View Full Version : Is my RDS increasing muzzle rise?
I've noticed the muzzle rise / flip on my Beretta 92X RDO seems exaggerated since putting an optic on it.
It seemed worse still recently with extremely sweaty hands. The gun itself has aggressive texture, my two-handed grip good, but it feels like the recoil / muzzle flip has increased gusto and its annoying / feels like its slowing down follow ups.
I'm mostly firing 147 gr Freedom Munitions steel and my mild brass reloads. (147 gr coated, 3.0 gr Titegroup, @825 fps.)
Is the additional weight of the Holosun 507C plus steel mounting plate plus highish mount system causing this or is it in my head?
I haven't changed any gun springs. It has what it came with. Not even at 1000 rds yet through this gun. Maybe 600-700.
I just don't remember having to make an effort before.
Simple physics. There's more reciprocating mass that's high on the gun, rearward of the "pivot point" where you hold the gun while in recoil and you're doing in on what is a light slide to begin with, so yes, I'd expect you might notice more muzzle rise.
This is why a lot comps are on the rise of seems....
Wondering out loud here…
Are you sure that the muzzle rise is higher or is it that you can “see” the dot move more / you are still adjusting to the RDS compared to irons?
Others have written on the adjustment from irons to RDS. I have only done one class with a RDS, but it took some time to adjust. I shot irons for a CC state class and surprised myself with speed that came naturally. That clued me into not really being used to the RDS yet.
Any additional muzzle rise seeming to have "exaggerated since putting an optic on it" is quite likely simply your ability to more clearly see the amount of muzzle rise with Optic.
Shooting Optics one is "Threat/target Focused", shooting Irons one is "Front Sight, Front Sight, Front Sight" focused.
Any additional muzzle rise seeming to have "exaggerated since putting an optic on it" is quite likely simply your ability to more clearly see the amount of muzzle rise with Optic.
Shooting Optics one is "Threat/target Focused", shooting Irons one is "Front Sight, Front Sight, Front Sight" focused.
+1
This is why a lot comps are on the rise of seems....
Yes, but because people are seeing their flip, rather than there being more of it. If the amount of muzzle flip increase was significant, people wouldn’t be flocking to Carry Optics Division.
Okay.
Sure seems like there is more torque to the muzzle flip, though.
I'm not sure the amount of total weight added. A small amount was milled out of the slide by Beretta of course. 3 oz added total? Just a guess.
Wondering out loud here…
Are you sure that the muzzle rise is higher or is it that you can “see” the dot move more / you are still adjusting to the RDS compared to irons?
Others have written on the adjustment from irons to RDS. I have only done one class with a RDS, but it took some time to adjust. I shot irons for a CC state class and surprised myself with speed that came naturally. That clued me into not really being used to the RDS yet.
There is a bit more mass on the rear of the slide, but probably not enough to have a large enough effect for you to notice. I'd agree with Jedi and gaijin. You're likely just more aware of what's going on using the dot.
I just recently bought a 92x centurion RDO. I added the a red dot, but have not fired it. The plate that beretta sent me was heavier then I thought it would be. It also mounts the red dot higher then normal. I could see where it would change the feel, I have heard of some people having feeding issues once they add the set up. I should know in a few days.
Soli Deo Gloria
Agreed on it being perception only... or at least 98% perception... There could be a very slight increase.
I just recently bought a 92x centurion RDO. I added the a red dot, but have not fired it. The plate that beretta sent me was heavier then I thought it would be. It also mounts the red dot higher then normal. I could see where it would change the feel, I have heard of some people having feeding issues once they add the set up. I should know in a few days.
Soli Deo Gloria
Yea the plate is quite a chunk of steel.
I have had a couple stoppages. (2 or 3?) I blame the ammo. Freedom munitions 147 gr steel case and I think one was my 147 gr reloads that I'm surprised run at all because they are loaded so lightly. (@825 fps chronographed from my gun)
Yea the plate is quite a chunk of steel.
I have had a couple stoppages. (2 or 3?) I blame the ammo. Freedom munitions 147 gr steel case and I think one was my 147 gr reloads that I'm surprised run at all because they are loaded so lightly. (@825 fps chronographed from my gun)They are fun with suppressor though
Soli Deo Gloria
They are fun with suppressor though
Soli Deo Gloria
Will do eventually, mainly for my AP5's, though.
Will bump up my 9mm 147 gr loads (coated lead) from 2.9 to 3.0 grs of Titegroup on the next batch for a little more reliability.
Will do eventually, mainly for my AP5's, though.
Will bump up my 9mm 147 gr loads (coated lead) from 2.9 to 3.0 grs of Titegroup on the next batch for a little more reliability.
That might do it. They’ll usually work above min Minor PF for me, and you’re just under. 3.0 or 3.1 should get you there with coated 147s. 3.3 is pretty much on par with factory ammo.
Any additional muzzle rise seeming to have "exaggerated since putting an optic on it" is quite likely simply your ability to more clearly see the amount of muzzle rise with Optic.
Shooting Optics one is "Threat/target Focused", shooting Irons one is "Front Sight, Front Sight, Front Sight" focused.MDFI Alumni?
No Sir.Ok Sorry.
The last line of your post is what the owner of that training company says during classes all the time.
"Front sight, Front sight, Front sight".
Ok Sorry.
The last line of your post is what the owner of that training company says during classes all the time.
"Front sight, Front sight, Front sight".
This trend is changing. Top performers have spent time forcing target focus with a dot, and when going back to irons, stay target focused and so far is looking like the way to go.
When I say focus, I mean eye clarity, and what youre actually looking at.
True.
I run FO Front sights that are really narrow; .090”-.100”. The FO rod is small in diameter.
I dial in (or order custom height sight-Dawson) at 25 yds with Center of FO Rod being POA.
This allows me to get away with more target/threat focus with reasonable success in terms of hit percentage.
I wanted to add that I did weigh the Beretta RDO plate and it was 1 3/4 oz. (49 grams) The optic is 1.5 oz for a total of 3.25 oz. added to the top of the slide.
I don't know how much Beretta removed to create the mounting area. I'd guess no more than 1/4 oz.
joedirt199
09-15-22, 06:20
Need a side video of shooting each, optic no optic, to really break it down.
Need a side video of shooting each, optic no optic, to really break it down.
Yea that'd be nice.
I am going to compare it to my M&P 2.0 .45 with 200 gr mild loads for comparison back to back, though.
The optic weight is not enough to matter, especially when considering material removed.
The optic weight is not enough to matter, especially when considering material removed.With the 92x rdo there really isn't any removed material, more like material added once you mount the plate.
Soli Deo Gloria
With the 92x rdo there really isn't any removed material, more like material added once you mount the plate.
Soli Deo Gloria
Yup.
I did weigh the Beretta RDO plate and it was 1 3/4 oz. (49 grams) The optic is 1.5 oz for a total of 3.25 oz. added to the top of the slide. That's more than the weight of three 1 oz shotgun slugs, six 230 gr .45 bullets, or twelve 115 gr 9mm bullets to put it in perspective.
I don't know how much Beretta removed to create the mounting area. I'd guess no more than 1/4 oz. Probably much less.
I haven't had a chance to shoot more lately.
I did weigh the Beretta RDO plate and it was 1 3/4 oz. (49 grams) The optic is 1.5 oz for a total of 3.25 oz. added to the top of the slide. That's more than the weight of three 1 oz shotgun slugs, six 230 gr .45 bullets, or twelve 115 gr 9mm bullets to put it in perspective.
More than the mass difference between a Carbine and H3 buffer.
My guess is the shooter can see the rise and fall so much better with RDS so it’s more perceived vs real. Regardless, the trade off would still be worth it to me. I never noticed but I have not seen a clear FS in years. I did try throwing on readers 1.0’s which helped before I went RDS guns. Everyone’s mileage may vary.
Who did your slide milling? Happy with it? Cost ?
PB
My guess is the shooter can see the rise and fall so much better with RDS so it’s more perceived vs real. Regardless, the trade off would still be worth it to me. I never noticed but I have not seen a clear FS in years. I did try throwing on readers 1.0’s which helped before I went RDS guns. Everyone’s mileage may vary.
Who did your slide milling? Happy with it? Cost ?
PB
It's a Beretta 92XG Centurion RDO. Optic ready from Beretta. Decock only.
https://www.eurooptic.com/Beretta-92X-RDO-Centurion-9mm-425-Bbl-DA-SA-Semi-Auto-Type-G-Pistol-w-2-10rd-Mag.aspx?avad=211021_d2b11c281&utm_source=35987&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=avantlink
Here is a video I found on YT. It's not me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZunVJJL_3uo
Just my viewpoint:
Why would you handicap yourself with a DA/SA autoloader, with Bore Axis SO high above web of hand, and exaggerate this deficit further by adding additional mass (Optic) on top of Slide?
Earnest Langdon and (very) few others have mastered this Blowjob handgun system, but it just seems like deliberately handicapping yourself out of the gate. Learning an Optic system on a handgun seems enough of a hurdle to overcome.
Why not a Glock or similar??
P2Vaircrewman
09-20-22, 10:25
Inertia works both ways, if it causes the muzzle to flip up when the slide goes back it causes the muzzle to flip down going forward.
The optic weight is not enough to matter, especially when considering material removed.
This, completely. We re-mounted and RDS on a pistol last weekend, and I got to feel the weight of the sight and look at how these things are mounted first hand. Anyhow, the weight it negligible and the "flip" is almost entirely perception. An RDS is a bulky add on that is very visible when the slide reciprocates.
Just my viewpoint:
Why would you handicap yourself with a DA/SA autoloader, with Bore Axis SO high above web of hand, and exaggerate this deficit further by adding additional mass (Optic) on top of Slide?
Earnest Langdon and (very) few others have mastered this Blowjob handgun system, but it just seems like deliberately handicapping yourself out of the gate. Learning an Optic system on a handgun seems enough of a hurdle to overcome.
Why not a Glock or similar??
Mainly because I'm not willing to carry a striker-fired gun Appendix. I may end up removing the optic but I should spend more time with it first.
Inertia works both ways, if it causes the muzzle to flip up when the slide goes back it causes the muzzle to flip down going forward.
I hadn't considered that you're right.
Mainly because I'm not willing to carry a striker-fired gun Appendix. I may end up removing the optic but I should spend more time with it first.
There are other hammer guns with manual safety’s you might consider.
There are other hammer guns with manual safety’s you might consider.
Oh I try to avoid manual safeties.
My Beretta M92X is decock only. I also have a CZ P01, (decock only), HK P30SK LEM V1, revolvers, and some Beretta Cheetah's. The Cheetahs have manual safeties but I've yet to ever activate one accidentally. (Its left "off") Its 1911-ish so the thumb rides ontop the safety lever.
Probably going to sell the CZ and HK.
If I carried a striker gun it would be an M&P 2.0 and behind the hip.
I shot the Beretta and S&W 2.0 .45 against the timer recently.
The .45, using factory 230 gr, hits the hand harder, but the muzzle rise seemed pretty similar. I wasn't fatigued or sweating my ass off like the last time I was out with the Beretta, and it was easier keeping it under control this visit. Focusing on proper grip (especially stronger grip with support hand) helps of course.
The timer told me the DA first shot costs an extra .25s or so. I knew that. The optic adds another .25s generally when the presentation on draw is perfect. Otherwise the optic adds .25-1s depending how bad I screw up.
I'm not sure how to fix this. I've been practicing alot at home. Il have a great draw and presentation 5 times, 10 times, even 20 times. And in--between a completely shitty presentation and do the circle-dot hunt for what feels like forever.
That doesn't happen with front sights.
I was also putting 5-10 shots in a one-inch group at 15 yds, and just over two inches at 25 yds. That's pretty damn cool.
Shooting multiple 8 inch targets at 25 yds can be done with the .45 in the same time as the Beretta with dot. But not near as consistently.
But when those "what the F---!?" reticleless draws happen at close range, the most important range, it really sucks! You either do the circle-dot hunt or pull the trigger and hope for the best.
Well, it's been about a year.
I've learned proficiency with the pistol RDS, although not on my Berettas.
I see what's going on here now. It is partially the 3 oz of optic plate / optic. But that's only part of the problem.
I recently mounted a RDS on Beretta 96A1 for an even flippier gun. It's too much and extremely slow.
Here is the recipe:
1. Light frame
2. High bore axis
3. Add weight to slide (3 oz)
4. Reduce hammer spring, increasing slide rearward velocity
5. Increase recoil spring, which while decreasing rear slide velocity, increases slide forward velocity and therefore muzzle dip.
6. Shoot medium to full- power .40.
Add it up and it's an exaggerated version of an HK .45. Heavy recoil, lots of muzzle rise, followed by a springy muzzle dip and the result is a LONG shot recovery time.
So why do many like the RDS on a Beretta 92? I'm guessing it's because they run mild 9 mm loads coupled with light hammer & recoil springs to increase slide velocity to shorten recoil dwell time.
I'm going to transfer the RDS back to the 92X RDO, use the stock 16 lb hammer spring, stock 14 lb recoil spring, and carry / shoot mild ammo.
………
Here is the recipe:
1. Light frame
2. High bore axis
3. Add weight to slide (3 oz)
4. Reduce hammer spring, increasing slide rearward velocity
5. Increase recoil spring, which while decreasing rear slide velocity, increases slide forward velocity and therefore muzzle dip.
……….
Precisely this.
Many forget about “slide returning to battery” being part of the Felt Recoil equation.
High line of bore over web of hand and ADDing weight to slide is going to produce more “muzzle hop/muzzle dip”.
You can play with springs; recoil, hammer/mainspring, but it’s a bandaid- like buffer weight/spring “fix” in an overgassed AR.
There are pistols well suited to Optics, and there are pistols that are not.
I'm going to swap the optic from the 96A1 and put it on the 92X RDO.
I'm going to shoot it, the 96A1, and PX4 .45 together and compare / contrast. Also will time some drills, accuracy test, and decide if the PX4 or 96A1 need a new home.
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