View Full Version : Young people, the Army, and the ASVAB...
Boy, how times have changed over the decades. When I was in high school, all male students were required to take the ASVAB at school (one afternoon in the cafeteria, IIRC) This would have been 1977 or 1978. Back then, I don't recall it being a "pass or fail" test, just an identifier of aptitudes for certain jobs - mechanical, electronics, administrative, general, etc. Although if you can't get a decent score after 10 tries, maybe the food service industry would be a better fit...
FORT JACKSON, S.C. (AP) — Chaz Andrews has wanted to join the Army since he was 19, but he has failed the service's academic test more than 10 times over the past decade.
Now, at age 29, Andrews thinks he has a real shot to pass, thanks to a new Army program that gives lower-performing recruits up to 90 days of academic or fitness instruction to help them meet military standards.
“I didn’t want to give up on it,” he said during a recent break in his classroom schedule at Fort Jackson, where he is one of more than 300 recruits who have been allowed to enlist in the new Army prep course. And if Andrews, who is from Brooklyn, New York, is able to raise his test score, he will be allowed to continue on to basic training.
The program, which began in early August, is one way the Army is hoping to fill the ranks as it struggles with recruiting efforts that are expected to fall dramatically short of the goals this year. Army officials have described the situation as dire, with some predicting the service may fall 10,000 to 15,000 soldiers short of its recruiting target on Oct. 1 , or as much as 18% to 25%.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/army-program-gives-poor-performing-113352454.html
I’m pretty sure you could fail even back then.
I walked into that test cold at the recruiters office and pretty much aced it.
You have to be really stoopid to get a score bad enough to fail. It is not a hard test at all and I am certain it is easier now than it was back then.
I do recall us getting scores back. I did crappy on electronics but did well in mechanical and general. It's hard to believe that a person could fail in all categories - hell, the military still needs cooks and transportation people.
No offense to this dude, but if you can't pass the ASVAB, and have a high school education, there's something else going on there. Learning disability, exceptionally high testing anxiety, etc.
Historically, if the military has problems meeting their recruiting goals - lower the standards.
No offense to this dude, but if you can't pass the ASVAB, and have a high school education, there's something else going on there. Learning disability, exceptionally high testing anxiety, etc.
Probably true. And yet, taking it that many times just to fail and keep trying shows some strongly positive traits that a lot of his peers don’t have.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
The sad part is the Commander and Chief and General Austin and Milley are 10 times worse.
Any reasonably intelligent person could probably do many (if not a lot) of the occupations in the military.
Considering a few of the guys I met in the Corps, I gotta wonder just how bad off a fella has to be to "fail".
Of course, some folks just vapor lock when it comes to taking tests.
Everyone jokes about "dumb grunts", even us dumb grunts. Truth be told though the infantry ain't no place for dummies. Folks with low cognitive abilities ain't exactly gonna light up the promotion boards either.
I do gotta give thus guy credit for persistence though. I'm kinda surprised it hasn't born fruit. In my experience "want to" and dedication usually lead to success. That "I really want this" drive generally finds a way.
I’m pretty sure you could fail even back then.
I walked into that test cold at the recruiters office and pretty much aced it.
You have to be really stoopid to get a score bad enough to fail. It is not a hard test at all and I am certain it is easier now than it was back then.
I think it's largely the same although now it's computer-based not a written paper test.
I did really well but I stunk with the mechanical and the math. I did well enough though, ended up getting out of the Navy as a Mustang officer.
Considering a few of the guys I met in the Corps, I gotta wonder just how bad off a fella has to be to "fail".
Of course, some folks just vapor lock when it comes to taking tests.
Everyone jokes about "dumb grunts", even us dumb grunts. Truth be told though the infantry ain't no place for dummies. Folks with low cognitive abilities ain't exactly gonna light up the promotion boards either.
I do gotta give thus guy credit for persistence though. I'm kinda surprised it hasn't born fruit. In my experience "want to" and dedication usually lead to success. That "I really want this" drive generally finds a way.
Ironically, Marine infantry scores higher than many other MOSs. They want thinkers, not pet rocks.
So here is a candidate who WANTS to be there and doesn't have a background of being a gang banger or other undesirable. Probably is very academically challenged, so I think they are doing the right thing by helping him with what is essentially a tutoring program. In the past they'd have simply drafted him "as is" and had yet another dumbass who was a liability to himself and everyone around him.
But "wants to be there" is perhaps the most important criteria, it means he can probably learn to fit in and perform. Read about Richard Meadows, the guy had problems reading and writing, maybe he'd have had problems with the ASVAB.
The biggest shame is they waited until this guy was 29 before a program was created to offer assistance.
I have served with/supervised more than one soldier who was well below average IQ; I was the squad leader for one for the better part of a year in Korea. It is literally impossible he passed an ASVAB - his recruiting station had a ringer taking tests.
Once a person gets low enough in mental ability, they are a dangerous burden on everyone they serve with.
Its honestly not enough to want to serve.
I would say its possible our school system just failed these folks - never learned basic math, mechanical principals, logical problem solving, etc. Does not mean they are not mentally capable.
Andy
When I was enlisted in the early 2000s you had to have a score of I believe 30 or 32 to enlist. So that means roughly 30 percent of the people taking the ASVAB "failed" it.
I took the test my Junior year of high school in one of the exam rooms. I scored an 86 overall with a GT score of 120. I had every job in the Army available to me and chose infantry. If I was going to join the Army I wanted to do Army shit. When I got to my unit I found that a lot of the infantrymen were just like me. They scored high on the ASVAB but wanted combat jobs because they wanted a challenge or to be a frontline Soldier.
That's not to say there wasnt our fair share of 30 something ASVAB score guys there too. Ive always said that Forrest Gump was more of a documentary than some people realize. Keep them out of leadership positions and they did fine.
Diamondback
08-28-22, 17:10
No offense to this dude, but if you can't pass the ASVAB, and have a high school education, there's something else going on there. Learning disability, exceptionally high testing anxiety, etc.
Could just be an absolute drizzleshit Edjuhkayshun Sizzztuhm...
Averageman
08-28-22, 17:42
When I got to my unit I found that a lot of the infantrymen were just like me. They scored high on the ASVAB but wanted combat jobs because they wanted a challenge or to be a frontline Soldier.
This was my experiance with Tanks, every once in a while you run into someone very like minded.
When I was enlisted in the early 2000s you had to have a score of I believe 30 or 32 to enlist. So that means roughly 30 percent of the people taking the ASVAB "failed" it.
I took the test my Junior year of high school in one of the exam rooms. I scored an 86 overall with a GT score of 120. I had every job in the Army available to me and chose infantry. If I was going to join the Army I wanted to do Army shit. When I got to my unit I found that a lot of the infantrymen were just like me. They scored high on the ASVAB but wanted combat jobs because they wanted a challenge or to be a frontline Soldier.
That's not to say there wasnt our fair share of 30 something ASVAB score guys there too. Ive always said that Forrest Gump was more of a documentary than some people realize. Keep them out of leadership positions and they did fine.
They offered me a million jobs other than what I asked for. I finally had twist their arm to get what I wanted in a contract or I was walking. It was like they couldn't get that people could score well and also wanted to go on the pointy end of the spear.
The_War_Wagon
08-28-22, 18:07
If Forrest Gump can make buck SGT.... so can ASVAB-flunkys. We were still taking that in the early 80's in NC. Gotta ribbon for acing it in JROTC, IIRC.
I would say its possible our school system just failed these folks - never learned basic math, mechanical principals, logical problem solving, etc. Does not mean they are not mentally capable.
Andy
That is exactly why I guessed it is easier at this point. But that is only a guess.
If Forrest Gump can make buck SGT.... so can ASVAB-flunkys. We were still taking that in the early 80's in NC. Gotta ribbon for acing it in JROTC, IIRC.Oh man I wanted to come here and post: "Private Gump! Why did you put that rifle together so quickly!"
You beat me to it. [emoji1]
No offense to this dude, but if you can't pass the ASVAB, and have a high school education, there's something else going on there. Learning disability, exceptionally high testing anxiety, etc.
My grandmother and grandfather both were long time (20+ years each) public school teachers in a city near me.
They were not 'allowed' to fail anywhere near the number of idiots that really failed lest they would have been fired.
One time grandma told us about how she got called into the principals office because she failed slightly over half the class. Most because they never showed up to class at all and some because they rarely showed up but never did any of the assignments. Clear reasons to fail these students but the principal made it very CLEAR to her that if they did not 'pass' and if the attendance roles were not 'fixed' she would be out of a job. THAT sort of crap was going on 30 years ago (when I heard this particular story from grandma) and nobody in the media or anywhere said anything about it back then.
The schools require those kids to be there for a particular number of days each year and a passing grade before the school gets PAID by the state for that kid being there.
A couple of years back a few teachers from that same school system contacted the local media and blew the whistle on the same exact thing grandma used to describe frequently because it was still happening every single school year. Kids 'passing' that never showed up for any classes...
It was a story for less than a few weeks before it went 'poof' and disappeared from the media.
When I was enlisted in the early 2000s you had to have a score of I believe 30 or 32 to enlist. So that means roughly 30 percent of the people taking the ASVAB "failed" it.
I took the test my Junior year of high school in one of the exam rooms. I scored an 86 overall with a GT score of 120. I had every job in the Army available to me and chose infantry. If I was going to join the Army I wanted to do Army shit. When I got to my unit I found that a lot of the infantrymen were just like me. They scored high on the ASVAB but wanted combat jobs because they wanted a challenge or to be a frontline Soldier.
That's not to say there wasnt our fair share of 30 something ASVAB score guys there too. Ive always said that Forrest Gump was more of a documentary than some people realize. Keep them out of leadership positions and they did fine.
Same here, I scored high enough to do any job in any branch, I chose infantry. I later became a JFO certified FiSTer, the Pythagoras of grunts. I listened to a Jordan Peterson podcast recently where he discussed how back in WWII the Army discovered that if a person has an IQ of less than a certain amount, 85 I think, they are incapable of being able to be trained well enough to be able to perform any task in the Army satisfactory. I think he also said that those make up roughly ten percent of the population.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-29-22, 08:25
I have served with/supervised more than one soldier who was well below average IQ; I was the squad leader for one for the better part of a year in Korea. It is literally impossible he passed an ASVAB - his recruiting station had a ringer taking tests.
Once a person gets low enough in mental ability, they are a dangerous burden on everyone they serve with.
Its honestly not enough to want to serve.
I would say its possible our school system just failed these folks - never learned basic math, mechanical principals, logical problem solving, etc. Does not mean they are not mentally capable.
Andy
Same here, I scored high enough to do any job in any branch, I chose infantry. I later became a JFO certified FiSTer, the Pythagoras of grunts. I listened to a Jordan Peterson podcast recently where he discussed how back in WWII the Army discovered that if a person has an IQ of less than a certain amount, 85 I think, they are incapable of being able to be trained well enough to be able to perform any task in the Army satisfactory. I think he also said that those make up roughly ten percent of the population.
Came here to post on the Jordan Peterson video also. After a certain level of cognitive disability, you are basically a walking mental casualty. That is absolutely not a dig on someone’s morality.
There was some French guy in the past 20 years that they found had an extreme case of hydroencephalitis, if I remember correctly. Most of his head was filled with water and he had only a thin outer brain material along with the brain stem basics for functioning. The scientists were amazed that he could live in survive, let alone hold a job with that kind of literal brain“damage“. That he had a job with the government I think was a point of a lot of jokes.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brain-tiny/tiny-brain-no-obstacle-to-french-civil-servant-idUSN1930510020070720
I think it's largely the same although now it's computer-based not a written paper test.
I did really well but I stunk with the mechanical and the math. I did well enough though, ended up getting out of the Navy as a Mustang officer.
My GT score was 130. I qualified for ANY enlisted job the Army had to offer. Guess what I ended up doing? (see sigline)
No regrets though, now I can talk smack to pogues! ;)
I don't remember my exact score, but it was high enough that my recruiter was surprised and said I could do anything. ADA had the highest signing bonus so I picked that.
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
My GT score was 130. I qualified for ANY enlisted job the Army had to offer. Guess what I ended up doing? (see sigline)
No regrets though, now I can talk smack to pogues! ;)
Yeah I had to argue with my recruiter, his senior for the region (a MSgt I think), and a full Colonel at MEPS. I was "strongly encouraged" to select a more technical MOS "for my own happiness and the good of the Corps". It felt like they must get some kind of extra out of filling the technical slots.
Oh BTW, GT was 136 if I remember correctly. I ain't all that but I punch above my weight on standardized tests for some reason.
No offense to this dude, but if you can't pass the ASVAB, and have a high school education, there's something else going on there. Learning disability, exceptionally high testing anxiety, etc.
This is exactly it.
There are things other than being intellectually handicapped (test-taking is a skill, and I'm on the opposite end of it)... but the fact that recruiters are investing this kind of time speaks volumes.
Oh BTW, GT was 136 if I remember correctly. I ain't all that but I punch above my weight on standardized tests for some reason.
Yup, being in the high 140's... but ironically it was taking the DLAB that sealed my fate on MOS. Can't really complain about two years in Monterey and six months in DC while learning languages.
Yeah I remember being sent to take those language tests. Not everybody got selected, don't know the criteria. All I know is I must have rocked that test like bird shit in thin air. I got sent back to my platoon about halfway through.
Keep in mind the ASVAB scoring has changed three times that I know of, so you can't directly compare "GT" scores across generations. Not to mention the other scores play into specific career field selections.
I do know the Army recruiting command cared more about high GT, HS grad, and demographics than putting people into specific jobs - generally speaking. Of course the command had to fill the jobs with the highest priorities and naturally they didn't want to "waste" a high scoring candidate on jobs that didn't require high scores.
The biggest problem has and always will be finding interested candidates with HS or HS+ degrees, acceptable HW and test scores, AND a clean criminal record.
Andy
Keep in mind the ASVAB scoring has changed three times that I know of, so you can't directly compare "GT" scores across generations. Not to mention the other scores play into specific career field selections.
I do know the Army recruiting command cared more about high GT, HS grad, and demographics than putting people into specific jobs - generally speaking. Of course the command had to fill the jobs with the highest priorities and naturally they didn't want to "waste" a high scoring candidate on jobs that didn't require high scores.
The biggest problem has and always will be finding interested candidates with HS or HS+ degrees, acceptable HW and test scores, AND a clean criminal record.
Andy
That are willing to take a drug test...
Diamondback
08-30-22, 11:49
That are willing to take a drug test...
And weren't force-fed Ritalin as kids, in the case of 1980s-90s kids, though hopefully we're culturally past the overuse of prescribed methlyphenidates and similar.
And weren't force-fed Ritalin as kids, in the case of 1980s-90s kids, though hopefully we're culturally past the overuse of prescribed methlyphenidates and similar.
That, and inhalers. And cholesterol meds. They are so schizophrenic. Them: our numbers are down! Everyone else: OK, give us a waiver. Them: No! Help. we can't recruit anyone!
At least the army has this 'stoopid school' for the borderline recruits to get them up to par. At least they are pretending to try with that.
Averageman
08-30-22, 16:04
I don't know the answers to all the questions but, I was born in the early 60's.
I don't know what my Mom was thinking because I can remember going fishing with friends in First grade. So I'm a mile from the house playing in good sized creek with zero supervision.
I couldn't read for a bit, I used to get very distracted in school and I'm pretty sure reading was just not being taught the way I could grasp it. It started to worry the school so my Mom got flashcards, now this could be a normal story, but it isn't. My Dad breaks out the flashcards and sits me in the corner of the couch with the TV on and sits with his back to the TV. If I got caught looking at the TV and not concentraiting on my Dad and the flashcards I got "popped" and we started over. If I made it through the deck without getting "popped" I got to watch TV.
I learned to read and became an avid reader well in to my 40's.
I was a miserable student until my mid thirties, I graduated college while in the Military at 39. I found a system that worked for me. It's called self discipline.
That, and inhalers. And cholesterol meds. They are so schizophrenic. Them: our numbers are down! Everyone else: OK, give us a waiver. Them: No! Help. we can't recruit anyone!
At least the army has this 'stoopid school' for the borderline recruits to get them up to par. At least they are pretending to try with that.
I wonder about this argument. Not that every kids on various drugs is a self absorbed snowflake, but I wonder how many people that say "I want to serve" would find themselves getting an ELS for failure to adapt because they can't deal with having to suck it up.
I've seen recruiting standards go up and down depending on how many people were needed at the time. Heading for a Reduction In Force? Tighten those entry standards. Quotas not being met consistently? Ease off those requirements. Been arrested? Not for a felony? You're good.
I've seen recruiting standards go up and down depending on how many people were needed at the time. Heading for a Reduction In Force? Tighten those entry standards. Quotas not being met consistently? Ease off those requirements. Been arrested? Not for a felony? You're good.
Sheeeeit.... During the peak of GWOT It's amazing what they're giving waivers for. Blind to one eye, one kidney, syphilis lesions on the brain? Check. Mass murder? Check.
Peace time military, especially with how this country is going right now? Waivers are very very hard to come by.
Sheeeeit.... During the peak of GWOT It's amazing what they're giving waivers for. Blind to one eye, one kidney, syphilis lesions on the brain? Check. Mass murder? Check.
Peace time military, especially with how this country is going right now? Waivers are very very hard to come by.Dude, when we left Tikrit in 05, the NG or reserve unit (new york, maybe) replacing us was a sight to see. I actually saw a dude hobbling around with a cane. Probably 60 something E-5.
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Dude, when we left Tikrit in 05, the NG or reserve unit (new york, maybe) replacing us was a sight to see. I actually saw a dude hobbling around with a cane. Probably 60 something E-5.
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
42nd ID out of NY, yep. We had a 59 y/o E7 PSG in my company. I was assigned to the 42nd from Active Army because they were ridiculously understrength in my MOS and the AVIM company I ended up in was from PA and replaced the 42nd's AVIM who were criminally over reporting their strength until they were activated.
I was an AIT instructor after I returned and we had one cat show up from Basic and immediately go to dental sick call to have 20ish teeth pulled. He was a meth addict and had multiple waivers.
Lots of trainees showing up w/waivers, ridiculous behaviour swept under the rug to keep numbers up. It was a good time to retire...
Andy
42nd ID out of NY, yep. We had a 59 y/o E7 PSG in my company. I was assigned to the 42nd from Active Army because they were ridiculously understrength in my MOS and the AVIM company I ended up in was from PA and replaced the 42nd's AVIM who were criminally over reporting their strength until they were activated.
I was an AIT instructor after I returned and we had one cat show up from Basic and immediately go to dental sick call to have 20ish teeth pulled. He was a meth addict and had multiple waivers.
Lots of trainees showing up w/waivers, ridiculous behaviour swept under the rug to keep numbers up. It was a good time to retire...
Andy
I went into Iraq in late 06 (NYARNG) with a cat who picked up his E5 as a Marine while in Vietnam
There was an army NG group (don't know what unit or state) we called 'the geriatric brigade' and made bets as to who would fall out with a heart attack.
For certain staff corps specialties you can still get an age waiver up to your 50s (I think).
Interesting article. Couple things to note. Well, more than a couple. Number one, everyone and either program are motivated. Number two, the leadership are two special forces officers. Number three, note the trainee who did poorly on the ASVAB because he is Korean. But you already has infantry experience.
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2022/08/31/prep-course-pilot-breaks-basic-training-norms-and-just-might-work/
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.