View Full Version : Teach Me About Pistol Red Dots
I think I want a pistol red dot, probably on a glock 19. I already have a 19, along with 17 and others and 19 seems to be a good compromise.
Researching this on the internet has my head spinning.
It seems I can get my slide milled, takes a month, around $165 and shipping. Or I can buy a slide, $200 and shipping with no iron sights so I'd have to add those and maybe also an adapter plate?
Or I can just sell something and buy a glock mos for around $620. Do I still need an adapter plate?
And then there are the multiple sights to choose from. RMR, see a lot about holosun. I thought holosun was a cheap china company but I saw where Kyle DeFoor uses a solar powered one on his go to carbine. Which sight would you all recommend?
One more option is available, Leupold Delta Micro. It is a great sight, it sits on my 2 carry Glocks. It also forces you to use good techniques and it will improve your shooting.
I have a Holosun 509T, it is great and I was very anti Holosun due to being made in China. But it is a great product.
I was one of the first to mount a red dot on a handgun way back in early spring of 2001, so I have been doing this a long time. Pistols of mine that can't use the Leupold Delta Micro will wear the 509T from Holosun. This of course doesn't count the pistols that currently wear a RMR.
Be prepared for loads of frustration. Mounting, zero, batteries, etc. The reliability on these things has a long way to go. When it gets there, it will be nice.
In a perfect world, they'd have pic rails on the rear of the slide, and they sights would have the reliability of the aimpoint rifle RDS.
One more option is available, Leupold Delta Micro. It is a great sight, it sits on my 2 carry Glocks. It also forces you to use good techniques and it will improve your shooting.
I have a Holosun 509T, it is great and I was very anti Holosun due to being made in China. But it is a great product.
I was one of the first to mount a red dot on a handgun way back in early spring of 2001, so I have been doing this a long time. Pistols of mine that can't use the Leupold Delta Micro will wear the 509T from Holosun. This of course doesn't count the pistols that currently wear a RMR.
Ease of installation makes that interesting. Small window kind of bothers me. Watching several videos/reviews on it now.
pointblank4445
08-10-22, 13:40
Be prepared for loads of frustration. Mounting, zero, batteries, etc. The reliability on these things has a long way to go.
Seems about in line from a post circa 2015 or so...
Seems about in line from a post circa 2015 or so...
I don't know about that. But I do know the RDS has a lot of room for reliability improvement. I'm all for the RDS on pistols. I just want them at the level of reliability that you'd get with an H1 on a carbine for example.
I never see buddies standing on the firing line tryna figger out why their rifle dot aint working.... or why it's not zeroed, etc. My only rifle RDS failure was due to that stupid dip finish on the upper that let the mount break loose.
I have had a Primary arms red dot on an AK for years always works and holds zero.
Put a HS507K X2 on the P365 XL two range trips ago. It's been GTG.
I don't know about that. But I do know the RDS has a lot of room for reliability improvement. I'm all for the RDS on pistols. I just want them at the level of reliability that you'd get with an H1 on a carbine for example.
I never see buddies standing on the firing line tryna figger out why their rifle dot aint working.... or why it's not zeroed, etc. My only rifle RDS failure was due to that stupid dip finish on the upper that let the mount break loose.
I don’t understand what’s hard about mounting them or zeroing them? And reliability will never be aimpoint on a rifle level because of the g forces exerted on a slide mounted dot. Unreal expectations will lead to perceived problems. The market is flooded with cheap dots to meet the demand. You get cheap results with cheap products.
Seems about in line from a post circa 2015 or so...
Pretty much.
Sell your current Glock inventory and buy another MOS Glock, dont **** with Milling unless the mfg doesn't offer optics ready guns. Glock makes them obviously so take advantage of that. RDS on handguns has been game changer. Only RDS I have had issues with are the Sig handgun RDS. My RMR, SRO and Holosun optics have been very reliable. Sig is hit and miss.
PB
I've been using RDS on handgun long before they became a thing and this is what I've learned;
Don't think a RDS is a fix-all for crappy shooting. It isn't. They still require a solid draw-to-grip-to shooting stance, good trigger control. and decent recoil management (probably better recoil management than "standard" sights).
There is a transition period when changing-over to a RDS and a transition period to revert back to standard sights if are so inclined. It's all about conditioning yourself and once you are conditioned to use the RDS, reverting back isn't as easy as removing it, which leads to...
Once you decide to go/stay with a RDS on a serious-use handgun, it is a smart move to assure ALL of your serious use handguns have RDS on them.
It isn't as hard to condition yourself to use a RDS handgun, but it isn't easy. Lots, and lots, and lots empty-gun presentations from the holster will build your engagement speed quickly, then you'll need some dedicated range-time to work-out the live-fire quirks. The biggest one being that your recoil control needs to return the RDS handgun almost right back to the exact spot it was fired from. If it doesn't, you'll find yourself hunting for the dot for longer than you would normally had for the front sight. There are many more visual cues available to get you back on your front sight after recoil than there are to get you back on the dot after recoil.
Once you do get your recoil management working for you, you'll likely discover three benefits from a RDS handgun 1) You will be more accurate with the RDS than standard sights in the same time frame, 2) You will be as accurate with a RDS in LESS time than you are with standard sights, 3) Same sight picture all the time regardless of lighting conditions.
That has been my personal experience with USING RDS on handguns. As always, YMMV.
As far as which RDS to use...
From what I've seen, NO first generation sights work on handguns for a extended period. The first gen RMR was really about the only first-gen that held-up riding the slide. All the others would just get beat-up - some beat to pieces - when slide-mounted. Even the first-gen RMR had it's problems, not the least of which was the batteries would eventually begin to disconnect during use and the dot would become intermittent while shooting. There is a fix if you're stuck with one, however.
The Type 2 RMRs seem to have fixed all the issues with the first-gen and survive on a slide just fine. The DeltaPoint is a definite no-go for slide mounting, it's too wide and gets the crap beat out of it, then the lens falls out. The DeltaPoint Pro is looking to be solid, but be sure to use the metal frame that comes with it. The Holosun's also seem to do well, but some have demonstrated the same battery issue as the first-gen RMRs. Holosuns are also heavier than the RMR, not much, but at the forces the slide functions at every gram can matter so don't go cheap on screw quality, fit, or loctite. Docter sights have done well, too. They aren't common in the US but I've seen more than a few on handguns in Europe and no one was complaining.
Personally, I've only used RMRs and Docter on serious-use handguns and other than the first-gen RMR battery issue I've had no problems. I wouldn't hesitate to use a DeltaPoint Pro - especially with the protective hoop - and I'd be ok with Holosun as long as I was certain good screws were used and it was installed properly.
Another consideration is batteries. They live in the same environment as the sight and they have to be tough, too. Panasonic and Sony branded batteries do well. Duracells are usable but will need to be changed more often. I've not seen any other battery brand - especially generics - do well with a RDS on a slide for an extended period.
Hope this helps...
I don’t understand what’s hard about mounting them or zeroing them? And reliability will never be aimpoint on a rifle level because of the g forces exerted on a slide mounted dot. Unreal expectations will lead to perceived problems.
I've seen some come loose. The fasteners aren't really beefy enough in some cases to hold up to the punishment of the slide reciprocation. Some of the aftermarket slide mods aren't perfect which leads to the mounting issues in some cases.
I don't know how picking up a weapon and spending time tryna figger out where my dot is is a "perceived problem". I'd call it a pretty real problem. I get that it's not rifle reliable yet. But until that time, it won't be on a gun that I count on.
Edit to add: I'd disagree that they won't some day be as reliable as the rifle. I think they'll figure it out, and even at a higher cost, people will pay for the reliability. I know I would buy a reliable pistol dot at twice what they bring now.
The market is flooded with cheap dots to meet the demand. You get cheap results with cheap products.
I read that aimpoint had come out with one that stood up to 40k rounds of 40 s&w. (aimpoint's claim). I asked around and heard it still had issues.... no first hand experience with it. But their claim interested me. 40k on a .40 would be getting there.
pointblank4445
08-10-22, 18:04
I've seen some come loose.
I can see why with your homey saying to go Glock MOS...
That does explain some possible perspective issues.
I've seen some come loose. The fasteners aren't really beefy enough in some cases to hold up to the punishment of the slide reciprocation. Some of the aftermarket slide mods aren't perfect which leads to the mounting issues in some cases.
I don't know how picking up a weapon and spending time tryna figger out where my dot is is a "perceived problem". I'd call it a pretty real problem. I get that it's not rifle reliable yet. But until that time, it won't be on a gun that I count on.
Edit to add: I'd disagree that they won't some day be as reliable as the rifle. I think they'll figure it out, and even at a higher cost, people will pay for the reliability. I know I would buy a reliable pistol dot at twice what they bring now.
I read that aimpoint had come out with one that stood up to 40k rounds of 40 s&w. (aimpoint's claim). I asked around and heard it still had issues.... no first hand experience with it. But their claim interested me. 40k on a .40 would be getting there.
Can’t find the dot as in can’t acquire it in the window or it’s no longer on the gun?
As far as RDS shearing screws, my understanding is that is most likely due to cut in slide being larger than actual RDS base, front to back, so screws take the forces generated. Many machine shops want customers to send RDS w slide for a tight fit.
As far as finding the dot quickly when presenting pistol towards target, I recommend a training course. 2 days w Scott Jedlinski or a similar instructor will ingrain proper techniques specific to RDS equipped pistols. Really no different than taking a carbine course, as many of us have done at some point, and often recommend to folks just getting into the weapon this site is named after.
WRT RDS reliability, they are not infallible, and Aaron @ Sage Dynamics tells you which are "duty grade".
But even if it craps out, I still have my tall irons visible low in the window, as backup. Side loading battery avoids need to rezero and solar panel allows it to run w dead or no battery.
Used to be in the camp that they were for competition only, where they first appeared (just like carbine mounted ones), but the sights evolved and are ready for prime time.
There is a learning curve but the benefits as described in previous posts are real.
Mark
Ease of installation makes that interesting. Small window kind of bothers me. Watching several videos/reviews on it now.
Small window is not an issue, other than training issue. you dont really look through the glass, the dot sort of floats in front of your eyes.
I ended up milling my gen 4 g19 slide at DP Custom Works. I would definitely recommend them. The work is good, the price is more than fair, and their turnaround time was probably the best in the business, based on what I was being told about the other options out there. The main reason I chose to modify what I already had was I have quite a few rounds on it and know it's good to go, and didn't want to start over with an unknown new gun.
I went with the Trijicon RMR type 2 (3 MOA). I overwhelmingly prefer Aimpoint as a company, but I heard there were issues with the gen 1 Acro so I figured maybe best to wait a little while and make sure the second gen was fully baked before jumping in on that. That was almost a year ago though since I researched them, so there might be consensus on that now. Were I to buy one today, I might end up going in a different direction. The RMR is tried and true, though, and I'm generally happy with it. Also very happy with the 3 MOA dot. I think as a first pistol RDS the 3 MOA is a great place to start. The learning curve probably would have been harsher with the 1 MOA. The 3 MOA is also fine enough for easy hits out to 50 yards, which is pretty generous with a G19. Kind of hard to argue you need something finer than that.
Were I to start over with a new gun, I might opt for one of the new Glock single stack 9mm and the RMRcc. When my G19 comes to the end of its service life that's probably the direction I will go in.
I have had a Primary arms red dot on an AK for years always works and holds zero.
Put a HS507K X2 on the P365 XL two range trips ago. It's been GTG.
I forgot to mention the FF3 I use on a S&W 41. Excellent
Can’t find the dot as in can’t acquire it in the window or it’s no longer on the gun?
Pull out the pistol and get to hitting the buttons to get the dot to turn on, etc. Just happened the last time our buddy came out. Pulls out his pistol and the perennial disappointment of seeing a blank optic.
I'd predict that the pistol RDS cycle will mirror the Rifle to some extent. They'll eventually get to the "comp m4" stage of development... and be like 800-900 bucks. Then it will get even better like the H2. THEN... it'll get copied and there'll be 400 dollar "romeo 5s" that anyone can add with pretty good reliability.
3-5 years from now, we'll look back to these days as dark ages. It'll seem so obvious then.... like gas ports or anything else.... people will demand excellence and it will come.
I don't know about that. But I do know the RDS has a lot of room for reliability improvement. I'm all for the RDS on pistols. I just want them at the level of reliability that you'd get with an H1 on a carbine for example.
I never see buddies standing on the firing line tryna figger out why their rifle dot aint working.... or why it's not zeroed, etc. My only rifle RDS failure was due to that stupid dip finish on the upper that let the mount break loose.Do your buddies use the Chinese products, I figure when they puke its karma for supporting a shithole country.
All the guys I shoot with use Trijicon and rarely does anyone have issues.
I know whiney people cry about the 3 minutes it takes to change the battery once a year, but to support an American company, I'll waste a half hour per year (multiple sights).
I've never been more than an inch off at 20yds after battery replacement (I use a 20yd zero), and my edc has a laser as well so even a monkey can rezero it in the driveway using the garage door and twenty paces, 5 minutes after changing the battery.
I use my rds as a charging handle and it's never (in the 7 years I've used rds) lost zero.
I have physical reasons for doing that so I'm not sure if most people abuse their rds like I do or not.
All the guys I shoot with use Trijicon and rarely does anyone have issues.
Rarely isn't good enough. My point it that there's NO WAY this is the pinnacle of pistol RDS. It will get GREAT.
There's a mixture of RDS models that I've seen. I have not dog in the fight so to speak. And no one I shoot with runs junk stuff. I don't have a list of which brands did what because I lose interest very quickly when the stuff doesn't work... I go shoot something else.
I don't know of any RDS runner who hasn't don't the diagnostic hunch over.
I use my rds as a charging handle and it's never (in the 7 years I've used rds) lost zero.
I have physical reasons for doing that so I'm not sure if most people abuse their rds like I do or not.
I'd expect an RDS to stand up to that. They make lightning fast charging action.
Glock MOS and FCD plate or ATEi milling if you really want that extra perfection. Both RM06 and Holosun 507s have been great for me for many years/over a year or two. Not that hard in 2022.
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pointblank4445
08-10-22, 22:45
Glock MOS and FCD plate or ATEi milling if you really want that extra perfection. Both RM06 and Holosun 507s have been great for me for many years/over a year or two. Not that hard in 2022.
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Bingo!
titsonritz
08-11-22, 03:14
One more option is available, Leupold Delta Micro. It is a great sight, it sits on my 2 carry Glocks. It also forces you to use good techniques and it will improve your shooting.
I have a Holosun 509T, it is great and I was very anti Holosun due to being made in China. But it is a great product.
I was one of the first to mount a red dot on a handgun way back in early spring of 2001, so I have been doing this a long time. Pistols of mine that can't use the Leupold Delta Micro will wear the 509T from Holosun. This of course doesn't count the pistols that currently wear a RMR.
When I first saw the Leupold Delta Micro I thought it was some dorky shit, but seeing you enthusiastically endorse it in a few thread has me taking a second look at it. I'm curious what you think about how rugged it is, think it would survive doing a couple cartwheels on the asphalt and still keep chugging along or do you think it would kill it?
On the 509T...red or green?
titsonritz
08-11-22, 03:22
Glock MOS and FCD plate or ATEi milling if you really want that extra perfection. Both RM06 and Holosun 507s have been great for me for many years/over a year or two. Not that hard in 2022.
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Moving forward I'm torn between this or either Agency Arms AOS or Unity ATOM
When I first saw the Leupold Delta Micro I thought it was some dorky shit, but seeing you enthusiastically endorse it in a few thread has me taking a second look at it. I'm curious what you think about how rugged it is, think it would survive doing a couple cartwheels on the asphalt and still keep chugging along or do you think it would kill it?
On the 509T...red or green?
Sage Dynamics beat up a Leupold Delta Micro and it kept going.
It has it's own learning curve, but I love them.
509T I have them in red and green, I like the green better
Ease of installation makes that interesting. Small window kind of bothers me. Watching several videos/reviews on it now.
Don’t worry about window size. If the dot isn’t in the window, your irons wouldn’t be on target either.
One thing red dot sights immediately did for me was to show me how sloppy my draw was. A lot of dry fire solved that problem.
https://rumble.com/v1f0eq9-after-august-drill.-90-yards-on-the-timer.html
I posted this in another thread. There’s just a learning curve with dots. A good learning curve. Shooting red dots for the past 9 years made me a better iron sight shooter.
Rarely isn't good enough. My point it that there's NO WAY this is the pinnacle of pistol RDS. It will get GREAT.
There's a mixture of RDS models that I've seen. I have not dog in the fight so to speak. And no one I shoot with runs junk stuff. I don't have a list of which brands did what because I lose interest very quickly when the stuff doesn't work... I go shoot something else.
I don't know of any RDS runner who hasn't don't the diagnostic hunch over.
I'd expect an RDS to stand up to that. They make lightning fast charging action.
Since 2013 I’ve trashed 5 RMRs. Trijicon replaced them for free or at a very acceptable cost. All Type 1s. No I didn’t abuse them, I just use my stuff. Since They were replaced with Type 2s I haven’t had any problems.
My gunsmith buddy related that I’m the only person he knows that killed RMRs….he knows I don’t abuse them. Then again, during the same time period, I wore through a factory connector on my G17. :laugh
I have 10s of thousands of rounds on rmr and sro. Never had an issue with either outside of a screw breaking on my MOS. I recommend a milled slide.
I change batteries every 12-18 months and use the auto brightness models.
Small window is not an issue, other than training issue. you dont really look through the glass, the dot sort of floats in front of your eyes.
Remember the "Armson OEG"? Occluded Eye Gunsight.
Worked surprisingly well for Fast/Coarse sight picture.
Defaultmp3
08-11-22, 11:34
Don’t worry about window size. If the dot isn’t in the window, your irons wouldn’t be on target either. A larger window size means that the dot is easier to find. Not only does this mean that you have more leeway with your draw, but also gives you visual feedback sooner during recoil and easier to find the dot during shooting on the move and target transitions.
I've abused an RMR type 2 for years, and have a lot of rounds on a Holosun 507C-X2 with ACSS Vulcan reticle. Haven't used the Leupold Delta Micro, but a buddy runs one and likes it. I've abused a few Vortex Venom red dot sights on multiple weapons and they've also held up great with a good field of view.
Holosun is putting out some good pistol red dot sights these days, and i especially like the ACSS vulcan reticle for faster dot acquisition in unconventional positions. I also like that the Holosun sights have the side opening battery compartment so there is no need to take the red dot off to change a battery. They are definitely innovating in the RDS space.
I've been running a Holosun 407K-X2 on my P365XL for a few months and like it, but debating picking up one of the new EPS carry RDS with enclosed emitter. I've gotten water and dirt inside the 407k emitter before and it can be problematic. I personally think small closed emitter pistol red dot sights are the future.
I had a Glock 34 MOS and decided to try a red dot on it, went with Holosun 507c x2 because battery can be accessed from side (don't have to remove dot) and solar back-up.
Took about 500-600 rounds for my speed with the dot to get sufficiently comparable to fixed sights for me to be comfortable carrying it.
The dot is increasingly advantageous for accuracy as distance increases, at 25 yards the dot is advantageous.
I'm a bit nearsighted, my glasses fuzz front sights but make the dot clear. (dot is a bit fuzzed without glasses)
Pull out the pistol and get to hitting the buttons to get the dot to turn on, etc. Just happened the last time our buddy came out. Pulls out his pistol and the perennial disappointment of seeing a blank optic.
I'd predict that the pistol RDS cycle will mirror the Rifle to some extent. They'll eventually get to the "comp m4" stage of development... and be like 800-900 bucks. Then it will get even better like the H2. THEN... it'll get copied and there'll be 400 dollar "romeo 5s" that anyone can add with pretty good reliability.
3-5 years from now, we'll look back to these days as dark ages. It'll seem so obvious then.... like gas ports or anything else.... people will demand excellence and it will come.
That’s not knowing how your optics works or how to use it. If t shuts off, you need to know that and address it. Many don’t. Use fine of them. If the battery dies, it’s your fault for not condition checking your weapon prior to use. Getting ready for the range? Check your optic. Getting ready to CCW? Check your optic. That’s not difficult.
If you have a crap optic, fix that. I have a 509t and RMR for duty use. They get checked every day when I load up. Same with pistol lights.
A larger window size means that the dot is easier to find. Not only does this mean that you have more leeway with your draw, but also gives you visual feedback sooner during recoil and easier to find the dot during shooting on the move and target transitions.
I think muscle memory is dominant over visually trying to find the dot, so I disagree on that point. It does make a difference though in unconventional positions if you can't get your head lined up perfectly, and of course a larger window also means seeing more of your target and what's around it. So nothing too different from rifle RDS in any of those regards.
Pull out the pistol and get to hitting the buttons to get the dot to turn on, etc. Just happened the last time our buddy came out. Pulls out his pistol and the perennial disappointment of seeing a blank optic.
I'd predict that the pistol RDS cycle will mirror the Rifle to some extent. They'll eventually get to the "comp m4" stage of development... and be like 800-900 bucks. Then it will get even better like the H2. THEN... it'll get copied and there'll be 400 dollar "romeo 5s" that anyone can add with pretty good reliability.
3-5 years from now, we'll look back to these days as dark ages. It'll seem so obvious then.... like gas ports or anything else.... people will demand excellence and it will come.
Holosuns have negated that to a significant extent. So much so that anyone saying we’re not at an acceptable level of RDS features and reliability is actively fighting the concept IMO.
Do your buddies use the Chinese products, I figure when they puke its karma for supporting a shithole country.
All the guys I shoot with use Trijicon and rarely does anyone have issues.
I know whiney people cry about the 3 minutes it takes to change the battery once a year, but to support an American company, I'll waste a half hour per year (multiple sights).
I've never been more than an inch off at 20yds after battery replacement (I use a 20yd zero), and my edc has a laser as well so even a monkey can rezero it in the driveway using the garage door and twenty paces, 5 minutes after changing the battery.
I use my rds as a charging handle and it's never (in the 7 years I've used rds) lost zero.
I have physical reasons for doing that so I'm not sure if most people abuse their rds like I do or not.
My primary gun has had an RM06 on it for many years. Because it’s tough and America. But that gun has been relatively unusable for a little over a month now because life happens and I haven’t been able to get to a range to re-zero after putting a new battery in. Happens to me a lot. The “shitty” Chinese dots I have not only have better reticles, but they reduce the speed at which the battery dies through solar panels and shake awake and remove the re-zero issue entirely because of the side loading battery tray.
I’ll happily support American made MRDS again, once they become relevant again. But people like you, that buy technology that is over a decade old and therefore tell the manufacturer that they don’t need to innovate or even keep pace with other manufacturers that innovate just because America, are a big part of the problem.
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Holosuns have negated that to a significant extent. So much so that anyone saying we’re not at an acceptable level of RDS features and reliability is actively fighting the concept IMO.
My primary gun has had an RM06 on it for many years. Because it’s tough and America. But that gun has been relatively unusable for a little over a month now because life happens and I haven’t been able to get to a range to re-zero after putting a new battery in. Happens to me a lot. The “shitty” Chinese dots I have not only have better reticles, but they reduce the speed at which the battery dies through solar panels and shake awake and remove the re-zero issue entirely because of the side loading battery tray.
I’ll happily support American made MRDS again, once they become relevant again. But people like you, that buy technology that is over a decade old and therefore tell the manufacturer that they don’t need to innovate or even keep pace with other manufacturers that innovate just because America, are a big part of the problem.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProThe way I look at it is China has damn near destroyed our econemy, so I certainly will not willingly buy there stuff (sometimes its impossible not to).
Those that support them might get the next varient of the China virus named after them.
I have three rm06 and two RMRcc with 3.25 reticle, and not once have I been in the position of "my gun is unuseable", since I bought the first optic rm01 back in 2015.
I'm not the smartest guy in the world, how is it I say changing a battery without the gun being a brick is so easy a monkey can do it and others whine constantly about it?
Would a tray sliding out the side be better, certainly but since the design of the Trijicon sight is based around the battery, I go with what works. Its US made and it takes effort to break them, so if I'm the problem, so be it.
I still tell the guys on the line with broke holosun, that its karma for supporting a shithole country.
Every forum I've ever looked at has threads with broke holosun about 4 to 1 over broke Trijicon.
Again with those odds I'll keep being the problem.
Fancy technology that breaks more often isn't better in my opinion.
From what I understand the Glock MOS system isn't that good. The plate bolts to the slide and the optic bolts to the plate. But the plate is what? 0.100" thick? Is that really enough thread engagement? I don't know.
I have two RMR RM07s, one on a Zev and one on an M&P9 CORE, both have been dead nuts reliable.
I am running a Holosun 407K on my G48 MOS summer carry with an CH Precision adapter plate since the gun is cut for the RMS-C.
I also have a 507 and a couple 403s. All have been very reliable thus far. I like that I don't have to take the Holosun optics off to change the battery.
It took time to get used to finding the dot but once you do, you won't want to go back to irons. Scott Jedlinski of Modern Samurai Project has an excellent video on his YT channel helping explain how to find the dot more readily when drawing. It's really good.
The way I look at it is China has damn near destroyed our econemy, so I certainly will not willingly buy there stuff (sometimes its impossible not to).
Those that support them might get the next varient of the China virus named after them.
I have three rm06 and two RMRcc with 3.25 reticle, and not once have I been in the position of "my gun is unuseable", since I bought the first optic rm01 back in 2015.
I'm not the smartest guy in the world, how is it I say changing a battery without the gun being a brick is so easy a monkey can do it and others whine constantly about it?
Would a tray sliding out the side be better, certainly but since the design of the Trijicon sight is based around the battery, I go with what works. Its US made and it takes effort to break them, so if I'm the problem, so be it.
I still tell the guys on the line with broke holosun, that its karma for supporting a shithole country.
Every forum I've ever looked at has threads with broke holosun about 4 to 1 over broke Trijicon.
Again with those odds I'll keep being the problem.
Fancy technology that breaks more often isn't better in my opinion.
Well bud, that doesn’t seem like the case in this thread.
I said relatively unusable, meaning the gun doesn’t have a zero’d dot because I haven’t been able to get to the range to zero after replacing the battery. Yes, it’s always been close. No, that’s not good enough for me. I wish my life was so predictable and routine that it didn’t take me weeks to get to the range sometimes but that’s not how mine is.
Also, China has been a problem well before Covid and if you’re just now suddenly anti-China, it’s pathetic virtue signaling at best. Plus, not buying a $300 red dot from a Chinese company really isn’t hurting then as much as you apparently think. Based on how much better I shoot a dot than an iron sight gun, not having a dot on my pistol hurts me more than China not getting my $300. Again, if all aspects of the dot itself were equal, I’d buy American. But the current Holosuns are straight up embarrassing most American made dots in many ways.
Finally, the “fancy technology” and general tone of your posts are laughably ironic because of your username. Clearly, you like old gen, outdated things. That’s great for you, but we’re more than half way through 2022 and it of the mindset that the RMR that was introduced in 2009 has been surpassed.
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Look; a monkey can place an slide in a vice mounted to say a saw house X yards from say a garage door that you made a mark on. Remove the sight change the battery, remount, adj the dot so its back on the dot you previously marked and there is your zero, 5 minutes max using anything most men already has available, or continue to be a whiner about how hard it is.
FFS it really is that easy.
I live twenty miles from Trijicon and have bought rmr's since 2015 and their sights for numerous years before that, so virtue signaling, my ass. It's keeping people in my area/country working, sorry you don't think that is important.
If you want to support China with the millions of others folks, carry on. I haven't voluntarily been that guy for some time.
I mentioned your opportunity to be named as the next varient because that is current news, I thought that was obvious but on a forum/typed communication it isn't always, so that is my fault, I apologize.
Remember the holosun patent county is Chinese that has to pay the CCP, so your $300 actually does matter along with the other people willing to support them.
Oh BTW: not many people are running 2009 RMR's anymore, I sold the two gen one sights I had for the newer model.
I couldn't care any less about solar panels, different colors, or whatever gimmick they get people to buy their product, my type 2 rmr's haven't failed me yet, so why would I support a shithole country over local people?
We can piss on each others leg all day, so I'm done here. I say don't support China, you disagree, but I guarantee you won't change my mind, nor will I change yours so on this subject, we are done.
Inkslinger
08-11-22, 16:42
Look; a monkey can place an slide in a vice mounted to say a saw house X yards from say a garage door that you made a mark on. Remove the sight change the battery, remount, adj the dot so its back on the dot you previously marked and there is your zero, 5 minutes max using anything most men already has available, or continue to be a whiner about how hard it is.
FFS it really is that easy.
I live twenty miles from Trijicon and have bought rmr's since 2015 and their sights for numerous years before that, so virtue signaling, my ass. It's keeping people in my area/country working, sorry you don't think that is important.
If you want to support China with the millions of others folks, carry on. I haven't voluntarily been that guy for some time.
I mentioned your opportunity to be named as the next varient because that is current news, I thought that was obvious but on a forum/typed communication it isn't always, so that is my fault, I apologize.
Remember the holosun patent county is Chinese that has to pay the CCP, so your $300 actually does matter along with the other people willing to support them.
Oh BTW: not many people are running 2009 RMR's anymore, I sold the two gen one sights I had for the newer model.
I couldn't care any less about solar panels, different colors, or whatever gimmick they get people to buy their product, my type 2 rmr's haven't failed me yet, so why would I support a shithole country over local people?
We can piss on each others leg all day, so I'm done here. I say don't support China, you disagree, but I guarantee you won't change my mind, nor will I change yours so on this subject, we are done.
Can’t help but finding it funny when someone uses a Chinese product to get on a soapbox about not using Chinese products…
Red dot / RMR are definitely a great thing, with a learning curve. I've "killed" more than a few not up to speed ones on handguns 9mm and 22 L.R. then a few more on rifles. I think the reverse impact of bolt / slide closing killed them since it compares with a springer airgun recoil stroke.
I'm in total agreement with starting with pistol from mfg. ready for the RMR or with it already. If I wouldn't take it in shorts, I would sell off my G19 RTF's to get 19MOS or 19X.
Just don't "cheap out" buy once cry once really on this. IMHO.
On Holosun optics I've had one in seven to fail as a partial failure. The reticle was similar to EOTec the lower quadrant went. It's being replaced under warranty. Go figure the EOTech 552 that failed was warranty for 1/2 price of a replacement one. Of the others the warranty was trash can then buy over.
Look; a monkey can place an slide in a vice mounted to say a saw house X yards from say a garage door that you made a mark on. Remove the sight change the battery, remount, adj the dot so its back on the dot you previously marked and there is your zero, 5 minutes max using anything most men already has available, or continue to be a whiner about how hard it is.
FFS it really is that easy.
I live twenty miles from Trijicon and have bought rmr's since 2015 and their sights for numerous years before that, so virtue signaling, my ass. It's keeping people in my area/country working, sorry you don't think that is important.
If you want to support China with the millions of others folks, carry on. I haven't voluntarily been that guy for some time.
I mentioned your opportunity to be named as the next varient because that is current news, I thought that was obvious but on a forum/typed communication it isn't always, so that is my fault, I apologize.
Remember the holosun patent county is Chinese that has to pay the CCP, so your $300 actually does matter along with the other people willing to support them.
Oh BTW: not many people are running 2009 RMR's anymore, I sold the two gen one sights I had for the newer model.
I couldn't care any less about solar panels, different colors, or whatever gimmick they get people to buy their product, my type 2 rmr's haven't failed me yet, so why would I support a shithole country over local people?
We can piss on each others leg all day, so I'm done here. I say don't support China, you disagree, but I guarantee you won't change my mind, nor will I change yours so on this subject, we are done.
Yeah ok, sure your house isn’t loaded with Chinese made shit. Zero’d means live rounds to me, period. As easy as you claim that shit is, it’s even easier to not have to worry about it because the future is now old man. Call shit gimmick all you want, better is better.
BTW, my RMR is a Gen 1 because I hate the auto adjust on the Type 2.
Sorry I didn’t know you have all the knowledge and/or a completely closed mind. I’ll put you on my ignore list since you’re so smart you can’t be convinced that anything else is better.
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titsonritz
08-11-22, 22:59
BTW, my RMR is a Gen 1 because I hate the auto adjust on the Type 2.
Not all Type 2 RMRs are auto adjust.
titsonritz
08-11-22, 23:17
Sage Dynamics beat up a Leupold Delta Micro and it kept going.
It has it's own learning curve, but I love them.
509T I have them in red and green, I like the green better
Thanks for the info.
Not all Type 2 RMRs are auto adjust.
To his defense, I believe that all the manual adj models revert to auto adj after a set time.
I use the type 2 rm06 this model switch's to auto 16 hours after a manual adj is not made (the buttons are not touched) after 16 hours they figure the gun isn't being used so it goes to auto to conserve battery usage.
To me this is a battery savings option. The only time I've needed to manually adj is at night/in dark situations.
MADE IN THE USA
The vast majority of Trijicon products, including ACOG[emoji2400], VCOG[emoji2400], RMR[emoji2400], RMR[emoji2400]cc SRO[emoji2400], MRO[emoji2400], Iron Sights, MGRS[emoji2400], CCAS[emoji2400], Thermal Optics, Mounts, and Archery Sights are designed, engineered, machined, and assembled at our facilities in Wixom, Michigan or Auburn, California, and are therefore 100% Made in the USA.
https://www.trijicon.com/our-story/about-trijicon
For those finding things funny.
Inkslinger
08-12-22, 11:03
https://www.trijicon.com/our-story/about-trijicon
For those finding things funny.
What about the device you’re using to post this?
Made up my mind to try the deltapoint micro. Even have it in my amazon shopping cart, $360. Almost pushed buy but I had to get my dog to the vet.
Took my Lab Gunner to the vet and hematoma ear surgery is going to cost $475 so now in a holding pattern.
Maybe I don't need it so bad after all.
What about the device you’re using to post this?Funny you say that. I have pics on my phone of the phone box from the last know it all that said that.
Samsung pulled out of China and stopped using their parts for that short time.
A basic search shows this shit for those that at least try to avoid China.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220812/94c458addeb4c292e636b1b665d2d5f3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220812/176f3df7006cc96a269bef34a386c52d.jpg
Inkslinger
08-12-22, 11:18
Funny you say that. I have pics on my phone of the phone box from the last know it all that said that.
Samsung pulled out of China and stopped using their parts for that short time.
A basic search shows this shit for those that at least try to avoid China.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220812/94c458addeb4c292e636b1b665d2d5f3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220812/176f3df7006cc96a269bef34a386c52d.jpg
They spelled “made in the USA” wrong.
I never claimed to be 100% China free (reread my first post) it says some things are not possible.
But even a retard knows holosun is Chinese, that means the person knowingly supported that company.
This is basic stuff folks. A basic search shows what cloths, shoes, appliances, etc are not China made.
Some medicine coming from there I can't fault a person for that because most don't have the ability to write prescriptions. But again something as well know as a rds, there's zero excuse for that.
When I first saw the Leupold Delta Micro I thought it was some dorky shit, but seeing you enthusiastically endorse it in a few thread has me taking a second look at it. I'm curious what you think about how rugged it is, think it would survive doing a couple cartwheels on the asphalt and still keep chugging along or do you think it would kill it?
On the 509T...red or green?
On the red/green issue Tits-
I ALWAYS used Green FO rod in my FO FSs, the Red did NOT stand out like the Green, which “popped” for my eyes.
I assumed the RD would be the same. It is not.
I have several both Red and Green “Red Dots”. Actually I favor Red shooting both (Red and Green) side by side.
YMMV.
They spelled “made in the USA” wrong.Nice try.
I said don't support China.
Aimpoint isn't made in the USA, have you ever seen me knock that brand, nope because you are trolling at this point with that ignorant comment you just made.
ETA: I'm done with you on this topic as well since you are clearly trolling at this point.
Defaultmp3
08-12-22, 12:21
https://www.trijicon.com/our-story/about-trijicon
For those finding things funny.I am rather skeptical of the claim that they are completely made in the USA, given the electronic components. My immediate suspicion is that PCBs are sourced from the PRC; that being said, there is a pretty decent chance of being from the ROC, and an even smaller one of it being from the ROK or even Japan. Casual Googling doesn't reveal anything concrete, and Trijicon tech support stated that the country of origin of the electronics was proprietary information (understandable, albeit kinda annoying).
Aimpoint alleges that nothing comes from China for their products, and I'm somewhat inclined to believe them in the sense that their direct suppliers do not use anything directly from the PRC, but globalization has made supply chains long and murky, so while they may source a lot of stuff directly from the ROC, I am curious as to the ultimate source of much of the materials (perhaps the finished electronics come from the ROC, but what about the original wafers or the silicon ingots to begin with, etc.). I appreciate the effort made, and I'll be the first to say that I refuse to buy Holosun due to their direct links to the PRC, but I'm not going to moralize about it, nor claim that Holosun products are somehow inherently inferior to the other major players in terms of quality and features.
Inkslinger
08-12-22, 12:29
I am rather skeptical of the claim that they are completely made in the USA, given the electronic components. My immediate suspicion is that PCBs are sourced from the PRC; that being said, there is a pretty decent chance of being from the ROC, and an even smaller one of it being from the ROK or even Japan. Casual Googling doesn't reveal anything concrete, and Trijicon tech support stated that the country of origin of the electronics was proprietary information (understandable, albeit kinda annoying).
I agree. If they were, their statement on the webpage would also include the sentence “with materials and components sourced from American companies”.
I am rather skeptical of the claim that they are completely made in the USA, given the electronic components. My immediate suspicion is that PCBs are sourced from the PRC; that being said, there is a pretty decent chance of being from the ROC, and an even smaller one of it being from the ROK or even Japan. Casual Googling doesn't reveal anything concrete, and Trijicon tech support stated that the country of origin of the electronics was proprietary information (understandable, albeit kinda annoying).
Aimpoint alleges that nothing comes from China for their products, and I'm somewhat inclined to believe them in the sense that their direct suppliers do not use anything directly from the PRC, but globalization has made supply chains long and murky, so while they may source a lot of stuff directly from the ROC, I am curious as to the ultimate source of much of the materials (perhaps the finished electronics come from the ROC, but what about the original wafers or the silicon ingots to begin with, etc.). I appreciate the effort made, and I'll be the first to say that I refuse to buy Holosun due to their direct links to the PRC, but I'm not going to moralize about it, nor claim that Holosun products are somehow inherently inferior to the other major players in terms of quality and features.I'm not arguing your point, but will ask, how can they say 100% made in the usa, if they are using the parts you described from other countries.
I've been at match's where their employees are shooting and have discussed this topic with them, mind you they just work there, but they claim no China parts are in the models listed on their site.
The question I asked was "are the ANY China parts in these products", so maybe I asked the wrong question.
I take people at their word, which is another discussion itself.
If I see them next month I'll ask if any parts are non usa made and see what they say.
The S21 ultra has one hell of a camera. I went with the S22 Ultra solely for its camera. I can take pictures of small data tags from far away and read them. Where the i13 Co workers cant make out shit and will have to get a scissor lift. I can point out a fine scratch on the tags. LoL, It pisses the apple jockeys off.
Inkslinger
08-12-22, 13:43
I'm not arguing your point, but will ask, how can they say 100% made in the usa, if they are using the parts you described from other countries.
I've been at match's where their employees are shooting and have discussed this topic with them, mind you they just work there, but they claim no China parts are in the models listed on their site.
The question I asked was "are the ANY China parts in these products", so maybe I asked the wrong question.
I take people at their word, which is another discussion itself.
If I see them next month I'll ask if any parts are non usa made and see what they say.
https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/complying-made-usa-standard
A key phrase used is “all or virtually all”. Trijicon products are physically made in the US, so that claim is true. They can still use components sourced from other countries and still be considered “virtually all” in order to state 100% made in America.
Defaultmp3
08-12-22, 13:48
I'm not arguing your point, but will ask, how can they say 100% made in the usa, if they are using the parts you described from other countries.
I've been at match's where their employees are shooting and have discussed this topic with them, mind you they just work there, but they claim no China parts are in the models listed on their site.
The question I asked was "are the ANY China parts in these products", so maybe I asked the wrong question.
I take people at their word, which is another discussion itself.
If I see them next month I'll ask if any parts are non usa made and see what they say.Look at how their own wording is parsed: designed, engineered, machined, and assembled at our facilities in Wixom, Michigan or Auburn, California, and are therefore 100% Made in the USA.
They conveniently left out any verbiage about where the components and raw materials are sourced. The FTC has very specific laws about what qualifies as "made in the USA", with guidance published here: https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/complying-made-usa-standard
I don't doubt that some of the employees fully believed what they say, it's much more likely to be an issue of supply chains just being convoluted and complex. Beyond that, I'd not be shocked if Trijicon made a conscious effort, like Aimpoint, to try to avoid directly sourcing from the PRC, and got most (all?) of their electronics from the ROC. On the flip side, I would be extremely shocked if they were able to source the electronics from within the USA.
Look at how their own wording is parsed: designed, engineered, machined, and assembled at our facilities in Wixom, Michigan or Auburn, California, and are therefore 100% Made in the USA.
They conveniently left out any verbiage about where the components and raw materials are sourced. The FTC has very specific laws about what qualifies as "made in the USA", with guidance published here: https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/complying-made-usa-standard
I don't doubt that some of the employees fully believed what they say, it's much more likely to be an issue of supply chains just being convoluted and complex. Beyond that, I'd not be shocked if Trijicon made a conscious effort, like Aimpoint, to try to avoid directly sourcing from the PRC, and got most (all?) of their electronics from the ROC. On the flip side, I would be extremely shocked if they were able to source the electronics from within the USA.Thank you
Holosuns have negated that to a significant extent. So much so that anyone saying we’re not at an acceptable level of RDS features and reliability is actively fighting the concept IMO.
My primary gun has had an RM06 on it for many years. Because it’s tough and America. But that gun has been relatively unusable for a little over a month now because life happens and I haven’t been able to get to a range to re-zero after putting a new battery in. Happens to me a lot. The “shitty” Chinese dots I have not only have better reticles, but they reduce the speed at which the battery dies through solar panels and shake awake and remove the re-zero issue entirely because of the side loading battery tray.
I’ll happily support American made MRDS again, once they become relevant again. But people like you, that buy technology that is over a decade old and therefore tell the manufacturer that they don’t need to innovate or even keep pace with other manufacturers that innovate just because America, are a big part of the problem.
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You might be surprised. I take my RMR off my G19 every time I put it in the ultrasonic. The zero never changed in years.
You might be surprised. I take my RMR off my G19 every time I put it in the ultrasonic. The zero never changed in years.
What is supposed to surprise me? I’ve logged replacing the battery on my RM06 seven times since 26 DEC 17 (it hasn’t been constantly on that whole time). Every single time, I re-zero’d. It was always extremely close, but almost zero’d and zero’d are not the same thing in my book. Even if it was, this is one part of the argument. The most important part to me, but cost, reticle options, shake awake, and solar power are all part of it as well.
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Diamondback
08-12-22, 22:40
Piggybacking since I'm a pistol-RDS noob here too...
As I start penciling out updates to the custom 1911 I was doodling in college, the slide manufacturer only does cuts and bases for original Trijicon RMR (not RMRcc) and Holosun. Around here soaked-to-the-bone is a pretty normal state of affairs, and I'm not sure how well open-emitter RDS's handle maritime environments. I then found a clear protective cover for the RMR, but it's only available for fullsize,
Options as I see it:
*Fullsize RMR with "jellyfish" digging into my side
*RMR base with .150" adapter plate and enclosed-emitter Aimpoint Acro digging into an even bigger area of my side (and hope the Acro clears the ejection port)
*???
Defaultmp3
08-13-22, 00:22
Piggybacking since I'm a pistol-RDS noob here too...
As I start penciling out updates to the custom 1911 I was doodling in college, the slide manufacturer only does cuts and bases for original Trijicon RMR (not RMRcc) and Holosun. Around here soaked-to-the-bone is a pretty normal state of affairs, and I'm not sure how well open-emitter RDS's handle maritime environments. I then found a clear protective cover for the RMR, but it's only available for fullsize,
Options as I see it:
*Fullsize RMR with "jellyfish" digging into my side
*RMR base with .150" adapter plate and enclosed-emitter Aimpoint Acro digging into an even bigger area of my side (and hope the Acro clears the ejection port)
*???Are you looking specifically to do a custom 1911, or would you be willing to entertain speccing out a Wilson Combat, since they have their TZO mounting system that allows for ACRO mounting? Alternatively, CHPWS has a universal plate system that they can mill into 1911s (though I've heard mixed reviews about them as a company): https://chpws.com/product/2011-1911-milling/#red-dot-type
Wright Armory will also cut 1911s for RDSes, including ACROs it would appear. I've not had the best experiences with them thus far, in terms of CS (poor comms and long turnaround times), but their work at least seems decent.
If you're okay with a Holosun 509T, Chambers Customs does a cut for them.
Diamondback
08-13-22, 00:36
Are you looking specifically to do a custom 1911, or would you be willing to entertain speccing out a Wilson Combat, since they have their TZO mounting system that allows for ACRO mounting? Alternatively, CHPWS has a universal plate system that they can mill into 1911s (though I've heard mixed reviews about them as a company): https://chpws.com/product/2011-1911-milling/#red-dot-type
Wright Armory will also cut 1911s for RDSes, including ACROs it would appear. I've not had the best experiences with them thus far, in terms of CS (poor comms and long turnaround times), but their work at least seems decent.
If you're okay with a Holosun 509T, Chambers Customs does a cut for them.
It's a little complicated because it's strictly a DIY project to learn how to build a 1911, and I'm stuck with one vendor at great reluctance because Fusion are the only ones I can find this side of vintage AMT deadstock who make components for 7" Longslides. (I wish somebody else would present an alternate, Fusion's comms suck diarrheic ass.) Re Holosun, my main concern is the open-emitter problem, I'm not sure what system they use. I know Nighthawk has their IOS system, which has a certain appeal because in theory I could apply different-colored witness marks for the different zeroes and just hot-swap the top rear between slides. Another concern is "must co-witness with BUIS."
When even my fellow rabid anti-Chicom Yoni sings the praises of Holosun, I'm ready to concede they might have a point IF they have a system to fit my purposes.
When even my fellow rabid anti-Chicom Yoni sings the praises of Holosun, I'm ready to concede they might have a point IF they have a system to fit my purposes.
I am not rabid, but I want the Chicoms destroyed for what they have done. I almost dies of dehydration due to having Covid, with no Covid symptoms. I had a fever and couldn't keep anything down in my stomach including water. My company did almost zero business for 2 years due to travel restrictions and the general state of the world.
But I came to understand I own so much stuff with parts in it from the g-dless Chicom bastaards, that after shooting with a friend Holosun, I bought a 509T. The only pistol red dot I like better is the Leupold Delta Micro.
Also I know know that due to the war in Ukraine, the Chicoms own stupidity, they will be gone as a world power in less than 10 years. When they are gone I will go to China for the first and only time to piss on the great wall. Eff them, they are going to die from starvation and lack of energy really soon. Bar B Que at Yoni's when they are gone.
Here's a photo of the installation done by DP Custom Works. Note that I opted not to have the milled portion refinished, so judge it accordingly.
This is direct mount without a plate, which gets you absolute cowitness with suppressor height sights, which is handy for several reasons. One, if you're already used to shooting with suppressor height sights, you won't have to adjust your presentation to account for the dot being higher. Also helps with zeroing.
Going back to what people are saying about the MOS, it is a dirtier installation for sure. Going with the custom milling definitely maintains a very clean, low profile installation.
https://i.imgur.com/z98EyfW.jpg
Here's a photo of the installation done by DP Custom Works. Note that I opted not to have the milled portion refinished, so judge it accordingly.
This is direct mount without a plate, which gets you absolute cowitness with suppressor height sights, which is handy for several reasons. One, if you're already used to shooting with suppressor height sights, you won't have to adjust your presentation to account for the dot being higher. Also helps with zeroing.
Going back to what people are saying about the MOS, it is a dirtier installation for sure. Going with the custom milling definitely maintains a very clean, low profile installation.
https://i.imgur.com/z98EyfW.jpg
Genuinely trying to be helpful here, okie. But I seem to remember a thread from a few months ago where you might have said something about having difficulty with pistol RDS and, IIRC, you were given a bunch of crap about it. I may be misremembering here, so please bear with me. If so, I think you may be giving up a lot more than you think by going with an absolute co-witness, versus something like a lower 1/4th. The purpose of a red dot sight, ANY red dot sight, is to give you the ability to target focus while superimposing the dot on your POA.
Irons work differently, as I know you're well aware, no doubt. So by co-witnessing them in such a small window, you're giving up a significant part of the advantage of a red dot. Because you've essentially converted your RMR into a daylight bright night sight that just brings you back to front sight focus. FWIW.
Genuinely trying to be helpful here, okie. But I seem to remember a thread from a few months ago where you might have said something about having difficulty with pistol RDS and, IIRC, you were given a bunch of crap about it. I may be misremembering here, so please bear with me. If so, I think you may be giving up a lot more than you think by going with an absolute co-witness, versus something like a lower 1/4th. The purpose of a red dot sight, ANY red dot sight, is to give you the ability to target focus while superimposing the dot on your POA.
Irons work differently, as I know you're well aware, no doubt. So by co-witnessing them in such a small window, you're giving up a significant part of the advantage of a red dot. Because you've essentially converted your RMR into a daylight bright night sight that just brings you back to front sight focus. FWIW.
That thread was actually about rifle RDS (before I even got the RMR), and I've been continually misquoted and taken out of context. Me and my red dots are getting along just fine, and have been for 15 years now.
What they found so detestable is that for about the last three years I've slowly come to decide that RDS are not viable as standalone systems. I now consider them to be a compliment to irons, but never a replacement for them. I will no longer use a dot unless in conjunction with irons or an etched reticle.
I came to the point of view that in conjunction with my red dot I only needed a front sight and that if the RD goes down I can still engage the target using the RD as a ghost ring in conjunction with the iron front sight. Now today using the Leupold this is even easier since the tube is so small.
I have the Glock 34 and 35 which are basically the same but for the calibers 9mm and .357sig. I have a Glock 32 which is going to get the Glock hump taken out by me and then a KKM barrel and comp. Night sight front sight and then of course a Leupold Delta Micro.
Genuinely trying to be helpful here, okie. But I seem to remember a thread from a few months ago where you might have said something about having difficulty with pistol RDS and, IIRC, you were given a bunch of crap about it. I may be misremembering here, so please bear with me. If so, I think you may be giving up a lot more than you think by going with an absolute co-witness, versus something like a lower 1/4th. The purpose of a red dot sight, ANY red dot sight, is to give you the ability to target focus while superimposing the dot on your POA.
Irons work differently, as I know you're well aware, no doubt. So by co-witnessing them in such a small window, you're giving up a significant part of the advantage of a red dot. Because you've essentially converted your RMR into a daylight bright night sight that just brings you back to front sight focus. FWIW.
Thank you for this! I think it’s important to call out in this learning thread. It’s one of the points I missed when I started with MRDS and the RMR. It’s now obvious but it was anything but that (to me).
I initially did that because I kept losing the red dot. Irons are easy to find…faulty logic follows and MRDS wasted.
As soon as I moved to the 508T and Sage’s zeroing advice—both thanks to you and DG23–I went with co-withnessing.
So thank you again and good call out.
I would highly recommend the Sage Dynamics videos on zeroing and optimally using these tools
1. Zero: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EINDUy_ZrBc
2.Point of aim: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh9MC7O_CtA
3. White paper and other gems: https://www.sagedynamics.org/
In the past few months I've purchased a couple of pistols that are factory cut for red dot sights. One is a S&W M&P 10mm. The other is an IWI Masada Tactical 9mm. I'd like to start with putting a RDS on the IWI. When it comes to Trijicon ACOGs, I definitely prefer the green illumination. Would I be correct to assume that this translates to RDS, or should I say GDS? What about the dot size? The smallest green dot that Trijicon offers is 9MOA. What are some other quality options? According to IWI's website, the Masada will work with the Trijicon RMR, Vortex Venom, Leupold Delta Point Pro and the Sig Romeo1.
Its 2022, RDS have been around for 10-15 years or so. Is it even a question seriously? Holosun/Trijicon both work, both are excellent. Every pistol should have one.
In the past few months I've purchased a couple of pistols that are factory cut for red dot sights. One is a S&W M&P 10mm. The other is an IWI Masada Tactical 9mm. I'd like to start with putting a RDS on the IWI. When it comes to Trijicon ACOGs, I definitely prefer the green illumination. Would I be correct to assume that this translates to RDS, or should I say GDS? What about the dot size? The smallest green dot that Trijicon offers is 9MOA. What are some other quality options? According to IWI's website, the Masada will work with the Trijicon RMR, Vortex Venom, Leupold Delta Point Pro and the Sig Romeo1.
I definitely wouldn't do 9 MOA. The majority of people who've been using them a while say start with 3 MOA. That's what I got, and I've been very happy with it.
titsonritz
08-26-22, 02:20
I definitely wouldn't do 9 MOA. The majority of people who've been using them a while say start with 3 MOA. That's what I got, and I've been very happy with it.
Jon Dufresne has a 1 MOA on his primary pistol. I'm thinking of going that route myself. I've found my 3.25 MOA larger than I like sometimes, 9 MOA would be insane as far as I'm concerned, can't even picture a need for 6.5 let alone a 9.
titsonritz
08-26-22, 02:31
To his defense, I believe that all the manual adj models revert to auto adj after a set time.
I use the type 2 rm06 this model switch's to auto 16 hours after a manual adj is not made (the buttons are not touched) after 16 hours they figure the gun isn't being used so it goes to auto to conserve battery usage.
To me this is a battery savings option. The only time I've needed to manually adj is at night/in dark situations.
Roger that, good call, you're right. I set my RM06 to current lighting and leave it, but one of my RDS is a Type 2 RM01 and I pretty much hate it. It works fine about 80% of the time and sucks the other 20%.
Its 2022, RDS have been around for 10-15 years or so. Is it even a question seriously? Holosun/Trijicon both work, both are excellent. Every pistol should have one.
I started with a Dr. Optic in spring of 2001, nobody was doing it or writing about it.
I started with a Dr. Optic in spring of 2001, nobody was doing it or writing about it.
Pictures or it didn’t happen
Not serious in the tone, but pictures would be cool
Pictures or it didn’t happen
Not serious in the tone, but pictures would be cool
If I have any pictures of the pistol, they are sitting somewhere in my house in Israel.
But I did see the receipt for the Dr. Optic not that long ago, let me see if I can find it. My biggest problem is that I have stuff in Israel and 2 different locations in the USA.
But it was old school mount fit in the dovetail and the optic sat on top of the slide.
I still have the gun and before Underwood got the 357sig Leighi back in stock it was my carry gun. I bought the gun in the USA, took it to Israel and now back to the USA. The sad part is with the current climate in Israel I don't think it will be able to go back with me. But I am thinking of donating a bunch of my guns to a place I am associated with in Israel and then get them issued to me.
Stopsign32v
08-26-22, 08:06
Jon Dufresne has a 1 MOA on his primary pistol. I'm thinking of going that route myself. I've found my 3.25 MOA larger than I like sometimes, 9 MOA would be insane as far as I'm concerned, can't even picture a need for 6.5 let alone a 9.
I agree with this. If you need to use your pistol you doubtfully will be aiming with sights let alone red dot, more than likely point shooting. But recent events really have got me appreciating the potential need of good distance accuracy out of a CCW pistol so this is where a 1moa would come into play.
If you want to be cheap the Holosun 2moa is nice
I never thought the 3.25 on my RM06 was too large but do feel that I’m more precise with the chevron from my Holosun ACSS Vulcan optics.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
If you want to be cheap the Holosun 2moa is nice
A few guys I know shoot those. They aren't too bad at all. I think the Trijicon round shaped one is my favorite.. SRO, I think. That could be because it rides on a 1911 in 9mm which makes everything seem easy.
StainlessSteelRat
08-26-22, 10:18
I have zero experience with an RDS on a handgun, so this is an interesting thread. Ya'll have got me on the verge of slapping an SRO or whatnot on my Gen 5 G19.
I have zero experience with an RDS on a handgun, so this is an interesting thread. Ya'll have got me on the verge of slapping an SRO or whatnot on my Gen 5 G19.
You should try one. They are definitely more accurate than irons, especially at distance, but do have an initial learning curve to find the dot. Once i spent a little time behind one, i put one on my Glock 19, and now all my pistols have red dots sights.
I really like the new Holosun EPS carry enclosed RDS. I think that type of sight is the future
StainlessSteelRat
08-26-22, 10:31
Thanks, I'll look at that. I didn't get the m.o.s. so I'll need to get the slide cut. Honestly it's spent most of the last year in the safe, I have a Gen 3 G19 I use EDC. Will advise, thanks again.
Great thread, aside from the arguing. Anyway, I’m about to go rds myself. I went with a Holosun scs in green after lots of reading on eyes and why green is better for us older folks. It’s sitting at home and I’ve purchased a g19 mos to put it on. Waiting on my permit. Must say I’m excited.
I have zero experience with an RDS on a handgun, so this is an interesting thread. Ya'll have got me on the verge of slapping an SRO or whatnot on my Gen 5 G19.
I'm hoping for TWO evolutions before I jump in. 1. Universal and Strong/Simple mounting (similar to how we easily mount pic rail for a rifle RDS), and 2. Previously mentioned development of a more robust/reliable optic.
People seem to be perturbed at my vision for the RDS development for whatever reason, but pistols do evolve... like the dustcover light attachment that's almost standard now. I could be wrong, but I predict that RDS on pistol will be standard AND reliable.
Thanks, I'll look at that. I didn't get the m.o.s. so I'll need to get the slide cut. Honestly it's spent most of the last year in the safe, I have a Gen 3 G19 I use EDC. Will advise, thanks again.
Buy a Leupold Delta Micro no need to mill anything. Learn how to use it. Buy it off Amazon so if need be you can return it.
But I bet you will keep it
titsonritz
08-26-22, 12:42
I'm hoping for TWO evolutions before I jump in. 1. Universal and Strong/Simple mounting (similar to how we easily mount pic rail for a rifle RDS), and 2. Previously mentioned development of a more robust/reliable optic.
People seem to be perturbed at my vision for the RDS development for whatever reason, but pistols do evolve... like the dustcover light attachment that's almost standard now. I could be wrong, but I predict that RDS on pistol will be standard AND reliable.
Since this a "Teach Me" thread and you brought up mounting, here is a good resource for the various footprints currently out there...
Footprints/Mounting Standards on Red Dot Sights (https://optics-info.com/footprints-on-red-dot-sights/)
I agree with this. If you need to use your pistol you doubtfully will be aiming with sights let alone red dot, more than likely point shooting. But recent events really have got me appreciating the potential need of good distance accuracy out of a CCW pistol so this is where a 1moa would come into play.
If you want to be cheap the Holosun 2moa is nice
The greatest benefit of the RDS in on a pistol extremely fast and accurate target focused shooting. This translate to all distances.
Dot size a personal preference for sure. I don’t want anything smaller than 5 MOA on any of my guns. I’m way more precise past 25yds with a 5 MOA SRO than even the thinnest front sight would be shooting irons.
The 6 MOA Holosun 407k is awesome on my g43x. Looking forward to their EPS and EPS carry models coming soon.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have zero experience with an RDS on a handgun, so this is an interesting thread. Ya'll have got me on the verge of slapping an SRO or whatnot on my Gen 5 G19.
The SRO does have a nice big window, but just keep in mind they are primarily aimed at competition use. They don't hold up to being dropped. The RMR is solid, however. I have 4 different Holosun red dots on pistols, and I'm very happy with them all. Would recommend.
The greatest benefit of the RDS in on a pistol extremely fast and accurate target focused shooting. This translate to all distances.
Dot size a personal preference for sure. I don’t want anything smaller than 5 MOA on any of my guns. I’m way more precise past 25yds with a 5 MOA SRO than even the thinnest front sight would be shooting irons.
The 6 MOA Holosun 407k is awesome on my g43x. Looking forward to their EPS and EPS carry models coming soon.
I picked up an EPS carry 2 MOA only a few weeks ago from Europtic. It replaced the 507k on my EDC p365xl, so I no longer have to blow fluff out from inside it. The 507k got moved to a p322, where I'm just running it as a 2 MOA dot with the circle turned off. So far, so great.
Roger that, good call, you're right. I set my RM06 to current lighting and leave it, but one of my RDS is a Type 2 RM01 and I pretty much hate it. It works fine about 80% of the time and sucks the other 20%.
The first two rds I got back in 2015 and 2016 were the RM01. They were type 1 and completely useless in situations where a weapon light was used/needed.
I sold them and now all the full size units I have now are type 2 RM06.
The amount I use the manual adj switch is very small, but is there if needed.
I picked up an EPS carry 2 MOA only a few weeks ago from Europtic. It replaced the 507k on my EDC p365xl, so I no longer have to blow fluff out from inside it. The 507k got moved to a p322, where I'm just running it as a 2 MOA dot with the circle turned off. So far, so great.
I'm looking to do the same thing. I have a 507k on my P365XL EDC and hate the build up, not only on the lense, but the emitter. I really want to go closed emitter. How have you liked the EPS carry so far?
Defaultmp3
08-26-22, 14:49
In the past few months I've purchased a couple of pistols that are factory cut for red dot sights. One is a S&W M&P 10mm. The other is an IWI Masada Tactical 9mm. I'd like to start with putting a RDS on the IWI. When it comes to Trijicon ACOGs, I definitely prefer the green illumination. Would I be correct to assume that this translates to RDS, or should I say GDS? What about the dot size? The smallest green dot that Trijicon offers is 9MOA. What are some other quality options? According to IWI's website, the Masada will work with the Trijicon RMR, Vortex Venom, Leupold Delta Point Pro and the Sig Romeo1.The problem with the Trijicon 9 MOA is that it is an optic fiber sight, and not LED based. This means that it is much more likely to wash out than even the auto-adjust.
Dot size is rather personal. That being said, I've heard many folks state that with the larger dots, the auto adjusts work way better and that they are much harder to wash out with a WML, primarily in the context of the RMR 6.5 MOA vs. the RMR 3.25 MOA. That being said, I'm not too sure about a 1 MOA, I wouldn't even want that on a rifle without some kind of larger ring.
Typically, for raw gaming, it seems to be that the highest level folks prefer a single dot to have the cleanest sight picture and ease of reading the dot when hitting small, low-percentage shots. On the flip side, the more complex reticles that incorporate rings and the such seem to offer a slight advantage for larger targets, as there's more reference points to pick up and allows a less refined sight picture.
At this point, especially for a duty gun, I don't see why anyone wouldn't pick an enclosed optic over an open reflex sight, outside of size on NPE guns.
Jon Dufresne has a 1 MOA on his primary pistol. I'm thinking of going that route myself. I've found my 3.25 MOA larger than I like sometimes, 9 MOA would be insane as far as I'm concerned, can't even picture a need for 6.5 let alone a 9.
100% agree. I'm a complete newb to pistol RDS and 3 MOA was very workable right out the gate. I don't think I would want 1 MOA, at least not yet, but I wouldn't want more than the 3 I have, that's for sure.
I've found the Holosun 2 MOA Dot fine for my needs.
In theory, 2 MOA is 1/2" at 25 yds., it actually appears larger than that, even turned down low. Obviously at the brighter levels it "blooms" and appears much larger.
It is possible for me to be very precise with the 2 MOA Dot.
I'm looking to do the same thing. I have a 507k on my P365XL EDC and hate the build up, not only on the lense, but the emitter. I really want to go closed emitter. How have you liked the EPS carry so far?
I anticipated the EPS Carry's release for quite a while, so I jumped on it as soon as I found a 2 MOA only model in stock. It perfectly solves the problem I bought it to solve, namely fluff and dust on the inner window and emitter. The lenses still get some dust on them, of course, but now it's simply a matter of a quick wipe with a shirt, finger, or microfiber cloth. From a usage standpoint, however, I really can't tell the difference between the EPS Carry and the 507k, so that's good.
Decided on the 2 MOA only version for a few reasons. 1.) The longer I've had red dots on pistols, the more confident I am of finding the dot immediately upon presentation. I've even turned off the 32 MOA circle on the other ones that have that option. 2.) Didn't want to wait nor pay for solar equipped dot/circle version. 3.) I have a 6 MOA Romeo 1 Pro (sits in a spare parts bin) that came on a Sig I bought, and I really see the 6 MOA dot as distractingly large for my preference. I won't own another large MOA red dot.
Is the “footprinf” with EPS Carry same as 507/K George? Looks that it might be.
StainlessSteelRat
08-27-22, 08:39
Thanks Yoni, I think I'll try one of those Leupold Micros b4 I get the slide cut. I can always return or sell it if I don't get along with it. Regards, Wayne
Thanks Yoni, I think I'll try one of those Leupold Micros b4 I get the slide cut. I can always return or sell it if I don't get along with it. Regards, Wayne
Wayne it has a learning curve. Look at Pat Macs video on how to present a pistol, for a visual guidance. If you scoop the pistol up like a old time cop, you will have a hard time with it. But if you bring the pistol up high then flat presentation it will work like a charm. Also I changed out my front sight from a black plain sight to a bright colored insert that surrounds the tritium . This speeded things up also.
Lastly dry fire a ton with it, you will go through an evolution and soon it will almost be like the dot is just floating in space. So you will go from looking through the tube to it almost not being there, then just put the dot on the target and get to work.
Wayne it has a learning curve. Look at Pat Macs video on how to present a pistol, for a visual guidance. If you scoop the pistol up like a old time cop, you will have a hard time with it. But if you bring the pistol up high then flat presentation it will work like a charm. Also I changed out my front sight from a black plain sight to a bright colored insert that surrounds the tritium . This speeded things up also.
Lastly dry fire a ton with it, you will go through an evolution and soon it will almost be like the dot is just floating in space. So you will go from looking through the tube to it almost not being there, then just put the dot on the target and get to work.
Heck I'm almost sold on the idea. I'd put it on my full size M&P 2.0 .45.
StainlessSteelRat
08-28-22, 19:51
Wayne it has a learning curve. Look at Pat Macs video on how to present a pistol, for a visual guidance. If you scoop the pistol up like a old time cop, you will have a hard time with it. But if you bring the pistol up high then flat presentation it will work like a charm. Also I changed out my front sight from a black plain sight to a bright colored insert that surrounds the tritium . This speeded things up also.
Lastly dry fire a ton with it, you will go through an evolution and soon it will almost be like the dot is just floating in space. So you will go from looking through the tube to it almost not being there, then just put the dot on the target and get to work.
I watched the video, makes a lot of sense. I noticed the one time I looked though an RDS on a friend's Sig, I had a hell of a time finding the dot. Which I thought was wierd, as I'm used to using an Aimpoint on an AR. Hopefully an old dog can learn a new trick. Thanks again, Yoni
Remember it has a learning curve as do all red dots on pistols.
I went back to Glocks as my EDC for 3 reasons.
1. Glock 35 converted to 357sig
2. Easy to get 6" 357 sig barrel for Glock. Impossible for CZ P09
3. I was converted to closed emitter RDS and then found the Leupold Delta Micro. Which I think is the future of red dot sights.
Then I said ok I hate the Glock grip hump and said what the heck, it is an ugly pistol anyway so I got rid of the hump and now they fit my hand a lot better. Also invested in a better trigger, so it all came together and it gets the job done. Trigger on my CZ P10F comp is a little better, but I really am sure it would be a good self defense trigger.
When it comes to speed, the learning curve is indeed steep. That said, it will instantly extend your range by maybe double. I struggle to make 25 yard hits with irons, and the first day out with the dot I was making 50 yard hits like they were nothing, with the same gun. It will basically give your compact pistol the long range capability of a long slide with target sights.
I only mention that because while the learning curve is there, there is some instant gratification that makes the process extremely enjoyable.
Even tho I have pistols with Holosuns, after reading Yoni's posts I decided to give one a try. I have a couple of Gen 2 G19's I didn't want to have the slides milled so I thought it would be a perfect match. And the fact that I found them for $270 shipped to me, I thought what the hell! Well after trying it I ordered a second one for the other G19. They do take a little while to get used to, but it's not all that bad if you are accustomed to RDS's. While I don't have the experience as many here, I do believe they are a great way to get started with RDS's for little money and no modifications done to your pistol. If you don't like it, you simply remove it and put your rear site back on. I am not sure if this is proper, but I''l put a link below if anyone is interested in one for that price. The only downside the site says it may take up to 30 days to receive it! Mine took almost that long. Oh, I am not affiliated with that site in any way, shape or form, just trying to pass on a good deal to anyone interested. Being how I got it so cheap is probably the biggest reason I tried one as I have other RDS pistols.
https://dackoutdoors.com/product/leu-deltapoint-micro-3-moa-dot-matte-glock
Is the “footprinf” with EPS Carry same as 507/K George? Looks that it might be.
It sure is, brother. The EPS, EPS Carry, 507k, and 407k all share the same footprint.
titsonritz
08-29-22, 12:20
It sure is, brother. The EPS, EPS Carry, 507k, and 407k all share the same footprint.
Check post #90 for RDS footprint information.
Since this a "Teach Me" thread and you brought up mounting, here is a good resource for the various footprints currently out there...
Footprints/Mounting Standards on Red Dot Sights (https://optics-info.com/footprints-on-red-dot-sights/)
Massive amount of info (which I completely missed).
Thank you Tits. And George.
Even tho I have pistols with Holosuns, after reading Yoni's posts I decided to give one a try. I have a couple of Gen 2 G19's I didn't want to have the slides milled so I thought it would be a perfect match. And the fact that I found them for $270 shipped to me, I thought what the hell! Well after trying it I ordered a second one for the other G19. They do take a little while to get used to, but it's not all that bad if you are accustomed to RDS's. While I don't have the experience as many here, I do believe they are a great way to get started with RDS's for little money and no modifications done to your pistol. If you don't like it, you simply remove it and put your rear site back on. I am not sure if this is proper, but I''l put a link below if anyone is interested in one for that price. The only downside the site says it may take up to 30 days to receive it! Mine took almost that long. Oh, I am not affiliated with that site in any way, shape or form, just trying to pass on a good deal to anyone interested. Being how I got it so cheap is probably the biggest reason I tried one as I have other RDS pistols.
https://dackoutdoors.com/product/leu-deltapoint-micro-3-moa-dot-matte-glock
You tempt me greatly sir. This unit is up to $399 on amazon now. I've never heard of Dacks. Did you get it quickly? Have you done much business with them?
You tempt me greatly sir. This unit is up to $399 on amazon now. I've never heard of Dacks. Did you get it quickly? Have you done much business with them?
I searched for Dack Outdoors and the information in the link reports the company may not be reputable.
https://www.findarms.com/pattonsburg/ffl-dealer/dack-outdoors/reviews/122
I searched for Dack Outdoors and the information in the link reports the company may not be reputable.
https://www.findarms.com/pattonsburg/ffl-dealer/dack-outdoors/reviews/122
Thanks, there are a lot of damning reviews there. Usually the case when something seems too good to be true.
I've ordered from Dack Outdoors twice. They are very very slow, but ultimately did come through. I don't know why they're taking so long. Other companies that drop ship from warehouses seem to be able to get things shipped out in a couple of days. My last order from them was a Walther PPS M2 BB pistol. By the time it arrived over a month after I ordered it, I swore that I'd never buy from them again regardless of the price.
There are a lot of very small companies that undercut MSRP and sometimes MAP on Holosuns. Usually sold as “open box” or only with a discount code. Covert Tactical is pretty good.
titsonritz
08-31-22, 14:31
There are a lot of very small companies that undercut MSRP and sometimes MAP on Holosuns. Usually sold as “open box” or only with a discount code. Covert Tactical is pretty good.
Leopold DeltaPoint Micro - $309 open box sale if anyone is interested...
https://cstactical.com/leupold-deltapoint-micro-glock/
I have had good results with my RDS guns, but the reality is regardless of their shortcomings, my eyesight is so bad and my shooting as well without a RDS on my handguns makes it a critical necessity. Hell I could point and shoot with no sights inside my house with a handgun and make center mass hits but I'd always prefer sights obviously. Also I have BUIS and my carry guns should the dot take a shit.
PB
Stopsign32v
09-08-22, 12:08
Leopold DeltaPoint Micro - $309 open box sale if anyone is interested...
https://cstactical.com/leupold-deltapoint-micro-glock/
What the hell is that
titsonritz
09-08-22, 13:13
What the hell is that
Got to post #2 in this thread as well as the follow up posts.
There is also this one...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?236823-Trying-to-understand-pistol-optics-better&p=3049143#post3049143
I just bought a very slightly used Leupold Delta micro for $150 ,:dance3:
With some of the negativity about Dack Outdoors here, I thought I should wait until I received my second one before I posted again. Just like the first one, it took almost 30 days to receive it! I am not upset at all because the website states numerous places that it could take up to 30 days to get your order. They also state on their website that if you are in a hurry to receive an order, you would be better off looking elsewhere. Would I order from them again, probably not, unless I wanted another one and wasn’t in a big hurry to get one. These are kind of just experimental for me as I have other pistols with Holosuns on them. I wasn’t in a big hurry to get them and I saved at least $130 per unit over anywhere else I could find a new one. I am Farsighted, with my cheaters I can see the sights but not the target. Without my cheaters I can see the target but not the sights. The RDS’s are a game changer for me, and I am trying to outfit most of my pistols with them. Here's the first one. YMMV
https://i.imgur.com/dUR7TGt.jpg?1
I continue to get a lot of time shooting the Pistol RDS set ups as an unbiased observer. I don't have a financial or emotional stake in the concept one way or another except to say that I do think the future is the RDS for sure.
I'm still firmly convinced that there HAS TO BE a painful realization that the mounting system needs to be BOTH standardized and completely RE-Designed. This fragile fastener approach is not acceptable.
I'm certain the sights themselves will naturally evolve into much more reliable versions, but the mounting has got to move past the American Mediocrity stage, and get to something WAY more robust. From there, the evolution of the sights themselves can move forward around a good mounting method.
Is the RDS pistol only an advantage for an advanced shooter or suitable for a newer shooter as well?
Is the RDS pistol only an advantage for an advanced shooter or suitable for a newer shooter as well?
I would say all shooters should see an advantage. However, if you don’t put the training in, you will not benefit. Just like irons.
PB
I wonder if the increased ease of single plane focus for a newer shooter is offset by less recoil control and thus inability to find the dot.
I got the "used" Delta Micro and I don't think the guy even mounted it on a pistol. I think he held it up. tried to look through it and then sold it.
I am going to give it to a friend and will be mounting it on his glock tomorrow.
I wonder if the increased ease of single plane focus for a newer shooter is offset by less recoil control and thus inability to find the dot.
It emphasizes lack of fundamentals like grip. So it’s no better or worse for an experienced or new shooter: both can learn where they need to improve (a novice hopefully has a training setting for this).
I wonder if the increased ease of single plane focus for a newer shooter is offset by less recoil control and thus inability to find the dot.
If its for a complete newb to be able to use immediately, irons. If its a new shooter that is going to actually practice abd want to get proficient, i would jump straight to a dot.
So my non gun guy friend that I gave him the Delta micro, took to it like a duck to water. He had me put it on his Glock 26 since that is what he carries every day. Now he wants one for his Glock 17.
I'm getting better with my Beretta M92X and 507c after lots of practice.
Shooting yes, but lots and lots of draws and more presentations both two and one handed.
However, I am intrigued by this Leopold Delta micro and I've thought about putting an RDS on my M&P 2.0 .45 so I've ordered one for it.
The nice thing is I don't have to modify the gun and I can easily put the optic on an M&P 2.0 9mm Compact or Sheild because it fits all but Core and "EZ" models of these frames.
Un popular opinion, I'm still not sold on them for SD pistols due in large part to people I generally trust, who have forgotten more about combat handguns then I will ever know, not being sold on them.
Pros and cons, still not convinced the pros out weigh cons enough to invest the $, have to now train up to being proficient with them, etc.
My minimal experience with them didn't leave me with a "I gotta have that on my carry pistol!" impression at all. Quite the opposite.
I was not an early adopter of RDS on handguns but I'm sold now.
Doing drills side by side on the time between a RDS and irons only gun tell the tail. Speed and accuracy really improved beyond 7 yards and allow for a target focus instead of front sight at all ranges.
Does everyone need it, when the typical SD shooting is <3 shot, <3 seconds, <3 yards? No, probably not - people survived for decades without them - but to me, outside of close contact range shooting, I'm glad to have them on my carry handguns.
I started with RMRs, but those are piggyback on rifles now and Holosun 507C/K and 509s are what I use on handguns.
Un popular opinion, I'm still not sold on them for SD pistols due in large part to people I generally trust, who have forgotten more about combat handguns then I will ever know, not being sold on them.
Pros and cons, still not convinced the pros out weigh cons enough to invest the $, have to now train up to being proficient with them, etc.
My minimal experience with them didn't leave me with a "I gotta have that on my carry pistol!" impression at all. Quite the opposite.
I'm betting in 2-5 years, the mounting and reliability will be greatly improved. I'm no where near pulling the trigger on an RDS pistol set up for myself, but I do feel they're advantageous for pistol marksmanship for sure. I get to shoot these set ups weekly, and the RDS is a good thing.
I was not an early adopter of RDS on handguns but I'm sold now.
Doing drills side by side on the time between a RDS and irons only gun tell the tail. Speed and accuracy really improved beyond 7 yards and allow for a target focus instead of front sight at all ranges.
Does everyone need it, when the typical SD shooting is <3 shot, <3 seconds, <3 yards? No, probably not - people survived for decades without them - but to me, outside of close contact range shooting, I'm glad to have them on my carry handguns.
I started with RMRs, but those are piggyback on rifles now and Holosun 507C/K and 509s are what I use on handguns.
And do they improve the scores in those reality based SD distances? I have no doubts at farther distances, they are superior for hits on targets. My personal interests are realistic and statistically "real world" supported SD distances and times, and as important, peripheral vision, SA, weight, size added to CCW, etc. and of course reliability of the RMR.
I'm betting in 2-5 years, the mounting and reliability will be greatly improved. I'm no where near pulling the trigger on an RDS pistol set up for myself, but I do feel they're advantageous for pistol marksmanship for sure. I get to shoot these set ups weekly, and the RDS is a good thing.
I'd want to get a separate dedicated pistol for that to train up on, and that's cost of pistol, RDS, and added ammo and time and perhaps a course to all that, and for myself, does not add up to $ spent and time I could use to work on skill with existing non RDS pistols.
I do see both sides of the equation, but I'm at best made it to neutral on it now. I wanted to do that on the new Wilson, but don't like their mounting system, and good RMRs (and anything less than the good stuff of no interest to me) are the cost of another pistol or could go towards a lot of ammo.
Need to borrow or even rent an RMR pistol and spend some more range time with it.
Defaultmp3
10-10-22, 11:28
And do they improve the scores in those reality based SD distances? I have no doubts at farther distances, they are superior for hits on targets. My personal interests are realistic and statistically "real world" supported SD distances and times, and as important, peripheral vision, SA, weight, size added to CCW, etc. and of course reliability of the RMR.The ability to be target focused gives you far more situational awareness when using an RDS. As for "reality based SD distances", the advantage of an RDS is skewed toward accuracy, and that is applicable at any distance.
I'd want to get a separate dedicated pistol for that to train up on, and that's cost of pistol, RDS, and added ammo and time and perhaps a course to all that, and for myself, does not add up to $ spent and time I could use to work on skill with existing non RDS pistols.The cost of an RDS is a case or two of 9mm; you would likely get far more out of a pistol with an RDS than you would with those couple cases of ammo, simply because it gives way more visual feedback, particularly when doing dry practice. The transition from irons to RDS can be done almost totally dry, as you can easily work draws and transitions totally dry.
However, I am intrigued by this Leopold Delta micro and I've thought about putting an RDS on my M&P 2.0 .45 so I've ordered one for it.
Please try it in very low light where it is hard to orient the pistol by silhouette. It seems like it could be hard to find the dot in that circumstance.
The ability to be target focused gives you far more situational awareness when using an RDS. As for "reality based SD distances", the advantage of an RDS is skewed toward accuracy, and that is applicable at any distance.
The cost of an RDS is a case or two of 9mm; you would likely get far more out of a pistol with an RDS than you would with those couple cases of ammo, simply because it gives way more visual feedback, particularly when doing dry practice. The transition from irons to RDS can be done almost totally dry, as you can easily work draws and transitions totally dry.
That makes sense and an aspect I had not considered. That helps with $ part for sure.
Need to borrow or even rent an RMR pistol and spend some more range time with it.
That's a start. But you kinda need a holster set up too. Shooting from the draw gives you the full experience. For me finding the dot on a gun I'm not used to can be a challenge.... especially in time compressed drills.
And do they improve the scores in those reality based SD distances?
I guess the proper term is the most 'probable' SD distances.
But in reality if you play the odds, you are fine carrying nothing at all. Or a 5 shot j-frame with no sights.
Most here want to tip the odds heavily in their favor in all realms.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-10-22, 18:01
I don't know about that. But I do know the RDS has a lot of room for reliability improvement. I'm all for the RDS on pistols. I just want them at the level of reliability that you'd get with an H1 on a carbine for example.
I never see buddies standing on the firing line tryna figger out why their rifle dot aint working.... or why it's not zeroed, etc. My only rifle RDS failure was due to that stupid dip finish on the upper that let the mount break loose.
Your experience is in line with mine. I have an RMR on my Berretta and an Acro P2 on my Glock. The Acro is new and has been good. But the RMR has shaken loose multiple times. Mind you, I typically shoot every weekend and do a shitload of draws and barrier drills, so maybe my use is a little rougher than some. But The fact of the matter is that You have to be very careful with cleaning, locktite, torque settings and even additional oil pen staking and still the thing is going to come loose. I think the best way to go would be a frame mount or one of the weird setups like the Alien. Rocking back and forth on the slide is hard on optics and mounts, that's just a fact.
That being said I keep practicing with them. I am pretty close to my irons sight times up close on the timer and of course walk-back drills with the ACRO are absurd and put the irons to shame.
Please try it in very low light where it is hard to orient the pistol by silhouette. It seems like it could be hard to find the dot in that circumstance.
I will, thanks.
But based on my experience so far presentation has to be very good on a full size RDS to get an immediate dot. I don't think that will be different with a smaller housing.
It's not different when trying to get a great sight picture immediately on a front sight, either. The difference to me is I can start tracking the front sight with peripheral vision long before the gun gets near my face. You can't do that with a high, FS optic. But it might be possible with the very low Leopold Micro.
That makes sense and an aspect I had not considered. That helps with $ part for sure.
Its true.
You know those devices that go in the chamber of your gun and project a laser when you dry fire for in-home training?
Well, an RDS does the same thing. When the hammer drops you can "call your shot" and you'll know you were off-target just like you often can in live-fire.
And while you pull through the trigger you can watch the dot move low-left or whatever it's doing to go off-target and immediately adjust and correct your grip and press to fix it without firing a shot.
All the time target focus.
It took me a while to come around to RMRs, but now I'm 100pct behind them. I was afraid they wouldn't be reliable enough for self defense use, so why bother? However, first I went blind in my left eye, then...I got older. I was looking something to help bring back that edge. The Trijicon absolutely got me back where I wanted to be and then some. It's helped by allowing me to simply putting the dot on the target because I was having trouble focusing on the front sight. I can't explain it, but its also helped me line up my weak hand with my dominant eye.
I've shot who knows how many thousands of rounds with my RDS mounted G45. It's been through general practice, classes, work, and beaten up on the farm. Now, I'll admit, it was much slower to learn to pick up the dot than I had planned on. It wasn't as natural as lining up the front sight for a long time.
One thing for those who have noted that theirs have come lose. I don't have the MOS version. I had ATEI cut my slide for the trijicon. I don't know if that has anything to do with its reliability.
Un popular opinion, I'm still not sold on them for SD pistols due in large part to people I generally trust, who have forgotten more about combat handguns then I will ever know, not being sold on them.
Pros and cons, still not convinced the pros out weigh cons enough to invest the $, have to now train up to being proficient with them, etc.
My minimal experience with them didn't leave me with a "I gotta have that on my carry pistol!" impression at all. Quite the opposite.
I'm with you on this one. I found the dot difficult to aquire, it would be somewhere outside the window and I would have to hunt to find it, then get it on target. I'm much faster with iron sights on pistols. In all fairness, I've only tried it a few times and haven't put a lot of time into practicing with a RDS on a pistol. As someone earlier in the thread mentioned, a lot of practice drawing and presentation would probably be required. They obviously work for people who have practiced and mastered them. I will say that once I did aquire the red dot, I found it easier to be accurate and make hits at long range. For now I am running red dots on my rifles and iron sights on my pistols.
I view real life shooting as a math problem, that involves time and distance. The less distance you have the less time you have and then the more distance the more time you have. The only consistent is the need for accuracy.
Range 0 to 7 yards, if you are shooting and dry firing enough you should be able to present your pistol and get good results without even really needing sights and I don't care if your sights are irons only or red dot.
As the distance increases then we need to use sights to get the accuracy we desire. I think this is where the Leupold delta really outshines the bigger red dot sights. I have been using red dots on my carry pistol since spring of 2001, but I will be honest and say in stress drills,training, and shooting competition that sometimes I will get a bad presentation which with a big red dot results in hunting for the red dot. In this situation with the Delta micro, since it sits so low on the pistol I find that in the majority of times that I can see the front sight in the scope and start shooting using the small tube like a ghost ring and correct to bring the dot into play as rounds are going down range, still getting acceptable hits. I really think the Delta micro is the future of red dots, if people will try them. As stated before with the Delta Micro I have got to the point it seems the dot is just there and the sight body kind of goes away and I see the whole target area better than with the bigger red dots.
Next pistol to get one with be my CZ P10F comp., but this will need some machining time, to get it done.
Your experience is in line with mine. I have an RMR on my Berretta and an Acro P2 on my Glock. The Acro is new and has been good. But the RMR has shaken loose multiple times. Mind you, I typically shoot every weekend and do a shitload of draws and barrier drills, so maybe my use is a little rougher than some. But The fact of the matter is that You have to be very careful with cleaning, locktite, torque settings and even additional oil pen staking and still the thing is going to come loose. I think the best way to go would be a frame mount or one of the weird setups like the Alien. Rocking back and forth on the slide is hard on optics and mounts, that's just a fact.
That being said I keep practicing with them. I am pretty close to my irons sight times up close on the timer and of course walk-back drills with the ACRO are absurd and put the irons to shame.
I got to re-mount one that came loose. The slide was tapped for both mounting templates... so I got to see what's going on with the seriously lacking mounting of pistol sights. If were still using the same mounting method in 2-3 years, then shame on American mediocrity.
I'm betting we'll look back on this time as the dark ages of RDS pistol sights. There's too big of a market/movement for what's being used now to be acceptable in the long run. STANDARIZE THE MOUNTING SYSTEM!!! (and make it way better - I wish Toyota build 1911s with RDS)
But based on my experience so far presentation has to be very good on a full size RDS to get an immediate dot. I don't think that will be different with a smaller housing.
This is why I like the concept of the ACSS Vulcan reticle. I wish I could try that and orienting the DeltaPoint Micro using the front sight and slide silhouette, each in a variety of lighting conditions, but I cannot afford to buy both.
Your experience is in line with mine. I have an RMR on my Berretta and an Acro P2 on my Glock. The Acro is new and has been good. But the RMR has shaken loose multiple times.
I wonder if it's the Beretta not the RMR..? Or the screws you are using?
I've had RMRs on 3 Glocks, zero issues. Now Holosuns on 5 Glocks (4 RMR / 507C footprint, one 509), zero issues.
But I do locktite, torque, and mark screws on all optics on all weapons as a matter of habit.
This is why I like the concept of the ACSS Vulcan reticle.
It is awesome. I like the ^ and the circle when compared to just a dot.
I wonder if it's the Beretta not the RMR..? Or the screws you are using?
My observation is that it's tolerance stacking on a special Olympian level. Slide milling, fasteners, etc. This crap will all be a bad memory some day. The concept is too good to stop improving it.
My observation is that it's tolerance stacking on a special Olympian level. Slide milling, fasteners, etc. This crap will all be a bad memory some day. The concept is too good to stop improving it.
I think direct milling is the best option, but we need a uniform footprint... or a uniform attatchment method.
I have close to 20k on my atei g19 removed it once to replace the battery, zero did not change. Never had a flicker issue and its an rmr type1.
pointblank4445
10-11-22, 20:18
I have close to 20k on my atei g19 removed it once to replace the battery, zero did not change. Never had a flicker issue and its an rmr type1.
Same, stupid amounts of rounds on my ATEi guns with no loose bolts despite never using loctite. Not the same story for the guns with plates. Worst offender was my Staccato P...no matter what I did, 500-600 rounds the zero/POI would be off and the optic would wiggle like a loose tooth.
Footprint uniformity is the biggest hurdle.
Kinda looking forward to something like this supposed B&T striker gun where they're just like "F*ck it...it's gonna be an ACRO mount...take it or leave it".
ViniVidivici
10-11-22, 23:38
Range 0 to 7 yards, if you are shooting and dry firing enough you should be able to present your pistol and get good results without even really needing sights and I don't care if your sights are irons only or red dot.
This, SO much. If you're not experiencing this, you've got work to do, regardless.
If you're already "there", transitioning to the dot isn't too big of a deal, and it just makes things even better.
Delta Point Micro came in faster than expected.
Installation is simple. Or it would have been. Why did I use Red loctite on S&W rear sight screw instead of Blue?! My only guess is I'd run out of Blue because "I put that ---- on everything." so I used a little Red. Ruined a hex wrench.
Anyway I've only had 20m to play with it, no range time yet.
First impressions are very good. I present just like I'm using irons because it's on the same plane. I can actually track the front sight during the draw and get my eye behind the tube, if I want. This isn't the best practice to use a red dot but it could be done if a person new to RDS needed a crutch.
Otherwise nothing changes from using irons except once you learn good presentation you can keep your focus on the target and the dot just overlays.
In good light the front sight is visible. And the optic includes a wide rear sight in case the dot fails. In low light I couldn't see the front sight, the bright dot will obscure it.
Speaking of the dot, I have astigmatism and it's a dot when low, goes to a tight group of grapes when brighter, and then becomes a star burst that makes the whole tube glow red at the brightest level.
It is very bright in bright sun. There are 8 levels.
The dot appearing on the front sight post is of no consequence.
Picking up the dot quickly shouldn't be any different than on a typical, larger optic. It just takes practice. But I can't really promise that until I hit the range with a timer side by side with another pistol with a larger optic.
Ron3
Regarding the front sight replace it with a night sight, I used a night sight where the glowing stuff( I hit on the wrong word in spell correct and now it doesn't want to give me the correct spelling) was surrounded by a bright green circle. This will help speed you up in all lighting conditions.
Ron3
Regarding the front sight replace it with a night sight, I used a night sight where the glowing stuff( I hit on the wrong word in spell correct and now it doesn't want to give me the correct spelling) was surrounded by a bright green circle. This will help speed you up in all lighting conditions.
Thanks!
I think direct milling is the best option, but we need a uniform footprint... or a uniform attatchment method.
I hope that's the future. But here we are on the rifles using Mlok garbage, so maybe I'm overly optimistic.
I prefer direct milled slides for RDS; Jagerworks and Battlewerx did good on my Glocks, but Battlewerxs gets the sights much lower, to the point you can use regular sights with RMR / 507C / 507K cuts; my 509-ACSS needed suppressor height so likely that an Acro would as well.
Jagerworks took forever and is a bit higher mount (mine is for RMR/507C); I initially used an adaptor plate for the 509-ACSS but it was stooopid high setup like that so I sent in an extra G19 slide to be milled for it. The work was nice, I just prefer lower mounts.
The Brownells G19 / RMR milled slides are good as well and you can use normal irons as well, or at least once you are comfortable with them being useable but at the bottom of the window (as I am).
I hope that's the future. But here we are on the rifles using Mlok garbage, so maybe I'm overly optimistic.
What is wrong with M-LOK?
titsonritz
10-13-22, 23:15
What is wrong with M-LOK?
Besides being vastly inferior to Picatinny?
Defaultmp3
10-14-22, 00:37
Besides being vastly inferior to Picatinny? What makes it vastly inferior to 1913?
Besides being vastly inferior to Picatinny?
Yep. Solution looking for a problem dreamed up to sell something new. And it sucks balls.
Other than being a total Glock fan boy, generally has good info:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW5jgm_6KJo
Yep. Solution looking for a problem dreamed up to sell something new. And it sucks balls.
I thought the idea was your forend would have smooth slots instead of sharp rails?
Defaultmp3
10-14-22, 11:28
Yep. Solution looking for a problem dreamed up to sell something new. And it sucks balls. So... why does it suck? And I personally see a lot of benefits in it, such as lower manufacturing costs, the possibility of a smaller OD for a handguard while still being able to mount things, less snaggy, less weight, etc.
So... why does it suck?.
It requires brain cells to mount something to it correctly.
Other than being a total Glock fan boy, generally has good info:
I have made my Glocks into something that is acceptable, not cause I love Glocks. But nobody has the after market of Glock.
I have made my Glocks into something that is acceptable, not cause I love Glocks. But nobody has the after market of Glock.
Makes sense. Not a Glock hater, just not a fan boy. Not a fan of the ergos, the trigger or the sights, but they do what they're suppose to do, and have max after market goodness.
Makes sense. Not a Glock hater, just not a fan boy. Not a fan of the ergos, the trigger or the sights, but they do what they're suppose to do, and have max after market goodness.
Ergos changed, trigger changed, sights changed, barrel changed. Stock slide.
I used to hate Glocks even though I owned them and used them for real.
My new pistol with only a Glock slide, I don't know if it is Glock any more. It now fits my hands better, trigger is not 1911 but it is no longer really a Glock trigger.
Ergos changed, trigger changed, sights changed, barrel changed. Stock slide.
I used to hate Glocks even though I owned them and used them for real.
My new pistol with only a Glock slide, I don't know if it is Glock any more. It now fits my hands better, trigger is not 1911 but it is no longer really a Glock trigger.
That's a lot of changes to make to get a pistol you want. I see the value of Glocks really in those after market options you mentioned.
titsonritz
10-14-22, 14:18
What makes it vastly inferior to 1913?
1913 is much easier and faster to mount stuff, it is a stronger attachment method and there is zero concern with placement trying to avoid interference with the gas block, gas tube or barrel.
It requires brain cells to mount something to it correctly.
It isn't rocket surgery but there is no denying 1913 is easier and faster to mount something.
titsonritz
10-14-22, 14:20
So... why does it suck? And I personally see a lot of benefits in it, such as lower manufacturing costs, the possibility of a smaller OD for a handguard while still being able to mount things, less snaggy, less weight, etc.
I don't think they suck and you are correct with the benefit, like everything else there are pros and cons to both.
I bought them a long time ago and have shot them a bunch, it was time for a change. But nobody made what I wanted .
So here is the breakdown on cost for new parts.
1. Frame was a little over $80 on sale
2. New front sight and Leupold Delta $260
3. New trigger, trigger bar and return spring like $75
4. KKM 6 inch 357 sig barrel $165
Took all the rest of the parts off the Glock frame the connector was original - connector. The trigger is not as light as my SA on my CZ Cajun P07 which is 2.5 pounds, but it isn't over 3.5 pounds
I bought them a long time ago and have shot them a bunch, it was time for a change. But nobody made what I wanted .
So here is the breakdown on cost for new parts.
1. Frame was a little over $80 on sale
2. New front sight and Leupold Delta $260
3. New trigger, trigger bar and return spring like $75
4. KKM 6 inch 357 sig barrel $165
Took all the rest of the parts off the Glock frame the connector was original - connector. The trigger is not as light as my SA on my CZ Cajun P07 which is 2.5 pounds, but it isn't over 3.5 pounds
All the after market offerings does allow you to choose/mix and match and customize a pistol that fits and and needs no doubt. That's a strong plus for Glock I hadn't really calculated, gotten to lazy over the years to muck with pistols like that I admit. I did find the HK VP9 so good out of the box, there was little changes I wanted to make, none I needed to make.
M&P I had, I did changed the sights and added Apex trigger kit. Was not terribly accurate, but boringly reliable.
The VP9 is surprisingly accurate and been boringly reliable.
New vid from Ken H on red dots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjlL0hYgdag
New vid from Ken H on red dots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjlL0hYgdag
Really great video and just confirms a lot of my thinking on pistol red dots. The biggest disadvantage in my opinion is the possibility of losing the dot, having to reacquire the dot, or if the dot has failed, switching to irons. On a rifle it's completely different. It's very easy to get behind your optic on a rifle. With four points of contact and a longer stick which naturally helps to get lined up correctly, the dot is gonna be there, you won't have to hunt to find it. With a pistol being held out in front of you at arm's length and only supported by your wrists, it's much easier to have a slight misalignment, and it doesn't take much for the dot to be out of the window. Smaller optic, farther away from your eye = less forgiving of misalignment.
His points about the amount of practice required get proficient with one and the extra added maintenance made a lot of sense too. I love red dots on rifles, they're proven and work great. There's no denying the aiming advantage they have over iron sights. Full size red dots made for rifles have rock solid mounting and longer battery life and it's not something that really needs to be worried about compared to the mini red dots on pistols.
I'd still like to aquire one at some point for range practice. But for carry pistol I'll be sticking with irons for the foreseeable future.
Really great video and just confirms a lot of my thinking on pistol red dots. The biggest disadvantage in my opinion is the possibility of losing the dot, having to reacquire the dot, or if the dot has failed, switching to irons. On a rifle it's completely different. It's very easy to get behind your optic on a rifle. With four points of contact and a longer stick which naturally helps to get lined up correctly, the dot is gonna be there, you won't have to hunt to find it. With a pistol being held out in front of you at arm's length and only supported by your wrists, it's much easier to have a slight misalignment, and it doesn't take much for the dot to be out of the window. Smaller optic, farther away from your eye = less forgiving of misalignment.
His points about the amount of practice required get proficient with one and the extra added maintenance made a lot of sense too. I love red dots on rifles, they're proven and work great. There's no denying the aiming advantage they have over iron sights. Full size red dots made for rifles have rock solid mounting and longer battery life and it's not something that really needs to be worried about compared to the mini red dots on pistols.
I'd still like to aquire one at some point for range practice. But for carry pistol I'll be sticking with irons for the foreseeable future.
I'm still 50/50 on red dots on pistols, slowly getting toward 60/40 in favor as members convince me of the value.
I'm still 50/50 on red dots on pistols, slowly getting toward 60/40 in favor as members convince me of the value.
I'm on the sideline for another 2-3 years at least. I have to see better mounting and reliability before digging into my wallet.
I'm still 50/50 on red dots on pistols, slowly getting toward 60/40 in favor as members convince me of the value.
I'm open minded. I was reading the other thread too and seeing some of the members emphatically state that they are better once you train enough to overcome the issues I mentioned. Like I said I would like to own one and give training with it a real try.
ViniVidivici
10-21-22, 12:35
I fully agree that mounting issues and all the different footprints are a bit ridiculous...when I saw all of them, I thought "why not just machine a pic rail into the slide and have everything fit that?!?!"
Understandable though, design and manufacturing proprietary issues in the beginning endure.
No matter though. It's still more than doable. Seems like you cant go wrong with the RMR footprint for a solid open emitter type.
I'll say that cost was always the main thing keeping me out of this loop...I finally said eff it and bit the bullet, glad I did.
I'd always factored the cost of a case worth of ammo/components to get up to speed, but was delighted to realize that a few hundred rounds in, I was confident and capable with it.
No expert here, just a mediocre shooter, as anyone can see looking at my DOTW entries over on P-F, so if I can get there, anyone can.
I fully agree that mounting issues and all the different footprints are a bit ridiculous...when I saw all of them, I thought "why not just machine a pic rail into the slide and have everything fit that?!?!"
A 1913 rail would be too wide I think, with the clamp wider than the G19 slide.
ViniVidivici
10-21-22, 15:38
A 1913 rail would be too wide I think, with the clamp wider than the G19 slide.
Incorrect, it wouldn't overhang any more than any RMR footprint optic body already does, but the point is pic rail or something like it being the standard would have made things much simpler to begin with. Lack of foresight and wanting to keep things somewhat proprietary put us where we are.
Yep. There's a painful transition that will have to happen whether we like it or not. There's guns with slides that have internal components in the back of the slide that make this a challenge, but the RDS is here to stay, so they WILL have to get it right sooner or later.
I get the concept of a single mount standard, but the EPS is a great example of new tech not working with the old (RMR) mount standard. There just isn’t the same kind of size and packaging constraints on a flat top AR to compare the two.
I just bought a Sig Macro, so I only need to decide 407k, or wait for the EPS carry to restock and start with enclosed. Not at all worried about mounting systems for my first pistol dot.
titsonritz
10-21-22, 23:28
I get the concept of a single mount standard, but the EPS is a great example of new tech not working with the old (RMR) mount standard. There just isn’t the same kind of size and packaging constraints on a flat top AR to compare the two.
I just bought a Sig Macro, so I only need to decide 407k, or wait for the EPS carry to restock and start with enclosed. Not at all worried about mounting systems for my first pistol dot.
The SCS-MOS is the slick one IMO.
The SCS-MOS is the slick one IMO.
Another good example of my point. A year ago the MOS was dumb idea for people afraid to commit to slide milling. Now it looks to be the lowest direct mount you can put on a Glock.
The SCS-MOS is the slick one IMO.
I'm surprised I'm not hearing more about that one. It's my favorite pistol red dot out right now.
A range buddy has one and I'm not into pistol red dots yet but that one points well since it co-witnesses with stock height sights.
I fully agree that mounting issues and all the different footprints are a bit ridiculous...when I saw all of them, I thought "why not just machine a pic rail into the slide and have everything fit that?!?!"
Understandable though, design and manufacturing proprietary issues in the beginning endure.
No matter though. It's still more than doable. Seems like you cant go wrong with the RMR footprint for a solid open emitter type.
I'll say that cost was always the main thing keeping me out of this loop...I finally said eff it and bit the bullet, glad I did.
I'd always factored the cost of a case worth of ammo/components to get up to speed, but was delighted to realize that a few hundred rounds in, I was confident and capable with it.
No expert here, just a mediocre shooter, as anyone can see looking at my DOTW entries over on P-F, so if I can get there, anyone can.
The pic rail is basically the 509T.
The different mounting arrangements are bizarre to me because Tasco and Docter Optic were making mini red dots by at least the late 1990's and(if memory is correct) were using the same mount pattern.
Diamondback
10-25-22, 23:25
I fully agree that mounting issues and all the different footprints are a bit ridiculous...when I saw all of them, I thought "why not just machine a pic rail into the slide and have everything fit that?!?!"
Understandable though, design and manufacturing proprietary issues in the beginning endure.
No matter though. It's still more than doable. Seems like you cant go wrong with the RMR footprint for a solid open emitter type.
I'll say that cost was always the main thing keeping me out of this loop...I finally said eff it and bit the bullet, glad I did.
I'd always factored the cost of a case worth of ammo/components to get up to speed, but was delighted to realize that a few hundred rounds in, I was confident and capable with it.
No expert here, just a mediocre shooter, as anyone can see looking at my DOTW entries over on P-F, so if I can get there, anyone can.
This. Somebody like NSSF, SAAMI etc. (but who?) needs to Gibbs-slap the manufacturers until they set up an Industry Standards committee to hash it out once and for all.
I have said that a slide milled for a certain standard is where we are headed. I believe the best mounting approach is the AP ACRO. Glock is doing it and I have heard a few other people. I will wait for the Glock 45 MOS- 7. Hopefully they will release them to the public.
Cheers, Steve
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-26-22, 08:13
I have said that a slide milled for a certain standard is where we are headed. I believe the best mounting approach is the AP ACRO. Glock is doing it and I have heard a few other people. I will wait for the Glock 45 MOS- 7. Hopefully they will release them to the public.
Cheers, Steve
Totally agree. The MPS now shares the ACRO footprint. If more optic MFG would bite the bullet and mill for the same footprint, we'd easily reach an industry standard.
I have said that a slide milled for a certain standard is where we are headed.
This has to be. RDS popularity seems to be snowballing, and it only makes sense for this to happen.
The ACRO looks pretty high in pics. And large. Probably a good standard for a duty optic that don’t need to worry about size.
But plenty of us want less bulk on a carry gun.
I also think the “standardize” crew has a limited understanding of the design constraints involved here. A forced standard may stifle the next great idea, right as we see more movement into sealed designs and lower deck designs that work with standard height sights.
Sent HKVP9 slide out yesterday to be milled, etc. That will be my test bed pistol as it's now back up to my Wilson SFT9.
It is my understanding that the mos7 Glock allows regular sights at a 1/3 with the P2. I see the one screw attachment with an easy to switch battery compartment as a positive. When I started to pontificate on the common slide milling for one standard attachment, most folks told me it was never going to happen. It is happening.
Cheers, Steve
It is my understanding that the mos7 Glock allows regular sights at a 1/3 with the P2. I see the one screw attachment with an easy to switch battery compartment as a positive. When I started to pontificate on the common slide milling for one standard attachment, most folks told me it was never going to happen. It is happening.
Cheers, Steve
It will be no different then slides cut for sites and AR's with attachment points, you would not sell any pistols or ARs without them today, and the market will dictate/demand slides milled for a standardized RDS attachment. Whether it's next year or 5, is the only Q really.
I may not be 100% sold on RDS on pistols, but that's the reality of the trend in their soon to be universal acceptance.
Sent HKVP9 slide out yesterday to be milled, etc. That will be my test bed pistol as it's now back up to my Wilson SFT9.
I think that's the pistol Pappabear here just did. You will be happy. That gun didn't give us any grief. The other gun that seems to be problem free is the Staccato with a Trijicon SRO. That gun is a cream puff so it's hard to say if the SRO could hold up on a more "snappy", hard recoil pistol.
I think that's the pistol Pappabear here just did. You will be happy. That gun didn't give us any grief. The other gun that seems to be problem free is the Staccato with a Trijicon SRO. That gun is a cream puff so it's hard to say if the SRO could hold up on a more "snappy", hard recoil pistol.
The HKVP9 has been one of the most boringly reliable pistols I have owned.
Adrenaline_6
10-26-22, 13:23
The HKVP9 has been one of the most boringly reliable pistols I have owned.
I bought a VP9SK for my wife a few years back. I EDC it now since she passed in May. Yup...reliable...accurate...ergos are like my P30 (awesome)...and the natural pointability, for me anyway, is great. I am thinking of milling the slide myself.
The Primary Arms Vulcan reticle solves the problem of losing the dot (chevron) in unconventional shooting situations. Thinking of going that route.
The Primary Arms Vulcan reticle solves the problem of losing the dot (chevron) in unconventional shooting situations. Thinking of going that route.
I think the concept is good for your situation, and maybe people having a hard time transitioning to a dot.
I do have a concern that at speed it will distract more than help. You will get a flash from the outer ring as the gun comes back down from recoil, and you need to process that differently from the dot.
At really short range and high speed with a carbine it’s like I’m squeezing the trigger as soon as I see color on the target area, if that makes sense. It’s probably why bright front sights exist as well, with consistent recoil control your sights come back aligned well enough for close targets, when you see color on the target area, squeeze.
I don’t have any experience with pistol dots trying to go fast, or that Vulcan reticle at all, so my concern may not be valid. But I’m going to start with a 6moa dot if I can find one.
6 moa
https://vortexoptics.com/vortex-viper-6-moa-red-dot.html
The Holsuns also have 2moa dot, 32moa circle, and a circle dot. Cranking the intensity up will also make ti dot appear larger.
One thing where Trijicons are much better than Holosuns is the auto brightness feature. There is a definite lag time with Holosun brightness adapting to changing light conditions.
One thing where Trijicons are much better than Holosuns is the auto brightness feature.
I hadn't even thought about this or even realized it was a thing. I've shot the SRO quite a bit, but didn't know Trijicon had that feature. That would be pretty important for patrol who might be going in and out of various light levels.
Incorrect, it wouldn't overhang any more than any RMR footprint optic body already does, but the point is pic rail or something like it being the standard would have made things much simpler to begin with. Lack of foresight and wanting to keep things somewhat proprietary put us where we are.
I agree that a standard would have been better, but I do not think that any required overhang appropriate for that standard and I suppose this is why manufacturers did not default to the 1913 rail.
I think the concept is good for your situation, and maybe people having a hard time transitioning to a dot.
I do have a concern that at speed it will distract more than help. You will get a flash from the outer ring as the gun comes back down from recoil, and you need to process that differently from the dot.
At really short range and high speed with a carbine it’s like I’m squeezing the trigger as soon as I see color on the target area, if that makes sense. It’s probably why bright front sights exist as well, with consistent recoil control your sights come back aligned well enough for close targets, when you see color on the target area, squeeze.
I don’t have any experience with pistol dots trying to go fast, or that Vulcan reticle at all, so my concern may not be valid. But I’m going to start with a 6moa dot if I can find one.
Yeah, once you are comfortable, most of your shooting is based on streaks. I never used a reticle with more than a dot, but I cant imagine its good.
I dont think dot size really matters much outside of preference, but 6moa would be huge. I think my 3moa is too big. Bigger isnt faster or easier to pick up if the brightness is correct (which trijicons are in auto IMO).
6 moa
https://vortexoptics.com/vortex-viper-6-moa-red-dot.html
The Holsuns also have 2moa dot, 32moa circle, and a circle dot. Cranking the intensity up will also make ti dot appear larger.
One thing where Trijicons are much better than Holosuns is the auto brightness feature. There is a definite lag time with Holosun brightness adapting to changing light conditions.
There are Holosun RDSs that have 6 MOA dots, the EPS is one but not the only one.
As far as auto brightness, personally not a fan as the sensor is on the RDS and does not read the light situation of the target. If shooting at a bright target from shaded area, dot is liable to be very dim.
Medium brightness is very usefull and can be changed quickly in manual mode. The 507C2 allows a choice in dot brightness control, manual or auto. Auto shut off is nice as well.
Mark
I think the concept is good for your situation, and maybe people having a hard time transitioning to a dot.
I do have a concern that at speed it will distract more than help. You will get a flash from the outer ring as the gun comes back down from recoil, and you need to process that differently from the dot.
At really short range and high speed with a carbine it’s like I’m squeezing the trigger as soon as I see color on the target area, if that makes sense. It’s probably why bright front sights exist as well, with consistent recoil control your sights come back aligned well enough for close targets, when you see color on the target area, squeeze.
I don’t have any experience with pistol dots trying to go fast, or that Vulcan reticle at all, so my concern may not be valid. But I’m going to start with a 6moa dot if I can find one.
Yeah, once you are comfortable, most of your shooting is based on streaks. I never used a reticle with more than a dot, but I cant imagine its good.
I dont think dot size really matters much outside of preference, but 6moa would be huge. I think my 3moa is too big. Bigger isnt faster or easier to pick up if the brightness is correct (which trijicons are in auto IMO).
There’s an M/GM class shooter on P-F that has the same train of thought. I disagree, but I’m not at that level so it may just be me not knowing what I don’t know. I’m very confident in saying that I’m more precise with the chevron. I don’t know if my splits are slower vs a dot. I’d love to test that as I have the ACSS Vulcan on both of my RDS pistols so I’m all in at the moment, but those guns are co figured differently so it wouldn’t be an apples to apples comparison anyways.
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It’s not the chevron, it’s the outer ring under recoil I’m concerned about.
Do you see the ring under recoil? If yes do you think it’s far enough away from the center that it isn’t a distraction, or you aren’t trying to go fast enough to notice?
It’s not the chevron, it’s the outer ring under recoil I’m concerned about.
Do you see the ring under recoil? If yes do you think it’s far enough away from the center that it isn’t a distraction, or you aren’t trying to go fast enough to notice?
I picked up a 507C red dot with it. Mounted on my Ruger MK3, so I don’t think recoil will be a huge thing… but definitely want to see how that works out on my gun. Suppressor host with a 2” barrel, so the red dot is going to be the only sighting option, unless I decide to get a CT grip for it.
Good thing, if it is a distraction… there is an option to turn it off and just have the chevron.
There are Holosun RDSs that have 6 MOA dots, the EPS is one but not the only one.
As far as auto brightness, personally not a fan as the sensor is on the RDS and does not read the light situation of the target. If shooting at a bright target from shaded area, dot is liable to be very dim.
Medium brightness is very usefull and can be changed quickly in manual mode. The 507C2 allows a choice in dot brightness control, manual or auto. Auto shut off is nice as well.
Mark
Now that I search, I see a few Holosun 6 moa.
I tend to stick to the leave it on a workable brightness setting also.
I haven't played with an MRO alot, but moving room to room in my buddies house it seemed to adjust to conditions in front of me to a degree(although I am sure there are limits) and it is quick.
The Holosuns(508, 509, 515 I have used) are 100% whatever light conditions the housing is directly under is what the dot adjusts to and even then there is a lag time between me noticing the ambient light change and the dot adjusting.
It’s not the chevron, it’s the outer ring under recoil I’m concerned about.
Do you see the ring under recoil? If yes do you think it’s far enough away from the center that it isn’t a distraction, or you aren’t trying to go fast enough to notice?
A guy at the range got one around the time I got a 508 and I can see how it would help acclimate someone to a dot. As others have said, you can turn the ring off and the chevron is a nice combo of coarse fast aiming point and fine aiming point.
It’s not the chevron, it’s the outer ring under recoil I’m concerned about.
Do you see the ring under recoil? If yes do you think it’s far enough away from the center that it isn’t a distraction, or you aren’t trying to go fast enough to notice?
If you are shooting properly you don't see or notice the large ring under recoil, you just have the chevron jump up to the top of the window and back down; but if you are shooting an odd position, one handed, etc the circle will get you back.
There is zero risk in confusing the two. And as mentioned you can turn it off if you want.
Defaultmp3
10-27-22, 18:36
If you are shooting properly you don't see or notice the large ring under recoil, you just have the chevron jump up to the top of the window and back down; but if you are shooting an odd position, one handed, etc the circle will get you back.
There is zero risk in confusing the two. And as mentioned you can turn it off if you want.I've not used the ring, but I'm curious as to how you came to conclusion that there's zero risk in confusing the two. As noted, many folks will shoot with just the flash of the red in the optic, so needing to discern between the outer circle and the chevron can be a detriment, as one now needs to slow down to figure out if it's the outer circle or the chevron that one caught a flash of. I can see this being particularly noticeable an issue in wide transitions and during or after movement against wide open targets. I would suspect this is largely a gaming issue, rather than a duty/self-defense issue, due to the differing standards in shot accountability, but it would still be a non-zero risk.
As far as auto brightness, personally not a fan as the sensor is on the RDS and does not read the light situation of the target. If shooting at a bright target from shaded area, dot is liable to be very dim.
Isn't there a Holosun that uses both ambient and target illumination to set reticle brightness? The SCS maybe?
titsonritz
10-27-22, 19:58
Isn't there a Holosun that uses both ambient and target illumination to set reticle brightness? The SCS maybe?
Yep, that's the one. I hate auto adjust but I want to check this one out to see if is as good as they say.
It’s not the chevron, it’s the outer ring under recoil I’m concerned about.
Do you see the ring under recoil? If yes do you think it’s far enough away from the center that it isn’t a distraction, or you aren’t trying to go fast enough to notice?
Not that I know of. But to be fair, I don’t really notice anything when I’m shooting reasonably fast. I can do it and still get hits on target but couldn’t tell you what I’m seeing in the reticle if I’m pushing it.
I need to spend a lot of time really finding a better balance as most matches I’ve shot have targets riddled with As and Cs.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Not that I know of. But to be fair, I don’t really notice anything when I’m shooting reasonably fast. I can do it and still get hits on target but couldn’t tell you what I’m seeing in the reticle if I’m pushing it.
I need to spend a lot of time really finding a better balance as most matches I’ve shot have targets riddled with As and Cs.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Doubles drill will help you learn predictability of dot movement to shot placement. It will also teach you to see the dot shooting at speed. Also try to track which shot goes where. Are the As your first shot? Are nearly all the Cs low or high?
I've not used the ring, but I'm curious as to how you came to conclusion that there's zero risk in confusing the two. As noted, many folks will shoot with just the flash of the red in the optic, so needing to discern between the outer circle and the chevron can be a detriment, as one now needs to slow down to figure out if it's the outer circle or the chevron that one caught a flash of. I can see this being particularly noticeable an issue in wide transitions and during or after movement against wide open targets. I would suspect this is largely a gaming issue, rather than a duty/self-defense issue, due to the differing standards in shot accountability, but it would still be a non-zero risk.
Several thousands of rounds shooting it and the point that a large portion of a circle is completely different than a ^
If you are shooting with just the flash of red, you're doing it wrong IMO.
Doubles drill will help you learn predictability of dot movement to shot placement. It will also teach you to see the dot shooting at speed. Also try to track which shot goes where. Are the As your first shot? Are nearly all the Cs low or high?
As are always the first shot. Cs tend to be low.
I’ve had more than one very experienced instructor tell me they don’t remember ever seeing their reticle when shooting fast.
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Defaultmp3
10-28-22, 17:05
If you are shooting with just the flash of red, you're doing it wrong IMO.Why is that? It's a very normal way to shoot a slide mounted RDS in competition. I wouldn't do it in a civilian duty/self-defense context probably given the issues of liability, but I could also see this being used in certain military contexts. With as small as the windows are and as close as most pistol targets are, parallax is going to play a minimal role, so as long as the center dot is visible on target, you will easily be able to get an A-zone hit out to at least 10 yards.
so as long as the center dot is visible on target
I would call that alignment and not "with just the flash of the red in the optic." Perhaps the apparent disagreement is merely semantics?
Defaultmp3
10-28-22, 19:45
I would call that alignment and not "with just the flash of the red in the optic." Perhaps the apparent disagreement is merely semantics?That convergence of definitions only works if you have a smaller reticle, such as a single dot or the 32 MOA ring (the latter obviously giving you less alignment based off of a flash); once you have an extremely large ring like the ACSS Vulcan, that flash of red is no longer indicative of your sights being aligned, and now you have to spend more time confirming that the flash of red you saw was in fact the dot and not the ring. Therein lies the crux of the problem.
This was the observation that one GM made over at PF after playing with one, and to me it certainly makes sense given my experiences with slide-mounted RDSes, even if I haven't tried the Vulcan ACSS. The way that the proponents try to dismiss this theory aren't very compelling to me, though again I'll stress that I think it's largely an edge case for most folks' uses and skill levels. One might make an argument that one can figure out if it's the ring or the chevron being seen based off of kinesthetics, but that still doubles the amount of decisions one has to make in order to break the shot.
I am also a bit curious about how well the chevron actually works, given how the triangle also briefed well for the DPP (same concept of using the tip for precise aiming, and just the whole thing for gross aiming), yet no one that I know actually prefers the triangle over the dot after using both, though the dislike of the triangle was also much more vocal IMO, so maybe the chevron's more minimalistic appearance works better.
FWIW, for me, the use of the visible laser is my first go-to index when I lose the dot, and irons are second. The only times I really end up hunting for the dot without immediately transitioning to another index is under NODs. I'm curious as to just how much easier the use of that larger ring to find the dot really would be compared to using a laser and/or irons.
Why is that? It's a very normal way to shoot a slide mounted RDS in competition. I wouldn't do it in a civilian duty/self-defense context probably given the issues of liability, but I could also see this being used in certain military contexts. With as small as the windows are and as close as most pistol targets are, parallax is going to play a minimal role, so as long as the center dot is visible on target, you will easily be able to get an A-zone hit out to at least 10 yards.
As long as the dot is center on target vs 'flash of red'.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2F3oz8xv49pVlbdYd14c%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=31c3e54e52bb6fa1275087b64cd0c4d79a8d6a60e4dd2edfd4f5c54a5e60d463&ipo=images
LMFAO, if you are telling me the 'flash of red' is now 'the dot centered on target', you can tell between the ^ and the large circle.
Not to mention (again) under normal recoil, you never see the large circle.
'Flash of red', LOLz.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bronco6g.com%2Fforum%2Fattachments%2Ftenor-gif.51447%2F&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=6c9e8a4c30203521d83866fcf102ed867aeb3210e3b1f33eee5cca764b61e633&ipo=images
FWIW, for me, the use of the visible laser is my first go-to index when I lose the dot, and irons are second.
Visible laser?
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tenor.co%2Fimages%2F03a73afb6523f7e3536afbca880a7711%2Fraw&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=8d45febd36b283e652321fad178a924c6b2788e9fedde2b782e2acf11ea47015&ipo=images
Really?
Yeah, you are doing it wrong.
Defaultmp3
10-28-22, 22:18
As long as the dot is center on target vs 'flash of red'.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2F3oz8xv49pVlbdYd14c%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=31c3e54e52bb6fa1275087b64cd0c4d79a8d6a60e4dd2edfd4f5c54a5e60d463&ipo=images
LMFAO, if you are telling me the 'flash of red' is now 'the dot centered on target', you can tell between the ^ and the large circle.
Not to mention (again) under normal recoil, you never see the large circle.
'Flash of red', LOLz.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bronco6g.com%2Fforum%2Fattachments%2Ftenor-gif.51447%2F&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=6c9e8a4c30203521d83866fcf102ed867aeb3210e3b1f33eee5cca764b61e633&ipo=imagesMmm, you've misread what I've written. I was talking about the "center dot is visible on target", not that "the dot centered on target", very big difference, as the (center) dot can be anywhere in the window (I was using that term to differentiate from just, say, the 32 MOA ring being visible without the center dot being visible), so long as it is on the target itself, and provide a solid hit at most pistol distances. As a demo (not my picture, super gross on the Suarez back plate, but the original poster was trying to convey the same idea):
https://i.imgur.com/Hfl3ytg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wwhReXs.jpg
Both of those sight pictures would give you a hit in essentially the same place for something 10 or 15 yards in (particularly for gaming standards), and I would consider both sight pictures to be aligned, hence why a flash of red is sufficient to pull the trigger. Also, again, I'm not really thinking too much about recoil, but for large transitions and trying to pick up the dot after movement (or even just SotM), where you have broken your original sight picture and are now have to bring it up on target again. This issue is also why window size does actually matter, as the bigger the window, the more room you have to find that dot (thus allowing a sloppier draw that's faster or picking up the dot faster during a transition), and thus the faster you have definitive feedback about where you'll be hitting.
Visible laser?
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tenor.co%2Fimages%2F03a73afb6523f7e3536afbca880a7711%2Fraw&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=8d45febd36b283e652321fad178a924c6b2788e9fedde2b782e2acf11ea47015&ipo=images
Really?
Yeah, you are doing it wrong.No one that has actually watched me shoot thinks that I'm doing it wrong, besides the fact that I've been stubbornly Timmy about my whole competition set-up in general (open class using my CCW with a slide-mounted RDS, **** yeah). I've been using visible lasers to augment my sight picture on pistols basically since the very beginning, thanks to a steal of a deal on an X400 that I picked up before I even bought my first handgun. I've been to multiple pistol classes with very reputable instructors, none of them has found any issue with how I've been utilizing my laser, nor has it been seen as a weakness in all the USPSA I've been shooting (outside of constantly being questioned if it's legal for use in open). I'm not the greatest of pistol shooters (a high C-class in USPSA right now, low B class in Steel Challenge), but I regularly get >60% of the top shooters in my local USPSA matches, which has a number of GMs, including the current IPSC classic world champ, and scored >55% at my last level 2 match, which I think is pretty damn good considering I literally just use the matches as the entirety of my handgun practice. The visible laser for me gives me a back-up sighting system, and is also great way to get gross shots on target with more precision than just raw slide index while having more speed than bringing the gun up all the way to use the RDS or irons.
I honestly think people sleep on visible lasers for handguns, just because too many idiots use them (poorly). I think they're an excellent, albeit niche, tool, provided the switchology can be worked out; for me, I use the X400UH-GNs with the DG switch, so there's no fumbling around with switching, and activation is quite easy, as is deactivation (though the latter does take more practice to be deliberate in one's light usage).
https://i.imgur.com/Hfl3ytg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wwhReXs.jpg
Both of those sight pictures would give you a hit in essentially the same place for something 10 or 15 yards in (particularly for gaming standards), and I would consider both sight pictures to be aligned, hence why a flash of red is sufficient to pull the trigger.
I don't understand this "flash of red" you keep referencing. If the dot were in on the left edge of the window in the first image, or on the right half of the window the second, a shot would constitute a miss. Surely then this "flash of red" cannot be the dot visible anywhere within the window, but must instead be normal placement of the dot within the target? How is that unusual?
Defaultmp3
10-28-22, 23:30
I don't understand this "flash of red" you keep referencing. If the dot were in on the left edge of the window in the first image, or on the right half of the window the second, a shot would constitute a miss. Surely then this "flash of red" cannot be the dot visible anywhere within the window, but must instead be normal placement of the dot within the target? How is that unusual?This has to be done with a properly-sized target, so the head shot target is not the greatest choice, but for something like an A-zone, you have a decent amount of leeway; the camera also doesn't help in this case, making the target and window size relationship pretty different from a full presentation, but trying to line up the camera behind an RDS one handed I imagine is quite annoying. For example, using my ACRO P-2, moving the dot from left edge of the window to the right edge of the window will give me about a 5" horizontal bracket at 7 yards, which is more than sufficient to make an A-zone hit on a USPSA target. Throw in kinesthetics that come into play to line up the gun more while the body is reacting to the visual stimuli to make the decision to pull the trigger, along with balancing how much of the dot is off due to your gun being aimed off the particular point you want to hit versus just being an issue of your head not being perfectly positioned, and you can push that distance out further. Beyond that, remember that in USPSA there is a balance of speed and accuracy that many here would probably think is way too speed oriented and not enough accuracy. A guy shooting major may very well prefer to take that quick C (which is almost 12" in width) to a slower A. Something like Smoke & Hope in Steel Challenge has 18"×24" targets as close as 7 yards.
I'll reiterate, this is largely either a gaming concern or else some OCONUS stuff where you're not worried about liability, given the speed that is being asked for, but that still represent legitimate concerns. If the original statement was that the ACSS Vulcan's outer ring poses minimal issues for most folk's use, I'd have no issues, but the blanket statement of no issue at all I tend to question, though I am open to being wrong, as it doesn't really matter to me personally one way or the other, I definitely overconfirm my dot.
Up close and hosing, I’m target focused, looking for color on my target area. I’m not following my dot around waiting for it to settle.
Maybe the ring is big enough to not actually be a problem, I haven’t used one to know.
Does anyone who teaches actually use or recommend the ACSS? Or the 32MOA ring reticle?
The amount of reverse engineering here is hilarious.
Yes, of course you take 'deviations' with the reticle up close. RDS 101. Do you really need sights <7 to make hits? I hope not.
"Flash of Red". Mmmmkay.
Enjoy your Saturday trying to convince yourself.
Up close and hosing, I’m target focused, looking for color on my target area. I’m not following my dot around waiting for it to settle.
Maybe the ring is big enough to not actually be a problem, I haven’t used one to know.
Does anyone who teaches actually use or recommend the ACSS? Or the 32MOA ring reticle?
Eh. Most of them say it can help at first but it’ll be detriment after you have a base level of practice. This is where I take issue, because almost none of them can articulate why it’d be a detriment. After many back and forths on P-F, the above argument of it essentially being a distraction came out. I don’t know whether or not I agree with it but I at least understand that premise which is better than all of the rest of the dissenting opinions.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Adrenaline_6
10-29-22, 10:02
That convergence of definitions only works if you have a smaller reticle, such as a single dot or the 32 MOA ring (the latter obviously giving you less alignment based off of a flash); once you have an extremely large ring like the ACSS Vulcan, that flash of red is no longer indicative of your sights being aligned, and now you have to spend more time confirming that the flash of red you saw was in fact the dot and not the ring. Therein lies the crux of the problem.
This was the observation that one GM made over at PF after playing with one, and to me it certainly makes sense given my experiences with slide-mounted RDSes, even if I haven't tried the Vulcan ACSS. The way that the proponents try to dismiss this theory aren't very compelling to me, though again I'll stress that I think it's largely an edge case for most folks' uses and skill levels. One might make an argument that one can figure out if it's the ring or the chevron being seen based off of kinesthetics, but that still doubles the amount of decisions one has to make in order to break the shot.
I am also a bit curious about how well the chevron actually works, given how the triangle also briefed well for the DPP (same concept of using the tip for precise aiming, and just the whole thing for gross aiming), yet no one that I know actually prefers the triangle over the dot after using both, though the dislike of the triangle was also much more vocal IMO, so maybe the chevron's more minimalistic appearance works better.
FWIW, for me, the use of the visible laser is my first go-to index when I lose the dot, and irons are second. The only times I really end up hunting for the dot without immediately transitioning to another index is under NODs. I'm curious as to just how much easier the use of that larger ring to find the dot really would be compared to using a laser and/or irons.
The real problem with your argument is that the reticle that was being discussed was the Vulcan ACSS. It has a 10 moa chevron and the circle that guides you in unconventional stances is 250 moa. You are not confusing the 2.
Up close and hosing, I’m target focused, looking for color on my target area. I’m not following my dot around waiting for it to settle.
Maybe the ring is big enough to not actually be a problem, I haven’t used one to know.
Does anyone who teaches actually use or recommend the ACSS? Or the 32MOA ring reticle?
Cowan recommends the ACSS.
https://youtu.be/59n8w3PLxPU
I think he just sticks to the dot on the circle dot models.
…the circle that guides you in unconventional stances is 250 moa. You are not confusing the 2.
There seems to be more talk of the ring not being used in normal shooting or that you can turn it off, than of how useful it is. The feature seems very limited at best, slower shots from odd shooting positions, or beginners who don’t have any index built.
But if I can’t see the dot during normal shooting, don’t I want to go straight to irons? I don’t feel like looking for part of the ring, then deciding what direction I’m off sounds fast. Even worse I might not have seen the dot because the optic died, and now I’m looking for a ring that doesn’t exist.
There seems to be more talk of the ring not being used in normal shooting or that you can turn it off, than of how useful it is. The feature seems very limited at best, slower shots from odd shooting positions, or beginners who don’t have any index built.
But if I can’t see the dot during normal shooting, don’t I want to go straight to irons? I don’t feel like looking for part of the ring, then deciding what direction I’m off sounds fast. Even worse I might not have seen the dot because the optic died, and now I’m looking for a ring that doesn’t exist.
You don’t look for part of the ring. It’s either not there because you have good alignment and can see the chevron or you see part of the ring because you’re off and have to push the muzzle in the direction of that part of the ring. It’s super intuitive.
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Adrenaline_6
10-29-22, 11:24
There seems to be more talk of the ring not being used in normal shooting or that you can turn it off, than of how useful it is. The feature seems very limited at best, slower shots from odd shooting positions, or beginners who don’t have any index built.
But if I can’t see the dot during normal shooting, don’t I want to go straight to irons? I don’t feel like looking for part of the ring, then deciding what direction I’m off sounds fast. Even worse I might not have seen the dot because the optic died, and now I’m looking for a ring that doesn’t exist.
Your not looking for the ring. If your off, you already see the ring. It puts you back in the middle if your off.
A dead optic that has been proven is less likely to happen in a shoot situation then having to take an unconventional stance that prevents your muscle memory from bringing your dot on target. Think about it.
Also, If the dot does die, which reticle would help you realize that problem quicker?
That convergence of definitions only works if you have a smaller reticle, such as a single dot or the 32 MOA ring (the latter obviously giving you less alignment based off of a flash); once you have an extremely large ring like the ACSS Vulcan, that flash of red is no longer indicative of your sights being aligned, and now you have to spend more time confirming that the flash of red you saw was in fact the dot and not the ring. Therein lies the crux of the problem.
This was the observation that one GM made over at PF after playing with one, and to me it certainly makes sense given my experiences with slide-mounted RDSes, even if I haven't tried the Vulcan ACSS. The way that the proponents try to dismiss this theory aren't very compelling to me, though again I'll stress that I think it's largely an edge case for most folks' uses and skill levels. One might make an argument that one can figure out if it's the ring or the chevron being seen based off of kinesthetics, but that still doubles the amount of decisions one has to make in order to break the shot.
I am also a bit curious about how well the chevron actually works, given how the triangle also briefed well for the DPP (same concept of using the tip for precise aiming, and just the whole thing for gross aiming), yet no one that I know actually prefers the triangle over the dot after using both, though the dislike of the triangle was also much more vocal IMO, so maybe the chevron's more minimalistic appearance works better.
FWIW, for me, the use of the visible laser is my first go-to index when I lose the dot, and irons are second. The only times I really end up hunting for the dot without immediately transitioning to another index is under NODs. I'm curious as to just how much easier the use of that larger ring to find the dot really would be compared to using a laser and/or irons.
The only way you're going to find out is to try the ACSS reticle for yourself.
I to would prefer a Vulcan ACSS with a dot instead of a chevron
The amount of reverse engineering here is hilarious.
Yes, of course you take 'deviations' with the reticle up close. RDS 101. Do you really need sights <7 to make hits? I hope not.
"Flash of Red". Mmmmkay.
Enjoy your Saturday trying to convince yourself.
streak" is a better term than "flash of red".
During transitions and strings of fire, im shooting based on where the streak is moving to and making the decision to fire before the dot hits the azone to achieve a zone hits.
The only time i see a stable dot is more difficult shots with higher consequences: partials, headshots, etc at distance.
As are always the first shot. Cs tend to be low.
I’ve had more than one very experienced instructor tell me they don’t remember ever seeing their reticle when shooting fast.
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Sounds like you are over-driving the gun, or shooting too late if youre seeing the dot.
I track/use the dot 100% of the time, even if just for confirmation... even down to .14/.15 splits.
The ACRO looks pretty high in pics. And large. Probably a good standard for a duty optic that don’t need to worry about size.
But plenty of us want less bulk on a carry gun.
I was wrong about the first part, I must have seen one on an adapter plate and not direct milled.
Still think it’s too big for carry.
Still think it’s too big for carry.
That's the whole thing with the pistol RDS.. the bigger the better for shooting, but for carrying the smaller the better.
I'd probably err on the side of large, because picking up the dot on a tiny sight is nerve racking just on the range.
I to would prefer a Vulcan ACSS with a dot instead of a chevron
I tend to agree. I've been running the ACSS Vulcan reticle on my Glock19 for quite a while now, and love it, especially in unconventional positions. I think it's also great for shooters new to running red dots, as it helps with the transition and getting used to picking up the dot.
That being said, i also wish they made a model with a dot instead of the chevron. I get that different parts of the chevron can be used at different ranges, but i've shot a 10" steel plate out to 100 yards multiple times, but still found myself only focusing on the tip of the chevron. I also wish Trijicon and others would implement the Vulcan ACSS reticle
ViniVidivici
11-02-22, 21:52
That's the whole thing with the pistol RDS.. the bigger the better for shooting, but for carrying the smaller the better.
I'd probably err on the side of large, because picking up the dot on a tiny sight is nerve racking just on the range.
I conceal one every day, G19 build, w/ Swampfox Justice. Just the right size, no problems at all, concealing, OR acquiring sight picture and shooting.
I conceal one every day, G19 build, w/ Swampfox Justice. Just the right size, no problems at all, concealing, OR acquiring sight picture and shooting.
Yup. I’ve used the same Roland Special/comp’d 19 with X300U and RDS as my primary since 2016 I think. Carried it heavily since late 2018 when I left Hawaii. Recently switched to a 507 ACSS Vulcan but that’s it. Carried it tons including for many hours on cross country drives. Main training and competition gun too. Used it in a 5k run n gun. Etc.
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I conceal one every day, G19 build, w/ Swampfox Justice. Just the right size, no problems at all, concealing, OR acquiring sight picture and shooting.
I'll have to look up that model.
(Christ! There's a lot of sights out there I've never heard of.)
ViniVidivici
11-03-22, 13:43
Indeed.
It's mentioned in Cowan's white paper. He beat the crap out of one and it kept ticking, long after several models of Vortex and Burris did not. Sold me.
Due to peer pressure here, I have joined the cool kids club. Current status, just returned, milled and fitted the right way onto VP9. Only dry fire so far, but I like the open circle of the three options (dot, circle + dot, circle) as target acquisition is fast, eye does not search for the dot, and while it will be less useful to longer shots and accuracy, fastest for SD/HD distances and such. Range time needed of course. The VP9 is now primary back up, test gun, general purpose HD, battle belt, etc pistol, Wilson is primary CCW. At some point, may send the Wilson off for similar, but need to be damn sure that's what I want before I start having a 3k+ pistol cut into.
https://i.imgur.com/AQGfkcm.jpg
Looks good.
You’ll likely become a RD devotee on handguns.
What sold me was the “single focal plane” with ability to be threat/target focused and superimpose Dot. The precision offered by RD didn’t hurt either.
Looks good.
You’ll likely become a RD devotee on handguns.
What sold me was the “single focal plane” with ability to be threat/target focused and superimpose Dot. The precision offered by RD didn’t hurt either.
Biggest complaint for many is the training time and effort to do that vs hunting for the dot. I do like the open circle on the 507 as I find my eye is on the target quickly with circle superimposed on the target. So far, I like it most over dot or dot in circle. Maybe that will change over time.
Due to peer pressure here, I have joined the cool kids club. Current status, just returned, milled and fitted the right way onto VP9. Only dry fire so far, but I like the open circle of the three options (dot, circle + dot, circle) as target acquisition is fast, eye does not search for the dot, and while it will be less useful to longer shots and accuracy, fastest for SD/HD distances and such.
Congrats Will on taking the plunge! I think you'll see the benefits quickly. I've also used all the different dot options, and have grown to prefer the open circle option on my daily carry gun. And to be fair, you can still make accurate shots at distance with the open circle. About a month ago, I did a little test with that reticle to see how far i could make first round hits with my P365XL on a 10" circular steel plate. I started at 40 yards, and moved back 10 yards each time. I was able to make a first round hit at 40, 50, 60, and 70 yards. 80, 90, and 100 yards each took a few shots to connect, but the open circle was still very accurate, and almost gives better aiming points at those longer ranges.
Congrats Will on taking the plunge! I think you'll see the benefits quickly. I've also used all the different dot options, and have grown to prefer the open circle option on my daily carry gun. And to be fair, you can still make accurate shots at distance with the open circle. About a month ago, I did a little test with that reticle to see how far i could make first round hits with my P365XL on a 10" circular steel plate. I started at 40 yards, and moved back 10 yards each time. I was able to make a first round hit at 40, 50, 60, and 70 yards. 80, 90, and 100 yards each took a few shots to connect, but the open circle was still very accurate, and almost gives better aiming points at those longer ranges.
I'm all in for that, but just as interested as to what it does for split times on target, and I get the sense that at SD/HD distances, the open circle may result in best split times between shots with "good enough for gubment work" accuracy on target. It would be a great option if you could choose different circle sizes too I suspect.
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