
Why is this any business of the government? There's tons of different manufactures, vehicles and dealerships competing with each other. Consumer choice and competition among sellers is the best remedy for all this stuff.

Gabriel556
07-16-22, 12:44
I want to know what’s going on with all those cars from 2020 that couldn’t get chips and were just sitting. Are they ever going to hit the market?

Depending on what the missing component was, many have been or are being sold with the part missing and if it comes available later it could be added for a set price. Namely things like wireless chargers, heated mirrors and stuff. Some adaptive cruise control radars are in the same boat. Things like gauge clusters, that may never be resolved and a lot of vehicles could be scrapped for salvage.

Univibe
07-21-22, 02:53
Rules are great until they impact you. Abolish the FTC and all of the other outsourced, unelected "law" making agencies.

The Heritage Foundation representatives on the Supreme Court are preparing to do just that. No more pesky regulations interfering with honest American businessmen.

ThirdWatcher
07-21-22, 03:14
I read somewhere that FoMoCo is looking at taking the dealer out of the equation (and I hope it’s true). Why shouldn’t we be able to order a new vehicle built to order (with the options we want and more importantly, without the crap we don’t want) via the internet, without the middleman and his substantial cut of my fixed income and have it delivered to my home?

I recently learned my lesson when the dealer I’ve purchased four new vehicles from in the past dozen years screwed me on a warranty claim. I hope ALL these stealerships go belly up.

HKGuns
07-21-22, 06:27
I read somewhere that FoMoCo is looking at taking the dealer out of the equation (and I hope it’s true). Why shouldn’t we be able to order a new vehicle built to order (with the options we want and more importantly, without the crap we don’t want) via the internet, without the middleman and his substantial cut of my fixed income and have it delivered to my home?

I recently learned my lesson when the dealer I’ve purchased four new vehicles from in the past dozen years screwed me on a warranty claim. I hope ALL these stealerships go belly up.

All OEMS have been trying to do this for years. However, the dealers in a number of States were smart and there are laws on the books requiring dealerships. (I don't have the exact language, lets just say it makes it different to operate with a direct sales model.) It remains to be seen how it works. You'll see a direct model in Europe where there are no laws to have to repeal before you see it in the USA.

ThirdWatcher
07-21-22, 08:29
Reminds me of the Chicken Tax.

Averageman
07-21-22, 08:40
I ordered a Truck at the PX in Germany, made a hefty down payment along with two additional payments.
I was assured my new GMC Truck would be on the ground as soon as I got there.
I ordered every bell and whistle, I thought I had the best Truck ever.
The truck arrived before I did and the dealership sold it to someone else. I complained to GM, wasn't a lot the could do...
The dealership was owned by a politically connected family and they had been number one in sales for several years in a row.
They wanted to know if I wanted to reorder.
I bought a Toyota.
Thanks GM.
That's the last of my money GM or that dealership ever saw. I pretty regularly had Soldiers that had problems with them.
Eventually they lost the dealership, it changed names and I don't believe that politically connected family is in the car business anymore.

ThirdWatcher
07-21-22, 18:18
Years ago, I had an issue with a Ford and Corporate’s attitude was the dealer was their customer, not me. Latest screwing was from Ram so between your experience and mine that pretty much sums up the Big 3.

Diamondback
07-21-22, 19:48
This is why I say I'd rather buy a used and take it back to the body shop down the street where I've known those guys since I was a kid, and have them do a full teardown to bare frame and rebuild from the ground up, retrofitting modern conveniences.

ThirdWatcher
07-22-22, 03:33
That actually makes pretty good sense. I’m done buying new anyway and if I live that long that’s probably what I’ll have done to my truck.