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Molon
08-21-22, 08:49
MEN 56 Grain M193 Accuracy


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/men_m193_box_label_02-1999752.jpg


Yes, you read that title correctly. The M193 ammunition manufactured by MEN (Metallwerk Elisenhütte GmbH) has a 56 grain bullet.

“But Molon,” you say. “How can this be M193 if it doesn’t have a 55 grain bullet?”

Well, if you look at the mil-spec drawing for the M193 projectile, you’ll see that the weight specification for the copper jacket of the bullet is 17.5 grains, with a tolerance of minus 1.0 grains. Also, the lead slug for the projectile has a weight specification of 38.5 grains, with a tolerance of minus 1.0 grains. Take the 17.5 grains for the jacket, add it to the 38.5 grains for the lead slug and we have a total weight for the projectile of 56 grains (with a total tolerance of minus 2.0 grains). So, as long as the bullet doesn’t weigh more than 56 grains (or less than 54 grains), it technically meets the weight specification for M193.


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/men_56_grain_bullet_on_scale_02-1999599.jpg


The 56 grain MEN M193 bullet is approximately 0.030” longer than a typical American manufactured M193 bullet.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/men_56_grain_m193_bullet_comparison_01-1999601.jpg

This ammunition is loaded in brass cases with the annealing iris still visible. The case mouth has asphalt sealant and is crimped into the cannelure of the bullet. This ammunition is charged with “ball” powder.


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/men_m193_cartridge_01-1999604.jpg


Each red square in the grid below is 1/10th of an inch.


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/men_m193_powder_01-1999606.jpg


The case-head stamp of the lot of this ammunition that I tested reads:

5,56x45

MEN16


The primer pocket has a healthy dose of sealant. Strangely enough, the primer pockets are not crimped, which technically means this ammunition does not meet the US mil-spec for M193.


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/men_m193_case_head_01-1999605.jpg


Accuracy


The US accuracy specification for M193 cited in MIL-C-9963F is as follows:

The average of the mean radii of all targets of the sample cartridges, fired at 200 yards, shall not exceed 2.0 inches.

These averages are from 10-shot groups fired from machine rested, bolt-actioned, heavy test barrels. All things being equal this specification equates to a mean radius of 1 inch at 100 yards (the distance at which I tested this ammunition).

I conducted an accuracy (technically, precision) evaluation of the MEN 56 grain M193 ammunition following my usual protocol. This accuracy evaluation used statistically significant shot-group sizes and every single shot in a fired group was included in the measurements. There was absolutely no use of any Group Reduction Techniques (e.g. fliers, target movement, Butterfly Shots).

The shooting set-up will be described in detail below. As many of the significant variables as was practicable were controlled for. Also, a control group was fired from the test-rifle used in the evaluation using match-grade, hand-loaded ammunition; in order to demonstrate the capability of the barrel. Pictures of shot-groups are posted for documentation.

All shooting was conducted from a concrete bench-rest from a distance of 100 yards (confirmed with a laser rangefinder.) The barrel used in the evaluation was free-floated. The free-float handguards of the rifle rested in a Sinclair Windage Benchrest, while the stock of the rifle rested in a Protektor bunny-ear rear bag. Sighting was accomplished via a Leupold VARI-X III set at 25X magnification and adjusted to be parallax-free at 100 yards. A mirage shade was used. Wind conditions on the shooting range were continuously monitored using a Wind Probe. The set-up was very similar to that pictured below.


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/colt_with_pri_handguard_in_benchrest_001-1470442.jpg


The Wind Probe . . .

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/wind_probe_2016_01_framedb-1342522.jpg


The test vehicle for this evaluation was one of my semi-automatic precision AR-15s with a 20” stainless-steel Lothar Walther barrel. The barrel has a 223 Wylde chamber with a 1:8” twist.


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/lothar_walther_barrel_21_resized-1999713.jpg


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/lothar_barrel_crown_02_resized-1297385-1342445.jpg


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/lothar_walther_barrel_free_floated_05-12-1342446.jpg


Prior to firing the MEN 56 grain M193, I fired a 10-shot control group using match-grade hand-loads topped with the Sierra 52 grain MatchKing. That group had an extreme spread of 0.59”.


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/sierra_52_grain_matchking_10_shot_contro-1999607.jpg


Three 10-shot groups of the MEN 56 grain M193 were fired in a row with the resulting extreme spreads:

1.39”

1.35"

1.34”

for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 1.36”. The three 10-shot groups were over-layed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius for the 30-shot composite group was 0.47”.


The smallest 10-shot group (by mean radius) . . .

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/men_56_grain_m193_10_shot_group_at_100_y-1999600.jpg



The 30-shot composite group . . .

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/men_m193_30_shot_composite_group_001d-1999602.jpg



Velocity

The velocity specification for M193 as cited in MIL-C-9963F states:

"The average velocity of the sample cartridges, conditioned at 72 degrees, plus or minus 2 degrees Fahrenheit (F), shall be 3165 feet per second (ft/sec), plus or minus 40 ft/sec, at 78 feet from the muzzle of the weapon. The standard deviation of the velocities shall not exceed 40 ft/sec."

The velocity specification is from a 20” test barrel. Depending on multiple variables, this velocity specification equates to a muzzle velocity of approximately 3270 ft/sec, plus or minus 40 ft/sec.

As an aside, after reading the above specification, some of you may be wondering, “Why 78 feet from the muzzle?” The answer to that question is that this specification is simply an historical hold-over from the days when “circuit” chronographs (e.g. Le Boulenge Chronograph and the Aberdeen Chronograph) were used at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Frankford Arsenal and Springfield Armory. These types of chronographs required a significant distance between their first and second screens to produce accurate results.

As an example, when using the Boulenge Chronograph, the first screen of the chronograph was placed 3 feet in front of the muzzle and the second screen was placed 150 feet beyond the first screen. For those of you who might not be aware of the following fact; chronographs determine the velocity of the bullet at a point that is midway between the first and the second screen (i.e. not at the location of the first screen). Therefore, with the above spacing, the velocity of the bullet is determined for a point that is 75 feet from the first screen. So, add the three feet (from the muzzle to the first screen) to the 75 feet (the midway point of the screens) to obtain the “78 feet from the muzzle” distance.


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/chronograph_spacing_44-1845418.jpg


I chronographed the MEN 56 grain M193 ammunition from a semi-automatic AR-15 with a chrome-lined, NATO chambered 20” Colt barrel with a 1:7” twist.


Chronographing was conducted using an Oehler 35-P chronograph with “proof screen” technology. The Oehler 35P chronograph is actually two chronographs in one package that takes two separate chronograph readings for each shot and then has its onboard computer analyze the data to determine if there is any statistically significant difference between the two readings. If there is, the chronograph “flags” the shot to let you know that the data is invalid. There was no invalid data flagged during this testing.

The velocity stated below is the muzzle velocity as calculated from the instrumental velocity using Oehler’s Ballistic Explorer software program. The string of fire consisted of 10 rounds over the chronograph.


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/oehler_chronograph_32-1342454.jpg


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/oehler_computer_02-1342452.jpg


Each round was single-loaded and cycled into the chamber from a magazine fitted with a single-load follower. The bolt locked-back after each shot allowing the chamber to cool in between each shot. This technique was used to mitigate the possible influence of “chamber-soak” on velocity data. Each new shot was fired in a consistent manner after hitting the bolt release. Atmospheric conditions were monitored and recorded using a Kestrel 4000 Pocket Weather Tracker.


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/kestrel_4000_21-1342442.jpg


Atmospheric conditions

Temperature: 73 degrees F
Humidity: 80%
Barometric pressure: 30.02 inches of Hg
Elevation: 950 feet above sea level


The muzzle velocity for the 10-shot string of the MEN 56 grain M193 ammunition fired from the 20” Colt barrel was 3161 FPS with a standard deviation of 10 FPS and a coefficient of variation of 0.32%.

For those of you who might not be familiar with the coefficient of variation (CV), it is the standard deviation, divided by the mean (average) muzzle velocity and then multiplied by 100 and expressed as a percentage. It allows for the comparison of the uniformity of velocity between loads in different velocity spectrums; e.g. 77 grain loads running around 2,650 fps compared to 55 grain loads running around 3,250 fps.

For comparison, the mil-spec for M193 allows for a coefficient of variation of approximately 1.2%, while one of my best 77 grain OTM hand-loads, with a muzzle velocity of 2639 PFS and a standard deviation of 4 FPS, has a coefficient of variation of 0.15%.


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/stnadard_deviation_of_4_fps_01-1342455.jpg



......

markm
08-21-22, 09:38
I think we shot some of this. We shot something 5.56 that gave us MEN brass.??:confused:

gaijin
08-21-22, 10:51
I had a case of MEN M193 2/3 years back.
With garden variety carbines (BCM, Colt) it averaged 1 3/4” to 2 1/4” for 5 shot groups @ 100 yds from bench.
We were unimpressed.
I believe MEN is a subsidiary of CBC Brazil, or they are part of the same Corporation.
CBC shot virtually the same.

It’s a given We did not have the accuracy potential of Molon’s stick.

Hammer_Man
08-21-22, 13:18
Molon, once again thanks for another informative post. It’s nice to see this ammo performs well, just like any other well made 193 cartridge. It gives us what we need as a community to make an informed decision.

Can I make a request? I’d like to see how all the commercially available MK262 cartridges perform in relation to each other. I’m talking about 77 grain OTM from Sig Sauer, Federal, IMI, PMC, Berger, etc.. I’m also curious how Frontier 69 grain and 75 grain BTHP Match ammo perform as well. I can send you a couple boxes of each (Frontier 69 and 75 grain) for testing.

Yes, MEN is owned by CBC. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, as both have performed well for me.

IndustrialHalo
08-21-22, 13:42
Molon, thank you for the test.

I know IraqVeteran8888 liked the lighter MEN ammunition, nice to know this performs well since it's normally priced decently.

flenna
08-21-22, 13:44
I had a case of MEN M193 2/3 years back.
With garden variety carbines (BCM, Colt) it averaged 1 3/4” to 2 1/4” for 5 shot groups @ 100 yds from bench.
We were unimpressed.
I believe MEN is a subsidiary of CBC Brazil, or they are part of the same Corporation.
CBC shot virtually the same.

It’s a given We did not have the accuracy potential of Molon’s stick.

That’s actually not bad for M193 with “garden variety” carbines.

TexHill
08-21-22, 16:10
I had a case of MEN M193 2/3 years back.
With garden variety carbines (BCM, Colt) it averaged 1 3/4” to 2 1/4” for 5 shot groups @ 100 yds from bench.
We were unimpressed.
I believe MEN is a subsidiary of CBC Brazil, or they are part of the same Corporation.
CBC shot virtually the same.

It’s a given We did not have the accuracy potential of Molon’s stick.

I've had the opposite experience with MEN and CBC ammo, and Larry Vickers has spoken highly of MEN/CBC in the past.


https://youtu.be/R0HM8hWMpgQ

Wake27
08-21-22, 16:51
Anything under 2.5 is decent for M193 IME. Under 2 is very good, actually atypical from the times I’ve grouped it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Straight Shooter
08-21-22, 18:02
This is just an fyi..no big revelation here. I have many mags loaded with MEN 56 gr, Ive shot it almost exclusively for awhile now. Been 100% reliable.
Info from a LMT 16" 1/7 carbine, 10 round groups. Love the 30 round boxes, & is very clean, shiny ammo.

MEN 56gr M193
HI: 3108
LOW: 3023
ES:85
AVE:3069

MAGTECH 62gr FMJ
HI:2982
LOW:2917
ES:65
AVE:2950

markm
08-22-22, 09:47
I've had the opposite experience with MEN and CBC ammo, and Larry Vickers has spoken highly of MEN/CBC in the past.

What do you mean by "opposite"? He just gave his group sizes from 5 round tests.

pointblank4445
08-22-22, 09:52
Thanks for blowing that secret Molon...

I enjoyed having an inexpensive blasting round that was readily available and didn't suck.

markm
08-22-22, 10:23
Thanks for blowing that secret Molon...

I enjoyed having an inexpensive blasting round that was readily available and didn't suck.

I didn't know this stuff was around. I assumed it was a one off import run.

10MMGary
08-22-22, 10:51
Really liking the original post thanks for the effort. I've been using this ammo(MEN)for a 20 months or so. As with any good quality ammo it was more accurate than myself. No problems and price was right. I always wondered what was up with the 56gr projectile.

pointblank4445
08-22-22, 10:58
Mostly consistent availability the last 5ish years for the 5.56. Some lulls in availability but surprising availability these last 2 years all things considered. The only thing that was a better steal was that 62gr otm from Win that was Swedish? over run.

Their 9mm was sweet but that’s been out for some time unfortunately

markm
08-22-22, 11:01
The one thing that was a little annoying about MEN 5.56 (and NORMA factory as well) is that the brass is heavier. You can hear it when it jingles in the brass pile. (10 grains heavier than LC, I believe) Not a bad thing in itself, but had to sort it off for handloading since the additional material had to be internal volume variance.

Our brass inevitably gets mixed up due to gas guns ejecting in various piles. So having to read and sort headstamps with aging eyes is a pain.

Straight Shooter
08-22-22, 11:20
The one thing that was a little annoying about MEN 5.56 (and NORMA factory as well) is that the brass is heavier. You can hear it when it jingles in the brass pile. (10 grains heavier than LC, I believe) Not a bad thing in itself, but had to sort it off for handloading since the additional material had to be internal volume variance.

Our brass inevitably gets mixed up due to gas guns ejecting in various piles. So having to read and sort headstamps with aging eyes is a pain.

Mark, does being heavier translate into more reloads per case? And could it be loaded a little hotter than thinner brass?

markm
08-22-22, 13:03
Mark, does being heavier translate into more reloads per case? And could it be loaded a little hotter than thinner brass?

Unfortunately no. It should, but if I remember correctly, the MEN brass didn't have a nice snug primer pocket after once firing. It was just so so. If it were longer lasting, believe me... I'd sort it off and just load it every week.

C-grunt
08-22-22, 14:54
I bought a couple cases of the MEN 56 grain a few years ago at the recommendation of Gunz. I found it to be the most accurate M193 I have used. Not that Federal or Wolf Gold were necessarily bad, but I like to shoot M193 out to extended ranges and it was noticeably better. Im wondering if the slightly longer and more sleek bullet has a better BC? I noticed that the MEN shot better out past 600 yards than the other M193/55 grain factory loads.

I havent seen it for sale in a few years though. My Federal and Wolf Gold stash is running a bit low and if the MEN is available, it's my top choice.

Straight Shooter
08-22-22, 15:27
Unfortunately no. It should, but if I remember correctly, the MEN brass didn't have a nice snug primer pocket after once firing. It was just so so. If it were longer lasting, believe me... I'd sort it off and just load it every week.

Thank you for that info sir.

markm
08-22-22, 16:17
Im wondering if the slightly longer and more sleek bullet has a better BC?

I'm betting it would have to. If you were one of those ballistic program fiddlers, you could probably back into its BC with a Chrono.

TexHill
08-22-22, 16:56
What do you mean by "opposite"? He just gave his group sizes from 5 round tests.

By opposite I mean that I find MEN/CBC to be very accurate through my 16" Daniel Defense carbine. For me, I find it to consistently be 1-1.5 moa ammo, with any flyers being my fault.

Pappabear
08-22-22, 18:53
I remember that it shot OK for range blaster ammo. I was very excited because I bought a bunch to slam through my MWS guns for fun and games in 7.62. I also remember how well it looked and was packaged but that heavy duty brass killed the thrill, but that is not the point of this thread.

It appears to be quality M193 blaster ammo and Molon's post is as always, legit. Very interesting how they spec out the ammo, well done.

PB

sinister
08-23-22, 08:44
I thought MEN was German?

Years ago there was a bunch of MEN 7.62 NATO Ball going around that grouped almost as well as Federal 168 Match.

Molon
08-23-22, 08:51
I thought MEN was German?



It is.

Metallwerk Elisenhütte GmbH

TexHill
08-23-22, 09:00
I thought MEN was German?

Years ago there was a bunch of MEN 7.62 NATO Ball going around that grouped almost as well as Federal 168 Match.

My understanding is that they provide ammo to the German Federal Police and military, and that they are allowed to sell any overruns. This is why they only produce a few calibers and the availability can be hit or miss.

markm
08-23-22, 09:11
By opposite I mean that I find MEN/CBC to be very accurate through my 16" Daniel Defense carbine. For me, I find it to consistently be 1-1.5 moa ammo, with any flyers being my fault.

Gotcha... I wouldn't call it opposite nor did I read anything into gajin's post that it was sub par ammo. Just what he got from shooting it.

Pappabear
08-23-22, 13:27
I have cases of their 7.62 and it shoots quite well for .60/rd. And the brass is great for reloading. GREAT

I offer exhibit A with a can full of 308 goodness via MEN brass compliments of MM

http://i.imgur.com/ENfMSw3.jpg (https://imgur.com/ENfMSw3)

PB

ryanm
10-29-23, 13:22
Nomenclature for the IMI M193 now states "Complies with MIL-C-9963F specifications". Is that a recent development?

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2090862857?pid=862857&utm_medium=email&utm_source=service&utm_campaign=shipping-confirmation&utm_content=product-shipped-today-product-description-link

RUTGERS95
10-29-23, 13:27
I had a case of MEN M193 2/3 years back.
With garden variety carbines (BCM, Colt) it averaged 1 3/4” to 2 1/4” for 5 shot groups @ 100 yds from bench.
We were unimpressed.
I believe MEN is a subsidiary of CBC Brazil, or they are part of the same Corporation.
CBC shot virtually the same.

It’s a given We did not have the accuracy potential of Molon’s stick.

that's my experience too
now the DAG in 308 is some fine German stuff!

Molon
10-29-23, 15:56
Nomenclature for the IMI M193 now states "Complies with MIL-C-9963F specifications". Is that a recent development?

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2090862857?pid=862857&utm_medium=email&utm_source=service&utm_campaign=shipping-confirmation&utm_content=product-shipped-today-product-description-link

We shall see.

...

ryanm
10-29-23, 17:22
Ordered some, will take some closeups and post in this thread. I don't have the same equipment for testing but I do have a labradar for velocity and the kestrel meter for conditions.