View Full Version : OIF/OEF Veterans. Technical Lessons Learned wanted
huntgrouse
12-22-08, 01:13
ALCON,
I work for CALL (Center for Army Lessons Learned)
I am looking for any lessons learned, tips, insight etc on the M4/M16 as used in combat in Afghanistan or Iraq. I want first hand info from you guys who have used them in combat.
SEND TO MY AKO listed below.
DO NOT SEND ANYTHING BUT WHAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED UNCLASS or OPEN SOURCE.
DO NOT VIOLATE OPSEC.
Examples;
Any experience with PMAG’s in combat, how they hold up, how they function., how they compare to issue mags
Slings: what works best and why for in MRAP, M1151, M114, SUV’s, for dismounted,
Sights; what BUIS works best. Any issues with durability, holding zero, falling off the weapon
ACOG: pros cons, issues. Holding zero. Engaging targets at log range
CCO: Comp M2 or Comp M4 same questions as with ACOG
After market personally purchased gear: what works, what doesn’t
What works for maintenance that isn’t being taught.
Training ?
Same basic questions for M9.
Anything you want to tell me about the weapons , send it.
Weapons training: what was good, what was not included that should have been, what should be eliminated.
I am looking at collecting on what guys in the field have experienced. I have my own experiences but one mans does not a consensus make. I need to hear it from the grunts , the SECFOR, the PSD’s.
If in doubt, send it anyway.
Your input is appreciated.
Email your responses to PM for AKO
I would appreciate it if you included your rank, position, time frame in country, years of service and basic location. I will not attribute last names if you request.
The info is what’s important. Your info may be used for follow up questions or details.
If yoU have specific questions about this post, email me and I will respond.
UNCLASS or OPEN SOURCE only
DO NOT VIOLATE OPSEC.
telecustom
12-22-08, 11:47
Email sent to AKO.
Sir,
I see where you are going with this. Please edit your post to direct information directly to the CALL website and/or to your AKO. This is an open form. Thank you.
USMC Tanker
12-22-08, 12:03
Cleared for "OPSEC"
uscbigdawg
12-22-08, 20:06
Rule # 1 in Afghanistan: "Don't trust a fart."
After that, everything is pretty common sense. Regular Army carries too much crap on their person for a mission (SOP's change when you go outside the wire thank goodness). M-4's run if you keep them clean and use good mags. Come home in one piece and you win.
That's it.
Rich
Closed:
I will tack this thread for a few weeks.
Dude, don't take the wrong way, but take a breath. Of the questions you asked I can't imagine anything that would violate OPSEC. Most any SM in a bar will tell you EXACTLY what he thinks about this war, and all M4 technical data is open source.
Personally, I think for the good of the cause we should post our observations here. I am sure others have the same questions.
Anyway, I will take a crack at a few of these:
Single point slings are popular. Really, I think few things are better than plain old 1" Tubular Nylon.
The MATECH BUIS is fine. SOCOM uses the ARMS #40P. The Army has several ACOG's in service. They all work great. As near as I can tell, they are much preferred over all of the Elcan scopes to include the much hyped Elcan SpecterDR. If you are issued the M145 MGO take care to inspect the mount/zero adjustment.
The new CCO's are awesome. If battery life is a concern then go with the Aimpoint. The EOTech 552 is available in the system. None of these will give you problems.
PEO Soldier has a program to evaluate gear: https://peosoldier.army.mil/faqs.asp#Q75
It is a good program. When in doubt, look for the PEO Soldier seal of approval. It will save a lot of troops some hard earned money.
The M4 needs a lot of lube, not a thin coat but dripping wet with CLP. Militec works well too. Personally, I like thick sludge of CLP, Militec, and carbon. It sort of looks like black LSA after a few days. Just keep a 1oz bottle of CLP with you at all times. If you bolt looks dry, dirty or dusty just apply more CLP. At some point you may actually want to clean it.
The M9 needs lube too. Many people don't actually know that.
Training? How about Course: 9E-F23/920-F13 (MTT-A/G) - SHORT RANGE MARKSMANSHIP (GWOT). It is in ATRRS and is only one week. You could do worse. I would also recommend getting current in CLC (or TCCC) and take Level 1 Combatives. Also make sure you know how to use every piece of equipment on your vehicle. You never know when you may be called to run the radio/DAGR or the 50cal/Mk19.
huntgrouse
12-23-08, 01:35
Dude, don't take the wrong way, but take a breath. Of the questions you asked I can't imagine anything that would violate OPSEC. Most any SM in a bar will tell you EXACTLY what he thinks about this war, and all M4 technical data is open source.
Personally, I think for the good of the cause we should post our observations here. I am sure others have the same questions.
Anyway, I will take a crack at a few of these:
Single point slings are popular. Really, I think few things are better than plain old 1" Tubular Nylon.
The MATECH BUIS is fine. SOCOM uses the ARMS #40P. The Army has several ACOG's in service. They all work great. As near as I can tell, they are much preferred over all of the Elcan scopes to include the much hyped Elcan SpecterDR. If you are issued the M145 MGO take care to inspect the mount/zero adjustment.
The new CCO's are awesome. If battery life is a concern then go with the Aimpoint. The EOTech 552 is available in the system. None of these will give you problems.
PEO Soldier has a program to evaluate gear: https://peosoldier.army.mil/faqs.asp#Q75
It is a good program. When in doubt, look for the PEO Soldier seal of approval. It will save a lot of troops some hard earned money.
The M4 needs a lot of lube, not a thin coat but dripping wet with CLP. Militec works well too. Personally, I like thick sludge of CLP, Militec, and carbon. It sort of looks like black LSA after a few days. Just keep a 1oz bottle of CLP with you at all times. If you bolt looks dry, dirty or dusty just apply more CLP. At some point you may actually want to clean it.
The M9 needs lube too. Many people don't actually know that.
Training? How about Course: 9E-F23/920-F13 (MTT-A/G) - SHORT RANGE MARKSMANSHIP (GWOT). It is in ATRRS and is only one week. You could do worse. I would also recommend getting current in CLC (or TCCC) and take Level 1 Combatives. Also make sure you know how to use every piece of equipment on your vehicle. You never know when you may be called to run the radio/DAGR or the 50cal/Mk19.
Look, it isnt me getting all worked up over "OPSEC". I have gotten a few emails and added the caveat in order to keep the worry warts at bay. Yes I know this is all open source and all I am doing is gathering it up. This will be rolled into a report for the Army when I get enough info.
Thanks for your input. I will add it to the other reports I have recieved. Amen on the M( lube. I have watched too many M9's choke because they were dry.
TangoChaser
12-23-08, 05:26
There is no magic cure for keeping an M4 or A2 clean in that environment. Keep the moving parts clean and lubed well. A simple wiping down of the bolt carrier assembly, the inside of the upper receiver and the barrel extension lugs is all it takes to keep the gun running. Dothis repeatedly as time permits.
There is no such thing as no time to do this 2 minute drill.
My introduction to gun boards, was a result of me trying to find better ways to do my job. And it turned out to be very helpful.
I'll put together a more comprehensive e-mail together. It should be very interesting to compile this data and see the common denominators. I'll try to keep my contribution to what I would see as feasible and practical. I would also like to note I've been out of the Army for almost 3 years now, so some of my input could be moot point or such programs may exist without my knowledge.
A couple things,
"Check the box" training is the wrong answer. I read an article in the Army Times, about new philosphies regarding training. Of course there has to be some guidelines. But I'd like see more "train the trainer" programs producing greater expertise and see civilian resources encorporated and raise the bar on Soldiering skills. Personally, I think the FM's are a good starting point and obviously neccessary but there's alot more out there. Especially considering we want to produce professional gunfighters.
I think AAR's are a great tool. I'd like to see a Lessons Learned computerized data base, which leaders can draw on. As an analogy, If you got only a couple senior NCO's talking shop, you have alot of years experience and knowledge. I think it would be very beneficial to make categorized and specific AAR's available to other units. The format would have to be in a detailed written format. The program could deminish different units making similar mistakes.
Good luck with the program
RogerinTPA
01-03-09, 08:33
Seems like these issues are the same since the first Gulf War. The Army should have had butt loads of AARs from that one. Since the Gubment is spending so much these days, how bout spending some cash on OEM mags for the M9s to address all the mag issues. I'm sure they'll get a bulk discount. Also, a better Maintenance inspection criteria at the company, BN and BDE level to replace and repair parts before they become an issue. Seems it always comes down to Money and Determination. People always seek the path of least resistance, including our leaders. Doing nothing or providing the lowest cost item, doesn't ensure we have the best/reliable weapons/equipment in the field. Pull the Bean Counters out of the equation. Get the material and equipment survey guys back into the field and asks the trigger pullers what works. Have permanent survey teams at every Fort, Camp, Airbase to get to those units rotating back to the US.
Gulf War Vet.
Have permanent survey teams at every Fort, Camp, Airbase to get to those teams rotating back to the US.
Agreed, and I will gladly e-mail my thoughts from my experiences.
huntgrouse, thanks for the PM. Honestly, the Army is full of know-nothings who fancy themselves as would-be COIN operators. I pay them no mind.
Almost everything there is to say is well known on the internet or in the popular gun press.
The funny thing about weapon mods is that nearly all of the popular ones violate AR 738-750. Army inertia, particularly in the Ordnance Branch, is very bad. PEO Soldier does a pretty good job. At least they have sort of a suggestion box on their site.
Anyway a few more thoughts:
As to training, TRADOC is nearly impenetrable. 'Warrior Ethos' is little more than a buzzword. For this concept to mean anything outside of the Combat Arms community, the Army (as an organizations) needs to develop a true warrior culture. I believe that fully 75% of the Army would be perfectly at home working at the DMV or some other low speed high drag civil service job. The organization needs to be considerably more thick skinned and considerably less PC. Emphasis needs to placed on combat related physical training (not just passing the APFT), combatives, and weapons training.
Single point slings. Mounting single point receiver end plates is very popular in some circles.
Get some damn Beretta OEM sand resistant mags!
The single poing slings worked well with me .Single point slings don't get in the way of mag changes. I had a three point sling and while it was cool and chicks dug it, it got in the way of reloading.
Slings: what works best and why for in MRAP, M1151, M114, SUV’s, for dismounted,
I favored the VTAC sling over the Vickers.
The vickers sling would always slip under the weight of my M4, requiring constant adjustment .
The vtac held fast.
This was in 1114/1151 and dismounted.
ACOG: pros cons, issues. Holding zero. Engaging targets at log range. CCO: Comp M2 or Comp M4 same questions as with ACOG
I had family from home ship me an ACOG w/doctor optic & GG&G mount. Afghanistan is rifle country and the engagement ranges are longer than MOUT scenarios. We had other soldiers purchase ACOGs also (unit issued CCO). Especially helpful when scanning likely hiding places in villages across the valley.
Once mounted , the Doc optic didn't need to be re-zero'd at 25m.
Same basic questions for M9.
I turned in my M9 back into supply once we were in country, didn't feel the need to carry the extra weight, especially with ball ammo.
My introduction to gun boards, was a result of me trying to find better ways to do my job. And it turned out to be very helpful.
I'll put together a more comprehensive e-mail together. It should be very interesting to compile this data and see the common denominators. I'll try to keep my contribution to what I would see as feasible and practical. I would also like to note I've been out of the Army for almost 3 years now, so some of my input could be moot point or such programs may exist without my knowledge.
A couple things,
"Check the box" training is the wrong answer. I read an article in the Army Times, about new philosphies regarding training. Of course there has to be some guidelines. But I'd like see more "train the trainer" programs producing greater expertise and see civilian resources encorporated and raise the bar on Soldiering skills. Personally, I think the FM's are a good starting point and obviously neccessary but there's alot more out there. Especially considering we want to produce professional gunfighters.
I think AAR's are a great tool. I'd like to see a Lessons Learned computerized data base, which leaders can draw on. As an analogy, If you got only a couple senior NCO's talking shop, you have alot of years experience and knowledge. I think it would be very beneficial to make categorized and specific AAR's available to other units. The format would have to be in a detailed written format. The program could deminish different units making similar mistakes.
Good luck with the program
Agreed, The weapons qual courses, pop ups, paper target BS needs to go. The Military needs to get together with some Private Training Firms and establish a new Training / Qual table which more accurately depicts what we do in combat. The SF guys train this way some high speed infantry units do too but too many regular units just do the minimum paper zero and pop up target qual from Prone supported, prone unsupported, kneeling. Seriously how many times do guys in Iraq and Afg lay down with a freaking sand bag and shoot "whack a mole" pop up insurgents who stand up for a couple of seconds and then lay down?
[QUOTE=Armati;284161]
As to training, TRADOC is nearly impenetrable. 'Warrior Ethos' is little more than a buzzword. For this concept to mean anything outside of the Combat Arms community, the Army (as an organizations) needs to develop a true warrior culture. I believe that fully 75% of the Army would be perfectly at home working at the DMV or some other low speed high drag civil service job. The organization needs to be considerably more thick skinned and considerably less PC. Emphasis needs to placed on combat related physical training (not just passing the APFT), combatives, and weapons training.
QUOTE]
Amen! I have been in active 14+ years split between SOF and the 82nd ABN Div. I am not a shooter (11B) But I agree completely that the military in general but especially the Army is far too PC. We care more about offending someone than properly training them. I could write a book on how the Army has gone wrong. It used to be when someone joined the military they expected it to be tough, they expected to get their feelings hurt, and be pushed to the limits of their physical capibilities. Not any more! Soldiers are given more slack today than can be imagined. It used to be a good dose of humiliation and PT would cure any issue but now its all about counseling and corrective training. I am glad I only have a few years left.
If your thermal sight looks like this, turn it off when not in use or remove the battery (if you can do so without using a gerber on the broken latch.) I had a horrible time getting these batteries in theater and it didnt help when the previous shift put them away without turning them off in the morning.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/nf9648/DSC00143a.jpg
CALL can't fix poor training or lax discipline. Complacency is the #1 killer of soldiers. Troops get lulled into this mindset that 'nothing has happened so nothing will happen.'
However, WTF is with the latch on the battery box of the PVS-13? Who approved this thing? Military equipment needs to go through some sort of soldier vetting process prior to acceptance. And what is with that battery? Just what the Army needs - another special battery! It does come with a AA battery adapter but a lot of them are missing in the field. Another fine tradition in procurement - buy things with a lot of easily lost or broken components.
Combat_Diver
03-06-09, 22:12
Any experience with PMAG’s in combat, how they hold up, how they function., how they compare to issue mags
PMAGs worked for the 6 months of abuse I gave them. Also PMAGS worked out of the M249 during the few mags that I ran through 100%. HK mags are heavier and and have had one out of 12 that would double feed.
Slings: what works best and why for in MRAP, M1151, M114, SUV’s, for dismounted,
I just like a slide sling swivel under the front sight post and attach to the rear. Sling point bounce around to much and bang my knees when walking and hands are preform other tasks. At least with a two point its muzzle is pointed to the side and doesn't bang knees.
Sights; what BUIS works best. Any issues with durability, holding zero, falling off the weapon
I have used the Knights 300m, ARMS 40L and Matech. I like the ARMS 40L (did have one nut come loose, fix with lock tight) and Matech (I am confident to take 500m shots with Irons with my M4)
ACOG: pros cons, issues. Holding zero. Engaging targets at log range
Have used the TA01NSN model for 13 years now and it is a great piece of equipment. Last year used one with a JPoint mount above the ACOG. Use the 8MOA dot and not the 4 MOA.
CCO: Comp M2 or Comp M4 same questions as with ACOG
Have used the Comp M2, EOTech 552, C-More and Trijicon Reflex. The Aimpoint and EOTech are the best in my experience. C-More's lack positive adjustment when zeroing and its guess work. Trijicon Reflex wasn't bright enough but that was in 1995.
After market personally purchased gear: what works, what doesn’t
Crimison Trace Laser Grips are a great enhancer. I've used them on M1911A1s, M9s and SIG 226s. The allow the shooter to shot will moving with great accuracy and speed. When preforming room clearing tasks you can point your pistol around corners, beds, tables, etc and still know if you'll hit a target if one emerges.
What works for maintenance that isn’t being taught.
Keep it clean and lubed.
Training ?
Regular Army doesn't train to standard just time. Too much bull, paperwork, range safety requirements that a squad/platoon can not train as a whole and takes too much time and resources. I've conduct 100s of safe ranges with only one RO and medic for just not SF but regular Army and foriegn troops.
Same basic questions for M9.
Clean and lube. The Army doesn't teach how to use the handgun in combat just load and shoot.
Anything you want to tell me about the weapons
The M203 needs a better training round for blank fire exercises. Its never used so troops don't remember to use it in combat to full extent. I learned a valuable lesson in the First Gulf War in combat. "Train as you fight, Fight as you Train"
CD
US Army MSG retired 1983-2008
Iraq 91,03-06,&08
Agreed, The weapons qual courses, pop ups, paper target BS needs to go. The Military needs to get together with some Private Training Firms and establish a new Training / Qual table which more accurately depicts what we do in combat. The SF guys train this way some high speed infantry units do too but too many regular units just do the minimum paper zero and pop up target qual from Prone supported, prone unsupported, kneeling. Seriously how many times do guys in Iraq and Afg lay down with a freaking sand bag and shoot "whack a mole" pop up insurgents who stand up for a couple of seconds and then lay down?
X3.
All the PC crap is just that...crap. Get rid of all A2s except for a "joe" or two designated as a longer range engagers and give everyone else a M4. and everyone good sights and optics. Good God, what a pain it is to stack and breach with a A2. Teach them, truly teach them, how to shoot from any conceivable situation or platform, not just from the foxhole supported and prone unsupported positions, blah FM23.9(or whatever it's called now) blah blah crap. If the Army continues to use outdated techniques then it is only maxing the minimum. And some NCOs that DO NOT enforce the standards and pass someone that didn't earn it...well shame on you and I hope you sleep well knowing that you may have a hand in that soldiers death in combat for not teaching them properly. Green Berets are the smallest branch in the Army and are trained to train indigs very well. Enlarge the concept of training to include their way, and all of the SF community's way of doing things. The SAS uses only live ammo when they train and no casualties. Hmmm, wonder why that is? Maybe because they train like the fight. Sounds familiar doesn't it? As soon as the root evil of PC and the watch/clock goes away and thick skin returns can the Army truly be a magnificent job and career to have again. Remember to train to STANDARD not to time.
Smuckatelli
03-19-09, 09:02
PMAGs worked for the 6 months of abuse I gave them. Also PMAGS worked out of the M249 during the few mags that I ran through 100%. HK mags are heavier and and have had one out of 12 that would double feed.
Good scoop on the PMAGS, I used to run IA drills with issued magazines and the 249. The only way that I could get them to work consistantly was by using brand new mags that the Marine would have to apply even pressure on the floorplate always from the prone. It worked for surpression but I never got the warm & fuzzy because to much time was spent worrying about the magazine.
PMAG's are awesome - I had over 30 in Iraq for two years. They are the only mag I would run these days in harms way.
Weapons - M4 - swap for M4A1, 3rd Burst system is ass.
- lube, lube, lube CLP, Militec, whatever - use it and lots of it (I like TW25B best)
- optic IMHO Aimpoint T1 would be the Cats Ass - but Comp M4 M68 is GTG, as is the M3 M68.
- EOTECH's - require much more user care and attention that the M68's
- M9 (I hate them) I used Glock 19 and 1911
I would ditch every single M16A2 and A4 in inventory, start a 7.62 SDM 16" barrel system with S&B Short Dot (my heart is in our [KAC] SR25BR)
ACOG - TA01NSN greys out during dust/dawn light, PEQ-2 will work on High Power for aiming then, but PAC-4 will not have enough juice to be seen (no a biggie as these are on the way out.
I used TA01NSN with KAC Dr Optic mount and Dr 2000-2003 - the two aiming positions to me is annoying as under stress I always would default to looking thru the magnified optic - unless I was already using the Dr.
Visible lights - someone - PLEASE tell Insight to stap trying to make a vis light, IR lasers are great, but then need to leave lights to Surefire at least until Insight can make a decent one... SF Scout light - GTG, if you need more light - use a vehicle or think and use NOD's
NVG's -- 14D's are okay, until you get dual tube, the mininal added weight from 50/50's or ANVIS is worth its weight in gold. I won't even talk about 7's
Training - I could rant for days, when contracting we would do ranges with regular units to try to help them out. Big Army is WAY WAY behind the 8 ball on this in both weapon handling safety, and combat marksmanship.
Navigation - map and compass - know them... Just cause FalconView does not have it does not mean its not there...
Paraclete comes
05-09-09, 18:39
I found like several other guys that always keeping a small bottle of lube is the only way to get through. I prefer to carry one bottle that i can use on all my weapons systems like the M40, MK11, XM3, M4, M9, etc.
I prefer not to use CLP but opt for hoppes fly reel oil/gun oil that stuff is insane and some of the best ive used. Also eezox works real good. For shooting the SASR or heavy guns pull that bolt out and dip the whole thing in motor oil, i know that sounds crazy but your gun wont go down!
As for optics i really like the eotechs and aimpoints. However i always find myself going with the acog, no batts and tough as nails. The USMC reticle is okay, but I would say cover up that fiber optic light gathering thing. I put a piece of electric tape over it or even paint it with a paint pen.
I find it absorbs to much light and makes the reticle larger which causes you not to have a percise point of aim on further tragets.
Keep a honey comb on that sucker for sure to prevent glint and protect the objective lens.
In regard to slings, well single point is great if you have the proper sling mount like the GG&G buffer tube mounts. But the two to one point slings are my favorite. Like the ones found at wilderness or harrison tactical made some in iraq for guys.
it allows you to sling it, cross body, and when you need to roll on a corner or need to shoot from off shoulder, etc. just hit that front buckle and you have the single point! best sling out there in my exp.
Buttstocks are important too, like the vltor emod or LMT sopmod. That solid CONSISTANT cheek weld make shots count. there solid and hold batts also which is good for the NODS, or hub batts for harris radios, etc.
Miad grips are awesome also. They give you that CONSISTANT finger placement and grip on the grip. we all know that consistant is accurate right, so anything that can be done to make us fit that weapon better is a money maker.
BUIS is a great item, the matech ones shoot great! easy to emply with no locks or anything. They are a little less robust than GG&G or other such sights but they get the job done just fine.
Flash suppressor might be a good items to look at also. The A2 birdcage is not the best, the smith vortex is alot better. But you dont need that in iraq since were not even shooting anyone over there anymore.
If your heading to Afgahn then look at that. Cans is a whole new topic, most units dont even get Subsonic ammo to begin with.
hope this helps, D
Paraclete comes
05-09-09, 18:43
in regard to the PEQs. The Peq 15's are ass they shut off after a few minutes auto. So i prefer the peq 2 as they run as long as the switch is on. Nothing worse than lazing a target for some CAS for a talk on, or pointing somthing out to a supporting unit only to have you lazer shut off. Constant running is the way to go.
Ive got a new PEQ 16 but am not sure how that thing is yet i havent used it.
Thanks for this thread... This is something we can all use to see how things hold up in harsh conditions.
bakke37330
05-28-09, 07:15
I'm over here now and the best thing that I have found to keep the M4 clean is WD40. Its widely available and doesnt attract as much sand and dust as CLP.
William B.
06-01-09, 20:48
I was in OEF and OIF. I had an M4 that ran flawlessly. I can't say enough good about that weapon. I cleaned it often and kept a light coat of Ballistol Sportsman's oil on it and it never let me down. I had an ACOG. I'm a big fan. I also like the EOTech, though. Especially on Machineguns. I used a 3 point sling. It worked decently, but it would have been better to have an ambidextrous sling. M4 gunners in my unit were issued the 77gr Sierra/Black Hills rounds. Awesome! My buddy had a one shot kill to an insurgent's chest with that round. We had plate carriers instead of regular flaks. They were much more comfortable and easier to move in, but don't offer as much protection. Better mags would have been nice. I had mostly standard GI mags with Ranger Floorplates, another good product. I had a steel HK mag. It was rugged, but I had to quit using it because it kept falling out of the mag well for no reason.
When I was in Al Hillah, we used just plain jane CLP. I wish we had M-Pro 7:)
I came across an article in the New York Times this morning, "In Battle,Hunches Prove To Be Valuable Assets." Its not a technical Lesson Learned, I thought I'd post it anyway. Basically its research and science about "trusting your gut". I took particular interest in the section "Seeing What Others Miss". Drawing on past experiences, knowledge of your AO,ect. you can detect threats.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/28/health/research/28brain.html?_r=1
I also included this article which will speak for itself, its worth reading on a number of levels.
http://spectator.org/archives/2007/11/01/the-longest-morning#
Six und Sixty
07-29-09, 13:09
I didn't have any luck with mil-tec. I still found it best to lube with a liquid.
The same goes for graphite dry lubes.
I found H&K steel magazines to be unreliable. Occasionally the lip between the brass and the bullet would catch on the magazine as the cartridge attempted to feed into the chamber. If your buffer spring weren't brand new it would happen even more frequently.
Aimpoints are tough as nails. Enough said.
I also found a long piece of rebar worked great a as a swizzel stick for stirring burning crap.
rifleman2000
08-20-09, 10:33
Best way to keep an M4 running: Keep it dry EXCEPT for CLP around the bolt (in the Bolt Carrier) and around the cam pin. That's it.
Issue BUIS, the "popsicle stick", breaks. GG&G or any solid BUIS is way better.
M68 is great. Never had an ACOG or EO Tech.
Teach Soldiers how to load plan. To many HMMWVs rolling through Afghanistan with their ammo, AT4s, etc, in the trunk of their vehicle when they have plenty of room under the gunner. Keep the AT4s in the turret.
Fam fire with crew served weapons is not enough. Fam fire ends up being range NCOs prepping a weapon so the students can get up to the firing line, pull the trigger, and leave. That is not training. Teach Soldiers to maintain their weapons in a hostile environment, keep a bottle of CLP in the turret of every vehicle and on the person of every machine gunner. Convoy live fire exercises should be done after driving the convoy through 1km of dust. See how many gunners keep their weapons going then! That is realistic. I have been in convoys under direct fire where over half of the crew served weapons were down due to shitty maintenance practices.
PRIORITIES OF WORK!!!! Not taught at all, except at Infantry and Ranger School, apparently. Way to many times have I seen troops roll up to an area (hostile) and before they establish a security plan, maintain weapons, vehicles, etc.; they are sucking down MREs like a bunch of sissies. This is a reflection of poor leadership and discipline! Priorities of work need to be taught at all levels, all branches, all MOS schools.
P mags work great. I load mine to 27 rounds out of habit though.
Clean and dry the weapon and take a Q tip saturated in CLP and run it around the cam pin recess in the bolt carrier, on the cam pin, the back of the bolt where carbon goes (the radius behind the gas rings), and hit the four rails of the bolt carrier.
Altogether it's like one drop of oil spread around.
The rifle runs great and doesn't collect dust. I've been here twice, and never a jam when I needed the gun to work.
Don't move accessories on the M4 after zeroing- the barrel harmonics and zero can change.
PRI gasbuster handles let some sand into the weapon on windy days. I still use mine because I have a can, but if I didn't I wouldn't.
Hello. I'm out here right now. There's a lot of good information that has been shared above and I won't be too repetitive.
-P-Mags P- Mags P- Mags!!! (enough said)
-Hilco weapons wipes- Work amazingly well and are fast to use. We got a bulk order from the company, but I googled a quick link for you to see what I'm talking about.
http://srtestore.com/detail.aspx?ID=870
-Aimpoint 3x Magnifier on Larue swivel mount. BEST $700 i have ever spent. The mount functions very well even in the sandy/dusty environment. The Magnifier allows you to have cqb capability on tap, then with the flick of your wrist, more of a sdm type platform. The set up has proven itself useful in countess numbers of houses and roof tops.
-ACU camo... I'm a ninja when I'm on the gravel... that's about it though
-Larue 2 pt. sling- I use this thing to its max capability daily. Making it shorter/longer ever hour, adjusting for in/out of vehicles or in different standing/kneeling positions. A single point sling is popular with my guys, and I like them too, but this has proven itself to me too many times to replace.
There are plenty of other things to comment on, but I believe several of them have been covered accurately. To those of you that are out here, good luck and stay safe.
Ive been to Afghan twice and the only point I can add to without repeating the stuff from above was MilTec. I absolutely loved Miltec, on my first tour I was putting it through my M16A2 (MusketA2) and my second tour through my SAW. Apply and Wipe most of it off, leaving a very very small coating, not visible and it would run like a top, coat it on, and nothign but smoke and trouble. I never had any issues firing regular USGI mags through the SAW, and very few issues with USGI mags in our M4's or A2's. I understand that its rare to have such luck.
Training. As a guardsman we either get lots of it or almost none. So far the best training that I believe my unit has recieved was out of Ft McCoy in Wisconsin. The instructors were great, and the facilities were amazing. My first tour we trained at Ft Drum, (in 2003) and learned how to dig Fighting positions in Pine Trees, not exactly Afghan environment..
ACUs. Please give us back our DCUs. Im sure enough has been said already.
Im not an 11B, nor claim to be, just a Counter-Battery guy.
There seems to be a large focus on what hardware seems to work best, et al... What magic lube kept your weapon functioning, etc... The bottom line is software. "Train as you fight", "Warrior Ethos", and whatever else some GSC, USMA educated Zero came up with to address the software issues are ineffective and words only. Sounds hooah. That's about it. Until that is solved, all the freakin p-mags, uber BUIS, ninja slings, and freakin tank turrets you wanna hang off your weapon will offer little advantage. The regular Army and Marine Corps need to allow reality into the training of non USSOC personnel. Realistic training is inherently dangerous and unforgiving, so thus very few regular Army or USMC combat arms are gonna receive it. The old " a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link, so focus on getting the weak link up to standard" philosophy is utter BS. Better a short chain that is strong, than one that has been weakened by the forced inclusion of the LCD. The standard is sub-standard, and no hardware will remedy that. Do forgive. I'm sure I'm being counter productive and anathema to the thread. I'll step down from the soap box, especially as there are much better qual'ed folks around than I who are still puttin rounds downrange. Just my 2 cents...after taxes, not worth shitezen.
The standard is sub-standard, and no hardware will remedy that.
No truer words were ever said.
And that is the problem. The problem in this war is not the technology. We overmatch our enemy in technology every time. The problem is that we are bringing an iPod to a gunfight. Our tactical and strategic thinking is fundamentally flawed.
Effective individuals and combat units are units that have historically lived the "warrior ethos" long the Big Army turned it into a meaningless buzzword. 'Back in the day' when I was in Division you needed a PT score of 260 or above to get on any order of merit list. Having a PT score of less than 260 had the net effect of being flagged at the unit level. Anyone with a PT score less than 240 had remedial PT at 18:00 with the unit Ranger committee. Meanwhile, the Army Standard for PT is 180.
We spend way to much time trying to 'check the box' and 'max the minimum.' Not to knock CALL (because they do yeoman's work) but do they plan to address this problem?
The USMC is moving the in the exact opposite direction. They are making their PT standards higher and requiring their leaders to possess advanced combatives skills.
The Army needs to scrap it's entire METL and MTOE system. It needs to do periodic (annual? biannual?) reviews of what the current operational environment is and then develop its entire training plan, force structure, and equipment lists based on the current reality.
All the same, a fish rots from the head. And when Gen Casey comes on TV after the Ft Hood shooting and tells the world that 'diversity' is a top Army priority we know we are screwed. If 'diversity' is killing your soldiers then it may be time to consider banning the practice.
Again, we need a change in thinking. Granted, there is a lot of good kit and good standards and practices out there. But as DCR375 points out, we will still get soldiers killed and continue to loose the war unless the Big Army makes a phase shift in thinking.
Moose-Knuckle
12-31-09, 12:20
Visible lights - someone - PLEASE tell Insight to stap trying to make a vis light, IR lasers are great, but then need to leave lights to Surefire at least until Insight can make a decent one... SF Scout light - GTG, if you need more light - use a vehicle or think and use NOD's
KevinB, I found your post most informative. Could you elaborate a little on your experiences with Insight visible lights? I was looking at installing a M3X on my Colt but might opt for a SF. This would help me make my decision a little easier.
Eddiesketti
02-03-10, 21:02
I can't give much info on weapons while i was in Iraq in 2003. All we had was stock crap and were not allowed to attach anything on the weapons:mad: I used chapstick on the bolt and it worked if helps anyone
Not sure if I have much input here as of now,
but I'm fresh outta OSUT (Infantry) and stationed at Ft. Lewis with the 5th brigade 2nd ID. and I can honestly say that i am 100% undertrained for our deployment on Feb 27th to the 'stan. we got issued M16a2's here (with the plastic handguards and fixd carry handle) and were told we'd be deploying with these rifles...... when we went to the zeroing/qualifying range (in one day) I was able to zero the weapon easily enough.. but while trying to Qual, i had 3 jams... 2 double feeds and 1 where the bullet got caught on the chamber. after we got done at the range we turned them in (without cleaning) and havent touched them since. After being a civilian shooter for about.. 8 years now, i know that's a big no no (not cleaning your weapon)
Back in Basic we trained with old M16A4's with Comp M2's. they worked pretty well so long as they were cleaned. but the closest we came to any type of hardcore training was running up a lane shooting pop ups from behind barracades with a battle buddy calling out "moving - Move" etc. etc.
Most of my training in the Stan' will be on the job, rolling out in strykers and foot marches learning as I go, which, according to common sense, isn't safe in the least. all they pound into our brains here is CLS and IED stuff. nothing about react to contact and such...
That's just my $.02 on it as an infantryman straight outta basic.
Combat_Diver
02-04-10, 00:08
Garrasa,
Once your deployed that rifle will be with you everyday 24/7. Keep it cleaned and oiled. You may also want to check your feed lips on your magazines. PXs here sell PMAGs and you should get an issue from REF. Your old M16A4 was the newest verison, just used. Good luck on your deployment and listen to your platoon sargeant.
CD
1371USMCFL
02-04-10, 01:14
Not sure if I have much input here as of now,
but I'm fresh outta OSUT (Infantry) and stationed at Ft. Lewis with the 5th brigade 2nd ID. and I can honestly say that i am 100% undertrained for our deployment on Feb 27th to the 'stan. we got issued M16a2's here (with the plastic handguards and fixd carry handle) and were told we'd be deploying with these rifles...... when we went to the zeroing/qualifying range (in one day) I was able to zero the weapon easily enough.. but while trying to Qual, i had 3 jams... 2 double feeds and 1 where the bullet got caught on the chamber. after we got done at the range we turned them in (without cleaning) and havent touched them since. After being a civilian shooter for about.. 8 years now, i know that's a big no no (not cleaning your weapon)
Back in Basic we trained with old M16A4's with Comp M2's. they worked pretty well so long as they were cleaned. but the closest we came to any type of hardcore training was running up a lane shooting pop ups from behind barracades with a battle buddy calling out "moving - Move" etc. etc.
Most of my training in the Stan' will be on the job, rolling out in strykers and foot marches learning as I go, which, according to common sense, isn't safe in the least. all they pound into our brains here is CLS and IED stuff. nothing about react to contact and such...
That's just my $.02 on it as an infantryman straight outta basic.
You have got to be kidding me man, I had heard it was bad but damn.
RogerinTPA
02-04-10, 10:10
Not sure if I have much input here as of now,
but I'm fresh outta OSUT (Infantry) and stationed at Ft. Lewis with the 5th brigade 2nd ID. and I can honestly say that i am 100% undertrained for our deployment on Feb 27th to the 'stan. we got issued M16a2's here (with the plastic handguards and fixd carry handle) and were told we'd be deploying with these rifles...... when we went to the zeroing/qualifying range (in one day) I was able to zero the weapon easily enough.. but while trying to Qual, i had 3 jams... 2 double feeds and 1 where the bullet got caught on the chamber. after we got done at the range we turned them in (without cleaning) and havent touched them since. After being a civilian shooter for about.. 8 years now, i know that's a big no no (not cleaning your weapon)
Back in Basic we trained with old M16A4's with Comp M2's. they worked pretty well so long as they were cleaned. but the closest we came to any type of hardcore training was running up a lane shooting pop ups from behind barracades with a battle buddy calling out "moving - Move" etc. etc.
Most of my training in the Stan' will be on the job, rolling out in strykers and foot marches learning as I go, which, according to common sense, isn't safe in the least. all they pound into our brains here is CLS and IED stuff. nothing about react to contact and such...
That's just my $.02 on it as an infantryman straight outta basic.
I agree with CD. Get some quality mags and keep your BCG lubed. Might want to pick up a Magpul Art of the Tactical Carbine I, to look at since it's too late to get in a carbine course. Good luck.
Yeah, the shit's crazy here. Had my mom ship my Pmags, from home up. should have them today aswell as a knife and my Olight. Definatly gonna be picking up more Pmags (like hopefully around 30) and might pick up a good optic.
I'll have to pick up those magpul training classes. be something to pass the time on the flight over. We were told that we might the the A2's swapped out for M4's upon arrival in the stan' dunno if it's like 100% for sure yet tho. I hope so :(
Thanks for all the advice guys! It's all extremely valuable and much appreciated.
Garassa, I was in iraq from dec '04 to dec'05, and in my experience, the rifle you ship over with is the rifle you got. so while things may have changed, I would be prepared to "use what you gots". stay safe, and don't let your guard down.
I didn't used to believe it but wetter is better for rifles in the sandbox. In 04-05 issued an m16a4 (IRAQ) then in 08 (AFGN) issued M4 no problems with either or my m9 for that matter. m9 mags need to be disassembled and cleaned very frequently to work well. training both rotations was box checker type stuff- was told and can actually beleive it that a lot of the reasons for all the sign in sheets verifing training etc is so when some widow or parent loses someone and claims death due to lack of training they can pull out documents and say see, he did go to IED class. Training for oef in 07/08 WAS better than what we got in 04 but only by a little. As a field grade officer I can say in my experience the lower the rank of instructor, the better the training was. We were at Bragg and did get some good training(when the box checkers were not looking!)
Not sure if I have much input here as of now,
but I'm fresh outta OSUT (Infantry) and stationed at Ft. Lewis with the 5th brigade 2nd ID. and I can honestly say that i am 100% undertrained for our deployment on Feb 27th to the 'stan. we got issued M16a2's here (with the plastic handguards and fixd carry handle) and were told we'd be deploying with these rifles...... when we went to the zeroing/qualifying range (in one day) I was able to zero the weapon easily enough.. but while trying to Qual, i had 3 jams... 2 double feeds and 1 where the bullet got caught on the chamber. after we got done at the range we turned them in (without cleaning) and havent touched them since. After being a civilian shooter for about.. 8 years now, i know that's a big no no (not cleaning your weapon)
Back in Basic we trained with old M16A4's with Comp M2's. they worked pretty well so long as they were cleaned. but the closest we came to any type of hardcore training was running up a lane shooting pop ups from behind barracades with a battle buddy calling out "moving - Move" etc. etc.
Most of my training in the Stan' will be on the job, rolling out in strykers and foot marches learning as I go, which, according to common sense, isn't safe in the least. all they pound into our brains here is CLS and IED stuff. nothing about react to contact and such...
That's just my $.02 on it as an infantryman straight outta basic.
Are you a late-deployer on Rear-D? If so, that would explain the M-16A2, the complete lack of team/squad/platoon level training during the duty day, and the lack of discipline as far as your leadership telling you to put the weapons away dirty.
If you are a late-deployer, once you get in country and get to your Company, you should get a different weapon. You will also hopefully get squared away really quick by your platoon. Rear-Ds have a habit of being full of shitbags and turd-burglars.
Belmont31R
04-03-10, 09:46
My 1st deployment was like that. I was 5 weeks out of AIT, and got sent to my unit in Germany only to find it was rear-D, and I was leaving ASAP to Baghdad.
1 week later after flying out I was on convoys in Baghdad with an A2 I hadnt even shot yet, had to borrow plates from other people because I didn't have any (actually I was issued an old PASGT vest to deploy with), and no idea what to do if we got hit. I was commo so my AIT was all technical BS, and never fired a weapon the entire 3 months. Back then no one had armored vehicles either, and we used to ride like 8-10 deep in the back of a troop transports with weapons pointed out the sides and rear. No one really had a plan on what to do if we were ambushed, IED strike, etc. I've also spent many many many hours riding around in trucks in the city without a clue as to where we were because the dumb ass butter bars can't read a map. Our signal BN actually averaged more convoys than combat arms units because we had people all over the place that needed support, constantly had to adjust where our equipment was as units moved around, mail runs, RR, and our BN CMDR was a medal hunter who kept his own QRF that he took out trying to get into firefights by driving through the worst areas he could on purpose.
If you are actually deploying with that A2 you can get a gooseneck mount so you can at least put an RDS on it. Not ideal but its better than nothing.
I'd also recommend stocking up on some cleaning supplies because theres no telling what you are going to be able to get over there. Some quality lube like Slip EWL, you got some PMAG's, get a decent sling (VCAS or VTAC), some brushes, etc. Keep your shit clean when you can. The compressed air for cleaning electronics works good to get sand and dust out. Keep it wet....
... Our signal BN actually averaged more convoys than combat arms units because we had people all over the place that needed support, ....
I am always grateful for support units doing the most they can to do their part. combat arms can't do their job without you. So thank you for your efforts. But the reason you did more convoys than combat arms is because convoys aren't the mission of combat arms. The Infantry guys were out doing nighttime raids on HVIs, conducting SKTs for days at a time, doing knock and searches, and searching for caches in palm groves.
As for the original topic:
- I preferred to keep my M4 well lubed, but far from dripping. After fully cleaning the weapon, I would put dabs of CLP on the bolt, bolt carrier, inside the upper receiver, and quite a bit on the buffer and buffer spring. Then using my fingers, I would rub the CLP all over the parts, applying a nice even coat all over the parts. The reason why I put a lot on the spring is simply because I hate the sound of a dry spring when charging the weapon.
-Despite quite a bit of gun rag/internet accusations to the contrary, the M4 is very reliable, even when a little dirty.
-One of my duties has been Company armorer, which I had for 2.5 years. During that time I saw two problems the most.
---The most prevalent issue was failure to feed. And the most common reason for that was standard issue mags. Since switching to PMAGs, I personally haven't had a single failure to feed, even with blanks.
---The second most common problem I encountered was failure to extract caused by worn extractors. A couple times it was a loose gas key, but 99% it was the extractor. Extractors are cheap, and your armorers should have a rather large bench-stock of them. Make sure you keep an eye on yours. And for civvies, keep a few extra hanging around.
-While most units try to put as big optics as they can on M240Bs, I preferred just an M68 on mine in the gun truck. It worked like a freakin' charm for the engagements in Iraq. This is probably different for the folks in Afghan of course.
That's all I have for now.
Belmont31R
04-03-10, 12:50
I am always grateful for support units doing the most they can to do their part. combat arms can't do their job without you. So thank you for your efforts. But the reason you did more convoys than combat arms is because convoys aren't the mission of combat arms. The Infantry guys were out doing nighttime raids on HVIs, conducting SKTs for days at a time, doing knock and searches, and searching for caches in palm groves.
As for the original topic:
- I preferred to keep my M4 well lubed, but far from dripping. After fully cleaning the weapon, I would put dabs of CLP on the bolt, bolt carrier, inside the upper receiver, and quite a bit on the buffer and buffer spring. Then using my fingers, I would rub the CLP all over the parts, applying a nice even coat all over the parts. The reason why I put a lot on the spring is simply because I hate the sound of a dry spring when charging the weapon.
-Despite quite a bit of gun rag/internet accusations to the contrary, the M4 is very reliable, even when a little dirty.
-One of my duties has been Company armorer, which I had for 2.5 years. During that time I saw two problems the most.
---The most prevalent issue was failure to feed. And the most common reason for that was standard issue mags. Since switching to PMAGs, I personally haven't had a single failure to feed, even with blanks.
---The second most common problem I encountered was failure to extract caused by worn extractors. A couple times it was a loose gas key, but 99% it was the extractor. Extractors are cheap, and your armorers should have a rather large bench-stock of them. Make sure you keep an eye on yours. And for civvies, keep a few extra hanging around.
-While most units try to put as big optics as they can on M240Bs, I preferred just an M68 on mine in the gun truck. It worked like a freakin' charm for the engagements in Iraq. This is probably different for the folks in Afghan of course.
That's all I have for now.
Unless you guys are walking on foot out the ECP's you are convoying somewhere. I worked in the division command group for a few months actually. We were their commo support, did their VTC setups, etc. They keep track of every convoy that leaves be it us going out to change personnel or you guys going out to dismount somewhere and search a palm grove. Our division cmdr actually had to have a talk with our BN cmdr about how much we were going out as it wasn't our job to have a QRF but we had one anyways. In this type of war combat arms doesn't always have the monopoly on being outside the wire, and many combat support units are doing their fair share of being out there. My 2nd deployment I was actually out there with our brigade recon team doing EOD escort missions, and my company took over a security job from a combat arms unit since our signal mission is no longer there. Our equipment was parked in a motor pool at liberty, and we did other things like filling in spots in other units.
The main failures I saw were lack of lube, cleaning, and bad mags. People would let their guns get filthy with the dust build up, and then keep them dry so the sand wouldnt stick. Recipe for failure...
Maybe as an armorer you can elaborate but I was never aware of any maintenance at the company level in regards to a firing schedule. I never saw a recoil/action spring, gas rings, etc replaced.
Unless you guys are walking on foot out the ECP's you are convoying somewhere. ....
Maybe as an armorer you can elaborate but I was never aware of any maintenance at the company level in regards to a firing schedule. I never saw a recoil/action spring, gas rings, etc replaced.
Well, a convoy is a different animal than a patrol. Just because it involves vehicles doesn't make it a convoy. If we were in Humvees or Brads, it was a mounted patrol. Convoy is a group of vehicles who's purpose is to move from one FOB/COP to another. Oh well, we're just arguing semantics there.
And combat arms doesn't have the monopoly on being outside the wire. But I'm pretty sure they did have the monopoly on things like conducting nighttime raids on HVTs using air assaults for insertion. I'm not trying to belittle your involvement. Everybody did their necessary piece of the pie. And support units were definitely the targets of many IEDs when they were out on the roads. I'm just trying to emphasize that being outside the wire, pulling security for other elements, conducting presence patrols, and things like that are not equivalent to doing a combat arms mission. Hell, I'm not even doing a combat arms mission this time around. ;)
About the small arms repair stuff, I can shed some light. There is only a very small amount of repair that is technically allowed at Company level. A Company armorer is allowed a certain amount of bench-stock to complete repairs they're authorized. If my memory serves me, the extractor was one of them. It should be since removing the extractor is at the operator level. Gas rings were definitely not Company level, though I did do them. Anything else not at the Company level needs to go to the Battalion small arms repairers. Unfortunately, that involves quite a bit of bureaucratic mess and trying to go through the PLL office(::shudder::). And sadly, I'd have to show the Joes at the shop how to do some things even though it was their MOS. Luckily, I was able to order quite a bit of Class 9 repair parts that weren't technically part of my authorized bench-stock. I didn't do things like swap barrels, replace bolts, or replace lower receiver parts, but for many easy fixes I was able to get a soldiers weapon back to them right away as opposed to the weapon being deadlined for 2 weeks or so. Actually I take that back; I have replaced lower receiver parts. One of our SDMs had the lower receiver slightly crushed in a Bradley ramp and I had the choice to code out the SDM rifle or one of our spare, regular, M16A4s that were laying around. I knew we wouldn't get another SDM from AMU until at least the end of the deployment, so I put the regular M16A4's lower receiver on the SDM's upper and then swapped trigger assemblies. I was in the wrong according to the Army, but it helped maintain unit readiness so I didn't really care.
Boresnake.
Since no one else mentioned it.
Got to have a boresnake.
Dont over clean the weapons.
I would see some of these guys with scraper tools going to town on their BCG when they hadnt even fired a round in weeks. No need for that when its just dusty.
Keep the dust cover closed and a barrel cap on.
Never had a problem with my rifle and no one in my platoon really did either, that wasnt mag related. Those got fixed quick.
Dont over clean the weapons.
I would see some of these guys with scraper tools going to town on their BCG when they hadnt even fired a round in weeks. No need for that when its just dusty.
Keep the dust cover closed and a barrel cap on.
Never had a problem with my rifle and no one in my platoon really did either, that wasnt mag related. Those got fixed quick.
+1 on this.
The other thing I learned is soldiers often mistakenly under-lube their weapons in the thought that will keep them cleaner in a dusty environment. That's a dangerous misnomer that needs correcting.
There are a lot of cleaning fallacies in the Army that are just pure nonsense and continue to propagate due to traditions and myths.
ParkisMaximus
05-29-10, 19:20
Unless you guys are walking on foot out the ECP's you are convoying somewhere. I worked in the division command group for a few months actually. We were their commo support, did their VTC setups, etc. They keep track of every convoy that leaves be it us going out to change personnel or you guys going out to dismount somewhere and search a palm grove. Our division cmdr actually had to have a talk with our BN cmdr about how much we were going out as it wasn't our job to have a QRF but we had one anyways. In this type of war combat arms doesn't always have the monopoly on being outside the wire, and many combat support units are doing their fair share of being out there. My 2nd deployment I was actually out there with our brigade recon team doing EOD escort missions, and my company took over a security job from a combat arms unit since our signal mission is no longer there. Our equipment was parked in a motor pool at liberty, and we did other things like filling in spots in other units.
The main failures I saw were lack of lube, cleaning, and bad mags. People would let their guns get filthy with the dust build up, and then keep them dry so the sand wouldnt stick. Recipe for failure...
Maybe as an armorer you can elaborate but I was never aware of any maintenance at the company level in regards to a firing schedule. I never saw a recoil/action spring, gas rings, etc replaced.
man you must have been in a shitty unit. we put our small arms repair guy to work. he had his own tent and everything. he was always orderin us shit.
gotta love that gwot funds
ParkisMaximus
05-29-10, 19:23
all in all about the technical lessons learned, my input is weight of weapons. there are so many things that can be done to reduce weight, mainly for the 249 and 240. i know there is a new 240L out and all, but it just takes to much damn time to circulate. along with the new version of the 249. get it to us faster and that would be a big help.
Didn't use PMAGS; however, used Magpul followers in GI mags and they worked great. My unit had a good budget for COTS gear and we purchased VTAC slings and EOTECH optics. In our jobs, it was just as important to secure your weapon for hands-free movement as it was to have it readily available. The VTAC sling allowed the M4 to be secured across the chest or the back. From either secured position, a quick tug on the release and the weapon could be shouldered and presented. After all, the sling was designed by Kyle Lamb--enough said. The EOTECH (had model good with NVGs and accepted AA batteries) could take a beating. Never had a battery go dead (we changed them weekly---more than needed; however, better safe than sorry). No problems with exposure to heat or dirt/dust either. In pre-deployment training, the EOTECH helped soldiers post much higher qual scores than with irons or the M68s. The 68s are great, I think it is a personal preference thing. Nothing on the M9s as we all had Glock 19s which functioned flawlessly. Hope this was some good info for you. MTF
The only complaint i had looks to have been corrected. I did OEF in 03 through 04. We were not allowed to have any personal items on our weapons. The coolest thing for us at the time were cloth saw pouches and Molle. I sure would have like one of those fg with the bipod built in. Issue SAW bipods are junk.
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=5756&stc=1&d=1280870648
Biggest issue in my unit is the age of equipment. M4s that have been around for 3-4 deployments without really ever being worked over. Mags are all jacked up too, but we did get some steel mags with yellow anti-tilt followers that have been working alright.
Getting things fixed around here takes forever though. It took us 8 months to get our ACOGs back. Longer to get our PSQ-20s fixed (they break all the time too).
I also went a month on deployment with a worn out extractor spring. Of course it failed miserably, and of course it was during contact. It took someone running over there M4 for me to be able get in there with a gerber and get a different spring.
Hitting points on the original subject for me are
Better maintenance above company level.
Plain old 2-point slings work well for me. Had a 3 point, but went back to a 2 point with different attachment points.
ACOGs seem to be just fine, all of our aimpoints are pretty junky though. Multiple deployments have take its toll.
Aftermarket gear that I used was mostly boots/assault packs stuff like that, not too much weapon stuff.
M9. Never really done anything besides FAM fires. Our 2 for our platoon only really got used so people didn't have to carry their rifles around the FOBs.
Weapons training. Generally garbage, but better this life cycle than last. It's things like our DMRs that bug me though. As of right now (and it was this way before last deployment) our alpha team leaders are DMs and have M16A4s with an ACOG (my whole upper receiver is machined crooked actually, but that doesn't seem to bother anyone but me) and we use them the whole time in garrison, then about a month before we deploy, we get M14EBRs. No real time to train or familiarize, just a one day class on "hey stupid, this is a real scope, do this and you'll hit that known distance E-type silhouette".
Half of the guys with M14s didn't even know how to disassemble them. That's a failure as far as I'm concerned. With how much time we get preached at and told "you're an infantryman, hooah? you need to know everything about your weapon, hooah?" they just hand people rifles and tell them to go.
Same thing with heavy weapons. I never fired a MK19 until 3/4 of the deployment was over.
Anyway, I could rant all night.
In my 21 years of service, I've been on both sides, shooting and procuring equipment. Luckily on my last couple of deployments instead of going with the norm, we actually were allowed to talk to the line units and ask them what they needed and for the most part I was able to get it! If the entire Army worked this way I think there would be less equipment end up in a dumpster because it is a P.O.S. thus saving the army butt loads of money replacing useless crap in the first place. I was able to aquire ACOGs and EOTechs for multiple Battalions and guess what? Division HQ wasn't far behind trying to do the same thing down the road. I also purchased body armor, magazines for M4's and M-9's that worked. I regularly helped attached units get the same stuff my guys had because going thru their supply was like hitting a brick wall when they asked for stuff like I could get. And the last thing, Glocks, my guys used the confiscated Glocks more than the M-9, a much better weapon and thousand of Law Enforcement Officers that carry them as a primary weapon can't be too wrong. Granted there are much better handguns out there but for the price, A Glock is much better than the Berretta!
Any experience with PMAG’s in combat, how they hold up, how they function., how they compare to issue mags
PMAGs should be standard issue. They are superior in all ways imaginable.
Slings: what works best and why for in MRAP, M1151, M114, SUV’s, for dismounted,
I run a blackhawk CQB single point (although there or several companies who sell the same thing). It's pretty much just a quick release D-Ring on a strap that attaches to your MOLLE. I think it is the best setup for any operation. QD it off and on when dismounting/mounting, fastest and least interfering sling when walking.
Sights; what BUIS works best. Any issues with durability, holding zero, falling off the weapon
ACOG: pros cons, issues. Holding zero. Engaging targets at log range
CCO: Comp M2 or Comp M4 same questions as with ACOG
Never used my BUIS, I had an Eotech with a flip out 3x magnifier.
After market personally purchased gear: what works, what doesn’t
If I had the money, I would replace 95% of my issued gear with better stuff that is readily available online. What I did do is a lot of my own pouches to tailor my load out, it seems you get issued the standard rifleman stuff but after that you are on your own. Issued rucks/3-day bags are a joke, my unit buys commercial ones before deployments.
What works for maintenance that isn’t being taught.
Put more damn lube on it and keep the dust cover shut. Barrel covers are great too.
Training ?
Ideally, the big military should take a note from the cool guys and contract our some weapons training to civilian instructors. I got more out of a couple days of a good civilian instructor than 2 years of the usual military training. I believe units have the ability to contract these guys, which is what mine does, but it needs to actually happen.
polydeuces
01-21-11, 00:03
For some this may be like Same Shit Different Day, but for someone like me, thinking and being told that our soldiers going in the line of fire should and do get the best, i am really upset about what I am reading.
Basically what I hear is many soldiers going on tour, facing combat, are significantly less trained than me (just another citizen). Have to spend much of their own money to replace basic gear they (you) have to depend your life on, gear that works. Sometimes not even allowed to do so - bureaucracy at its finest.
And that is outrageous. Worse - it's grossly negligent.
So what to do about it? Training should reflect real world combat situations. With gear that works. Even a dumb lazy couch laying cheeto's eating ****tard like me knows this.
But to figure this out those that run the show probably need to spend mega $$$$ on some focus group or committee study?:confused:
Why is this not more common knowledge? I can only hope because these occurrences are mostly incidental, not systemic...please...please....?
Actually, if look at the American military history, this has always been the case.
Your best shooters in the force have typically been guys who did a lot shooting growing up - SGT York come to mind. However, there are a lot of combat related skills that also have to be taught/learned besides shooting - TC3, different radio systems, night driving with NODs, Law of Land Warfare, Code of Conduct/SERE, and so on and so on.
Commands should support additional range time. Something along the lines of 'fun jumps' where ABN troops can come out and get additional jumps on the weekend. Some posts (like Bragg and Benning) do run some programs like this but it is not enough and not widespread enough. The problem is the people in charge. I would argue that fully 80% of the Army would be perfectly happy working at the DMV. Most troops do not care much for PT, ruck marches, additional range time, combatives or other such 'manly' pursuits that most people assume the Army is doing all of the time.
GIs have always had to buy a lot of there own stuff. Primarily, it stems from a procurement systems bogged down by congressional mandates, bureaucratic inefficiency, and a hierarchical supply system that is 60 years out of date.
If Congress and the DoD really wanted to fix this system they would outfit soldiers much in the same way PDs do. You have an approved purchase list and you purchase your stuff from approved suppliers. Troops could be given an account similar to the UCDPP (for purchasing uniforms) for this purpose. Each unit could push funds into this account as required.
In the meantime, our boys will make do with whatever they have - just like they have done since 1775.
polydeuces
01-24-11, 11:18
What you say sounds right and makes sense. So that's probably why it's not happening, unless they do it themselves. As you said.
It appears that many things that make sense are nor applied, by bureaucrats, those sitting safely behind a desk at the expense of others. The way of the world, I know, but frustrating to hear and see these things that are so easily remedied, but because of some asshole(s), aren't.
Perhaps time for some manufacturers and distributers to ante up - give someone who's about to be deployed stuff for free, or at least at cost. If this meant me paying more for my shit, I would gladly do so!
Just a thought.
Also, a better Maintenance inspection criteria at the company, BN and BDE level to replace and repair parts before they become an issue.
Working my way through the thread.
This one is a HUGE one IMHO.
Hmm...weapons training overall during the mob phase needs improvement. Limiting gunnery during mob to identified gunners/ A gunners created problems once they got into theatre. It was , quite frankly, a joke. Once you're in theatre and your squads get shuffled around, the guys who were gunners during the mob training were often no longer your gunners in country, and their replacements hadn't gotten any trigger time on crew served in mob training. So you have to drag them to the range to get them spun up. And depending on where you are in country, you hear the line that "there is no training ammo in country". I didn't have that problem in Helmand or Kandahar, but I heard that line a lot in my last three months when I was shipped back to Kabul.
Poor pre-mob weapons inspections maintenance above unit level left us in mob training with individual and crew-served weapons that were scrapped once they were looked over. This left us with weapons we couldn't train with during mob. Luckily once we were in country we fell in on weapons and most of our unit stuff sat in the unit connexes for the duration, but what if we had needed those weapons? How is it that these weapons are "good enough" to train with when you are on state duty but aren't caught/ identified/ replaced until we're on Federal orders. I know its a money issue, but we shouldn't have to wait to be mobilized to have bad weapons scrapped/ replaced. Once we were in mob training, repair times were horrendous. Guys who had M4s go down were better off doing our own repairs than turning them in for repair, because they wouldn't see them again.
Once I extended for a second year and had a chance to see the training levels of the guys from the state that was replacing ours, I found that many of the same training issues plagued the guys who were replacing my states guys who were RIPing out. I had to spend the first few weeks of my second year rolling those new guys out to the range and trying to get them spun up on the crew served weapons we had. That detracts from the mission we were there to perform.
I'll add more as I read the rest of the thread
My experience and location, as per the OPs request:
OEF VII Helmand
OEF VIII Kandahar
OEF IX Kabul
Getting ready to go back next year.
Belmont31R
01-27-11, 13:25
A lot of this depends on your unit. In mine we did our own training, and just signed off on the warrior training checklist or whatever it was called. They literally lined us up one time while in the field, had a long table with the sheets, and we went through signing each one. We never did half that shit because it was worthless cold war era shit and took away training time from more valuable tasks like convoy training. When we got to Kuwait the MPRI guys said we did better than most combat arms units, and the same with the CQB training. We did the normal quals but they got us doing lots of weapons training outside of that. If we were in the field they setup impromptu training like driving at night with nods. We did night fires with chem light sticks on targets. For a combat support unit we were doing pretty good. Over 90% of our company was combat life saver trained, over 2/3rds were qual'd on a weapon other than their issue weapon. Our COC got in touch with the local German units and we did lots of cross training. Even did some with the Polizei swat type guys. In fact I still have a pair of jump wings and a beret a German Army HALO guy swapped me for some patches.
When I pcs'd I went to a major check the block unit with a 1SG who never deployed before (or even left CONUS in his life), and a CO who was in an aviation unit in some desk job. As a result we spent all our training time sitting around in classes and no one could take charge, toss that shit out, and get our company doing beneficial training. Our only range time was the boring stand around all day 40 round qualification. Our weapons training was dime drills all day or classes with someone telling you about a weapon. Basically since none of my chain of command except for one or two NCO's had ever deployed before the only thing the planners had to fall back on was what big Army pushed down to them. Since they could not come up with anything but the old style training or big Army checklists we once went a month doing nothing all day long but area beautification. My platoon leader didn't know how to use a SINCGAR let alone load any COMSEC into it. She didn't know what to do in the field. It was really depressing to be in this situation and I actually got in a bit of trouble for speaking up about the lack of training or why we were focusing what training time we did get on things like NBC. We spent over 50% of our training time on NBC. Im surprised I didn't get UCMJ for that which was me telling the 1SG he didn't know how to train or lead a unit, morale was in the dumps, and I wouldn't feel comfortable deploying with a unit in this condition. That was after the month of nothing but area beuatification where all the senior NCO's would disappear, junior NCO's were left in charge meaning they didn't do anything, and the junior enlisted mowed the grass 2 times a week, ect. The SSG over me would show up in the morning, and that was it.
Oh just something else I remember. When my company came back from our 2nd deployment (only our co deployed out of my BN) we were told we had to revert back to our old alice equipment because the rest of the BN didn't have molle, and alice gear was the BN standard. So we went through all the pre-deployment training, a deployment, and then come back to revert back to 80's/90's era shit? Oh and the BN took 3/4ths of our optics we got in Kuwait because it wasn't "fair" the other companies didn't have them, too, even though they weren't on any type of deployment rotation when my CO was due to who we were attached to.
So it really does just depend on what unit you are in. If you have the right leadership you can get quality training (as best as you can within the big Army) or if you get stuck in a crap unit like my 2nd one you will deploy with little to no relevent training and a command that doesn't really care. Just about any unit combat arms or not has people within it who have deployed, gone through training, and can make up their own training where big Army falls short. It just takes a unit that has the balls to toss the big Army training schedule in the trash and get their people training that is going to be beneficial to them when they deploy. Even if its just going out in the field with them and driving around in trucks doing convoy procedures or practicing CQB drills on their own.
As far as equipment goes the big Army is always going to issue the bare minimum, and they are not going to keep up with the greatest and latest or even the best at the time. Almost all of the molle stuff I was issued went into a bag I could pull out for inspections. I had all my own mag pouches, water bladder pouch, ect. We got issued those Skillcraft brand Camelbak knockoffs which sucked. All the people who used them always used to have water leaking out all over their backs they were so sucky. We got issued one pair of Oakley's that were supposed to last an entire 15 months of training and deployment. I bought my own KAC rail and ACOG. I bought my own cleaning supplies. Im not sure how things are now since its been a couple years since Ive been in but doesn't sound like things have changed much.
The standard M4-M16 mag is good with followers, however I was able to get a hold of a few hk mags from a British Marine in sangin and those things are great, never had a bad feed of any issues firing after that. I was a marine and we used the acog. Not my favorite of sight but hey it's the marines and we have to use what were given.
The standard M4-M16 mag is good with followers, however I was able to get a hold of a few hk mags from a British Marine in sangin and those things are great, never had a bad feed of any issues firing after that. I was a marine and we used the acog. Not my favorite of sight but hey it's the marines and we have to use what were given.
Standard magazines with magpul followers(or the new tan issue ones) are far superior to regular magazines. However, they don't operate as smoothly as PMAGs and still stink with blanks. It's not too much of an issue because, well.. they're blanks. But PMAGs have been the only magazines that have reliably fed any ammo that I've put through them. The HK mags are nice, but offer no real world benefit over PMAGs and are also heavier and considerably more expensive.
My question is, why are you complaining about being issued an ACOG? I understand preferring an aimpoint for urban operations, but to essentially say "Well, I guess I'll use the ACOG... if I have to.(looking down with hands in pockets and kicking the dirt)"; well that boggles my mind. What's your issue with it?
I'll mirror tons of what's already been said - PMAGS, be extremely competent at weapon manipulations (wouldn't require range time and paperwork), teaching reasonable cleaning regimens, and for god's sake preventative maintenance and proactive parts replacement should apply to small arms.
On a nontechnical end, things like giving company commanders access to small cash funds to make various improvements and get locals employed - absolutely cost effective use of resources, and bang for buck in a COIN environment. I mentioned this to Gen. Petraeus, got a very positive response, but it's something that just needs more work on it, and not be yet another of those critical policy decisions that gets lost, muddled, mismanaged, misinterpreted, and inaccurately regurgitated by the middle brass.
kaltesherz
03-21-11, 01:44
U.S. Army Infantry (Heavy Weapons Co), 12 months in Khost Province, Afghanistan 2008-2009
Mounted positions: 8 months driver (1151), 4 months gunner (mainly .50 but sometimes M240B)
Dismounted positions: SDM (2 months), SAW gunner (6 months), Grenadier (4 months)
- I used PMags a bit toward the end of the the tour with my M4/203. They worked well (100%) and gave piece of mind as you can't always test all your mags and GI mags can be a crapshoot. It's also nice being able to visually check how many rounds you've got in each mag, when you're constantly clearing weapons sometimes people forget to put another round in the mag and after awhile 30 rounders are actually more like 12 rounders. Also Pmags work great in M249's, where USGI mags blow in that role. USGI mags aren't too bad though with the M4, as long they're not abused, have followers replaced with Magpuls, and are made by Okay. HK mags suck, they're expensive, heavy, and feed lips bend if you look at them wrong.
- Slings: I used a Vickers BFG sling that I bought when they first came out for my M14 and M4/203 and thought it worked great. Only room for improvement would be the padded version, probably easier on the neck. I used a Vickers BFG M240 sling for my SAW and liked that too, despite being retarded expensive.
Sights; what BUIS works best. Used issued Matec, no problems
-ACOG: BEST. THING. EVER. Absolutely love ACOGs and we all used them. In Afghanistan everything seems to be far away and they helped us ID potential threats (including IEDs), plus they also make ranging a piece of cake. I even put one on my SAW (which wasn't common back then) and thought they were a great combo. Very durable and rarely had loss of zero.
-CCO: Only used a M2 briefly with my SAW, we never used them much but never had problems with them. A few guys tried to use EOTechs 'cause they thought they looked cool and quickly found that they broke constantly and were completely worthless. If we had engagements within 200m I would have preferred an M2 but 400-700 was the usual.
After market personally purchased gear: Pouches, issued kit BLOWS. The only kit that worked was the FLC as a SAW gunner, otherwise it was useless. The only personally purchased gear we were allowed was pouches / chest rigs. I hated our IOTV, it was bulky, heavy, hot, and made it impossible to engage targets on mountains in the prove with the neck piece on, which we were forced to use. Issue ruck worked fine, but the assault pack was too small. Gen III ECWCS was nice but bulky and heavy so most of that $1500 system stayed in the plastic. Sleep system worked well though. Oh, and poncho and wobbie FTW Wow 'm off topic...
-What works for maintenance that isn’t being taught. It's amazing how many people don't know the basics for the M4 when it comes to lube, loading 28 rounds in USGI mags, and how to properly use an ACOG.
-Training: Train to use the M4 out to 600m, you'll need it
-M9: was useless for us, we had 2 in our platoon and spent most of the deployment locked up in tri-cons, just one more piece of SI to get lost
- Crew served: SAW ended up being a reliable and accurate weapon, just weighs too friggin' much (at least compared to a PKM), loved it with a short barrel and ACOG. M240 was amazing, ALWAYS worked.
M2 .50 was great but a bit worn out as they had been only replacing parts when they broke, and since mine was from WW2 it seems like something was always going. MK19's we had were cursed and always seemed to be down.
AMMO WAS A PROBLEM TO GET SOMETIMES! I actually had to beg and steal SAW ammo and never seemed to have enough. MK19 rounds were in such short supply one of our platoons used up thier whole supply in a TIC and were given TPT rounds as there was no more HEDP to be had. 9mm was rare too, thank god we never really used M9s. No shit. Regular 5.56, belted 7.62, and 203 40mm HEDP/Lume rounds were common, and the .50 supply was ok but a little short on API so part of our load was regular ball. Only had a few 203 smoke rounds and they were all green. Had a few SMAW-Ds and no AT-4s / LAWs.
Oh, and First Strike meals rocked, much smaller / lighter than MRE's and were great on mountain air assaults, esp the ability to eat them on the go with no prep. Of course they were almost impossible to get... good times...
I'On a nontechnical end, things like giving company commanders access to small cash funds to make various improvements and get locals employed - absolutely cost effective use of resources, and bang for buck in a COIN environment.
Our PMT had different monthly pots to draw from for our own needs and the needs of our mentored substations; was there another type of funding you had in mind?
1371USMCFL
04-15-11, 02:57
On a nontechnical end, things like giving company commanders access to small cash funds to make various improvements and get locals employed - absolutely cost effective use of resources, and bang for buck in a COIN environment. I mentioned this to Gen. Petraeus, got a very positive response, but it's something that just needs more work on it, and not be yet another of those critical policy decisions that gets lost, muddled, mismanaged, misinterpreted, and inaccurately regurgitated by the middle brass.
They were doing that while I was there this past time, in fact they spent an ungodly amount on COIN shit. Having local well diggers dig put it wells for the locals and what not. CAG had pretty deep pockets it seemed.
Back to the thread, as far as personal gear, I used my own surefire scout light, p-mags, and used a tactical link conversion sling system. All of which I would highly recommend.
Biggest advice is 1) Train yourself on the weapons system you use. Before my second deployment, I watch the Magpul videos all the time during my down time in the barracks and while I was home on leave I'd do drills like it was cool. It ended up paying off when we were in a firefight and my rifle started giving me shit. 2) Wear as little extra shit as needed. Plates, ammo, and water weigh enough, but if you have to run from building to building while advancing, that extra crap you have attached to you is only going to slow you down.
Was OEF
Str8Jacket722
04-22-11, 09:32
I was in the AFG in 09, part of the MEB. to be honest, the M16/M4 worried me in the "light as chalk"dust out there, and for good reason, no matter how much lube you used on the bcg, you would always end up ripping the thing apart and cleaning it almost on an hourly basis despite the ejection port cover being closed, we both know that on a patrol, this just ain't gonna happen. Light lube caused jams, Lotsa lube caused jams. there seemed to be no way around it, especially when the "wind of 120 days" hit, you and your weapon looked like you were dusted with yellow powdered sugar. Personally, I'd like to see true, honest to goodness dust cuts made into the bolt rails and bolt. this might lessen the likelihood of having to mortar the rifle in an untenable situation. MHO.
I have a quick response to this thread. I feel the Army is getting too soft to agree with you all on the whole. I feel the soldiers would rather complain about having to wipe their weapon down or to take the time to pull security. I feel that the Higher leadership is cutting the legs out of most NCOs. I understand that to the higher in the big picture the Army is over strength. However all an NCO can do nowadays is put the shortcomings of his soldier on paper. Which either leads to nothing or what I feel is too harsh of a punishment for most simple infractions. What happened to the days of corrective training. They are being replaced by the political officers who have never had to keep their head down and eyes up. I feel that to be a commander and policy maker in the ARMED Forces you should be vetted by at least some combat experience. Also most of the Equipment being tested goes through the Aberdeen Proving grounds where privates directly out of basic training test these things. If the ACU uniform pattern doesn't prove my point I'm sure I can go on for Hrs. Take us back to the days of Combat Leaders and people who took their jobs seriously.
Edit My credibilty
E-5 Hqs PSG Thats of a Sniper and Mortar Section
Former Sniper Team Leader
Former Scout Observer/ Team leader
CIB/RISTA/Airborne/B4 Qualified
1 BDE 82nd Airborne Div
5 yrs service
USMC8531RET
05-23-11, 19:52
M9 Pistol is worthless with M882 Ball. Solution: M1911A1 with M1911 Ball. Upgrade the sights and install amb. safety. Double action is over-rated. .45 ACP is not.
M9 Pistol is worthless with M882 Ball. Solution: M1911A1 with M1911 Ball. Upgrade the sights and install amb. safety. Double action is over-rated. .45 ACP is not.
It's my understanding that FN will make the next US service pistol and it will be 45 ACP caliber.
kaltesherz
05-30-11, 11:54
It's my understanding that FN will make the next US service pistol and it will be 45 ACP caliber.
Based on what?
Magic_Salad0892
05-31-11, 22:05
It's my understanding that FN will make the next US service pistol and it will be 45 ACP caliber.
Where did you hear of this? If so, it's retarded, but better than what we have now.
Where did you hear of this? If so, it's retarded, but better than what we have now.
Retarded ?. My good friend whom does gov't contract small arms repair/rebuild to factory spec has handled and worked on the various pistols submitted to replace the 9mm M9 junker. The FN was far ahead of the pack and all pistols submitted were 45 caliber. FN is in the top three along with Springfield and Glock. There are about a dozen competing. All are 45s. Any of this on the ongoing trials is available on the dang web. The latest report the DOD did on wound ballistics killed the 9mm's future as a military round.
Now that being said it would not surprise me in these economic times with our fearless golfer in chief that the whole thing may get canned and our troops will be stuck with the wop wondernine.
kaltesherz
06-04-11, 14:45
Retarded ?. My good friend whom does gov't contract small arms repair/rebuild to factory spec has handled and worked on the various pistols submitted to replace the 9mm M9 junker. The FN was far ahead of the pack and all pistols submitted were 45 caliber. FN is in the top three along with Springfield and Glock. There are about a dozen competing. All are 45s. Any of this on the ongoing trials is available on the dang web. The latest report the DOD did on wound ballistics killed the 9mm's future as a military round.
Now that being said it would not surprise me in these economic times with our fearless golfer in chief that the whole thing may get canned and our troops will be stuck with the wop wondernine.
Can you provide a link that isn't just a bunch of random people speculating? I also have a hard time seeing Uncle Sam issuing a pistol to regular Joes that doesn't have an active safety.
Combat_Diver
06-06-11, 06:16
Can you provide a link that isn't just a bunch of random people speculating? I also have a hard time seeing Uncle Sam issuing a pistol to regular Joes that doesn't have an active safety.
The M11 (SIG 228) doesn't have that active safety. Neither did the other top M9 competior the SIG 226.
CD
kaltesherz
06-06-11, 10:24
The M11 (SIG 228) doesn't have that active safety. Neither did the other top M9 competior the SIG 226.
CD
Very true, you think I'd remember that. I guess I'll rephrase that to I have a hard time seeing Uncle Same issuing a pistol with a 4.5 lb trigger and no active safety to regular Joes. Not like the Big Army already doesn't make everyone with a sidearm carry in cond orange, i.e. loaded mag with empty chamber...
We've been hearing that they're going to replace the M9 with a .45 for years, yet I've never seen any real proof that it's going to happen other than the Joint Combat Pistol which was killed long ago. Given today's budget issues, a new military-wide pistol in a much more expensive caliber, after buying mags, holsters, mag pouches, replacement parts... yeah...
Wait, aren't we talking about OEF/OIF? **** I got sidetracked, my bad
Magic_Salad0892
06-09-11, 07:42
Retarded ?. My good friend whom does gov't contract small arms repair/rebuild to factory spec has handled and worked on the various pistols submitted to replace the 9mm M9 junker. The FN was far ahead of the pack and all pistols submitted were 45 caliber. FN is in the top three along with Springfield and Glock. There are about a dozen competing. All are 45s. Any of this on the ongoing trials is available on the dang web. The latest report the DOD did on wound ballistics killed the 9mm's future as a military round.
Now that being said it would not surprise me in these economic times with our fearless golfer in chief that the whole thing may get canned and our troops will be stuck with the wop wondernine.
That's why it's retarded. Not because it's FNH, but because it's in .45.
.45, and 9x19mm Para do very similar terminal ballistics. Especially in FMJ format.
Oh, and if Springfield got in the top three then I definitely know the test is either
A.) ****ed up.
B.) A hoax.
C.) A marketing ploy.
D.) All of the above.
If HK doesn't win any military contract for .45 ACP pistols. Then I know the test is either faked, or rigged.
Why? Because HK designs their guns around military contracts, and we've already adopted HK pistols in small numbers among SF units. I have a hard time imagining the FNX, or XD, or even Glock (my favorite) to be a better service pistol than the HK 45, in that caliber.
In 9x19mm however.. I have a hard time seeing them not choosing Glock or SIG.
This is all speculation of course...
M9 Pistol is worthless with M882 Ball. Solution: M1911A1 with M1911 Ball. Upgrade the sights and install amb. safety. Double action is over-rated. .45 ACP is not.
You know the guy I shot in Iraq with my M9 didn't seem to feel that way.
USMC8531RET
06-10-11, 07:20
Well shot placement is everything. Sounds like you made a good shot.
LiveFreeOrDie2111
06-11-11, 09:06
All the high speed gear in the world isn't worth a damn unless you have a team of men who train with it until they can do tac reloads in their sleep and are properly supervised by experienced NCOs. With that said, the best rec I can give is get rid of the direct imp gas system on our M4/M16s. Look into creating a mod and installing a simple piston system such as Adam's Arms. The benefits are clear to anyone who has used one, the time spent maintaining and cleaning them (both on the support and operator levels) would be greatly reduced. They extend barrel life, enhance reliability, and are simple to install. There is NOTHING WRONG with the M4 system, this would only enhance it's lethality and reliability. The main issue that I have seen across the board is troops not taking care of their weapon, prev maint. is easy to do and takes about 10 min a day. Hence the reason I mentioned supervision before any suggestions to change the gear....
Littlelebowski
06-11-11, 11:40
You gotta be shitting me, LiveFree You ask this question (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=82816) and turn around and ****ing recommend piston conversions for the troops? So do you know what you're talking about or not?
Also, I really hope you rate what you put on your avatar. I haven't met many dual cool armorers.
RogerinTPA
06-11-11, 12:20
All the high speed gear in the world isn't worth a damn unless you have a team of men who train with it until they can do tac reloads in their sleep and are properly supervised by experienced NCOs. With that said, the best rec I can give is get rid of the direct imp gas system on our M4/M16s. Look into creating a mod and installing a simple piston system such as Adam's Arms. The benefits are clear to anyone who has used one, the time spent maintaining and cleaning them (both on the support and operator levels) would be greatly reduced. They extend barrel life, enhance reliability, and are simple to install. There is NOTHING WRONG with the M4 system, this would only enhance it's lethality and reliability. The main issue that I have seen across the board is troops not taking care of their weapon, prev maint. is easy to do and takes about 10 min a day. Hence the reason I mentioned supervision before any suggestions to change the gear....
Wow...This statement screams ignorance at the top of your lungs.:bad:
LiveFreeOrDie2111
06-11-11, 12:24
If you consider a chest device cool, very well. I started out as an armorer, carried the MOS as a secondary just not as active in the community, I re enlisted back in 06 took the indoc and spent the next four year in 1st Recon where, yes I did earn the wings and bubble. I posted that question out of complete randomness, I've been trying to get access to the EE on here, sent an email to the administrator who said I needed to post 30 random posts before access would open. So, I sat here last night typing random questions that would have easy answers, woke up this morning and saw the above post, a figured I'd add my two cents. After all isn't that what an open forum is about? Honestly this entire website is still a bit confusing to me the way it's setup, I'm not a very computer savvy person.
If you consider a chest device cool, very well. I started out as an armorer, carried the MOS as a secondary just not as active in the community, I re enlisted back in 06 took the indoc and spent the next four year in 1st Recon where, yes I did earn the wings and bubble. I posted that question out of complete randomness, I've been trying to get access to the EE on here, sent an email to the administrator who said I needed to post 30 random posts before access would open. So, I sat here last night typing random questions that would have easy answers, woke up this morning and saw the above post, a figured I'd add my two cents. After all isn't that what an open forum is about? Honestly this entire website is still a bit confusing to me the way it's setup, I'm not a very computer savvy person.
Having a wicked sense of humor, I now notice your post count has regressed to 29.
Admitting that you are just inflating your post count to get on EE is one of those "bad things to do" on the internet forum.
Failure2Stop
06-11-11, 22:22
Keep it on topic.
Pretty please.
Until this thread diverted focus, I was really digging it. Thanks to all the guys with experience who have passed on valuable lessons. I will put a lot of it to use.
Ive been lucky/unlucky enough to deploy mulitple times to both AFG and Iraq. Here are some things I've learned in my 20+ years in the army.
1. The army is a job, and as such some times you must buy your own gear and supplies. (Cleaning kits, pouches, lights you name it).
Keep in mind some commands will not allow soldiers to use anything but US issue stuff.
2. The M4 works, mine I keep relatively clean but I lube it well with slip-2000 see #1 above. Big army is stuck with whatever round they get fact so dont armchair with well if they did that and that. You will get whatever bullet type the supply guy finds and puts on a pallet for you.
3. All battery operated sights will fail at some time, pick one that you like and are good with and use it. I have the option of three different type of sights and I stick with the Eo-tech.
4. The military issues pistols as secondary weapons and to those people who are not designated as needing a rifle. The main issue is with the mags see #1 above. It is all about shot placesment. Big Army has rules in place for what kind of service pistol it issues and we are a member of NATO so we kinda have to allow for commonality of ammo there.
5. Kit, whatever you get issued is it. The higher NCO's and COC do not like people to have there own body armor, thats just the way it is. Find a system/configuration that works for you and practice with it, in the dark, light and such.
6. Troops dont need a huge med pouch like the IFAC its to big. Tone it down to a tourniquet (exposed for all to see) and an isreali dressing, kerlex and a cpl of 3 inch 14guage catheters and x2 of whatever chest seals you are issued. The main troops aim is to plug the holes, open the mouth and stop the red stuff from coming out. Anything over that is adanced care that a medic shoud do so the troop can shoot back.
7. Dont overload your kit with needless crap. If you cant walk at least 12 k with your kit on and still be combat effective then its got to much crap on or you are outa shape.
8. Fitness- keep combat fit, you should be able to IMT, carry a buddy, run and jump and still be able to fight after doing that.
9. Dont bitch and moan about the conditions and that it sucks, it does and it always will get over it. Yes the people at the main bases have no idea what its like outside the wire. It has been that way ever since war began and it always will.
10. NOD's are ok, but we are now limited to the amount of stuff we can do at night just remember that in training.
11. Heavy weapon training is a must load, fire, clear and reduce stoppages.
12. DA hits are for the sexy people, get over it and deal with it. Now most units work with a partner force and they go in first, we dont like it but thats how it is.
Long post but ive been doing this along time. Those are just some observations.
Forgot to mention just in case anyone was wondering that I'm not one of REMF I'm out in the hinterlands.
Half of the guys with M14s didn't even know how to disassemble them. That's a failure as far as I'm concerned. With how much time we get preached at and told "you're an infantryman, hooah? you need to know everything about your weapon, hooah?" they just hand people rifles and tell them to go.
True enough. One reason why I collected every bit of M14 instructional material I could find when I heard we were deploying again.
Too many people are not given trigger time on crew served because when everyone is sitting back in CONUS we hear "that Soldier wont need that"...then they get tossed on convoys during their tour. Yeah, they need *that*, whatever *that* is. Peoples jobs in-theatre can change 2-3 times over the course of a tour. Mine did.
A lot of good info out here in this thread.
I will keep my points to suggestions that can be influenced at an element beyond unit level. In my eyes a lot of complaints and suggestions found in this thread stems to a BDE, BN and below issue.
With that said:
Optics. All three major optics that are issued are good optics, ACOG, CCO, Eotech. With that, I know the Army is trying to transition to a "CWO" or some random acronym but it's essentially an ACOG w/ a Dr. Optic. This in my mind is a great idea. Tragically, my unit couldn't get those mini-red dots but we tried. Here in Afghanistan, I can get out of a vehicle and have a threat present it self at 50m and below very quickly and seconds later receive SAF from 300+ meters on a hilltop. The ability to transition to non-magnified to magnified gives the shooter a huge advantage. With that the Army needs to give the warfighter quick detach capabilities on all of their optics. Think Larue here. We have irons on our weapons, but ACOGs on top that prevent the buis from even being fully erect. With that, you either have it tied down or twist cabled down and now if the optic goes down you can't use it, nor can you use your irons.
The ARMY not the BDE, BN or Company needs to procure better mounts for optics and create a standard tie down point that all optics can utilize w/ all mounts.
If the Dr. Optic ACOG combo doesnt work and the Army want's to not have excess Eotechs and CCO's they could acquire the 3x magnifiers made by both companies. Both work great, with a flip to side mount, these things are awesome. I run one on my rifle right now. My Eotech is zeroed and confirmed out to 400m. Throw the magnifier in front and I'm even more deadly.
Other items that I've seen recently which have helped the overall Soldier is the grip-pod. While I hate it in the DFAC to hear the bi-pod legs flip out; it does allow a shooter a more stable platform. It's not for everyone but it works as advertised.
Magazines. The GI-mags with yellow followers are great. I have yet to have a failure to feed. PMAG's are also great. But I prefer the export pmags because they are smoother. The ridges on the original pmags, with the lips on the bottom create an issue when stacking mags in kit. I prefer GI or export pmags for that reason.
I've got a lot more so if the author of this thread want's any info just PM me.
Make sure if you're running a dump pouch that it is somewhere on your kit that is accessible in the prone.
Two point slings are a must when you have to walk, run or climb with both hands occupied.
PMAGs work better than GI mags when dirty, but make sure the cherries perform regular maintenance on both so you don't end up like this:
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/7877/18394813696621565631081.jpg
Hello All,
My info might be a little outdated, I served 02-07 with three combat deployments: one OEF, one OIF, and one MEUSOC with an infantry battalion. I also worked in the armory primarily as an optics tech, but got outside the wire a lot for convoys with CAG and maintenance trains. Caution: some of my views may differ from most here...
Some things I learned:
- Keep your gear clean. clean your mags periodically, hell, even running a dust rag through them kept them running fine. clean your weapon really quick after each patrol, keep it lubed.
- ACOGs are awesome, if they train everyone how to use them properly. A few of us got a two day course on using them and we were able to consistently hit out to 500 in the prone with them. Then we were supposed to train the whole battalion on using them....bad idea. Kind of like whisper down the lane. Everyone needs the class, not just a few.
- ACOGS should be mounted on the carrying handle with the nut, not the rail. Everyone wanted to mount it to the flat top and have a backup sight, but the best way to use it was on the handle using the native sights through the little hole underneath.....less parts, less to go wrong.
- green followers in magazines suck, hopefully they have changed them to the tan or gray followers
- More M4s, or better at assigning them....there just weren't enough for everyone in the battalion. everyone wanted one, but the people who needed them most got shafted(read: drivers, platoons, radiomen, field corpsmen)
- I ditched the issued sling for a single point sling with a QD.
- While I despise grip pods, they actually served their purpose for those that wanted to get a little of both worlds without having to add extra weight. Just wish they were more durable, we went through them like candy.
I could go on forever, what type of things can I touch on to be more relevant?
William B.
07-02-11, 15:18
- ACOGS should be mounted on the carrying handle with the nut, not the rail. Everyone wanted to mount it to the flat top and have a backup sight, but the best way to use it was on the handle using the native sights through the little hole underneath.....less parts, less to go wrong.
It's impossible for me to get proper cheek weld with the optic mounted that high. I also think that you will have a similar amount of parts either way. Whether you mount it on the rail or on the handle, each one acts as an optic mount. Try running it on the rail with a rear BUIS. On another note that you mentioned, though: they do seem to be getting better about training Marines as to how to properly employ the ACOG. Welcome to the forum!
I just disagree, which is okay. It is good to have many perspectives.
I know it is higher. But when you use the acog, while I could pling at 500 in the prone, you won't use it like that in reality....at least we didn't. Anything out to that range our companies had SAM-Rs.
Mainly it was used within 200 yards for fire fights, with the BDC mainly used to range. By having it on the handle you don't have to squeeze into your cheek weld but can keep your head slightly canted with both eyes open. Using this method is efficient for quick target acquisition and is just better ergonomics. Then if the ACOG fails for any reason, one just needs to use a tight cheek weld and look through the peep hole and use iron sights, all without moving the ACOG or distorting the picture.
Just takes a little more training is all.
And you are technically right that the hardware is the same if used with the newer M16A4, which has a flat top and a carrying handle mount with two nuts.
If we just consider the ACOG it is less hardware; one nut on the carrying handle versus the screws to mount the rail adapter to the ACOG and two tightening nuts on the adapter to the rail... more moving parts, more can go wrong to the $1600+ optic.
Thanks for the welcome, I love this place already!
I just disagree, which is okay. It is good to have many perspectives.
I know it is higher. But when you use the acog, while I could pling at 500 in the prone, you won't use it like that in reality....at least we didn't. Anything out to that range our companies had SAM-Rs.
Mainly it was used within 200 yards for fire fights, with the BDC mainly used to range. By having it on the handle you don't have to squeeze into your cheek weld but can keep your head slightly canted with both eyes open. Using this method is efficient for quick target acquisition and is just better ergonomics. Then if the ACOG fails for any reason, one just needs to use a tight cheek weld and look through the peep hole and use iron sights, all without moving the ACOG or distorting the picture.
Just takes a little more training is all.
And you are technically right that the hardware is the same if used with the newer M16A4, which has a flat top and a carrying handle mount with two nuts.
If we just consider the ACOG it is less hardware; one nut on the carrying handle versus the screws to mount the rail adapter to the ACOG and two tightening nuts on the adapter to the rail... more moving parts, more can go wrong to the $1600+ optic.
Thanks for the welcome, I love this place already!
SAM-Rs have been out of service for quite awhile now, the Mk12 is being used for the same function in AFG and on MEU floats
We have started fielding Larue RCO mounts to replace the older TA-51 mount
Well that is a surprise, the SAM-Rs were good to go. It does look like the mk12 is pretty similar though...
The Larue mount looks good to go, how does it do with the iron sight? Do you have to remove the optic to use the BUIS or no?
The RCO has to come off to use the backups. Starting in late 07, early 08 all the new A4s and M4s came with MATECH instead of carrying handles. About a month ago the Marine Corps also standardized on a BUIS instead of the MATECH.
Although I like the Larue mount, there was nothing wrong with the TA51 outside of user error. What I saw the most was the armorers would remove them when they put them in the cage in the armory. When they were next drawn they would put them back on finger tight and no one knew to tighten them down per the TM. The RCO mount gets around this by not giving the option, it is either on or it isn't.
deadlyfire
07-10-11, 00:52
PM sent regarding 09-10 deployment.
Scuba22Steve
09-21-11, 06:01
This is my second deployment to Afghanistan. My first deployment could be considered a joke. All that we ran into was IED's. My second deployment they sent us to a hornets nest. I am still in Afghanistan and that being the case I will not say where I am or what unit I am in. I will say this.
In regards to the M4.
I know that there are many options out there that are field proven to be more reliable than the current direct impingement system we are using. I have been in more firefights than I can count, and I am also guilty of not cleaning my M4 everyday, or even every week for that matter. Much to the credit of this great gun, I have never had a malfunction of any kind. I would like to have suppressors as standard issue for every infantryman but that is just out of the cards with our current budget.
Optics.
The only units that deploy with M68's are supports units. Every Infantry unit that I have seen in sector has ACOG's. Granted I know that the occasional less fortunate National Guard unit has to make due with CCO's, I would say the majority of the ground pounders have ACOG's. I opted out of the ACOG for a personal optic. I put an EOTech EXPS3-1 w/3x Magnifier. I am still able to engage targets within the weapons effective ranges, but I feel much more comfortable with the speed of target acquisition during CQB. I do think that the EOTech and magnifier combination is something that the Army should look into.
Personal kit.
Everybody has their own preferences. I would say keep it simple, keep it tight, and keep it light. The people you see in the news walking around with 100 pouches hanging off their kit, and two leg rigs, looking like a jingle truck are NOT in the infantry. Carry only mission essential equipment. I have heard many schools of thought on how to set up a kit. That should always be left to the individual. All too often leadership takes it upon themselves to try and make their unit look uniformed. All this serves to do is make the individual soldier less comfortable with the equipment he has to use. I dont use anything that has been issued by the army, with the exception of the shirts. I believe that if I feel good I'll fight good.
Weapons Training.
I was able to do a Close range marksmanship training class prior to deployment. Though it was not the most thorough class I have ever taken it definitely opened the door to many different ideas and schools of thought. Most of which I have in turn passed down to my soldiers. The army needs to broaden its horizons as far as the marksmanship training is concerned. Stop the cookie cutter mold for marksmanship and just send the men to the range with as many rounds as they can use. I promise they will come away better shots than if you simply get them to shoot 40/40.
PMAG's.
Give them to every soldier. I am using the same Pmags this deployment as I did last deployment. They are beat to hell and still they manage to feed rounds without ever failing. The issued mags are hot garbage, and should be scrapped.
Sgt. Infantry, Squad leader, Afghanistan 11-12
Very good info indeed. From three deployments to Iraq all I can say is Brilliance in the basics pays off. Train as you fight, that butta butta jam crap is just that. Get your men used to being outside their comfort zone and able to adapt on their own to random challenges, above all keep your weapon clean and carry ammo in every pocket, anywhere you can.
Strelnikov
10-30-11, 22:35
Not sure if I have much input here as of now,
but I'm fresh outta OSUT (Infantry) and stationed at Ft. Lewis with the 5th brigade 2nd ID. and I can honestly say that i am 100% undertrained for our deployment...
That's just my $.02 on it as an infantryman straight outta basic.
That stinks man. I just got out of OSUT myself. I am in the guard and we are deploying to afghanistan next year. We have M4's with Aimpoints and as a unit, seem to be very well equipped. We have been told that we will be getting new M4's when we mobilize with ACOGs and the new 302 grenade launchers (I cannot verify if this is true, as you know, with the army nothing is really going to happen until it happens).
As far as training goes, you do not need to be running live fire react to contact or raid lanes to get good training (Though, during our 2 week AT we had a great 2 day exercise where we utilized an entire mountain valley to do live fire raids/react to contact/ambush exercises which involved live mortars and 40mm grenades). I have found that within my company, some platoons/squads/fire teams are better trained this others. That is because each team takes their training into their own hands. We do a lot of self training exercises, produce muscle memory, go over scenarios, do walk throughs. There is always down time during training, so we take advantage of it. Some teams don't, this is poor leadership (you get that in the guard a lot, guys just waiting to get out). But talk to your team leader, give some suggestions on things you feel you need training on (to appropriately approach a sergeant... "Sergeant, me and the joes are a little rusty on react to contact, could you run through it with us?"). Not as flashy as a live fire, but very effective. Also, just go ahead and run through stuff verbally with the other joes. This will be a double edged sword... you will gain in knowledge and skill... and your leadership will recognize positive leadership qualities in you (promotions!). I have been with my unit for 4 months and have already been sent to WLC. Taking ownership in you and your teams training is a great way to learn leadership and get recognized as a positive asset, not just another turd.
Best of luck on your deployment! If you can't put your faith in the equipment, put it in the men. The United States Military, regardless of equipment and circumstances, will always have it's men and women as the most powerful asset in the world. Remember that.
The Archangel
12-09-11, 11:24
I concur with the kit load out. When I was in OEF in 06, I carried 12 (HK) mags, frags, smoke, IFAK, CamelBak, (4) M9 Mags and I smoked the shit out of myself. Luckily we never received contact while on foot patrols (only when we were mounted).
I went light to OIF in 2010 (4 PMAGS on Kit, 2 PMAGS on Molle Belt and 4 M9 Mags). Getting ready to go back to OEF in March and I purchased the SKD PIG and plan on having the same set up that I did in Iraq. Can't stress having the TQ on the outside enough. I have one on the kit, horizontal (held by two black hair ties) and two additional TQ on top of the buttock on the mole belt.
As far as hydration, I have a small .75L Joey Pouch on the belt and a small 1.5L bladder on a 10" E&E pouch on the kit. Most of the water consumption will be from bottled water, but the H2O on my kit and belt are for foot patrols / emergency.
My Molle belt has 1st line gear for E&E if for some reason I need to ditch the kit. It contains 2 PMAGS & 2 M9 Mags in Eagle Industries FB Mag Pouches / Buttpack with Pressure Dressing, (2) 14g a Decomp Needles, (2) TQ on top of BP, Various protein from broken down MREs (Peanut Butter, etc..), Leatherman, compass, .75L Joey Bladder and IR Strobe.
Personally bought "war belts" are golden. If you rig it right they can even help support the weight of your plate carrier, which really is a money maker when you're wearing armor for several days straight.
This is my second deployment to Afghanistan. My first deployment could be considered a joke. All that we ran into was IED's. My second deployment they sent us to a hornets nest. I am still in Afghanistan and that being the case I will not say where I am or what unit I am in. I will say this.
In regards to the M4.
I know that there are many options out there that are field proven to be more reliable than the current direct impingement system we are using. I have been in more firefights than I can count, and I am also guilty of not cleaning my M4 everyday, or even every week for that matter. Much to the credit of this great gun, I have never had a malfunction of any kind. I would like to have suppressors as standard issue for every infantryman but that is just out of the cards with our current budget.
Optics.
The only units that deploy with M68's are supports units. Every Infantry unit that I have seen in sector has ACOG's. Granted I know that the occasional less fortunate National Guard unit has to make due with CCO's, I would say the majority of the ground pounders have ACOG's. I opted out of the ACOG for a personal optic. I put an EOTech EXPS3-1 w/3x Magnifier. I am still able to engage targets within the weapons effective ranges, but I feel much more comfortable with the speed of target acquisition during CQB. I do think that the EOTech and magnifier combination is something that the Army should look into.
Weapons Training.
I was able to do a Close range marksmanship training class prior to deployment. Though it was not the most thorough class I have ever taken it definitely opened the door to many different ideas and schools of thought. Most of which I have in turn passed down to my soldiers. The army needs to broaden its horizons as far as the marksmanship training is concerned. Stop the cookie cutter mold for marksmanship and just send the men to the range with as many rounds as they can use. I promise they will come away better shots than if you simply get them to shoot 40/40.
Every guy is getting an ACOG now?
I concur on the marksmanship training.
Two deployments to iraq have tought me take care of your weapon and it will take care of you. I have been in four years on the line and keeping my weapon clean resulted in not a single malfunction. While deployed I would wipe down my weapon every day and every 3-4 days a good phase 3 then once a month a solid break down of everything including the trigger essembly and thoroughly clean it. Keep it lubed as well and it will never let you down. Keep everything properly tied down as well. The only thing you need to clean your weapon with is a barbers brush, soft and hard nylon brush, dental pick, a hoppes boresnake and some clp. I can clean every inch of a m4, 249, 240, and 50 with those simple items. Get some graphite lube for the belt fed weapons as well.
When it comes to weapon accessories a good foregrip was a great thing to have. Slings are whatever fits the user best. As long as he can properly manipulate his weapon for any drills and training. A good magpul stock is a nice thing to have as well. Much more comfortable than the one that comes with the m4. Our 249s had the collapsable stock but those are heavy. Most people don't know you can put a stock for an m4 on it and cut some weight.
We had aimpoint ccos and acogs. I like both optics a lot. They can take a beating and you can still rely on them when the shtf. Our 249s & 240s had 145s and I hated those damn things. Too heavy and bulky. I would rather them have eotechs, atleast the 249s and kept the pigs with the 145.
Issue gear was just garbage. Uncomfortable and made it a pain in the ass to set up your kit in a way that makes any damn sense. RFI kits were meant for rifleman so that left our gunners shit out of luck. When I was a saw gunner I had to scramble together pouches and "nutsacks" to set my kit up. I was constantly changing it around as it was so uncomfortable. I dropped the 200 round pouches and drums and used all 100 round ones. Was easier to distribute the weight and 100 sacks were easier to draw and load than the 200 were. Also much easier to manipulate the weapon in mout scenerios. As a rifleman I bought my own kit and set it up to fit all missions. If I drove I could take it off but keep it in reach if I ever needed to don it. As a gunner I could have it off and slung on the gunners door for easy access and be able to don it if needed but drivers and gunners didn't dismount but shit does happen. For dismount I had a duty belt with a dump pouch which I believe they should issue. If shit hits the fan there isn't time when changing mags to stuff the empty one back in its pouch. Issue boots are also junk. I stuck with blackhawk boots and they lasted one and a half deployments. After that I got rocky c4s and those were great but either of those boots wouldn't last in the stan.
Combat shirts were a great addition until you saw fat ass pogs wearing them around the fob when we spent our small amount of time there until we went back to our patrol base. Issue helmet pads sucked as well, they gave me headches from hell no matter how I had them positioned. So I bought some skydex pads and never looked back. Don't get me started on the iotv, I could start a whole thread on that pos.
I had a good pltsgt so we were always training in garrison and deployed. Glass houses, using the barracks to train on stairway formations. We also used the pillars in the barracks to run weapon transition drills. We used our pt field to run through different battle drills. We also had battle drills for mounted ops. We'd go out to the field and do land nav quite a bit as well. When we could we would ruck to mout sites and train there as well as shoot houses. It wasn't often but it helped. I am in 1st cav so getting good ranges was far and few inbetween. We would get a lot of trigger time in as well. Doing dry fire and ready up drills before reflexive fire ranges. While deployed at our patrol base we built a mout house out of hescos and would train daily in it. When we stayed at a jss the iraqis had a mout village built out of conexes and we would go do full scale mout ops on it with vehicles and everything. I hated it and loved it at the same time but now that I look back after reading some of what others unit did I am glad my pltsgt was ocd about things as he was. I never felt I wasn't trained adequetly for the mission. Shit we even trained on combat "clits" and orps for afghanistan.
Shit we even trained on combat "clits" and orps for afghanistan.
I've got to ask, what is a "combat clit?" Do you mean CLP (Combat Logistics Patrol)? :blink:
Well my .02 cent worth. What I have learned from the sandbox...
We need to go from 5.56 to 6.8 SPC..
And I couldn't tell my guys enough to CLEAN and LUBRICATE, then do it again...
Cut the amount of gear carried DOWN, 95+ pounds of gear is stupid....
I've got to ask, what is a "combat clit?" Do you mean CLP (Combat Logistics Patrol)? :blink:
Umm no. It is a type of formarion that looks like ( l )
One of our squadleaders was tought it at ranger school. There is a technical name for it but I don't remember.
Umm no. It is a type of formarion that looks like ( l )
One of our squadleaders was tought it at ranger school. There is a technical name for it but I don't remember.
Also called a Ranger File.
The biggest thing that I've taught my Soldiers is to make everything happen in the 'workspace' as I've learned. (Magpul DVD + video taping myself + lots of rounds = not as good as getting to a class, but something is better than nothing.) Changing this ONE thing has really opened my Soldiers' eyes to their world.
Again, it's getting the Soldiers out of their comfort zone.
We had a compressed training timeline, so that made the priority of my Company shift from the tactical side to the technical side (I'm a CSS Commander.... Loggie is the term used most often). Everyone wants to hone their abilities to get a load of supplies from here to there, or to fix a truck, or to track a shipment of stuff. The tactical side shifts to the back burner.
The part that's difficult is that when a CSS Soldier needs to use their carbine, the poop has probably REALLY hit the fan. Their need to manipulate the gun becomes the most important thing that they've ever done in their entire life.
This will be my 3rd trip to the 'Stan, in addition to 17 months spent in Iraq.
Also called a Ranger File.
No that is something completely different..
This will be my 3rd trip to the 'Stan, in addition to 17 months spent in Iraq.
Stay sharp and good luck.
No that is something completely different..Can you describe it?
Stay sharp and good luck.
Can you describe it?
A ranger file is just that a file. This formation is (l) <--- parantheses included. It's not a moving formation. We rarely used it so I don't remember much about it.
Which way is the direction of travel. Maybe that's my confusion. I guess that would remind me of a "quick cigar shaped 360" but thats probably not it either.
Which way is the direction of travel. Maybe that's my confusion. I guess that would remind me of a "quick cigar shaped 360" but thats probably not it either.
I think that is the other name for it but I am not sure. I am at a loss for any memory of the name. Been looking through old notes can't find anything.
I think that is the other name for it but I am not sure. I am at a loss for any memory of the name. Been looking through old notes can't find anything.
A tight 360 with leadership on the inside?
Another shot in the dark- hasty 360?
To those of you in our Armed Forces, I would like would like to thank you for the experiences you have related here and your service to our undeserving country. You, however, deserve better.
I always lubed my baby up with http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTyar01gKb8a2kjfWHoJR8Vajo-uTz0Idf0x3mb_kIRXZ5yehBdxxIrQz3vQ works wonders.
I always lubed my baby up with http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTyar01gKb8a2kjfWHoJR8Vajo-uTz0Idf0x3mb_kIRXZ5yehBdxxIrQz3vQ works wonders.
I prefer Valentina:D
As to the topic, as far as weapons stuff goes...
-White glove clean doesn't mean shit. Your cleaning kit should not contain metal scraping devices, brillo pads, etc. Stay lubed with something that isn't CLP, like Slip 2000 EWL.
-Mags are very disposable. Inspect and toss away when bad. If you're not sure, then toss it.
- All optics should have quick release w/ properly zeroed irons. Aside from failure and all.... Removing the optic in a pinch is much faster than trying to get mud or rain off the lenses.
-Keep a rough round count on your gun, replace springs and parts before something breaks. Having the trigger spring in your m4 go out during contact sure does suck. If you're not sure of the round count, go ahead and replace springs. Cheap insurance.
-Many armorers suck, learn about the gun from a reputable source, and listen to them.
-Spare batteries for everything.
-Two point slings rule over anything else for real world use.
-Muzzle caps are your friend.
-If possible, keep a multi tool and some type of rod available for field jerry rigs and knocking stuck brass/squibs out.
- Loc tite just about anything with a screw. Use a paint pen to mark a line, and inspect them as part of your maintenance routine. Having an optic or light work loose on mission also sucks.
Hello All,
My info might be a little outdated, I served 02-07 with three combat deployments: one OEF, one OIF, and one MEUSOC with an infantry battalion. I also worked in the armory primarily as an optics tech, but got outside the wire a lot for convoys with CAG and maintenance trains. Caution: some of my views may differ from most here...
Some things I learned:
- Keep your gear clean. clean your mags periodically, hell, even running a dust rag through them kept them running fine. clean your weapon really quick after each patrol, keep it lubed.
- ACOGs are awesome, if they train everyone how to use them properly. A few of us got a two day course on using them and we were able to consistently hit out to 500 in the prone with them. Then we were supposed to train the whole battalion on using them....bad idea. Kind of like whisper down the lane. Everyone needs the class, not just a few.
- ACOGS should be mounted on the carrying handle with the nut, not the rail. Everyone wanted to mount it to the flat top and have a backup sight, but the best way to use it was on the handle using the native sights through the little hole underneath.....less parts, less to go wrong.
- green followers in magazines suck, hopefully they have changed them to the tan or gray followers
- More M4s, or better at assigning them....there just weren't enough for everyone in the battalion. everyone wanted one, but the people who needed them most got shafted(read: drivers, platoons, radiomen, field corpsmen)
- I ditched the issued sling for a single point sling with a QD.
- While I despise grip pods, they actually served their purpose for those that wanted to get a little of both worlds without having to add extra weight. Just wish they were more durable, we went through them like candy.
I could go on forever, what type of things can I touch on to be more relevant?
This is how I run my ACOG now, for stand up, run and gun engagements I like it much better - it just seems faster. It also adds some sense of comfort knowing that I can still use my Irons without removing anything. I wish I had known you could do that in 04.
HawaiianM4
06-04-12, 02:07
Hello All,
My info might be a little outdated, I served 02-07 with three combat deployments: one OEF, one OIF, and one MEUSOC with an infantry battalion. I also worked in the armory primarily as an optics tech, but got outside the wire a lot for convoys with CAG and maintenance trains. Caution: some of my views may differ from most here...
Some things I learned:
- Keep your gear clean. clean your mags periodically, hell, even running a dust rag through them kept them running fine. clean your weapon really quick after each patrol, keep it lubed.
- ACOGs are awesome, if they train everyone how to use them properly. A few of us got a two day course on using them and we were able to consistently hit out to 500 in the prone with them. Then we were supposed to train the whole battalion on using them....bad idea. Kind of like whisper down the lane. Everyone needs the class, not just a few.
- ACOGS should be mounted on the carrying handle with the nut, not the rail. Everyone wanted to mount it to the flat top and have a backup sight, but the best way to use it was on the handle using the native sights through the little hole underneath.....less parts, less to go wrong.
- green followers in magazines suck, hopefully they have changed them to the tan or gray followers
- More M4s, or better at assigning them....there just weren't enough for everyone in the battalion. everyone wanted one, but the people who needed them most got shafted(read: drivers, platoons, radiomen, field corpsmen)
- I ditched the issued sling for a single point sling with a QD.
- While I despise grip pods, they actually served their purpose for those that wanted to get a little of both worlds without having to add extra weight. Just wish they were more durable, we went through them like candy.
I could go on forever, what type of things can I touch on to be more relevant?
Good information on the ACOG. I like the ACOG for close and distance. I used the marine ACOG manual to learn how to use.
A ranger file is just that a file. This formation is (l) <--- parantheses included. It's not a moving formation. We rarely used it so I don't remember much about it.
Let's see if I can not f*** this up.
When I was at Ranger school it was a good way to take a short halt, the first squad stops in a file, |, 2nd squad files to the right and sort of "bows" out, ), and the third squad does the same on the left, (. Everybody faces out. (|). Weapons squad moves guns to front, rear, and a likely avenue of approach. Leaders make their way up and down the lines assigning sectors and quickly checking their guys before meeting in the middle to discuss whatever caused the halt.
Thus, you've got front and rear security (the first squad is facing forward and to the rear plus gun teams) and security to both sides.
It was also really good in Afghanistan for when you're patrolling the mountains and you crest a ridge, your dudes are smoked and need a minute to take a knee and drink water before pushing on. You can also use it as a sort of hasty patrol base with some quick modifications. I liked it because it was so simple that it required minimal training and you could do it when you hadn't slept for a couple days and were fueled by ripits and clif bars. There's so few moving pieces.
WhiteBear556
07-07-12, 13:31
I served in both theaters, USMC i carried the Trusty M-16A4 never had problems with it. Keep it clean and used militec, as far as stopping power we were issued Mk262 with performed very well. I really liked the sappi carriers as well much more agility with them. When it comes to knockdown power i really do not understand it too much on these forums. I have seen people get back up after 7.62 and 5.56, and have also seen one stop shots. It really is all about shot placement.
Peace
Let's see if I can not f*** this up.
When I was at Ranger school it was a good way to take a short halt, the first squad stops in a file, |, 2nd squad files to the right and sort of "bows" out, ), and the third squad does the same on the left, (. Everybody faces out. (|). Weapons squad moves guns to front, rear, and a likely avenue of approach. Leaders make their way up and down the lines assigning sectors and quickly checking their guys before meeting in the middle to discuss whatever caused the halt.
Thus, you've got front and rear security (the first squad is facing forward and to the rear plus gun teams) and security to both sides.
It was also really good in Afghanistan for when you're patrolling the mountains and you crest a ridge, your dudes are smoked and need a minute to take a knee and drink water before pushing on. You can also use it as a sort of hasty patrol base with some quick modifications. I liked it because it was so simple that it required minimal training and you could do it when you hadn't slept for a couple days and were fueled by ripits and clif bars. There's so few moving pieces.
You pretty much nailed it. We starting training on it quite often when one of our squad leaders came back from ranger school and we got another on deployment who came from rtb. That was exactly their thoughts, for use in afghan. Applies elsewhere as well.
A roll up of rifle set-ups currently being used; Defense Review
http://www.defensereview.com/tactical-ar-15m4m4a1-carbine-aftermarket-accessories-for-military-combat-applications-the-competition-to-combat-crossover/
BOOSTjunkie
07-15-12, 10:26
-Many armorers suck, learn about the gun from a reputable source, and listen to them.
this is very true... most armorers don't know jack about the weapons they issue out and have no idea about proper maintenance. by mtoe they also double as supply clerks so really their focus is elsewhere half the time anyways
this is very true... most armorers don't know jack about the weapons they issue out and have no idea about proper maintenance. by mtoe they also double as supply clerks so really their focus is elsewhere half the time anyways
I think I missed it, but exactly which branch are we talking about?
USMC they are dedicated armorers. You get idiots in any field, so you'll find them there as well but on the average you'll get a competent armorer. In my experience, if in an infantry battalion, they get a lot of hands-on time behind the weapons when they go out to the ranges with the companies. This really helps an armorer with practical knowledge about the weapon platform besides technical and maintenance data. More armorers need to do this...at any organizational level!
....now if we could only keep the grunts from performing unauthorized maintenance and breaking things because they thought the armorers were useless... :p
Magic_Salad0892
09-05-12, 20:47
How're you dudes getting G19s over there?
Combat_Diver
09-06-12, 08:19
How're you dudes getting G19s over there?
Only G19s in Iraq that I knew of belong to CAG or given to the Iraqi Police. Saw a few in Astan belong to OGAs/contractors, none in a US uniform.
CD
ffhounddog
09-06-12, 08:46
When I was training Iraqi's I rocked the Glock 19. Granted it was one of the extras floating around in case one broke. Still had to have the M9.
Found a Glock mag in one of my bags when I got back to Fort Polk from Iraq.
Magic_Salad0892
09-06-12, 17:28
So basically it's kind of a ''I found it, and started carrying it'' thing?
Devils in Baggy Pants
09-06-12, 19:07
On the subject of pistols I hope that the Army will eventually figure out that the M9 needs to replaced. I would like to see the Glock 21 SF take its place or a similar pistol that has a hi capacity .45 ACP platform.
Devils in Baggy Pants
09-06-12, 19:38
I recently learned a harsh lesson with the PMAG and the use of a speed loader. I used the BETA Company black plastic speed loader with my Magpull PMAGS and it was not a great outcome. I was in a tactical weapons course which required us to load our own magazines in a hasty manner. When I used the speed loader for the first iteration of the course, I had consistent double feeds and complete failure to feed issues from the magazines.
I wanted to confirm that the speed loader was the problem, so I used the speed loader in every other iteration and I hand loaded my magazines when the speed loader was not used. The outcome was consistent and in every iteration that the speed loader was used; I had double feeds and complete magazine failures. I tested this issue for two days consecutively and I will never again use the speed loader with my PMAGS. I think that all troopers should be tracking this issue and that this method of loading PMAGS is an absolute "no go".
I purchased the PMAGS because I had too many jams and problems with the standard propriety magazines during my last deployment.
The PMAGS work very well when they are hand loaded and this is the first time I have ever had issues with the Magpul magazines.
kaltesherz
09-07-12, 13:02
How're you dudes getting G19s over there?
The guys from AWG had G19s as issue as well as some SF types, my last SL carried one in Iraq when he was with 3/75. He said they were just passed on to the unit rotating in, like TPE (theater provided equipment).
The guys from AWG had G19s as issue as well as some SF types, my last SL carried one in Iraq when he was with 3/75. He said they were just passed on to the unit rotating in, like TPE (theater provided equipment).
We once got a shipping container that was supposed to contain 5,000 G19's for delivery to the Iraqi police. After doing inventory we found it was missing 3. That's probably where the unit hand-me-downs all come from. Accountability for delivered weapons was poor at best.
telecustom
09-07-12, 18:20
We had a lot of Glock 19s in Group. They were TPE to augment the M9s and 1911s. Every Soldier at the SOTF needed a pistol and the Glocks helped out a lot.
I recently learned a harsh lesson with the PMAG and the use of a speed loader. I used the BETA Company black plastic speed loader with my Magpull PMAGS and it was not a great outcome. I was in a tactical weapons course which required us to load our own magazines in a hasty manner. When I used the speed loader for the first iteration of the course, I had consistent double feeds and complete failure to feed issues from the magazines.
I wanted to confirm that the speed loader was the problem, so I used the speed loader in every other iteration and I hand loaded my magazines when the speed loader was not used. The outcome was consistent and in every iteration that the speed loader was used; I had double feeds and complete magazine failures. I tested this issue for two days consecutively and I will never again use the speed loader with my PMAGS. I think that all troopers should be tracking this issue and that this method of loading PMAGS is an absolute "no go".
I purchased the PMAGS because I had too many jams and problems with the standard propriety magazines during my last deployment.
The PMAGS work very well when they are hand loaded and this is the first time I have ever had issues with the Magpul magazines.
Have you tried using a Mag-Lula (http://www.maglula.com/RifleMagLoaders/LULARifleSMGMagazineLoaderUnloader.aspx) to load the magazines?
The PMAGS work very well when they are hand loaded and this is the first time I have ever had issues with the Magpul magazines.
Last week I had my first ever failure with a PMAG. I was using a 20rd PMAG on a Ft Hood range where your magazines are loaded by the civilians who run the range :rolleyes:. I believe they were loading from 10-round clips using speed loaders, and managed to get a round with the tip going down the wrong channel at the front of the magazine. This would have never happened if loaded by hand.
Last week I had my first ever failure with a PMAG. I was using a 20rd PMAG on a Ft Hood range where your magazines are loaded by the civilians who run the range :rolleyes:. I believe they were loading from 10-round clips using speed loaders, and managed to get a round with the tip going down the wrong channel at the front of the magazine. This would have never happened if loaded by hand.
Are you referring to uplula type speed loading devices or stripper clip/spoon loading or both?
They were using the GI spoon/stripper clip smash against a table method.
Will_Power
11-03-12, 17:17
Just want to extend my gratitude for the guys who have been willing to write and pass along their insights in this thread.
Magic_Salad0892
03-25-14, 12:03
Necropost time:
Why is this thread no longer a sticky? And does anybody care to add anything to it? I'm sure we have some members who have deployed, and returned in the last year, and a half.
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