View Full Version : Vista Outdoors ammo contract
From today's (18 Aug 22) DoD contract announcements:
"Vista Outdoor Sales LLC, Anoka, Minnesota, was awarded a $114,813,500 firm-fixed-price contract for the 5.56 mm Semi-Jacketed Frangible Cartridge, MK311 MOD 3 (AA40) ammunition. Bids were solicited via the internet with two received. Work locations and funding will be determined with each order, with an estimated completion date of Aug. 17, 2027. U.S. Army Contracting Command, Newark, New Jersey, is the contracting activity (W15QKN-22-D-0026)."
Vista apparently includes CCI, Federal, Remington, Speer, and Estate Cartridge. Wonder which division gets the government contracts?
https://www.defense.gov/News/Contracts/Contract/Article/3132888/
That must be a massive order, which is probably good, as this is training, not fighting ammo. More close quarter training is good, I think.
hotbiggun42
08-18-22, 19:55
Gotta train those accountants.
Gotta train those accountants.
Hopefully those accountants read better than you. US Army contract…..
Hopefully those accountants read better than you. US Army contract…..
You aren't "conspiracy" hard enough. Obviously the US Army is going to secretly train those accountants, probably going to SF at Bragg.
Straight Shooter
08-18-22, 21:25
I can & do understand the need for training ammo. Like in shoot houses, or up close on steel, just many different scenarios that that type of ammo is best used.
I cant understand, the training ammo that uses the same bullet at the same velocity as normal ammo.
Case in point- I got a couple boxes of the purple cased Winchester 62gr OT ammo & chrono'ed it last year.
Looking at my notes...5 rounds average velocity was 2845. What type of training would this particular round be for? Ive seen other rounds labeled as training that appeared to be full power with regular projectiles. Just curious about this.
I can & do understand the need for training ammo. Like in shoot houses, or up close on steel, just many different scenarios that that type of ammo is best used.
I cant understand, the training ammo that uses the same bullet at the same velocity as normal ammo.
Case in point- I got a couple boxes of the purple cased Winchester 62gr OT ammo & chrono'ed it last year.
Looking at my notes...5 rounds average velocity was 2845. What type of training would this particular round be for? Ive seen other rounds labeled as training that appeared to be full power with regular projectiles. Just curious about this.
Very useful for "immediate action first aid." Learn how to use those tourniquets and quick clot when somebody is running full power ammo on steel at CQB ranges.
Seriously, I think in your case it is being called "training" ammo vs. performance ammo so expectations of accuracy and consistency are adjusted.
Straight Shooter
08-18-22, 22:19
Very useful for "immediate action first aid." Learn how to use those tourniquets and quick clot when somebody is running full power ammo on steel at CQB ranges.
Seriously, I think in your case it is being called "training" ammo vs. performance ammo so expectations of accuracy and consistency are adjusted.
I dont know Steyr...I shot a couple five shot 100yard group with the purple stuff..all I had was I think 40 rounds?..that were very nice.
And the Extreme Spread was only 45fps.
Its the purple box that even has a large sticker on the box that says "FOR TRAINING PURPOSES ONLY". I just wonder what training scenarios it was designed for. Blindfolded, you couldnt tell it apart from 193 or 855.
I dont know Steyr...I shot a couple five shot 100yard group with the purple stuff..all I had was I think 40 rounds?..that were very nice.
And the Extreme Spread was only 45fps.
Its the purple box that even has a large sticker on the box that says "FOR TRAINING PURPOSES ONLY". I just wonder what training scenarios it was designed for. Blindfolded, you couldnt tell it apart from 193 or 855.
I still think it's a matter of "doesn't meet performance standards for duty use." Even that plastic German .308 ammo was remarkably accurate inside certain distances.
I believe the full power training ammo is ballistic similar, same point of aim, recoil etc. with a cheaper bullet. Why waste a bonded soft point on shooting paper or steel. My feeling has always been that even loaded with a cheaper HP it likely would be better than FMJ for serious use so when it was as cheap or cheaper than FMJ why not get some. To clarify I am talking about the Federal 62 grain HP's that was developed to mimic the XM556FBIT3 FBI load.
There have been several overlapping contracts for Mk311 in recent years. It's used a lot.
Lead free primer and bullet. One or both required in many facilities.
Decent substitute for 855 for most tasks. Initial/approx zero, trajectory is close enough. Indiscernible between typical shooters to medium distances.
Runs reliably semi/burst/auto in wylde and nato chambers.
Accuracy is pretty decent.
Occasional bullet tip may break off if repeatedly chambered or in stoppages.
Sometimes commercially available as seconds/non-specs.
Is frangible more of a fire hazard, I've never used it but I have heard it throws off a lot of sparks. I can remember hearing stories that during WWII/Korea retreating troops found it worked better than tracer for blowing up fuel depots, use AP or Ball to shoot a couple of holes in middle of a 55 gal drum to let some gas out then hit the top of the drum with frangible and boom.
Never knew that frangible ammo was around in WWII.
30-06 Green/White tip, they used it quite a lot for aerial gunnery training in case they shot the tow plane towing a target.
Frangible ammo used a bullet made of compressed bakelite and lead dust which would break up on impact with sheet metal of aircraft or vehicles, and could be used for practice against moving targets. These rounds may be listed as an authorized item for use with rifles such as the M1903 and M1, but in practice they were mainly used in machine guns.
Frangible Bullets in US-Airforce WWII
.30-06 Springfield
.50 BMG
232 P-63 "Kingcobra" where built as RP-63s, which were put to possibly the most unusual use of any production aircraft - flying targets. They were flown against B-17 and other bombers in what had to be the most realistic gunery training ever, because the gunners were able to fire directly at the RP-63 and hits could be seen. A light in the propeller hub would light when a hit was scored giving rise to the "Pinball". How was it done whithout recruiting suicidal pilots? The bullet was a frangible one, mixed of lead and graphite compound. The bullet colours are green-white.
So if it hit a two-legged, non-body armored target would it act like the old MagSafe or Glasers?
hotbiggun42
08-19-22, 07:57
Hopefully those accountants read better than you. US Army contract…..
Funny how US Army military gear makes its way through out the state, local and federal government.
Sometimes i wish i were more like you though!
Vista apparently includes CCI, Federal, Remington, Speer, and Estate Cartridge. Wonder which division gets the government contracts?
https://www.defense.gov/News/Contracts/Contract/Article/3132888/
My guess would be Federal since they previously had the contract in 2019.
https://www.federalpremium.com/news/awarded-mk311-mod3-delivery-order.html
My guess would be Federal since they previously had the contract in 2019.
https://www.federalpremium.com/news/awarded-mk311-mod3-delivery-order.html
So, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but Vista is the old Honeywell Defense or Alliance Tech Systems (ATK), which was the one who was supposed formally release the XM8. They have been partnered with Federal and then I believe bought Federal sometime later
That must be a massive order, which is probably good, as this is training, not fighting ammo. More close quarter training is good, I think.
I sure as shit wouldn't want to be shot with it.
I shot a bunch of it recently in training. It did what it was supposed to. A couple of us got lightly peppered with 9mm fragments, but the 5.56 was fine. It also didn’t **** up smaller target plates that I thought it would.
Mack7.62, thats some interesting history; thanks.
So if it hit a two-legged, non-body armored target would it act like the old MagSafe or Glasers?
No, more like an FMJ that fractures into 2-3 pieces. More relies upon a hard surface impact.
There are commercial equivalents-ish that some have tested and posted online, here's a product example: https://www.ammunitiondepot.com/winchester-ammo-usa556jf-usa-5-56mm-50-gr-jacketed-frangible-20-bx-50-cs.html
I shot a bunch of it recently in training. It did what it was supposed to. A couple of us got lightly peppered with 9mm fragments, but the 5.56 was fine. It also didn’t **** up smaller target plates that I thought it would.
Typical use I see is 9mm Mk254 paired with 5.56 Mk311. With steel 15-25yds (or closer), or shoot house walls, much more likely to get fragments of 9 than 5.56. GTG steel can take plenty of both without issue.
No, more like an FMJ that fractures into 2-3 pieces. More relies upon a hard surface impact.
So in the right circumstances could be quite devastating to unprotected soft targets?
So in the right circumstances could be quite devastating to unprotected soft targets?
There’s a gray-tip hollowpoint frang round referred to as low-ricochet, reduced penetration, or something like that, that works well on mammals. Its JAG-approved for operational use. Mk255, I believe. The Sea People like it.
So in the right circumstances could be quite devastating to unprotected soft targets?
Yes*, but I'd not intentionally choose it unless I had an accompanying need for lead-free frang capability.
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