View Full Version : .223 wylde
hoopharted
09-30-22, 12:07
so if .223 wylde is suppose to give you the best crossover performance regarding .223 and 5.56 , why is it manufacturers of AR15 rifles simply do not just produce .223 wylde exclusively
Existing recent discussion: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?236215-The-annoying-Wylde-Chamber-explained
Existing recent discussion: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?236215-The-annoying-Wylde-Chamber-explained
Thanks! ;)
so if .223 wylde is suppose to give you the best crossover performance regarding .223 and 5.56 , why is it manufacturers of AR15 rifles simply do not just produce .223 wylde exclusively
Personally would like to see more offerings with real .223 match chambers.
A guy can always send one out to be reamed bigger but you cant sent a 5.56 chambered barrel off to have that chamber shrunk.
Existing recent discussion: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?236215-The-annoying-Wylde-Chamber-explained
That thread is full of false information.
....
That thread is full of false information.
....
Which is false and which is good? Seems like some guys referenced the guy who came up with the chamber design... I'd assume that would be good info.
hoopharted
10-02-22, 06:09
well , i got a 18 inch fluted stainless .223 Wylde barrel for a build , rifle length gas, because its a stainless barrel i feel its best to do a stainless gas block ,
im almost ready to pull the trigger on the Suplerative Arms adjustable bleed off , will be using a Hogue overmold tube FF handguard , my concern lays on the "Bleedoff" design of the gasblock
since its a rifle length port placement, the stainless barrel is a matte finish ,and the overmold handguard has rubber texture , that i will experience excessive carbon build up externally , at very least worried there will be way more than usual
this build is not a utility rifle build , more so a planned out tasteful what i always called a pretty boy rifle so i dont want to be scrubbing carbon off the barrel and the overmold HG
does anyone have real world experience with adjustable "bleed off" type gas blocks , are my concerns valid or am i G2G , i understand im going to experience some external carbon ,especially during initial break in period until the gas system seals up , this is to be expected even with a more traditional GB , i weighed cleaning maintenance when choosing the barrel and understand with the type of barrel finish there will be a different regiment , im just wanting to avoid a black barrel after a couple hundred rds because that would be a drag, and when choosing which rifle to take out the PITA cleaning may cause it to become a safe queen , you know , because im lazy
thanks
I have good luck with the .223 Wylde chamber on match rifles, but I don't think it would be a good chamber for a service rifle or carbine. I've seen pressure issues with some cartridges, when running carbine courses, which may be why the manufacturers don't use the Wylde .223 chamber exclusively.
Manufacturers have test equipment for measuring chamber pressures and high-speed cameras for observing bolt speeds, which most of us do not have access to. I've seen noticeable differences in muzzle velocities when shooting the same ammunition through rifles with 5.56mm chambers and .223 Wylde chambers and I suspect that would be a clue to differences in chamber pressures. Without access to the proper test equipment, that's just speculation on my part. Industry professionals directly involved in testing should be able to give us better insight.
I have good luck with the .223 Wylde chamber on match rifles, but I don't think it would be a good chamber for a service rifle or carbine. I've seen pressure issues with some cartridges, when running carbine courses, which may be why the manufacturers don't use the Wylde .223 chamber exclusively.
Solution -
Don't load to or run 'hot' 5.56 pressure level ammo. Stick to .223 pressure levels and there are generally never any issues.
Solution -
Don't load to or run 'hot' 5.56 pressure level ammo. Stick to .223 pressure levels and there are generally never any issues.
It would require some research on the part of the shooter. It's safer for the firearm industry to error on the side of caution.
hoopharted
10-02-22, 11:26
Solution -
Don't load to or run 'hot' 5.56 pressure level ammo. Stick to .223 pressure levels and there are generally never any issues.
there is nothing out there pertaining to .223 wylde that eludes to avoid any 5.56 ammo , in fact the whole premise behind .223 wylde is to have a rifle chambered in .223 that can safely run 5.56 , no one has written a article stating to only run particular 5.56 loads , that i am aware of anyway , if so please site your source
running .223 in a 5.56 rifle may be safe ,however performance of the .223 round in a 5.56 is degraded somewhat , not drastically , but more like the rd is not performing at its potential , .223 wylde is suppose to bridge that , correct?
show me a test article that says that 5.56 ammo is limited to lower pressure rds in a wylde barrel
It would require some research on the part of the shooter. It's safer for the firearm industry to error on the side of caution.
Last time I tried to shoot 5.56 NATO ammo in a real .223 chamber it was obvious immediately. (no the gun did not explode)
Generally speaking if the ammo is marked 5.56 NATO it is likely 5.56 NATO pressure and if the ammo is marked .223 it is... You get the idea.
Similarly, If loading ones own ammo - You know if your data is for .223 or 5.56 pressure ammo.
The worst case scenario would be a full power 5.56 load, with a long bullet, fired from a brand-new .223 chamber that was cut to tight dimensions, with very little freebore, fired on a hot day, from brass with a lot of neck tension. Such a tight chamber is common on accurized match bolt-action .223 rifles. In such worst case conditions, pressures above 70,000 PSI have been reported. This is close to the proof pressure for .223, so there is potential danger firing 5.56 from a gun with a .223 chamber.
More typically, 5.56 fired from a .223 chamber exhibits classic signs of overpressure, such as excessive brass flow, expanded primer pockets, cracked case necks, stuck cases, hard extraction, and flattened primers. Since not all .223 chambers are the same, some might show overpressure signs with 5.56 while others may not. All these things happen because the brass is indeed no stronger or thicker in 5.56 than it is in .223. It's rated to take the same 55,000 PSI or so, and that's it.
there is nothing out there pertaining to .223 wylde that eludes to avoid any 5.56 ammo , in fact the whole premise behind .223 wylde is to have a rifle chambered in .223 that can safely run 5.56 , no one has written a article stating to only run particular 5.56 loads , that i am aware of anyway , if so please site your source
running .223 in a 5.56 rifle may be safe ,however performance of the .223 round in a 5.56 is degraded somewhat , not drastically , but more like the rd is not performing at its potential , .223 wylde is suppose to bridge that , correct?
show me a test article that says that 5.56 ammo is limited to lower pressure rds in a wylde barrel
The chambers are not all exactly the same.
Compass Lake says this:
The CLE match chamber is basically the same as a .223 SAAMI spec chamber with a modified lead angle in the throat. The CLE chamber has a 1.5 degree lead angle per side where the .223 is over 3 degrees. This allows for less bullet jump with out of the magazine ammo yet still providing an advantageous lead angle for modern high ballistic coefficient bullets. The Wylde chamber is .002 bigger in the cartridge case area and has a longer throat.
On the average the CLE chamber will shoot 23% smaller groups with out of the magazine ammo. The CLE match chamber will give better barrel life due to the shorter throat and gives slightly higher pressure.
There has been no problem shooting PMC, Lake City and IMI .556 Rounds out of the CLE chamber.
It is ultimately up to the shooter to determine the suitability of the ammo in a particular firearm.
My experience tells me that as chambers get tighter your gun (and brass) will tell you real fast when you feed it something that is too hot.
performance of the .223 round in a 5.56 is degraded somewhat , not drastically , but...
hoopharted
10-02-22, 13:34
Last time I tried to shoot 5.56 NATO ammo in a real .223 chamber it was obvious immediately. (no the gun did not explode)
Generally speaking if the ammo is marked 5.56 NATO it is likely 5.56 NATO pressure and if the ammo is marked .223 it is... You get the idea.
Similarly, If loading ones own ammo - You know if your data is for .223 or 5.56 pressure ammo.
not talking about 5.56 in a standard .223 , that is common knowledge , my research when deciding what barrel contradicts what the one member said that you can not run the hotter 5.56 in a Wyle barrel , i found no article or evidence to support that or even hint to that in my research , and i do understand there is no one size fits both , that is physically impossible as the two cartridges are in fact different however slight it may be , but my take away from the reading was Wylde found a sweet spot that allowed the best of both worlds
i was not aware that the .223 wylde was not suitable for carbine length rifles , it should not affect me with an 18 inch barrel with rifle length gas
constructor
10-02-22, 14:49
This chart shows the differences between the chambers. We have been using the Wylde chamber since the early 90s with every kind of ammo made, 99% has been mil spec 5.56. If you look under the JGS 223 Wylde heading you will see that chamber is the same or larger than a 5.56 in every way except for the freebore diameter which aligns the bullet on the bore better increasing accuracy.68973
i was not aware that the .223 wylde was not suitable for carbine length rifles
FFS.
The 10-shot group pictured below was fired from one of my 16" carbines that has a chrome-lined Criterion Core barrel with a 223 Wylde chamber. The 10-shot group has an extreme spread of 1.09".
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/criterion_core_barrel_10_shot_group_55_b-2140659.jpg
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/criterion_core_barrel_stamp_002-2143347.jpg
...
Which is false and which is good? Seems like some guys referenced the guy who came up with the chamber design... I'd assume that would be good info.
Well for starters, the article that you posted the link to claimed that the 223 Wylde was:
"designed for one thing and one thing only 600 yard 80gr single load"
Even though the 223 Wylde was released in 1984 and the 80 grain SMK wasn't invented until 1992.
....
hoopharted
10-02-22, 16:07
This chart shows the differences between the chambers. We have been using the Wylde chamber since the early 90s with every kind of ammo made, 99% has been mil spec 5.56. If you look under the JGS 223 Wylde heading you will see that chamber is the same or larger than a 5.56 in every way except for the freebore diameter which aligns the bullet on the bore better increasing accuracy.68973
thank you
hoopharted
10-02-22, 16:13
FFS.
The 10-shot group pictured below was fired from one of my 16" carbines that has a chrome-lined Criterion Core barrel with a 223 Wylde chamber. The 10-shot group has an extreme spread of 1.09".
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/criterion_core_barrel_10_shot_group_55_b-2140659.jpg
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/criterion_core_barrel_stamp_002-2143347.jpg
...
thank you , i was going off of what someone earlier posted in the thread with that comment , i researched for about a week on .223 wylde , i chose 18 to gain some muzzle velocitywhile keeping it somewhat under control length wise
not talking about 5.56 in a standard .223 , that is common knowledge , my research when deciding what barrel contradicts what the one member said that you can not run the hotter 5.56 in a Wyle barrel , i found no article or evidence to support that or even hint to that in my research , and i do understand there is no one size fits both , that is physically impossible as the two cartridges are in fact different however slight it may be , but my take away from the reading was Wylde found a sweet spot that allowed the best of both worlds
i was not aware that the .223 wylde was not suitable for carbine length rifles , it should not affect me with an 18 inch barrel with rifle length gas
You are still not understanding it.
constructor
10-04-22, 00:23
You are still not understanding it.
It sounds like you are saying don't run hot 5.56 ammo in a Wylde. I've been doing it since the early 90s without any issue and with better accuracy than a 5.56. The Wylde chamber is actually larger than the 5.56. The Wylde works in barrels as short as 10.5" with a carbine gas system shooting everything from m193 to MK262. The "5.56 CLE" is not the same as a Wylde or a 5.56 NATO.
You said in one post "as chambers get tighter" do chambers shrink when they heat up? Since the 5.56 is already smaller in diameter than a Wylde will that cause issues with the 5.56?
Yes I get that not all reamers are made(ground) exactly the same but they are all designed to median dimensions especially the mil spec 5.56 NATO. They all have tolerances, 5.56 and Wylde and when I say 5.56 here I mean the mil spec 5.56 NATO. Some reamer makers are definitely better than others and I know some are not within spec but that is where the barrel maker comes into play. I'm not going to get into names but some still use HSS reamers and then must sand or hone the chambers to get a decent finish. Several years ago I sent 200 barrels back to a company that many think is a great barrel maker. There is no doubt they used HSS reamers, worn or dull. When ordered they were meant to be my budget line. There are two reamer makers in this country that make carbide reamers, one is apx half the cost of the other, some of us pay the premium for better tooling. I hear Manson(possible 3rd maker) may have started making carbide 223 Wylde or 5.56 reamers but has not branched out to other calibers yet but who knows that was a few years ago.
Anyway as I see it, anything you can shoot in a 5.56 can be shot in a Wylde.
A screwed up chamber is a screwed up chamber regardless of the name on it.
constructor
10-04-22, 00:31
so if .223 wylde is suppose to give you the best crossover performance regarding .223 and 5.56 , why is it manufacturers of AR15 rifles simply do not just produce .223 wylde exclusively
I should have commented here before jumping in the middle. Military and most LE will require the 5.56 chamber and many consumers don't understand the Wylde because they have always heard from a friends cousins uncle Bob not to shoot 5.56 ammo in a 223 and well it is called a "223 Wylde".
I should have commented here before jumping in the middle. Military and most LE will require the 5.56 chamber and many consumers don't understand the Wylde because they have always heard from a friends cousins uncle Bob not to shoot 5.56 ammo in a 223 and well it is called a "223 Wylde".
It takes about 30 seconds of research for someone to figure out that isn’t the case with Wylde.
Kind of amazing to me how lazy people are in the world today.
It ain’t rocket science and makes me wonder how people manage to actually wake up in the morning without directions.
It sounds like you are saying don't run hot 5.56 ammo in a Wylde.
I am going along with what the fine people at CLE say about it:
It is ultimately up to the shooter to determine the suitability of the ammo in a particular firearm.
There will definitely be signs if things are not playing well together.
constructor
10-05-22, 09:15
I am going along with what the fine people at CLE say about it:
There will definitely be signs if things are not playing well together.
Are you talking about this-
"The CLE match chamber is basically the same as a .223 SAAMI spec chamber with a modified lead angle in the throat. The CLE chamber has a 1.5 degree lead angle per side where the .223 is over 3 degrees. This allows for less bullet jump with out of the magazine ammo yet still providing an advantageous lead angle for modern high ballistic coefficient bullets. The Wylde chamber is .002 bigger in the cartridge case area and has a longer throat.
On the average the CLE chamber will shoot 23% smaller groups with out of the magazine ammo. The CLE match chamber will give better barrel life due to the shorter throat and gives slightly higher pressure.
There has been no problem shooting PMC, Lake City and IMI .556 Rounds out of the CLE chamber.
It is ultimately up to the shooter to determine the suitability of the ammo in a particular firearm."
The Remington 223 chamber is not the same as a "223 Wylde"
Which is not the same as a 5.56 CLE
which is not the same as a 5.56 NATO
As far as handling pressure they should be rated
Rem 223-lowest
5.56 CLE-same freebore length as Rem 223 but relaxed leade angle
223 Wylde- largest chamber size by a thou or 2 and length to lands .036" longer than the 5.56 CLE
5.56 NATO-slightly smaller chamber than a 223 Wylde but length to the lands .022" longer than the Wylde.
CLE is saying the 5.56 CLE should shoot all mil spec 5.56 NATO ammo- From my experience it will as will the 223 Wylde.
The 5.56 CLE chamber will usually produce better accuracy with 77gr ammo like "Razorcore". I've handloaded 62gr greentips and seen decent accuracy but most M855 ammo shoots 1 1/2"-3".
The only problem with the CLE chamber that I have seen is when someone loaded 69gr SMKs to 2.28", the blunt smk were hitting the lands. The 5.56 CLE chamber can be very accurate but you must be careful about the OAL. Anything loaded to 2.26 is fine but some mags will allow 2.28" and some bullets will be stuffed into the lands at 2.28".
so if .223 wylde is suppose to give you the best crossover performance regarding .223 and 5.56 , why is it manufacturers of AR15 rifles simply do not just produce .223 wylde exclusively
Because in technical terms, 556 nato shoots best from a 556nato cut chamber, 223rem shoots best from a 223rem cut chamber. The Wylde folks can shoot both 556nato and 223rem out of the same barrel, but perhaps a bit less "best" vs the dedicated cut. Yes, 223 can fire out of 556 chamber, but a bit worse than out of the Wylde.
That's the technical definitions of it. How that translates into practical use depends on many factors, like crap barrel and/or chamber, etc. A loose Wylde is likely way wrose than a tight 556, etc. Let's re-phrase that, "A loose [put you word here] is likely way worse than a tight [put your word here]". Like "hot super model", and "fugly". You get the point.
constructor
10-05-22, 11:36
Because in technical terms, 556 nato shoots best from a 556nato cut chamber, 223rem shoots best from a 223rem cut chamber. The Wylde folks can shoot both 556nato and 223rem out of the same barrel, but perhaps a bit less "best" vs the dedicated cut. Yes, 223 can fire out of 556 chamber, but a bit worse than out of the Wylde.
That's the technical definitions of it. How that translates into practical use depends on many factors, like crap barrel and/or chamber, etc. A loose Wylde is likely way wrose than a tight 556, etc. Let's re-phrase that, "A loose [put you word here] is likely way worse than a tight [put your word here]". Like "hot super model", and "fugly". You get the point.
Sorry that is not correct. The Wylde has a bullet diameter freebore which aligns the bullet on the bore better. The brass case does not touch the sides of the chamber because the wylde chamber freebore holds it on the center of the bore. A 5.56 chamber with a loose freebore can allow the whole cartridge to lay low in the chamber and even tilt rear low front high possibly allowing the bullet to engage the lands at an angle.
Sorry that is not correct. The Wylde has a bullet diameter freebore which aligns the bullet on the bore better. The brass case does not touch the sides of the chamber because the wylde chamber freebore holds it on the center of the bore. A 5.56 chamber with a loose freebore can allow the whole cartridge to lay low in the chamber and even tilt rear low front high possibly allowing the bullet to engage the lands at an angle.
Well, you went to the opposite end, "loose 556".
Chamber cutters vary. By standard specs, is a loose Wylde cut still better than a tight 556cut, for shooting 556? I may be wrong, thus asking the question.
constructor
10-05-22, 15:36
Well, you went to the opposite end, "loose 556".
Chamber cutters vary. By standard specs, is a loose Wylde cut still better than a tight 556cut, for shooting 556? I may be wrong, thus asking the question.
I don't mean a loose(larger than the designed size) 5.56 NATO, they are all loose. As far as what makes the chamber accurate the design of the freebore in the 5.56 NATO is loose. .002" larger in diameter than the 223 Wylde. If the reamer for 5.56 NATO was .001" small and the reamer for the 223 Wylde was .001" large they would be the same size but it's crazy to try to assume that would happen and buy a barrel based off of that assumption.
constructor
10-05-22, 16:19
Just an opinion- I don't see any reason to buy a Rem 223 chambered barrel unless you are buying a complete bolt action rifle and plan to shoot Rem 223 ammo/light varmint bullets.
*If your only use will be carbine classes, mag dumps and combat and will never mount a scope (other than a LPVO) or shoot off the bench then a 5.56 NATO will probably work just fine.
*If you plan to use a scope, shoot off the bench or shoot varmints at longer distances or reload for accuracy then the 223 Wylde may be the choice but, if you want to use factory seconds(bullets that are over .224" diameter or are not perfectly round you may have issues. Oversized bullets may stick in the freebore. It will shoot any 5.56 ammo including MK262 as long as the barrel does not have 6 groove rifling with a 50:50 land to groove ratio or chromelining that has made the bore area small. Same goes for the 5.56 NATO.
*It's highly unlikely you will find the 5.56 CLE made in large batches, it is more of a custom chamber. I made and sold them for the last 3-4 years but I am retiring. That chamber is good for 62-77gr bullets loaded to mag length.
I don't mean a loose(larger than the designed size) 5.56 NATO, they are all loose. As far as what makes the chamber accurate the design of the freebore in the 5.56 NATO is loose. .002" larger in diameter than the 223 Wylde. If the reamer for 5.56 NATO was .001" small and the reamer for the 223 Wylde was .001" large they would be the same size but it's crazy to try to assume that would happen and buy a barrel based off of that assumption.
I not saying to buy based on actual specs cut. Can std joe mic a chamber? It's not easy to do.
The cutteres never hit the middle of +- of the cut specs. Cuts will be above and below the middle, yet still within specs as long as it's not outside the +-, etc.
Just an opinion- I don't see any reason to buy a Rem 223 chambered barrel unless you are buying a complete bolt action rifle and plan to shoot Rem 223 ammo/light varmint bullets.
*If your only use will be carbine classes, mag dumps and combat and will never mount a scope (other than a LPVO) or shoot off the bench then a 5.56 NATO will probably work just fine.
*If you plan to use a scope, shoot off the bench or shoot varmints at longer distances or reload for accuracy then the 223 Wylde may be the choice but, if you want to use factory seconds(bullets that are over .224" diameter or are not perfectly round you may have issues. Oversized bullets may stick in the freebore. It will shoot any 5.56 ammo including MK262 as long as the barrel does not have 6 groove rifling with a 50:50 land to groove ratio or chromelining that has made the bore area small. Same goes for the 5.56 NATO.
*It's highly unlikely you will find the 5.56 CLE made in large batches, it is more of a custom chamber. I made and sold them for the last 3-4 years but I am retiring. That chamber is good for 62-77gr bullets loaded to mag length.
I just wondering why after many years of the 223rem case and chamber specs being developed, we now have something better?
Does a round of 223rem shoot best from a 223rem cut chamber, or does 223rem ammo shoot better out of 556 or Wylde cut chamber? If the latter then why the original 223rem chamber spec, did they goof on the original spec?
I not making a challenge here, just trying to understand the arguments being made.
then why the original 223rem chamber spec, did they goof on the original spec?
My guess is the original 223 chamber was fine for what it was. But to wring higher velocity and pressure for the 5.56 round, the leade was lengthened to allow some blow by/bleed off.
As far as what the wylde is supposed to accomplish, I don't know. Apparently the info in the original Wylde Chamber thread isn't accurate.
My guess is the original 223 chamber was fine for what it was. But to wring higher velocity and pressure for the 5.56 round, the leade was lengthened to allow some blow by/bleed off.
But for the 556nato round, use a 556nato chamber.
For the most part, I see Wylde simply allows both rounds from same chamber cut, but assumably that's better than 223 ammo in 556 chamber.
I still not sure what a Wylde does better vs 223 ammo in 223 chamber, or vs 556 ammo in 556 chamber.
556 and Wylde both allow 223 and 556.
constructor
11-01-22, 16:41
But for the 556nato round, use a 556nato chamber.
For the most part, I see Wylde simply allows both rounds from same chamber cut, but assumably that's better than 223 ammo in 556 chamber.
I still not sure what a Wylde does better vs 223 ammo in 223 chamber, or vs 556 ammo in 556 chamber.
556 and Wylde both allow 223 and 556.
All SAAMI chambers are designed with the public in mind so many different bullets work Okay.
The 5.56 was designed larger(chamber size) for reliability and to allow them to push a 55gr bullet to a certain velocity which I believe was 3150 from a 20" A1 barrel.
Bill Wylde designed the 223 Wylde to shoot a particular bullet in highpower comps. I had always heard it was the 69gr SMK loaded long and single fed but some recent articles say it was a Canadian made 62gr. The freebore in the Wylde is bullet diameter to align the bullet on the bore better and get better accuracy.
The thing is wildcatter can design a different chamber for every bullet made. If they use 2.28" or 2.26" as a maximum load length and then work backwards to where the PT(point of tangent/base of ogive) of the bullet would be. Many say best accuracy is achieved when the bullet is .020" off the lands but others will argue it's best when jammed .005" into the lands although that isn't very good practice when shooting from an auto loader.
One chamber for all will never be as accurate as a purpose designed chamber. Take the 5.56 Compass lake for example. that chamber works very well with 77gr bullets loaded to mag length(Razorcore, MK262 etc), you can't shoot little 38-52gr bullets loaded to mag length in that chamber because they will be jammed into the lands. Experienced reloaders understand little blunt bullets must be set back because the ogive is not as long.
ETA- Do you understand the concept of "sloppy seconds"? There's your 5.56 chamber.
One More Time
11-01-22, 17:22
Bill Wylde designed the 223 Wylde to shoot a particular bullet in highpower comps. I had always heard it was the 69gr SMK loaded long and single fed but some recent articles say it was a Canadian made 62gr. The freebore in the Wylde is bullet diameter to align the bullet on the bore better and get better accuracy.
https://i.imgur.com/8k9Ww83l.png
The Remington 223 chamber is not the same as a "223 Wylde"
Which is not the same as a 5.56 CLE
which is not the same as a 5.56 NATO
As far as handling pressure they should be rated
Rem 223-lowest
5.56 CLE-same freebore length as Rem 223 but relaxed leade angle
223 Wylde- largest chamber size by a thou or 2 and length to lands .036" longer than the 5.56 CLE
5.56 NATO-slightly smaller chamber than a 223 Wylde but length to the lands .022" longer than the Wylde.
Pappabear’s Tikka thread got me thinking about CIP, so I looked up CIP .223 chamber dimensions knowing (well, believing) that they make no distinction between 5.56 and .223. It looks like the CIP chamber is designed with some of the same philosophy as Wylde… a much longer .224 freebore than SAAMI .223 Rem, although they went with a 3* angle, presumably for blunter ogives. In your opinion, where do you think the CIP chamber falls in all of this?
This chart shows the differences between the chambers. We have been using the Wylde chamber since the early 90s with every kind of ammo made, 99% has been mil spec 5.56. If you look under the JGS 223 Wylde heading you will see that chamber is the same or larger than a 5.56 in every way except for the freebore diameter which aligns the bullet on the bore better increasing accuracy.68973
Can std joe mic a chamber? It's not easy to do.
Take a look at the chart Constructor posted. You’ll see that the freebore diameter is larger on the 5.56 chambers than the .223 and various “match” chambers. Ned Christiansen sells a gauge that will fit in a .2265” freebore, but not in a .224” one. It also has a longer part of the gauge that goes forward to where the rifling starts, because remember that the rifling doesn’t just suddenly start; there is a terribly small angle, like 1.2-3*. Anyway, the gauge is super easy for any layperson to use, though the necessity is debatable. Its simpler to check than headspace, though. Essentially, if it goes in but doesn’t fall out, its not 5.56 NATO.
Pappabear’s Tikka thread got me thinking about CIP, so I looked up CIP .223 chamber dimensions knowing (well, believing) that they make no distinction between 5.56 and .223. It looks like the CIP chamber is designed with some of the same philosophy as Wylde… a much longer .224 freebore than SAAMI .223 Rem, although they went with a 3* angle, presumably for blunter ogives. In your opinion, where do you think the CIP chamber falls in all of this?
Take a look at the chart Constructor posted. You’ll see that the freebore diameter is larger on the 5.56 chambers than the .223 and various “match” chambers. Ned Christiansen sells a gauge that will fit in a .2265” freebore, but not in a .224” one. It also has a longer part of the gauge that goes forward to where the rifling starts, because remember that the rifling doesn’t just suddenly start; there is a terribly small angle, like 1.2-3*. Anyway, the gauge is super easy for any layperson to use, though the necessity is debatable. Its simpler to check than headspace, though. Essentially, if it goes in but doesn’t fall out, its not 5.56 NATO.
But for the argumnet at hand, we are comparing 223rem, 556nato, Wylde.
There are other chamber cuts, but not sure we should pull those in to this discussion.
If as noted in other reply, the 556 is "sloppy seconds", then why do people choose 556 chamber barrels over just 223rem if 223 ammo is the goto round?
My basic argument was, for "best" overall performance, shoot std 223rem ammo out of a 223rem chamber, shoot std 556nato ammo out of 556nato chamber. Choose Wylde if you want to fire both ammo out of same barrel.
I assume we could debate for many years when you toss in the other chamber cuts, reloads, etc.
My basic argument was, for "best" overall performance, shoot std 223rem ammo out of a 223rem chamber, shoot std 556nato ammo out of 556nato chamber. Choose Wylde if you want to fire both ammo out of same barrel,
For me, I'd never want a .223 because I want every rifle to be 5.56 pressure friendly. The practical accuracy of the 5.56 chamber is plenty good. Most barrels we run will hold around MOA. The Wylde is my pest chamber because it doesn't handle 5.56 pressure as well as the 5.56 chamber.
That's just my personal synopsis of the situation.
constructor
11-02-22, 19:10
But for the argumnet at hand, we are comparing 223rem, 556nato, Wylde.
There are other chamber cuts, but not sure we should pull those in to this discussion.
If as noted in other reply, the 556 is "sloppy seconds", then why do people choose 556 chamber barrels over just 223rem if 223 ammo is the goto round?
My basic argument was, for "best" overall performance, shoot std 223rem ammo out of a 223rem chamber, shoot std 556nato ammo out of 556nato chamber. Choose Wylde if you want to fire both ammo out of same barrel.
I assume we could debate for many years when you toss in the other chamber cuts, reloads, etc.
I am not concerned what anyone chooses because it doesn't affect my shooting. Think of like this, most women can put gas in a car, turn the key and drive it down the street without hitting anything but ask them how they really work and they don't have a clue, most guys with guns are about the same way.
ETA- I don't think you will find many ARs chambered in 223 Rem unless they are big bull barrel varmint rifles, most will be chambered in 5.56 and that is why most use them. I think you will find barrels with high performance rifling and of better quality in 223 Wylde.
I've fired my best 600-yard scores with .223 Wylde chambers. Results count.
I've fired my best 600-yard scores with .223 Wylde chambers. Results count.
What ammo?
For me, I'd never want a .223 because I want every rifle to be 5.56 pressure friendly. The practical accuracy of the 5.56 chamber is plenty good. Most barrels we run will hold around MOA. The Wylde is my pest chamber because it doesn't handle 5.56 pressure as well as the 5.56 chamber.
That's just my personal synopsis of the situation.
The "dual-ness" of Wylde and 556 chamber is obvious. That's not really the question or argument being made.
Let's say 16-20" barrel, do I get better accuracy and precision using 223rem ammo in 223rem chamber, or 223rem ammo in 556nato chamber, or 556nato ammo in 556nato chamber, or 556nato ammo in Wylde, or 223rem ammo in Wylde? Which combo is overall "best"?
10-shot group of 223 Remington ammunition fired from a semi-automatic AR-15 that has a 223 Remington chambered barrel . . .
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/55_blitzking_from_223_krieger_at_100_yar-2575897.jpg
.....
.
Let's say 16-20" barrel, do I get better accuracy and precision using 223rem ammo in 223rem chamber, maybe. But then you would be limited to weak ammo. And Wylde would likely be just as good, and allow real ammo, as well.
or 223rem ammo in 556nato chamber, probably not.
or 556nato ammo in 556nato chamber, probably not… what “5.56 NATO” ammo has a huge say in this.
or 556nato ammo in Wylde, maybe, see above.
or 223rem ammo in Wylde? maybe.
Which combo is overall "best"? It depends on what is important to you. You seem to be agonizing over something that has already been adequately explained, so I have to ask: why is this a big deal for you? Are you trying to buy a new barrel and are unsure? Buying an OIP duty gun? Are you an inquisitive user of commercial ammo? A competitive handloader? Trying to shoot tiny groups like Molon? Buying your first AR? Just curious? Did you examine the chart that Constructor posted?
constructor
11-04-22, 09:41
I didn't take it as DwayneZ was trying to decide for himself, if that is the case I should have answered differently.
I little background on me as if my opinions matter LOL. I received my first gunsmith cert in 79, started designing wildcats/chambers in 1982. Worked as an engineer in another field for 25 years. In 2007 I started AR Performance to make higher quality/accurate barrels. 2009 I figured out I could not stand in front of a lathe 8-10 hrs a day and turn out 2 barrels a day. I decided to use what I knew about benchrest and highpower barrels and incorporate those ideas into a production barrel line. Pretty much retired now.
If a friend asked me which widely available chamber he should use in an AR to shoot various kinds of ammo I would say a 223 Wylde every time. If he had a SAW or other lmg I would say the 5.56.
I have a few HK 93s that have 5.56 chambers but other than those I have not owned a firearm that has had a 223 or 5.56 chamber in them since the mid 90s. Again just 1 opinion.
ETA- All 223 Wylde barrels are not of the same quality. I would not choose a 6 groove 7 twist barrel if I had a choice of that and other high performance rifling designs.
What ammo?
80g Sierra Match Kings and Varget.
I have one .223 Wylde chambered barrel all the rest are 5.56. I try to buy all 5.56 ammo usually 55 grain. My uses are 2 gun with ranges usually in the 300m and closer distances. Usual targets are steel IPSC and 2/3 IPSC.
My .223 Wylde is on my dedicated irons sights upper and I am very, very happy with it's accuracy. It's a 16" SS BA mid gas barrel and it is over gassed so the recoil isn't what it could be but I can't complain about accuracy.
I've fired my best 600-yard scores with .223 Wylde chambers. Results count.
Do you even HAVE any .223rem match barrels / chambers that you compared to?
constructor
11-10-22, 08:23
Do you even HAVE any .223rem match barrels / chambers that you compared to?
JMO- The specs that affect accuracy are pretty much the same as the Wylde, freebore diameter, length and throat angle. The biggest difference between it and the wylde are diameter at the base which will make brass last longer in the RM chamber and diameter at the neck which may also make the brass last longer but you would need to make sure the thickness of the brass at the neck is more consistent and thinner like Lapua 223 brass. Some military 5.56 brass with thick necks could cause problems in a 223 RM chamber.
In addition the smaller diameter of the chamber in the RM will decrease chamber volume and raise chamber pressures, not enough to be dangerous but still 2-4000psi by my quick calculation.
The RM chamber in a bolt gun with Lapua brass and loads tailored to that chamber would be a good combo but, have JGS, Manson or Clymer grind the reamer.
ETA- with the understanding that the 223RM chamber is a specific design and different than the common 223 Rem.
Do you even HAVE any .223rem match barrels / chambers that you compared to?
CLE match barrel.
constructor
11-10-22, 10:17
Keep in mind a 223 Rem Match (.068"FB 1.5*throat)is a different design than a 5.56 CLE(.025" FB) and is different from a Rem 223(.025" FB 3* throat) and different from a 223 Wylde(.062"FB).
ETA if Frank White(CLE) makes a "223 Match" different from his 5.56 CLE or 223 Rem Match I have not seen the design specs. Between Manson, Clymer, JGS and PTG there are probably over a hundred custom 223/5.56 chambers on file, I had 2 myself.
Keep in mind a 223 Rem Match (.068"FB 1.5*throat)is a different design than a 5.56 CLE(.025" FB) and is different from a Rem 223(.025" FB 3* throat) and different from a 223 Wylde(.062"FB).
ETA if Frank White(CLE) makes a "223 Match" different from his 5.56 CLE or 223 Rem Match I have not seen the design specs. Between Manson, Clymer, JGS and PTG there are probably over a hundred custom 223/5.56 chambers on file, I had 2 myself.
All those different freebore dimensions makes it difficult to use a shared load recipe that is known to shoot well in a rifle with a different chamber. I could not come up with a good reload that would shoot well in the CLE match barrel, so I copied the barrel and load other people were using successfully.
I don't have the equipment to precisely measure the differences in match chambers, so I have to rely on collected reload data and down range scores. This thread has been an education.
I didn't take it as DwayneZ was trying to decide for himself, if that is the case I should have answered differently.
I little background on me as if my opinions matter LOL. I received my first gunsmith cert in 79, started designing wildcats/chambers in 1982. Worked as an engineer in another field for 25 years. In 2007 I started AR Performance to make higher quality/accurate barrels. 2009 I figured out I could not stand in front of a lathe 8-10 hrs a day and turn out 2 barrels a day. I decided to use what I knew about benchrest and highpower barrels and incorporate those ideas into a production barrel line. Pretty much retired now.
If a friend asked me which widely available chamber he should use in an AR to shoot various kinds of ammo I would say a 223 Wylde every time. If he had a SAW or other lmg I would say the 5.56.
I have a few HK 93s that have 5.56 chambers but other than those I have not owned a firearm that has had a 223 or 5.56 chamber in them since the mid 90s. Again just 1 opinion.
ETA- All 223 Wylde barrels are not of the same quality. I would not choose a 6 groove 7 twist barrel if I had a choice of that and other high performance rifling designs.
Thanks.
Right, I not debating for me, I was asking questions about Wylde vs NATO vs Rem cuts, and the ammo that fits them. And to boot, there's more cuts than just those 3.
Thanks.
Right, I not debating for me, I was asking questions about Wylde vs NATO vs Rem cuts, and the ammo that fits them. And to boot, there's more cuts than just those 3.
The answers to my questions that Constructor replied to would help us help you.
The answers to my questions that Constructor replied to would help us help you.
Yes, I read all that.
Yes, I read all that. But no answers. Enjoy being deliberately obtuse. Some people can’t be helped.
But no answers. Enjoy being deliberately obtuse. Some people can’t be helped.
I think you missing what I posted. #54 was just saying my ealier posts were debating the best setup in context of Wylde.
You keep saying I am not getting it.
No, I got it.
I think you missing what I posted. #54 was just saying my ealier posts were debating the best setup in context of Wylde.
You keep saying I am not getting it.
No, I got it.
Sorry I attacked you yesterday; it was unnecessary.
Sorry I attacked you yesterday; it was unnecessary.
I did not read it as attack. ;)
It just seemed to read as if you missed the context I was replying in.
All good.
ETA- All 223 Wylde barrels are not of the same quality. I would not choose a 6 groove 7 twist barrel if I had a choice of that and other high performance rifling designs.
I’m curious about this statement, why this is the case? Is it the 6 groove or the 7 twist? Or both as a combination?
I’m asking mostly because Criterion uses 6 groove but it’s 8 twist.
BufordTJustice
12-03-22, 12:23
I didn't take it as DwayneZ was trying to decide for himself, if that is the case I should have answered differently.
I little background on me as if my opinions matter LOL. I received my first gunsmith cert in 79, started designing wildcats/chambers in 1982. Worked as an engineer in another field for 25 years. In 2007 I started AR Performance to make higher quality/accurate barrels. 2009 I figured out I could not stand in front of a lathe 8-10 hrs a day and turn out 2 barrels a day. I decided to use what I knew about benchrest and highpower barrels and incorporate those ideas into a production barrel line. Pretty much retired now.
If a friend asked me which widely available chamber he should use in an AR to shoot various kinds of ammo I would say a 223 Wylde every time. If he had a SAW or other lmg I would say the 5.56.
I have a few HK 93s that have 5.56 chambers but other than those I have not owned a firearm that has had a 223 or 5.56 chamber in them since the mid 90s. Again just 1 opinion.
ETA- All 223 Wylde barrels are not of the same quality. I would not choose a 6 groove 7 twist barrel if I had a choice of that and other high performance rifling designs.
I've heard anecdotal reports that 1/7 can increase throat erosion rate in stainless barrel steels.
Is this a) a thing
&/or
b) could this be part of what you are alluding to?
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I've heard anecdotal reports that 1/7 can increase throat erosion rate in stainless barrel steels.
Is this a) a thing
&/or
b) could this be part of what you are alluding to?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Those questions are specific to Wylde cut?
BufordTJustice
12-05-22, 12:04
Those questions are specific to Wylde cut?
No. Really directed toward 1:7 and any uncoated stainless barrel.
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constructor
12-05-22, 14:11
I’m curious about this statement, why this is the case? Is it the 6 groove or the 7 twist? Or both as a combination?
I’m asking mostly because Criterion uses 6 groove but it’s 8 twist.
Most barrels use an enfield rifling design, just square lands, Others use 5R, 3R or a true polygon like HK, Glock and Lothar. The design alone can make a difference, 5R, 3R or poly can produce faster velocity with less copper fouling.
Some 6 groove barrels have lands the same width as the grooves so those are a 50:50 Land to groove ratio, they will produce a higher engraving force and a higher peak pressure. Those guys that handload for maximum velocity can get more velocity by using rifling designs that are 25:75 L-G ratio and a 5r, 3r or poly. On top of that some cartridges have specific bore area specs and the 6 groove 50:50 barrels will not meet the bore area specs causing higher(over max) peak pressures when shooting ammo like the Mk262.
Barrel companies like 6 groove with a 50:50 because it's easier and faster to pull a button through, saving them money.
As an example, you know how company X comes out with a new cartridge and say they get 2800fps but when ammo companies start loading ammo they can't get as much velocity and everyone says the cartridge was hyped up. Some of that has to do with poor barrel design or manufacturing including reamers that are not to spec. When the AMU came out with the 6.8 and tested it they used Douglas barrels with a 4 groove 25:75 L-G ratio they got apx 2800fps with 115gr bullets out of a 20" barrel. When Remington and others started loading they could not get close. After a lot of testing we found it was due to barrels with bad specs. A company thought to have an "In" with the military produced a bunch of barrels with 6 groove 50:50 L-G ratio, they blew primers all over the place. I only know 2 brands of barrels for sure that meet the SAAMI spec bore area for the 6.8.
BufordTJustice
12-05-22, 16:01
Most barrels use an enfield rifling design, just square lands, Others use 5R, 3R or a true polygon like HK, Glock and Lothar. The design alone can make a difference, 5R, 3R or poly can produce faster velocity with less copper fouling.
Some 6 groove barrels have lands the same width as the grooves so those are a 50:50 Land to groove ratio, they will produce a higher engraving force and a higher peak pressure. Those guys that handload for maximum velocity can get more velocity by using rifling designs that are 25:75 L-G ratio and a 5r, 3r or poly. On top of that some cartridges have specific bore area specs and the 6 groove 50:50 barrels will not meet the bore area specs causing higher(over max) peak pressures when shooting ammo like the Mk262.
Barrel companies like 6 groove with a 50:50 because it's easier and faster to pull a button through, saving them money.
As an example, you know how company X comes out with a new cartridge and say they get 2800fps but when ammo companies start loading ammo they can't get as much velocity and everyone says the cartridge was hyped up. Some of that has to do with poor barrel design or manufacturing including reamers that are not to spec. When the AMU came out with the 6.8 and tested it they used Douglas barrels with a 4 groove 25:75 L-G ratio they got apx 2800fps with 115gr bullets out of a 20" barrel. When Remington and others started loading they could not get close. After a lot of testing we found it was due to barrels with bad specs. A company thought to have an "In" with the military produced a bunch of barrels with 6 groove 50:50 L-G ratio, they blew primers all over the place. I only know 2 brands of barrels for sure that meet the SAAMI spec bore area for the 6.8.
Fascinating.
Thank you, sir. [emoji106]
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Most barrels use an enfield rifling design, just square lands, Others use 5R, 3R or a true polygon like HK, Glock and Lothar. The design alone can make a difference, 5R, 3R or poly can produce faster velocity with less copper fouling.
As an example, you know how company X comes out with a new cartridge and say they get 2800fps but when ammo companies start loading ammo they can't get as much velocity and everyone says the cartridge was hyped up. Some of that has to do with poor barrel design or manufacturing including reamers that are not to spec.
Well, the ammo industry should define a standard by which ammo can be tested to. The std square 6 groove 20" should be one (including the type of finish), and then perhaps something of higher quality (5R or whatever). Until there is a standard that includes those specific details, then we'll just keep getting "hyped" data.
Constructor, any thoughts on CIP .223 chambers? My earlier question kinda got lost in the noise, I think.
constructor
12-08-22, 15:12
Constructor, any thoughts on CIP .223 chambers? My earlier question kinda got lost in the noise, I think.
Sorry, I have never tested one.
constructor
12-08-22, 15:14
Well, the ammo industry should define a standard by which ammo can be tested to. The std square 6 groove 20" should be one (including the type of finish), and then perhaps something of higher quality (5R or whatever). Until there is a standard that includes those specific details, then we'll just keep getting "hyped" data.
SAAMI does define a standard and it is in the specs of the cartridge. The people making bad barrels that dont meet the spec are the ones not getting it. It isn't hyped data it is people that don't understand, thinking it is hyped data.
This is the SAAMI 223 specs, there is no SAAMI 5.56. lower right hand corner it says "4 grooves .1767 wide" "minimum bore area .0737 SI". Any company making 6 groove barrels with less than .0737SI bore area is making them out of spec. As I said before very few 6 groove barrels meet the spec in any cartridge and it seems most cartridge specs are based on Douglas 4 groove barrels.
69334
Thanks for the time and knowledge here Constructor. Great info.
Constructor-I'd like to echo what Ironman said. Awesome info.
BufordTJustice
12-10-22, 17:08
Thanks for the time and knowledge here Constructor. Great info.
Thirded. I'm learning a lot here.
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This thread has good info, how does it compare to this write-up regarding chamber cuts and accuracy? And, the write-up seems to praise 11deg crowns for helping accuracy/grouping.
https://ar15barrels.com/accuracy.shtml
The Tech docs are also good reads.
https://ar15barrels.com/tech.shtml
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