View Full Version : Pocket Guns: Please School Me
I have recently gotten interested in Pocket Guns for carry for those times nothing else will work.
Do you all have any recommendations which pistols to consider? Caliber? Holster, or no holster? Ammo? Generally anything someone just starting out in that category of firearm should know.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you.
titsonritz
08-02-22, 01:36
I use a S&W 442 for a BUG in a Mika pocket holster. You want a holster for 1) to keep the gun consistently positioned 2) break up the outline of the gun and 3) you will destroy the pocket over time without a holster. I'm not into mouse rounds so .38spl & 9mm are go to cartridges. It is loaded with 38 Special +P 135gr Gold Dot. I prefer the shape of a hammerless J-frame over a squared off shape off and auto when drawing from my front pocket, it feels less prone to snagging.
On the very rare times that I carry a small gun it is a Glock 26 with a +2 mag extension or depending on the pants I will even use a Glock 19 mag. I use an Uncle Mikes pocket holster to break up the outline and save my pockets.
Here is my issue with small revolvers, harder to use than the Glock and less rounds than the Glock. I almost always will have a full sized spare mag in my other pocket.
The old saying you never need a pistol, until to REALLY NEED a pistol is true. So carry something that will give you the ease of use and number of rounds you might need.
All my pistols are loaded with Underwood Leighi Defense 65 or 68 grain ammo either in 9mm or 357 sig
G43(X) or 442 or similarly sized, vetted gun in an A Holster is about as good as it gets. I’ve ditched pocket carry and carry the above in a JMCK AIWB holster when size is an issue.
LCP in a pocket holster, loaded with quality FMJ.
LCPs are small, pretty snag-free, and light. Mine was purchased at a deep discount after Ruger introduced the LCPII ($175?). I use the pocket holster supplied with the pistol and load FMJ because I am not convinced expanding bullets are viable in the 380.
I had to shoot a hundred rounds or so before it was reliable with the original 6 round magazine. It was and is reliable with both 7 round Ruger mags I bought and the 6 rounder Ruger sent when the first had issues.
Edited
Andy
The Sig P365 (9mm with a 10 rounds magazine) would easily fit in a pocket.
I like Uncle Mike’s or Blackhawk pocket holsters.
S&W Shield is my pick. Just one of those guns you pick up and can shoot well the very first mag. Chambered in a real caliber... and has a decent capacity for a pocket gun.
gunnerblue
08-02-22, 12:17
I still carry a hammerless (no snag) J-frame for the pocket in either a Galco horsehide pocket holster or a Milt Sparks PCH. I prefer the PCH as it has a wire insert that allows you to shape it a little for better concealment. Both are horsehide with the rough side out so that the holster will grab the fabric of your pants and stay put upon drawing. Speed strips are an easy way to carry a reload, but are slower than speed loaders or moon clips.
Glock 43 would be my next choice but I haven't yet found a holster I like. Two extra rounds in the gun and a loaded mag in the offside pocket would be nice.
As far as caliber, I see no reason for going below .38/.357 in revolvers or 9mm in autos. There are guns available in these calibers that are already small enough for easy concealment and offer better terminal performance than smaller rounds. For revolvers I carry Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot Short barrel only. For 9mm I would personally use 147 gr. Gold Dot Gen 2, but here I think there are many options that would work.
I'd add a G43 to this method of carry. I'd never carry one without a holster. It's mandatory.
Anything even marginally larger than a G43 and I'd rather carry on the waist somewhere & there really needs to be no other option. Also, anything double stack I find too large (and typically heavy) for a pocket.
I've never been a J-Frame person, but for this type of application it has its merits.
I prefer to not go below 9mm.
Kahr CM/PM9 is smaller than a 38 snub, has less felt recoil, quicker follow up shots and greater capacity.
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/kahr-pm9-vs-smith-wesson-model-642
Sig 365 and PM9 (The PM9 is what most people consider pocket size; some regard the Sig 365 as "too big" to be a pocket gun, guess it depends on the pockets.)
68630
I prefer to not go below 9mm.
Absolutely.
I use a S&W 442 for a BUG in a Mika pocket holster. You want a holster for 1) to keep the gun consistently positioned 2) break up the outline of the gun and 3) you will destroy the pocket over time without a holster. I'm not into mouse rounds so .38spl & 9mm are go to cartridges. It is loaded with 38 Special +P 135gr Gold Dot. I prefer the shape of a hammerless J-frame over a squared off shape off and auto when drawing from my front pocket, it feels less prone to snagging.
Friends don't let friends CCW anything below 9mm.
I prefer to not go below 9mm.
Yes… BUT
Don’t let that keep you from carrying something. Or keep carrying a gun you don’t shoot well.
The PM9 is a nice sized gun, but I didn’t shoot it very well. A snub revolver fits well in a front pocket, but I don’t see myself having the time to train enough with it.
The Shield I shoot well, though it is larger than pocket sized to many. If I had to pocket carry (I don’t) then I would consider other smaller 9mm guns first, then training with a revolver or a smaller caliber second.
If you stand up to pee a .38 or .357 j-frame revolver or a 9mm semi like a shield, 365, g43 will work.
If you sit down to pee a .380 or smaller is for you.
[emoji3]
If you stand up to pee a .38 or .357 j-frame revolver or a 9mm semi like a shield, 365, g43 will work.
If you sit down to pee a .380 or smaller is for you.
[emoji3]
I tell those who sit down to pee to carry 9mm too actually.
I've had a very positive experience with the Keltec P32. It's reliable with FMJ (don't let anyone tell you .32 HPs are acceptable; they are NOT), and it's very comfortable to shoot. The P380/LCP hurts to shoot, so I would not recommend it. If you're not comfortable with .32 ACP, probably step it up to the G43.
I use the P32 with the side clip. I clip it onto my waistband when wearing gym shorts, when I can't conceal anything bigger. The loaded weight is just light enough to be comfortable carried that way, with nothing but the drawstring on gym shorts holding it up. Anything heavier (like the P380) and it's going to be too uncomfortable.
It's also surprisingly shootable. Even though it has nonexistent sights I can still make pretty good aimed hits with it. I painted the front sight white, and that helped a lot.
If you sit down to pee a .380 or smaller is for you.
[emoji3]
Although you kid, .380 and down are truly pathetic cartridges. I'm sure some putz can cite a rare example of 380/32acp being lethal, but man.... people are setting themselves up for a bad day carrying a weapons that weak.
(don't let anyone tell you .32 HPs are acceptable; they are NOT)
Agreed. Probably better off with a strong pepper spray.
titsonritz
08-02-22, 17:01
Glock 43 would be my next choice but I haven't yet found a holster I like. Two extra rounds in the gun and a loaded mag in the offside pocket would be nice.
I'd add a G43 to this method of carry. I'd never carry one without a holster. It's mandatory.
Anything even marginally larger than a G43 and I'd rather carry on the waist somewhere & there really needs to be no other option. Also, anything double stack I find too large (and typically heavy) for a pocket.
I've never been a J-Frame person, but for this type of application it has its merits.
I have a G43, but find it a little large for my front pocket. You guys talking about G26, Shields, etc must have bigger pocket than I do.
If you sit down to pee a .380 or smaller is for you.
[emoji3]
Oh man my wife, who also used to chase terrorist would bounce off the ways if I told her that. Her carry gun is a cZ P07 full house Cajun gunworks.
We were at a social setting and an other guest a male who new nothing of our backgrounds, said something stupid about gunfighting . My wife replied that she hoped nobody was taking him serious because what he just said would get you killed in a gun fight. He got all pissy and wanted to argue our hostess, a friend from back in the day in Israel walked over and asked the guy how many gun fights have you been in ? He replied none . She then turned to my wife and using her nickname from back in the day "little lamb how many gun fights have you been in"? My wife replied are you asking gun fights with bullets going both ways or just how many terrorist I have killed? The hostess then turned back to the guy and told him if either one of them gives you any advice on gun, fighting , terrorism or war, pay attention.
The guy was silent for the rest of the night.
I have a G43, but find it a little large for my front pocket. You guys talking about G26, Shields, etc must have bigger pocket than I do.
Depends on the pocket and its overall depth.
A G43 definitely fits some pockets, unless your wardrobe consists mainly of skinny jeans and PT panties.
Then again, it helps that I'm built just shy of Sasquatch, so YMMV.
I appreciate everyone’s comments. While I agree pocket guns are not ideal for self-defense, at times it is all that is available for me. I do not have the option to dress around a larger firearm, but I still want to be armed. I am not at a point in my life where I can totally avoid those situations, either due to work or familial commitments. I assume I am not alone with this issue.
Under those circumstances, is no firearm better than a pocket gun?
I agree. Any gun you can carry is better than the one you have to leave at home. Also a smaller caliber you can shoot well is better than a “manly” one you can’t, but try to keep it a duty caliber if possible.
I use a S&W 442 for a BUG in a Mika pocket holster. You want a holster for 1) to keep the gun consistently positioned 2) break up the outline of the gun and 3) you will destroy the pocket over time without a holster. I'm not into mouse rounds so .38spl & 9mm are go to cartridges. It is loaded with 38 Special +P 135gr Gold Dot. I prefer the shape of a hammerless J-frame over a squared off shape off and auto when drawing from my front pocket, it feels less prone to snagging.
This is my goto for pocket gun and 38 is the smallest round I would use. I also go hammerless. I think I have a soft Blackhawk holster but not positive. It does have a hook in case I want to put on my waist. Any gun is better no gun.
PB
titsonritz
08-03-22, 15:27
A G43 definitely fits some pockets, unless your wardrobe consists mainly of skinny jeans and PT panties.
Oh it fits, just doesn't come out like a 442 and I wouldn't consider USA made double duck canvas Carhartts (https://www.carhartt.com/product/B01/loose-fit-firm-duck-double-front-utility-work-pant?categoryCode=default&colorCode=BLK_SW) either one.
I appreciate everyone’s comments. While I agree pocket guns are not ideal for self-defense, at times it is all that is available for me. I do not have the option to dress around a larger firearm, but I still want to be armed. I am not at a point in my life where I can totally avoid those situations, either due to work or familial commitments. I assume I am not alone with this issue.
Under those circumstances, is no firearm better than a pocket gun?
I can and do find ways to dress around the issue, and there's a ton of options to do so. I think you will find some simply not going to capitulate that point and some will. Considering how small some 9mm offerings are today, and the IWB that can pretty much disappear, etc, mouse guns just don't add up in my view anymore. There's things that look like they hold a phone, that hold a gun (see sneaky Pete products), belly band products like ComfortTac, and various other options. You just need to find which will work for you, but one will work.
I appreciate everyone’s comments. While I agree pocket guns are not ideal for self-defense, at times it is all that is available for me. I do not have the option to dress around a larger firearm, but I still want to be armed. I am not at a point in my life where I can totally avoid those situations, either due to work or familial commitments. I assume I am not alone with this issue.
Under those circumstances, is no firearm better than a pocket gun?
.32 FMJ is, in my educated opinion, the smallest practical self defense cartridge. Even from a subcompact barrel, the data suggests that it can indeed get the job done. It leaves little to no margin for error, though. Heavy clothing, barriers, oblique angles, and appendages blocking the vitals are all likely to cause a failure.
That said, those same things apply to most if not all .380 HPs and many 9mm HPs even. If the average consumer knew the first thing about ballistics, .380 HPs would cease to exist, and most people would be carrying 9mm ball.
The main thing is avoid the temptation of carrying it unless it's absolutely necessary. Don't fall into lazy habits where you start carrying the .32 when you could carry a 9mm instead. If it's truly a situation where you have to choose between the .32 and nothing at all, I doubt anyone here would argue that nothing is better than something.
I can and do find ways to dress around the issue, and there's a ton of options to do so. I think you will find some simply not going to capitulate that point and some will. Considering how small some 9mm offerings are today, and the IWB that can pretty much disappear, etc, mouse guns just don't add up in my view anymore. There's things that look like they hold a phone, that hold a gun (see sneaky Pete products), belly band products like ComfortTac, and various other options. You just need to find which will work for you, but one will work.
Sometimes there simply is no dressing around it. Swim trunks? It's the P32 or nothing at all.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-03-22, 17:48
S&W Shield is my pick. Just one of those guns you pick up and can shoot well the very first mag. Chambered in a real caliber... and has a decent capacity for a pocket gun.
COVID lack of travel got me from my FS M&P9 to a Gen 1 Shield. Just so easy for the few times I would leave the house to pocket it. Better than not jocking up the IWB set-up as I ran a short trip.
Shield in a Desantis pocket holster. Outside of a nice dinner, I wear cargo pants and I made a Kydex two-mag carrier that fits in my left thigh pocket. So, 7+1, +8, +8.
I like the Desantis holster. Can get a good grip on the gun.
In some ways I prefer the pocket carry. Filling up with gas, or when I don’t like things- I already have my hand on my gun, while looking less dangerous.
Have a RDS on it and looking at a little light to add to it. I just got a Sig P365X that I’m looking for a holster for.
Oh man my wife, who also used to chase terrorist would bounce off the ways if I told her that. Her carry gun is a cZ P07 full house Cajun gunworks.
We were at a social setting and an other guest a male who new nothing of our backgrounds, said something stupid about gunfighting . My wife replied that she hoped nobody was taking him serious because what he just said would get you killed in a gun fight. He got all pissy and wanted to argue our hostess, a friend from back in the day in Israel walked over and asked the guy how many gun fights have you been in ? He replied none . She then turned to my wife and using her nickname from back in the day "little lamb how many gun fights have you been in"? My wife replied are you asking gun fights with bullets going both ways or just how many terrorist I have killed? The hostess then turned back to the guy and told him if either one of them gives you any advice on gun, fighting , terrorism or war, pay attention.
The guy was silent for the rest of the night.
When does your movie come out? :)
I appreciate everyone’s comments. While I agree pocket guns are not ideal for self-defense, at times it is all that is available for me. I do not have the option to dress around a larger firearm, but I still want to be armed. I am not at a point in my life where I can totally avoid those situations, either due to work or familial commitments. I assume I am not alone with this issue.
Under those circumstances, is no firearm better than a pocket gun?
I'm all about a small gun being better than none. I used to pocket carry, but I have found that I can actually conceal a small gun better on my beltline better than in a pocket. A jframe in Sticky or other minimalist holster really disappears for me. Maybe I'm just wearing the wrong pants, but I find having the gun in an actual pocket awkward and clunky, but a minimalist holster masks a gun under a t-shirt.
I'm old fashioned and use a 642 and a PPK that's been dead reliable for me, but I'm looking at going to a P365 for times I want something with more capability that's smaller than a compact Glock or Sig.
When does your movie come out? :)
Never. It is one thing to give a small little crack into what life is, but never more than that. I actual still do reserve duty which in-tales something so sophisticated it makes the polygraph what it really is a guess at the truth.
…and most people would be carrying 9mm ball.
What?
What?
You would be amazed how many 9mm HPs out there either fail the FBI protocol, or just barely pass by the skin of their teeth, which is truly unacceptable.
One thing to keep in mind is that the FBI protocol strongly prefers 18", vs. the 12" that the marketing departments would have us believe. And it's also becoming more and more clear that 18" probably needs to be extended to 20 or more. I think a new standard of 20-24 inches would be more appropriate.
Another undiscussed truth is that HPs that perform flawlessly in gel tests don't perform as well in human targets. Even the best HPs out there still have a relatively high failure rate in flesh and bone. Ergo, using HPs that only get 12 inches in gel doesn't mean you won't get pass throughs. All it really means is you stand the chance of the showstopper failing to penetrate, while a misplaced shot just shy of the A zone might be the one that penetrates through and through and hurts someone on the other side. In other words, you still carry the potential for pass through, and along with it accept the possibility or even likelihood of failure.
I have a friend that works in security, nothing big time but still....he would show up at my house with ball ammo in his carry gun that he could have to use on duty. I said empty that clip and fill it with this. 9mm ball is common for home defense with guys that bought a gun in one of the crazy rushes. Yep
PB
I have a friend that works in security, nothing big time but still....he would show up at my house with ball ammo in his carry gun that he could have to use on duty. I said empty that clip and fill it with this. 9mm ball is common for home defense with guys that bought a gun in one of the crazy rushes. Yep
PB
The main problem with ball is most of it is plinking crap. If it's high quality duty grade, there's nothing wrong with it.
I have a friend that works in security, nothing big time but still....he would show up at my house with ball ammo in his carry gun that he could have to use on duty. I said empty that clip and fill it with this. 9mm ball is common for home defense with guys that bought a gun in one of the crazy rushes. Yep
PB
Great, there's few projectiles from common duty ammo that over penetrates like 9mm FMJ and and a terrible choice for SD/HD. I'd hope you were able to learn your friend.
The FBI came up with 12” minimum, not a marketing department. They have moved to prefer the deeper side of the requirement, but at around the same time they went back to 9mm.
I don’t know how you go from, some 9mm HP doesn’t meet the minimum requirement or preferred depth, to none of it is better than ball. Then say some doesn’t open up and may pass through, so switch to ball?
Can’t you recommend the deeper penetrating FBI loads for 9mm and against just picking any HP?
The FBI came up with 12” minimum, not a marketing department. They have moved to prefer the deeper side of the requirement, but at around the same time they went back to 9mm.
I don’t know how you go from, some 9mm HP doesn’t meet the minimum requirement or preferred depth, to none of it is better than ball. Then say some doesn’t open up and may pass through, so switch to ball?
Can’t you recommend the deeper penetrating FBI loads for 9mm and against just picking any HP?
I don't know who that is in response to, but obviously anyone making that claim can be ignored. Every major brand offers JHPs that check off all the FBI protocol boxes and then some. That is no longer an issue and you'd have to actually look hard to find one that does not, and those usually fill some other role or niche (hunting, focus on intermediate barriers, etc) and don't always do well in FBI protocol. Just about the worst choice is 9mm FMJ, very narrow wound channel, massive over penetration, and viewed terrible choice for SD/HD by those who study and test terminal ballistics for a living.
The FBI came up with 12” minimum, not a marketing department. They have moved to prefer the deeper side of the requirement, but at around the same time they went back to 9mm.
I don’t know how you go from, some 9mm HP doesn’t meet the minimum requirement or preferred depth, to none of it is better than ball. Then say some doesn’t open up and may pass through, so switch to ball?
Can’t you recommend the deeper penetrating FBI loads for 9mm and against just picking any HP?
That's not what I said at all. What I'm saying is that even the best HPs in the field have a pretty high failure rate, leading to overpenetration. Ergo, just because you carry HPs doesn't mean you can start ignoring what's behind your target. The idea that HPs offer increased bystander safety is really born from a lot of misunderstandings and assumptions. Not least of which is that in real world shootings bystanders are almost always victims of missed shots, not over penetration. There have been actual studies that failed to find much danger, even hypothetical, to bystanders due to pass through.
I also never said that ball was superior to HPs. What I said was that it's superior to many (if not most) HPs on the market. And that's due to a fundamental misunderstanding in the market regarding anything penetrating over 18 inches in bare gel being bad. That's caused a lot of manufacturers to error more towards the 12 inch mark, because anything that fails due to over penetration is judged more harshly by the market. Again, due to misunderstandings about the danger of pass throughs to bystanders and the actual margin of safety afforded by HPs, or lack thereof rather.
Another unfortunate result of marketing to the general shooting public is their obsession with expanded diameter, which of course negatively correlates heavily with penetration depth. So the majority of HPs are made to expand as much as possible to give the absolute largest expanded diameter, while still meeting that 12 inch minimum.
And this doesn't just apply to 9mm, mind you. This applies to all the duty cartridges. .40, 45, .357, .38, etc.
I don't know who that is in response to, but obviously anyone making that claim can be ignored. Every major brand offers JHPs that check off all the FBI protocol boxes and then some. That is no longer an issue and you'd have to actually look hard to find one that does not, and those usually fill some other role or niche (hunting, focus on intermediate barriers, etc) and don't always do well in FBI protocol. Just about the worst choice is 9mm FMJ, very narrow wound channel, massive over penetration, and viewed terrible choice for SD/HD by those who study and test terminal ballistics for a living.
Aside from the entrance wound, the wound channels between HPs and ball are virtually identical. The idea that HP handgun bullets create significant cavitation, or any cavitation, is thoroughly refuted by every surgeon and pathologist who's studied it. Handgun rounds simply do not have anywhere near the energy required to create any permanent cavitation whatsoever in any muscular tissue, HP or otherwise. Ideas to the contrary are pure marketing BS turned political propaganda.
titsonritz
08-04-22, 14:51
Hmmm, I wonder who I should believe here, Mr. Innagrass or Dr. Gary Roberts? I'm not seeing a single FMJ on the good doctor's list of acceptable duty/self-defense loads...
The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:
9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P JHP (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr +P PT
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Speer G2 147 gr PT
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Speer Gold Dot 165 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (RA40B/Q4355/S40SWPDB1)
.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Hornady Critical Duty 220 gr +P JHP
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo
Hmmm, I wonder who I should believe here, Mr. Innagrass or Dr. Gary Roberts? I'm not seeing a single FMJ on the good doctor's list of acceptable duty/self-defense loads...
Tough choice...not. That's who I alluding to in my comment in #37. It's astounding we'd be having such a debate in 2022.
titsonritz
08-04-22, 15:43
Tough choice...not. That's who I alluding to in my comment in #37. It's astounding we'd be having such a debate in 2022.
I figured you were, but thought I'd spell it out. Here is another probably even more pertinent to this thread.
BUG's: .380 ACP vs. .38 Sp (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp)
From wounding factors:
“Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified.”
HP gives me the best possibility of an advantage, “given adequate penetration”. HP crush / cut more tissue than ball = larger permanent cavity.
If you cannot get adequate penetration with expansion then you stick to ball, 380 is a good example.
From wounding factors:
“Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified.”
HP gives me the best possibility of an advantage, “given adequate penetration”. HP crush / cut more tissue than ball = larger permanent cavity.
If you cannot get adequate penetration with expansion then you stick to ball, 380 is a good example.
To be sure, and if one is stuck with .380 for some reason, FMJ still seems the best choice, but some of the newer JHP offerings continue to improve and maybe some company will produce a design with reliable penetration and expansion. In 9mm, modern JHP is the obvious choice for SD/HD/duty.
titsonritz
08-04-22, 16:53
To be sure, and if one is stuck with .380 for some reason, FMJ still seems the best choice, but some of the newer JHP offerings continue to improve and maybe some company will produce a design with reliable penetration and expansion. In 9mm, modern JHP is the obvious choice for SD/HD/duty.
If I was stuck with a .380, I'd be leaning toward something like Underwood Xtreme Penetrators (https://underwoodammo.com/380-acp-p-90-grain-xtreme-penetrator/), but I'm not so...
I can't pocket carry my glock 26. I can pocket carry my xds .45.
I tried a keltec 9 and a beretta nano 9 but got rid of them pretty quickly.
I just don't get it and yet I get it.
The truth about hollowpoints is that none of them do what we would like to do. They get clogged with cloth, they just plain don't open and they sail through like a ball round.
So I get wanting to find the best round, I just don't think it is a hollowpoint any more.I don't think Bill Wilson spent a but ton of money buying Leighi if he didn't really think it was the future of handgun ammo. I have come to believe these rounds truly substantially better than hollowpoints.
But for years we were forced to carry really hot ball ammo and we shot a lot of terrorist out of this world with it. When we went to hollopoints, we didn't see a difference in performance other than less through and through rounds. When you shoot as much as we did and the face is the target, I don't care if you put 3 ball rounds through the bad guys head or 3 hollowpoints, dead is dead.
If I were forced to carry a .380 I would not want a hollowpoint but the hardest cast fastest round I could get so I could touch stuff that mattered.
I just don't get it and yet I get it.
The truth about hollowpoints is that none of them do what we would like to do. They get clogged with cloth, they just plain don't open and they sail through like a ball round.
So I get wanting to find the best round, I just don't think it is a hollowpoint any more.I don't think Bill Wilson spent a but ton of money buying Leighi if he didn't really think it was the future of handgun ammo. I have come to believe these rounds truly substantially better than hollowpoints.
But for years we were forced to carry really hot ball ammo and we shot a lot of terrorist out of this world with it. When we went to hollopoints, we didn't see a difference in performance other than less through and through rounds. When you shoot as much as we did and the face is the target, I don't care if you put 3 ball rounds through the bad guys head or 3 hollowpoints, dead is dead.
If I were forced to carry a .380 I would not want a hollowpoint but the hardest cast fastest round I could get so I could touch stuff that mattered.
Your anecdotal information is always so on point with what I know to be true from the data, I tend to believe your stories are true. It's hard to believe one dude had occasion to shoot as many people as you claim, but either you're telling the truth or you've done an incredible amount of research.
Tough choice...not. That's who I alluding to in my comment in #37. It's astounding we'd be having such a debate in 2022.
We're not. There's just an element on this site that fundamentally misunderstands ballistics and the mechanics by which bullets wound people, and therefore fails to grasp the point I was actually making.
The original point was that those same people disparaging .32 ACP across the board are likely unknowingly approving of some duty caliber HPs that are just as likely to fail.
And now I'm sure those same people will promptly accuse me of moving the goal post.:rolleyes:
We're not. There's just an element on this site that fundamentally misunderstands ballistics and the mechanics by which bullets wound people, and therefore fails to grasp the point I was actually making.
The original point was that those same people disparaging .32 ACP across the board are likely unknowingly approving of some duty caliber HPs that are just as likely to fail.
:rolleyes:
It is simple, unless mission dictates that it is a handgun only mission, you never take a pistol to a gun fight. Off duty I ALWAYS carried a Hi Power or Glock later in the game as a backup to the micro or mini uzi, or M16 commando, or full sized M16 set up for mid range sniping. In the USA, I carry the pistol and ammo that I believe will give me results that don't look like pistol results but rather more rifle like performance
I just don't get it and yet I get it.
The truth about hollowpoints is that none of them do what we would like to do. They get clogged with cloth, they just plain don't open and they sail through like a ball round.
So I get wanting to find the best round, I just don't think it is a hollowpoint any more.I don't think Bill Wilson spent a but ton of money buying Leighi if he didn't really think it was the future of handgun ammo. I have come to believe these rounds truly substantially better than hollowpoints.
But for years we were forced to carry really hot ball ammo and we shot a lot of terrorist out of this world with it. When we went to hollopoints, we didn't see a difference in performance other than less through and through rounds. When you shoot as much as we did and the face is the target, I don't care if you put 3 ball rounds through the bad guys head or 3 hollowpoints, dead is dead.
If I were forced to carry a .380 I would not want a hollowpoint but the hardest cast fastest round I could get so I could touch stuff that mattered.
But what you all learned the old fashioned way was, pistol rnds in all the common loads are poor man stoppers, period. The "best" of them are still lacking, and that means the rest, like .380 etc, are just slightly better than throwing rocks.
Your anecdotal information is always so on point with what I know to be true from the data, I tend to believe your stories are true. It's hard to believe one dude had occasion to shoot as many people as you claim, but either you're telling the truth or you've done an incredible amount of research.
I think the generation just older than me did even more shooting. When you had the first Lebanon war as your first war, then 2 intifadas, countless anti terror operations and finally civil wars in Africa, it tends to keep one busy. But I think the greatest bit of knowledge came from a project where I went out an interviewed every single civilian for 18 months that had been in a shooting with terrorist. I even went to see the reports from the Medical Examiner when possible.
I read everything I could get my hands on about the old west "gunfighter", talked to old guys that had trained under Fairbairn in the British military in WW2.
I have shot people that is true, a lot of people in both American and Israeli Special ops have a lot of people. I know from conversations with American friends of mine during the GWOT, they were very busy.
But what you all learned the old fashioned way was, pistol rnds in all the common loads are poor man stoppers, period. The "best" of them are still lacking, and that means the rest, like .380 etc, are just slightly better than throwing rocks.
Which is why I now believe the Leighi Defense type round is the wave of the future. I predict in 20 years we will see these rounds in the vast majority of holsters in the USA. We might also see a rebirth of the 357 sig, as in this caliber these rounds hit the peak performance. Which I find very interesting, as back in the day the 357 mag was considered to be the peak of performance at that time.
My favorite pocket gun, and I've had many, is the Beretta 21A .25 acp. 8+1.
If discretion is the mission and a .32, .380, or snub revolver is still too big it won't get carried either.
I give honorable mention to the Keltec P32 but I found you have to choose ammo carefully as it occasionally fails to ignite a primer. Try to use Federal primers / ammo. FMJ of course. The shape of that little gun plus the long trigger makes it harder to get hits like I can with the Beretta.
I stay in practice with the Beretta and when I carry it normally have a belt pouch with 2 8-rd spare mags. I practice reloading it quickly, too. I think of it as a knife with some range capability. The fixed barrel means contact shots won't push it out of battery. Being so small means it's going to be tough to remove it from my hand. At 15 yds I will rarely miss a pie plate. It's an accurate gun. Too bad the sights are so small.
I understand what the .25 can't do but I know what it can as well.
What I carry the most currently is an HK P30SK with the 68 gr Lehigh ammo from Underwood.
We sure moved off from pocket guns quickly.
No reasonably priced 9mm or 38 Spl matches the size and weight of the LCP or similar. A G43 and 642 are similar in size - 1" longer, .25" taller, and .25-.5" thicker than the LCP. A G43 is just shy of twice the weight of an LCP, a 642 is 4~5 oz heavier.
All are much smaller and lighter than a G19, but those fractions of an inch and ounces matter when you are sticking a gun in your pocket.
9x19 is the minimum caliber for a service pistol. Its a sliding scale of suck from there. A 380 sucks less than a .25 ACP, more than a .38 Spl, but they all suck. That doesn't change the fact that sometimes the only choices are a little gun, no gun, or stay home.
Andy
My favorite pocket gun, and I've had many, is the Beretta 21A .25 acp. 8+1.
If discretion is the mission and a .32, .380, or snub revolver is still too big it won't get carried either.
I give honorable mention to the Keltec P32 but I found you have to choose ammo carefully as it occasionally fails to ignite a primer. Try to use Federal primers / ammo. FMJ of course. The shape of that little gun plus the long trigger makes it harder to get hits like I can with the Beretta.
I stay in practice with the Beretta and when I carry it normally have a belt pouch with 2 8-rd spare mags. I practice reloading it quickly, too. I think of it as a knife with some range capability. The fixed barrel means contact shots won't push it out of battery. Being so small means it's going to be tough to remove it from my hand. At 15 yds I will rarely miss a pie plate. It's an accurate gun. Too bad the sights are so small.
I understand what the .25 can't do but I know what it can as well.
What I carry the most currently is an HK P30SK with the 68 gr Lehigh ammo from Underwood.
That is a constant issue for .32 ACP owners. There's not that many choices to begin with, especially for ball. I ended up going with Fiocchi. It's full power, and the reviews are consistently very good for it. The only major shortcoming is I don't believe the primers are sealed, so if it's exposed to moisture you have to shoot it up and replace it. It's very affordable, though, so you can use it as your range ammo, as well.
We sure moved off from pocket guns quickly.
No reasonably priced 9mm or 38 Spl matches the size and weight of the LCP or similar. A G43 and 642 are similar in size - 1" longer, .25" taller, and .25-.5" thicker than the LCP. A G43 is just shy of twice the weight of an LCP, a 642 is 4~5 oz heavier.
All are much smaller and lighter than a G19, but those fractions of an inch and ounces matter when you are sticking a gun in your pocket.
9x19 is the minimum caliber for a service pistol. Its a sliding scale of suck from there. A 380 sucks less than a .25 ACP, more than a .38 Spl, but they all suck. That doesn't change the fact that sometimes the only choices are a little gun, no gun, or stay home.
Andy
I have G42, G43, G19, (had) LCP, and P32. The P32 is in an entirely different league in terms of concealability, vs. even the G42. The LCP is very close size wise, but the increased weight of the .380 really limits what you can do with it (e.g. it will pull down your gym shorts). My personal finding, with my own personal wardrobe, is that if you can carry a G42 you can most likely carry a G43 just as easily, and there's a high probability you could also carry a G19 if you were properly motivated. I personally don't see a reason for the 42's continued existence now that the 43 is out. The 43 is extremely pleasant to shoot, and with the pinky lip mag extension you can make some pretty decent hits and follow ups.
I also carried an ultralight J frame .38 snubbie for about 5 years. They're very comfortable for IWB in the back, but they hurt to shoot and have about the same ballistics as .380 ACP. Not that the LCP is fun to shoot, mind you, but at least it doesn't draw blood like my J frame did, and it's far more concealable because of how much thinner it is. Shootability wise, I would say they're about the same (limited to very close range).
titsonritz
08-05-22, 15:41
I also carried an ultralight J frame .38 snubbie for about 5 years. They're very comfortable for IWB in the back, <snip>
If you are referring to SOB (small of back) carry, that is just about the lamest way to carry a gun. It is not nearly a concealable as people think it is, it is slow and very telegraphic to present, it can be easily pinned and made inaccessible with the potential of a crippling spinal injury should things hands on and/or to the ground.
On a side note regarding LW J frame .38 snubbies, I would suggest steering clear of the Ti-Lite series and sticking with the standard aluminum models as the Ti models recoil severely to the point of possibly pulling bullets and locking up the action.
If you are referring to SOB (small of back) carry, that is just about the lamest way to carry a gun. It is not nearly a concealable as people think it is, it is slow and very telegraphic to present, it can be easily pinned and made inaccessible with the potential of a crippling spinal injury should things hands on and/or to the ground.
On a side note regarding LW J frame .38 snubbies, I would suggest steering clear of the Ti-Lite series and sticking with the standard aluminum models as the Ti models recoil severely to the point of possibly pulling bullets and locking up the action.
Small of the back is the most comfortable way for me to carry a revolver, due to the girth of the cylinder. But yea, it's slow to the draw.
Moot point though because there's just really no reason to ever carry one, except perhaps for the operating simplicity for a new shooter or for someone who couldn't physically manipulate a semi auto. They are just terrible, though. All the anemia of .380 with all the pain of a full house .357 and then some. Easily the most rightfully despised gun I've ever owned.
They are just terrible, though. All the anemia of .380 with all the pain of a full house .357 and then some. Easily the most rightfully despised gun I've ever owned.
okie,
You have a way with words my friend! 😆
Moot point though because there's just really no reason to ever carry one,
There is a niche of jacket pocket carry.
There is a niche of jacket pocket carry.
Why wouldn't you choose an LCP, though? Or even a G42/G43 in a pocket holster?
The ability to shoot from within the pocket without jamming.
The ability to shoot from within the pocket without jamming.
Oh gotcha. Yea I had kind of forgotten about that. I do recollect hearing about that before, and I suppose it's more valid than ever since the legal environment is stricter than ever before when it comes to prophylactically drawing your pistol.
The only fatal flaw I see is for people who live in climates where you can't wear a jacket most of the year. If you lived in a place that was cool the majority of the time I could see that being a good strategy.
That is a constant issue for .32 ACP owners. There's not that many choices to begin with, especially for ball. I ended up going with Fiocchi. It's full power, and the reviews are consistently very good for it. The only major shortcoming is I don't believe the primers are sealed, so if it's exposed to moisture you have to shoot it up and replace it. It's very affordable, though, so you can use it as your range ammo, as well.
From my P32 American made FMJ averages about 750 fps, Fiocchi 850 fps. S&B a little more, but the P32 occasionally fails to ignite one. It won't set off a CCI primer sometimes, too.
So yes, Fiocchi is the way to go.
I don't carry the Beretta 81FS much anymore but I carried it with the S&B because it's never failed to fire anything and they average just over 1000 fps from that gun. Fiocchi is closer to 950 and American made ammo between about 850.
Geco has a rep for being hotter just because it's made in Europe. (Hungary I think) it's not. It ties with Blazer for the slowest. Under 750 fps from a P32 and under 850 from the longer barreled Beretta M81. Hard primers, too, like the S&B.
A bonus to the pocket revolver (or ISWB) is the grip.
You can't really "misgrip" a revolver if you need to snatch it like you can an auto, especially a small auto. Grab a small auto wrong and after the 1st shot you're almost certain to have a malfunction to clear from that little gun.
Not a problem with a revolver.
As mentioned, a revolver is slicker to come out of a pocket unless compared to the smallest of auto's, which can do as well.
I've asked guys who carry a G43 or similar sized gun in a pocket to demonstrate drawing it while moving off-center or from a slight crouch or both (a natural response to attack) and majority of them find out how slow it can be and normally have those guns hang up in the pocket. Even if they start with their hand on it.
Granted, many people don't consider how to shape their hand when going for the pocket gun, how to grab it, and typically have sub-par pocket holsters or none at all.
As for the .38 recoil, yes, the lightest guns are a bit too light, and people often choose hotter ammo. Lower-recoil ammo helps, .32 Magnum helps, and a better-shaped frame with a much better trigger (Ruger LCR) helps.
Pocket gun...only time I use one is when out walking the dogs/quick errand to run, toss a S&W 360PD in pocket and good to go, easy, reliable, and fairly capable round. Had and sold LCP's/Beretta .38/.32/.22, glock 42/43 didn't really work well in pocket holster, sold them as well. Small DA/SA revolver works for me; for other's maybe/maybe not.
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