View Full Version : HR1808 as it relates to 2A culture and the symbolic power of weapons in society
As most of you probably know, there were attempts made in committee to exempt not only current military and law enforcement from the provisions of HR1808, but to extend that exemption to FORMER military and law enforcement. I think that's an interesting topic worth discussion, because it relates both to current debate within the culture, as well as to historical norms that have some pretty terrifying implications associated with them.
The debate within the culture is exemplified by the scandal that came about from the social media statements of a Medal of Honor recipient who took umbrage with civilians who train and have kit. You all know what I'm referring to, and I'm not here to debate whether he was right or wrong, but merely to identify the discord that exists in the culture around whether civilians have a place in it, or whether it's limited to veterans. I only mention it because it's a way I can sum up what I'm referring to in a single example.
The historical norms refers to the various warrior societies that existed in antiquity, where the right to keep and bear arms was strongly associated with class. In antiquity, the right to keep and bear arms was generally limited to a warrior caste, that most often you had to be born into, or earn your way into through service to a nobleman.
I mention these things partly to demonstrate that the sentiments of certain committee members don't exist in a vacuum. Their idea to exempt military and law enforcement wasn't just a random idea they had, but something that's almost branded into people's very concept of civilization: The state appoints certain people to protect society as a whole, those people are armed, those not appointed as protectors need not be armed, and society as a whole is safer as a result of only arming those who specifically NEED to be armed. That was the claim anyhow, and still is to this day. But, as most of you will know, the right to keep and bear arms was granted to the warrior castes at birth, and extended into their old age and retirement until their death, both long before and long after they were physically capable of serving their function. Another striking conflict with this claim is the fact that relatively few members of the warrior caste actually engaged in combat or policing of any kind. When you just randomly designate an entire branch of society, obviously not all members of that branch have the physical or mental prowess to be warriors, and those who aren't talented at fighting end up serving in support roles. Nevertheless, their warrior status and right to carry the weapons as symbols of that status remain, conflicting with the notion that weapons must be limited as much as is practical for everyone's safety.
Of course we know from history that the right to keep and bear arms was far from the only privilege unique to the warrior classes. They had many other rights and privileges that separated them from other positions within their society, that went far beyond any practical necessity related to serving their alleged function of protecting the people. And we know that their privileged lives were the result of their true function, which was to protect the status quo of the ruling class first and foremost, and namely from the very people they ruled, vs. an external threat. The weapons that became symbolic of their status were carried into their retirement to signal their privilege within their society, and their privilege was given to them in exchange for their service to the rulers, making it tantamount to a bribe for their allegiance. The weapon was a symbol of rank that said, "Treat this person with privilege or suffer the consequences."
So this sentiment that exists both in the culture and now in our legislature bears all the hallmarks of that of the warrior castes wielded by the tyrants of antiquity. The house members who proposed that exemption and voted for it were saying the quiet part out loud and hoping no one would notice. It was a dog whistle to those who would sell their souls: "Give us the power we crave, and we'll reward your loyalty with privilege."
While that provision of the bill didn't survive the committee, the sentiment behind it is alive and well. It's the precise opposite of what our founders wanted. They specifically gave THE PEOPLE the right to keep and bear arms because they were students of history, and had seen it play out in their own time. They knew that a designated warrior class could always be bought and used to usurp the very people it was ostensibly formed to protect. They knew the formation of a warrior class was from its very inception the seditious act of a nation's leaders prior to seizing power. Therefore, 2A culture is WARRIOR CULTURE. It's not about hunting or even self defense. It's about stripping the warrior class of not only its tools of oppression, but the SYMBOLIC nature of those tools as a demonstration of privilege, and placing those symbols under the ownership of THE PEOPLE.
So with all that in mind, I would urge everyone to think about what 2A culture really is, and what it would mean for us if a warrior class in this country were able to successfully seize it for their own exclusive identity. There's a battle being fought in the courts and legislatures all across the country, but there's an equally important, if not MORE important, battle being fought in the culture wars. After all, laws are a product of culture, not the other way around.
I doubt this was lost on our founders. While it's generally assumed that the second amendment was put in place to facilitate the taking up of arms against a tyrannical ruling class, its full implementation might actually prevent that scenario before it even got off the ground. And just as this wasn't lost on our founders, I also don't think it's lost on politicians today. While their petty bills banning cosmetic features might appear to us to be the result of ignorance, I now believe the ignorance is on our part. They understand the symbolic power of weapons in society, and THAT is why they're concerned with cosmetics more than the actual capabilities of a given weapon.
Another behavior of the gun grabbing politicians we like to mock is their militarizing of paper pushers and meter maids. If you're paying any attention, you'll have noticed that every Barney Fife in the country is getting strapped and decked out in camo and tactical gear. Most of us just laugh, and a few take to YouTube to panic over the impending door to door gun grab to be carried out by Washington's army of desk jockeys. Both sides, I would argue, are missing the point. The symbolic arming of the fed's desk warriors is no laughing matter, and they won't have to send them door to door for them to be an effective tool of oppression.
So for those who say, I don't NEED a fully automatic M4, or, I don't NEED body armor; neither do the vast majority of the appointed warrior class. Not now, and certainly not in retirement. Just like the vast majority of the knighted nobility never used the swords or armor they wore as status symbols their entire lives. But they understood the symbolic power they had, and successfully used it to their full advantage. Failure to understand and utilize that symbolic power that our founders bequeathed to us will likewise be our downfall as a free people.
This is why we need to bring back the Ruptured Duck.
You are either current military or you are a civilian. If former servicemen were forced to acknowledge their current civie status we'd have to listen to less "but I used to be special" nonsense.
Be Cincinnatus, plow your fields, be happy. We respect your service but don't expect more than a cup of coffee from another grateful civie.
OutofBatt3ry
08-06-22, 22:19
Can us <100 IQ plebs get a TLDR/Cliff's notes?
I'm not reading all that garbage
https://i.imgur.com/Z8OX0Xj.jpg
ETA I read it. Elites believe only they are worthy of having self defense; the rest of us plebs, meh...if we die, we die.
Shocking.
We've known this for 300+ years.
Nice detective work.
Diamondback
08-06-22, 22:21
Well said, Okie; I've already forwarded this to several friends around the world.
I doubt this was lost on our founders. While it's generally assumed that the second amendment was put in place to facilitate the taking up of arms against a tyrannical ruling class, its full implementation might actually prevent that scenario before it even got off the ground. And just as this wasn't lost on our founders, I also don't think it's lost on politicians today. While their petty bills banning cosmetic features might appear to us to be the result of ignorance, I now believe the ignorance is on our part. They understand the symbolic power of weapons in society, and THAT is why they're concerned with cosmetics more than the actual capabilities of a given weapon.
Another behavior of the gun grabbing politicians we like to mock is their militarizing of paper pushers and meter maids. If you're paying any attention, you'll have noticed that every Barney Fife in the country is getting strapped and decked out in camo and tactical gear. Most of us just laugh, and a few take to YouTube to panic over the impending door to door gun grab to be carried out by Washington's army of desk jockeys. Both sides, I would argue, are missing the point. The symbolic arming of the fed's desk warriors is no laughing matter, and they won't have to send them door to door for them to be an effective tool of oppression.
A hypothesis with substantial explanatory power.
This is why we need to bring back the Ruptured Duck.
You are either current military or you are a civilian. If former servicemen were forced to acknowledge their current civie status we'd have to listen to less "but I used to be special" nonsense.
Be Leonidas, plow your fields, be happy. We respect your service but don't expect more than a cup of coffee from another grateful civie.
I respect former service members' accomplishments, and obviously their titles and insignias belong to them, and they're entitled to them.
What I find dangerous is when armed service comes with privilege, especially when one of those privileges is the right to keep and bear arms, and when the arms themselves become the symbol of that lofty position.
So, for example, the Marine globe and anchor, or the Navy SEAL trident. They earned those things by sacrificing themselves in many different ways for their organization, and for the country as a whole.
But when a gun becomes the symbol of a largely unearned, appointed status, that's where the culture is delving into very dangerous territory in my opinion. Then we're right back to living under the thumb of the same knighted nobility that Western civilization fought for a thousand years to dissolve. Entitled, arrogant, and corrupt...and all too willing to sell themselves to any tyrant willing to elevate them to a higher social status than they could achieve by their own wits and labor alone.
I respect former service members' accomplishments, and obviously their titles and insignias belong to them, and they're entitled to them.
As do I, but again you are either current military or a civilian. My grandfather was shot down by the nazis TWICE and escaped TWICE and never spent a day as a POW. When he wasn't doing that, he was part of a B-24 crew getting shot up by the Luftwaffe weekly and when the war ended he understood he was a civilian and started a refrigeration business. He didn't think he was entitled to anything special, he was mostly just really glad to have survived the war.
If somebody came along and said his kids couldn't have guns because they weren't former military, he'd have kicked their ass.
Well said, Okie; I've already forwarded this to several friends around the world.
Well thank you! I honestly didn't know if anyone would read it, or if it was even concise enough to be understood. It's one of those things you kind of have to "see" to understand, and it's hard to put it into words.
The realization dawned on me as a result of studying accelerationist philosophy and their ideas about how the political and legal landscape is being fought and won in the culture wars. And I was like, Holy shit, they're absolutely right. And not only are they right, but that's why the tyrants in Washington have been so successful in disarming us, not just literally but psychologically, as well. They understand that symbols are just as if not more important than substance.
And history bears that out. Just look at all the ceremonial weapons throughout history, from the royal scepter to the pocket pistols issued to politicians in the Soviet Union. We laugh when they try to take cosmetic features away from us, but they understand that a symbolic blow can be more effective than an actual kinetic gun grab.
Strange as it sounds, and as hard as it is for me to admit, I'm coming around to the fact that those kids on Instagram are doing more for the 2A than the NRA has done in its entire lifetime. We've been fighting a right brain war with our left brains. So bring out the Louis Vuitton plate carriers and gold plated Desert Eagles because Post Malone is the new Charlton Heston.
Can us <100 IQ plebs get a TLDR/Cliff's notes?
I'm not reading all that garbage
https://i.imgur.com/Z8OX0Xj.jpg
ETA I read it. Elites believe only they are worthy of having self defense; the rest of us plebs, meh...if we die, we die.
Shocking.
We've known this for 300+ years.
Nice detective work.
That's not it. My point is that gun grabbers understand that the true power of weapons goes beyond their utility as mere tools. Yes, they have utility as a tool of oppression (and self defense), but their actual political power is symbolic in nature, not physical.
That's the reality that we have failed to see all these years. Exercising the utility of weapons from a practical perspective isn't enough. We have to exercise the SYMBOLIC power of weapons in order to actually exercise the second amendment to an extent that it would have any tangible effect.
Diamondback
08-07-22, 00:16
Well thank you! I honestly didn't know if anyone would read it, or if it was even concise enough to be understood. It's one of those things you kind of have to "see" to understand, and it's hard to put it into words.
The realization dawned on me as a result of studying accelerationist philosophy and their ideas about how the political and legal landscape is being fought and won in the culture wars. And I was like, Holy shit, they're absolutely right. And not only are they right, but that's why the tyrants in Washington have been so successful in disarming us, not just literally but psychologically, as well. They understand that symbols are just as if not more important than substance.
And history bears that out. Just look at all the ceremonial weapons throughout history, from the royal scepter to the pocket pistols issued to politicians in the Soviet Union. We laugh when they try to take cosmetic features away from us, but they understand that a symbolic blow can be more effective than an actual kinetic gun grab.
Strange as it sounds, and as hard as it is for me to admit, I'm coming around to the fact that those kids on Instagram are doing more for the 2A than the NRA has done in its entire lifetime. We've been fighting a right brain war with our left brains. So bring out the Louis Vuitton plate carriers and gold plated Desert Eagles because Post Malone is the new Charlton Heston.
Bear in mind, I'm the dude who had a huge problem in 7th-grade English because the school library's holdings were so far BELOW my reading level... I had to take in the Apollo 11 Flight Manual and tell the instructor "you don't understand, THIS is my nightstand bedtime reading, if you think there's anything anywhere in this building on that level outside my bookbag I'd LOVE to see it. Yup, I was that uppity smartest-in-the-building-and-knows-it kid that all the teachers either really loved or really hated with no in-between... We need to get a lot more left-handers into this fight, southpaws are the majority of right-brain thinkers.
What's funny is many years ago when my gal and I were discussing crafting a sidearm to her spec and fancy colored finishes came up she laughed and said "No fancy Tiffany blue for me! It's a gun, it's supposed to BE dangerous and supposed to LOOK it every bit!"
Strange as it sounds, and as hard as it is for me to admit, I'm coming around to the fact that those kids on Instagram are doing more for the 2A than the NRA has done in its entire lifetime.
Well then you need to research the NRA prior to the internet. If not for the NRA, there wouldn't be kids on instagram with guns.
Well then you need to research the NRA prior to the internet. If not for the NRA, there wouldn't be kids on instagram with guns.
I would have to strongly disagree. At this point, I'm honestly beginning to wonder whose side they're on.
I have agreed with Steyr so far.
What we’re running into is that fewer and fewer people, coinciding with an increase in population, have served in the US military.
It used to be a thing a huge percentage of people did, either voluntarily or not. Now, fewer people even know a veteran.
A solution to this is limited-duration, universal mandatory service, which modern conservatives tend to find scary and liberals tend to find scary if it is only military.
Think Starship Troopers combined with Cincinnatus. You can eschew the common good, but if you do, you don’t have a say in its direction. And when you’re done…go home and be quiet.
I think that everyone having a common link/shared history, even if only for 2-4 years, may do more to bind the country together. And then everyone is special but no one is special.
I have agreed with Steyr so far.
What we’re running into is that fewer and fewer people, coinciding with an increase in population, have served in the US military.
It used to be a thing a huge percentage of people did, either voluntarily or not. Now, fewer people even know a veteran.
A solution to this is limited-duration, universal mandatory service, which modern conservatives tend to find scary and liberals tend to find scary if it is only military.
Think Starship Troopers combined with Cincinnatus. You can eschew the common good, but if you do, you don’t have a say in its direction. And when you’re done…go home and be quiet.
I think that everyone having a common link/shared history, even if only for 2-4 years, may do more to bind the country together. And then everyone is special but no one is special.
Maybe a combination of original US militia system and Swiss militia ideas?
The folks subject to(or the folks subjecting those folks to) the US drafts of the 20th century certainly didn't bring about any limitations on .gov over reach.
Good post OP, the reason I was against HR218 LEOSA back in the day was because I felt it promoted 2 different classes of citizens. Let's face it, there are idiots in every profession.
I made the mistake of asking a deputy at the bar I was at "Do you know if the sheriff signs off on sbr's"? Deputy says "I sure as hell hope not, you don't need an sbr, hell you people don't even need guns". I'll admit I chuckled when he got fired later for a dui and leaving the scene.
Then there was the time I called sheriff's office and dnr about a sick coyote wandering around my yard. DNR guy had a tac vest and a utility belt that would have made Batman envious. Deputy showed up about the same time. DNR guy wanted me to let the coyote alone for the night and see how it was in the morning, I said I'm not doing that. I can't let my dog out with it here and the coyote will just disappear in the bean field overnight. I said "Look if you want to shoot the coyote it's fine with me". DNR apparent SWAT team member says "I don't need your permission to shoot anything", the disappears back to his truck. I look out front and dnr guy is talking to some guy on a bicycle that came by.
Deputy is admiring my steel pistol and rifle targets behind my house and we're talking. I said "This is ridiculous, I'd have already shot it myself but the ground is hard as a rock and I thought dnr might want to study it".
Deputy says "Yeah I've had enough, enjoy standing out here talking with you but I've got to be other places", pulls out his handgun and puts 2 in the coyote. DNR guy runs around the house and deputy tells him "You probably ought to bag this up and get it out of this guy's yard".
I appreciate the OP taking the time to write and post that, I did not know congress was proposing a loop hole for veterans and police in this bill.
I'm a veteran, so technically it would have applied to me. It feels like congress is trying to buy me off with this loop hole.
**** that and **** them, we're all citizens, congress works for all of us, though they've forgotten that little fact.
Diamondback
08-07-22, 10:51
Good post OP, the reason I was against HR218 LEOSA back in the day was because I felt it promoted 2 different classes of citizens. Let's face it, there are idiots in every profession.
I'm still salty about how the LE crowd sold us that bill-of-goods with the false promise of "help us be the foot in the door for Nationwide Carry then we'll pull you through behind us" then ever since nothing but crickets.
I'm still salty about how the LE crowd sold us that bill-of-goods with the false promise of "help us be the foot in the door for Nationwide Carry then we'll pull you through behind us" then ever since nothing but crickets.
Exactly.
Diamondback
08-07-22, 14:34
Ditto FFDO for armed pilots... instead of being a Trojan Horse for us it was one for them, carving out ever more "special exemptions to general prohibition" rather than "see, more guns doesn't mean more crime."
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-07-22, 14:47
On the whole LEO thing, if we didn’t get Bruen and things went sideways, I could see where some Sheriffs would start deputizing people…. I think some ‘non-LEO’ gun instructors have that kind of deal and are part time deputies in counties they rarely step into…
As do I, but again you are either current military or a civilian.
As civilians are not subject to the UCMJ it would appear the Supreme Court disagrees with you.
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/02/22/supreme-court-retirees-can-be-court-martialed-crimes-committed-after-service.html
"The U.S. Supreme Court has upheld the Defense Department's authority to prosecute retired service members for crimes they commit, even after retirement.
The court on Tuesday chose not to hear the case of a retired Marine who was court-martialed for a sexual assault he committed three months after leaving the service in August 2015. By not accepting the case, Larrabee v. the United States, the court upheld the status quo: that military retirees are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
The denial of Larrabee's petition marks the high court's second rebuff in a year of a case involving a military retiree accused of non-military crimes in retirement."
I would have to strongly disagree. At this point, I'm honestly beginning to wonder whose side they're on.
You clearly missed "prior to the internet."
Diamondback
08-07-22, 16:00
On the whole LEO thing, if we didn’t get Bruen and things went sideways, I could see where some Sheriffs would start deputizing people…. I think some ‘non-LEO’ gun instructors have that kind of deal and are part time deputies in counties they rarely step into…
Even with Bruen, if things go Full Metal Batcrap there are some sheriffs I could see doing that. Sadly, none around where I live, maybe the sheriff in Klickitat who said "if ATF come knocking asking about your guns with no warrant call me."
You clearly missed "prior to the internet."
I don't want to turn this into a thing and get off topic, but I didn't miss it. I think the NRA has improved in recent decades from what it was, but I also think that improvement was merely a survival tactic on their part, vs. a genuine change of heart.
As civilians are not subject to the UCMJ it would appear the Supreme Court disagrees with you.
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/02/22/supreme-court-retirees-can-be-court-martialed-crimes-committed-after-service.html
"The U.S. Supreme Court has upheld the Defense Department's authority to prosecute retired service members for crimes they commit, even after retirement.
The court on Tuesday chose not to hear the case of a retired Marine who was court-martialed for a sexual assault he committed three months after leaving the service in August 2015. By not accepting the case, Larrabee v. the United States, the court upheld the status quo: that military retirees are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
The denial of Larrabee's petition marks the high court's second rebuff in a year of a case involving a military retiree accused of non-military crimes in retirement."
SCOTUS denies so many cases, and I do wonder the fact he is still subject to recall of Military service has an influence on the decision.
I don't want to turn this into a thing and get off topic, but I didn't miss it. I think the NRA has improved in recent decades from what it was, but I also think that improvement was merely a survival tactic on their part, vs. a genuine change of heart.
I was referring to the OLD NRA. Google "cincinnati revolt" and Neal Knox.
I was referring to the OLD NRA. Google "cincinnati revolt" and Neal Knox.
Seen claims Hammer and others still gripe about Knox.
NRA was founded by Union army officers who viewed lack of northern marksmanship as playing a role in the fairly long amount of time required to subjugate the southern states which wasn't exactly a pro 2nd Amendment position and most everything else I can recall them doing was geared toward bolstering the federal government along with state and local.
Seen claims Hammer and others still gripe about Knox.
NRA was founded by Union army officers who viewed lack of northern marksmanship as playing a role in the fairly long amount of time required to subjugate the southern states which wasn't exactly a pro 2nd Amendment position and most everything else I can recall them doing was geared toward bolstering the federal government along with state and local.
From a Union point of view it was very second amendment. But you really need to consider that this was a civilian group with basically the same mission as the CMP would later have. Also through most of the 20th century the NRA was about gun safety, new shooters and marksmanship. That is the role intended for the NRA as all this "anti gun" stuff is 100% bullshit.
The NRA has been fiercely pro gun and shockingly anti gun at different times over the span of their existence. But to not recognize one is as bad as pretending the other never happened. And that is why the current idiots in charge still cry about Neal Knox.
Diamondback
08-08-22, 09:02
The NRA has been fiercely pro gun and shockingly anti gun at different times over the span of their existence. But to not recognize one is as bad as pretending the other never happened. And that is why the current idiots in charge still cry about Neal Knox.
And would rather burn the house down around themselves than see another Knox-ite Member Revolt shut down the current Failure Theater Grift. :(
I appreciate the OP taking the time to write and post that, I did not know congress was proposing a loop hole for veterans and police in this bill.
I'm a veteran, so technically it would have applied to me. It feels like congress is trying to buy me off with this loop hole.
**** that and **** them, we're all citizens, congress works for all of us, though they've forgotten that little fact.
yeah, and on that note.. I don't see Jan 6th as an insurrection.. it was simply the management reminding the help of our position and lack of enthusiasm for their work. But it's OUR damned house.
Since we're discussing this from the perspective of culture wars, I will speak my two cents in meme form.
https://i.imgur.com/M2CBdsY.jpg
Diamondback
08-08-22, 09:49
yeah, and on that note.. I don't see Jan 6th as an insurrection.. it was simply the management reminding the help of our position and lack of enthusiasm for their work. But it's OUR damned house.
Funny, part of why a friend got canned at Redstate was that exact "Performance Review" language discussing underperformer RINOs who Management favored. :(
And would rather burn the house down around themselves than see another Knox-ite Member Revolt shut down the current Failure Theater Grift. :(
Sounds like a plan, they need to relocate out of NY anyway.
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