View Full Version : News FLASH: Organic Chemistry is HARD!!!
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-06-22, 11:16
https://nypost.com/2022/10/04/nyu-professor-allegedly-fired-after-students-say-class-was-too-hard/
Had to laugh at this one. I actually have a Chemistry degree. “Orgo” is hard, but mainly in that it is hard work. There aren’t any concepts or math that are too dense- it is more like a history class- lots of mechanism on how reactions happen due to a ‘why’ that you can apply to other reactions. So it builds on what you learned in intro chemistry and then builds onto itself. Like building scaffolding. You really can’t skip parts and have the ‘whole picture’. Just like if you have holes in your understanding of history, it is hard to put a complete system together. So for kids with short-attention spans, it is going to be a killer.
Lot’s a functional groups in orgo - IE lots of flash cards and repetitions to get it. And I didn’t ‘get’ it because I was 20 years old and had found out how easy girls and beer are while how hard orgo is. I got through it, but not with flying colors.
How hard is the class? I still remember the name of the text book (Morrison&Boyd) and that your notes would be unintelligible if you didn’t use a 4 color click pen. That this proff wrote his own book on it says something about his hubris.
Organic chemistry isn’t easy, like I said- but it is more of forced march- keep up and you’ll get through it. Orgo pain fades when you take Physical Chemistry the next year. Sound simple? ‘P-Chem’ is a mind-bender. Hard work- and truly mentally taxing. I remember part of it as an intro to quantum mechanics. All of the stuff that you learned in intro-chem that they told you not to worry about (like why orbitals are shaped like they are), you now DO have to worry about.
Interestingly, for as tough and dense that Orgo is, something that you spend two days on are the basis for billion dollar industries. That and when I volunteered in an ER, the attending ER doc said that the only thing that remembered was “THe back-side attack”…. Odd dude. ER doc who rode Harley’s…
I wonder how many of those students are there based on “equity” and not qualifications.
Regular chemistry was hard. Balancing the equation kicked my ass. I couldn't tell how many atoms of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen goes where.
I barely passed the two required chemistry classes in my curriculum.
Reading that I feel like the truth probably falls somewhere in the middle. I liked Orgo in that there was essentially no math, no horrible formulas to remember, and such. Those did well in basic chem I/II often did poorly in ergo and vise versa. All of them come together in bio chem, which (1) makes the prior courses seem easy and (2) I found bio chem the most interesting and useful chem course by far.
Teacher wise, I had such an experience. First bio chem teacher was just an A hole, hated his teaching style, everyone disliked the guy, and I and others dropped before it was on the grades. I and others did make sure the school was aware he was crap at his job, and he was not asked to return the following semester. That was really hard and depressing for me, as I had been doing OK in chem (B average) to that point, and felt like a failure for dropping it.
I then, as luck would have it, changed schools, and took bio chem with one of the most respected bio chem proffs, who was in his mid 70s or so, and discovered the Cori Cycle along with the Cori's (also known as the lactic acid cycle ), and he was a great teacher I will never forget. I always remember his name, Harold Nussbaum (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007/07/nussbaum-dies-at-81/).
His back story was also legend, a German Jew refugee, who returned to Germany as a member of the 78th U.S. Army Infantry Division during World War II to kick some Nazi A$$. He was old school, tough as nails, did not suffer fools in his class, and would do anything for you if he felt you were doing your best but struggling, which I was.
He would meet me for lunch on campus, and tutor me every week, after I told him not doing well in his class was not an option ( I got like a 75 on the first test) and I'd pass it or die trying. I have never put so much time and effort as I did to pass that class, but for me, it was the line in the sand time: If I could not pass it, I had no business being there, and that's exactly what that course was intended for for those who planned to go to med school, which was most in that class.
Due to his help and support, I pulled B from the class, which was the min grade required any med school would even consider you, and the required grade for the degree and overall GPA required. It might not be like passing BUDs, but for me, it was a proud moment in that it told me yes, I had what it took to be there, and nothing after that would stop me...
Next class after that was called "molecular and biochemical physiology" and I learned there were even more difficult courses, but I also knew by then if I put my mind to it, I get it done and did.
Point being, course like that hard difficult enough, and a good/bad proff will make or break you there.
Regular chemistry was hard. Balancing the equation kicked my ass. I couldn't tell how many atoms of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen goes where.
I barely passed the two required chemistry classes in my curriculum.
Let me say this about that, when you get to bio chem, you'd kill for one of those "easy" tests you took in general chem. It's an intel dump like little else. It's all you learned in general I/II, Orgo I/II and a lot lot lot more. What saved me, was it's also incredibly interesting and applicable, vs the others where you don't see any real relevance there. If it had not been so damn interesting, I would not have passed it.
Balancing equations and such, my B's would have been A's if not for the math and equations. Math has always been my Achilles heel.
My son recently got his masters in electrical engineering & was always amazed looking at his studies...seemed like upside down / backward hieroglyphics with chinese hand writing & some wavy lines thrown in. Came easy to him.
Funny how the brain works as when it came to something mechanical using your hands, the kid was hopeless...putting together a desk ordered online was like asking him to perform heart surgery with instructions written in crayon.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-06-22, 12:31
Agree with Will on the intro/orgo difference in mental ability. Bio-chem, which I took for fun my senior year 2nd semester, I didn’t as a chem major- but that is like building on orgo- and nut just remembering the reactions, but like you said, the cycle of them. I (don’t) remember the Kreb’s cycle…. I vaguely remember being give 50 amino-acids/proteins and having to figure out the charge on them at different pHs. I knew I was in a buzz-saw when the proff said that the Bio-chem class was lifted straight from the med-school, and he brought in another proff to teach part of it because they knew it better…. I did like the class because it is as close as I got to understanding (or having the tools to) understand cellular biology at its most basic.
On the ‘building’ of one class on another, from what I understand once you get into med school, the head-scratcher there is the kidneys and all those reactions and membranes.
Ah, “The Science”. “Believe the Science”. I’ve spent enough time interacting with politicians and National Labs on simple things to just shake my head everytime I hear those phrases.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-06-22, 12:33
My son recently got his masters in electrical engineering & was always amazed looking at his studies...seemed like upside down / backward hieroglyphics with chinese hand writing & some wavy lines thrown in. Came easy to him.
Funny how the brain works as when it came to something mechanical using your hands, the kid was hopeless...putting together a desk ordered online was like asking him to perform heart surgery with instructions written in crayon.
I couldn’t get electronics/electricity in physics classes. The physical part- like throw someone off a cliff and they throw a ball and you have to calculate where everything goes- no problem. Wheat-stone bridge was a Bridge too Far….
Guess college has changed. My P-Chem professor wrote "Flunk now and avoid the rush" on the board the first week of class. And he was the nicest P-Chem professor at a school where everyone had to take P-Chem.
. I vaguely remember being give 50 amino-acids/proteins and having to figure out the charge on them at different pHs.
Protonation/deprotonation of amino acids is one of the weed out concepts for many aspiring Physicians at my college.
That and Orgo 2 with the something like 50 mechanisms are the first real gutchecks for pre-meds.
I remember using Morrison & Boyd, every single premed student has to take organic and get an A/B+ to get into med school. Organic was just brute memorization and really not THAT hard, Physical Chemistry was waaaay more difficult.
I remember using Morrison & Boyd, every single premed student has to take organic and get an A/B+ to get into med school. Organic was just brute memorization and really not THAT hard, Physical Chemistry was waaaay more difficult.
You still need bio chem to get into any decent med school and orgo is "easy" compared to bio chem. Not taken Physical Chem, but the required chems for med school and one extra, which was mostly focused on enzymes; under the hood, nothing happens in a biological system without and few understand how they actually function. It was both fascinating and damn hard, but the proff was world renound and wrote the text books used on the topic.
titsonritz
10-07-22, 00:39
A real school ought to recruit the ol' boy.
Agree with Will on the intro/orgo difference in mental ability. Bio-chem, which I took for fun my senior year 2nd semester, I didn’t as a chem major- but that is like building on orgo- and nut just remembering the reactions, but like you said, the cycle of them. I (don’t) remember the Kreb’s cycle…. I vaguely remember being give 50 amino-acids/proteins and having to figure out the charge on them at different pHs. I knew I was in a buzz-saw when the proff said that the Bio-chem class was lifted straight from the med-school, and he brought in another proff to teach part of it because they knew it better…. I did like the class because it is as close as I got to understanding (or having the tools to) understand cellular biology at its most basic.
On the ‘building’ of one class on another, from what I understand once you get into med school, the head-scratcher there is the kidneys and all those reactions and membranes.
Ah, “The Science”. “Believe the Science”. I’ve spent enough time interacting with politicians and National Labs on simple things to just shake my head everytime I hear those phrases.
The med guys in the Joint Special Operations Training Group at Bragg have to write a paper and test out on Kreb's cycle. They get college A&P, the full course, in three weeks, with a firehose. It took me a semester to master the Kreb's cycle, and I still quiz nurses and RTs on it.
Organic chem is usually a weeder course since 90% of the people who take it plan on med school or grad school of some level. I did OK, but kicked my ass.
Guess college has changed. My P-Chem professor wrote "Flunk now and avoid the rush" on the board the first week of class. And he was the nicest P-Chem professor at a school where everyone had to take P-Chem.
The Math prof I had for Vectors and Tensors used to staple truck driving school applications to failing tests before he handed them back. It was hilarious, but we weren't Gen-Z crybabies.
kaiservontexas
10-07-22, 19:09
I have always had mad respect for all of you math and chemistry majors. I went the law track, but math is a weakness for me. One my friend keeps pointing out is nonsense since he is always drawing molecular chains and discussing math with me. He was a animal science major; so, he went through many math and chemistry courses. Still mad respect from me. I remember the premed folks. Such choices are not the easiest path, you know like feminist basket weaving 101.
[QUOTE=WillBrink;3065315]You still need bio chem to get into any decent med school and orgo is "easy" compared to bio chem. Not taken Physical Chem, but the required chems for med school and one extra,QUOTE
Actually, no. The premed requirements were 1 yr gen chem, 1 yr org chem, 1 yr gen physics 1 yr gen bio. I took additional courses but that was in my senior after I had been accepted. Columbia P&S, didn't mind that I didn't take biochem as an undergrad.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-07-22, 22:48
[QUOTE=WillBrink;3065315]You still need bio chem to get into any decent med school and orgo is "easy" compared to bio chem. Not taken Physical Chem, but the required chems for med school and one extra,QUOTE
Actually, no. The premed requirements were 1 yr gen chem, 1 yr org chem, 1 yr gen physics 1 yr gen bio. I took additional courses but that was in my senior after I had been accepted. Columbia P&S, didn't mind that I didn't take biochem as an undergrad.
That’s the funny thing about med school is that it seems lately that a science degree isn’t the best path, they are looking for people with different back grounds too- but you had better nail those pre-reqs. The other thing is how infrequently people fail out of med school. THey literally dragged one kid in my wife’s class through med school, he was just not getting it and was kind of a jackass about. Took an extra year or two, but they graduated him. He was a ‘unicorn’ when there weren’t many. People failing out I guess is a real black mark for programs. People quit, but don’t ‘fail’ very often. Unfortunately that carries over to when they get into practice.
[QUOTE=WillBrink;3065315]You still need bio chem to get into any decent med school and orgo is "easy" compared to bio chem. Not taken Physical Chem, but the required chems for med school and one extra,QUOTE
Actually, no. The premed requirements were 1 yr gen chem, 1 yr org chem, 1 yr gen physics 1 yr gen bio. I took additional courses but that was in my senior after I had been accepted. Columbia P&S, didn't mind that I didn't take biochem as an undergrad.
I was a philosophy major, took the basic prerequsites as noted above, three funky courses like biophysics, cytogenetics, and immunology, but that was all. NYU med thought it was fine and took me in :-)
My first degree was Poli sci with zero science. We'll, not zero, but astronomy for dummies and ecology. It wasn't until after I was a paramedic that I thought about med school and took the prerequisites and MCAT. I got into UNC, but at that age decided I didn't want the lifestyle/schedule to dominate my 30s. So I went to nursing school instead. Funny thing, none of the sciences except bio counted, and I still had to take other science prerequisites.
I've worked at a top-10 hospital at a top-10 university for almost 17 years, and do some teaching with the school of med (and pa school and nursing school). I am amazed at some of the people who slip in who have no business being doctors. But they don't fail them.
[QUOTE=WillBrink;3065315]
Actually, no. The premed requirements were 1 yr gen chem, 1 yr org chem, 1 yr gen physics 1 yr gen bio. I took additional courses but that was in my senior after I had been accepted. Columbia P&S, didn't mind that I didn't take biochem as an undergrad.
All the med schools I looked at mid 90s, required bio chem. If they dropped that rec since, that's a shame. It's bio chem where everything you learned before gets applied to a biological system (hence the name) and is immensely helpful to understanding human phys. Nothing has been of greater value to my overall understanding of human phys then bio chem. I did a quick search and on a med school prep site found:
"Biochemistry (one semester). About 60 medical schools require biochemistry." That's approx under 50% if the same number of med schools still exist since the last time I looked.
My first degree was Poli sci with zero science. We'll, not zero, but astronomy for dummies and ecology. It wasn't until after I was a paramedic that I thought about med school and took the prerequisites and MCAT. I got into UNC, but at that age decided I didn't want the lifestyle/schedule to dominate my 30s. So I went to nursing school instead. Funny thing, none of the sciences except bio counted, and I still had to take other science prerequisites.
I've worked at a top-10 hospital at a top-10 university for almost 17 years, and do some teaching with the school of med (and pa school and nursing school). I am amazed at some of the people who slip in who have no business being doctors. But they don't fail them.
I'm often stunned by how bad some MDs are at even basic science. MDs are not scientists, but there are of course some very smart MDs who do science and research. But, in my many and lengthy incursions within the med community in 3+ decades, I'm often reminded they are not scientists nor even adequate at basic science and the application there of. I got stories, as no doubt you do to.
I had a go around with a cardiologist just the other day. I could not believe the man had graduated from Harvard med school. But, my own cardiologist is a sharp guy, I trust him, and more importantly, he's able to to admit when he does not know something...
All the med schools I looked at mid 90s, required bio chem. If they dropped that rec since, that's a shame. It's bio chem where everything you learned before gets applied to a biological system (hence the name) and is immensely helpful to understanding human phys. Nothing has been of greater value to my overall understanding of human phys then bio chem. I did a quick search and on a med school prep site found:
"Biochemistry (one semester). About 60 medical schools require biochemistry." That's approx under 50% if the same number of med schools still exist since the last time I looked.
For what it's worth, Biochem is a significant portion of the current MCAT (25% of the Biology/Biochem).
Whether or not you need it for a specific school is pretty much moot...you will certainly score below the national average if you don't know biochem before the MCAT. The institution I teach at won't touch your application with an MCAT < 512.
For what it's worth, Biochem is a significant portion of the current MCAT (25% of the Biology/Biochem).
Whether or not you need it for a specific school is pretty much moot...you will certainly score below the national average if you don't know biochem before the MCAT. The institution I teach at won't touch your application with an MCAT < 512.
So perhaps self correcting for those who didn't take bio chem. Good intel.
[QUOTE=henri;3065522]
All the med schools I looked at mid 90s, required bio chem. If they dropped that rec since, that's a shame. It's bio chem where everything you learned before gets applied to a biological system (hence the name) and is immensely helpful to understanding human phys. Nothing has been of greater value to my overall understanding of human phys then bio chem. I did a quick search and on a med school prep site found:
"Biochemistry (one semester). About 60 medical schools require biochemistry." That's approx under 50% if the same number of med schools still exist since the last time I looked.
I graduated in 1982, the requirements in' 78 when I applied were as noted in my original post. I applied to all 5 schools in NYC, only the basic pre-reqs were required.
[QUOTE=WillBrink;3065586]
I graduated in 1982, the requirements in' 78 when I applied were as noted in my original post. I applied to all 5 schools in NYC, only the basic pre-reqs were required.
Per above, under 50% require bio chem currently. I don't know what the % was when you applied vs when I was looking, vs today. GTF425 comment would also suggest it would be very difficult to get a good score on the MCAT without bio chem, so perhaps it's self correcting/self selecting to higher score on the test. I don't know how much weight the test scores are for med schools today vs GPA, interviews, etc. As someone who has always sucked at standardized testing, I favor less dependence on such scores and more balance approach to candidates into programs. Never took the MCAT, also know I'd likely not scored high on it, yet often have a better handle on a topic than most.
Averageman
10-08-22, 10:50
My Son Majored in Accounting. He had to take trigonometry his first Semester and there was really no necessity for an Accountant to know trigonometry, at least neither of us could understand it.
Sometimes I think they slip some classes in to weed out the weak.
BTW he's a semester from his MBA now.
My Son Majored in Accounting. He had to take trigonometry his first Semester and there was really no necessity for an Accountant to know trigonometry, at least neither of us could understand it.
Sometimes I think they slip some classes in to weed out the weak.
BTW he's a semester from his MBA now.
Bio chem was viewed as that course. First day of class, the proff stated that clearly the class: the intent of the course is to weed out those planning to go to med school, which was most in the huge lecture class. However, it is very applicable to understanding human phys/bio and invaluable if you survive it. Now it seems some saying Orgo is that class, which surprised and confuses me some. I will tell you this: you'd kill for that orgo test you thought was so hard when you're in bio-chem.
Here's how it goes: Gen chem and orgo, you are working hard with that "why am I doing this as I don't see how it will ever apply to the real world." Once in bio chem, it's harder than the prior chems, but you're all "That's why they made me learn all that seemingly unrelated horrible chit! This applies to the real world!" when in bio chem. Those who didn't get to bio chem don't get to have that experience. I think that's a terrible waste.
The courses I could not figure out why they were required for med school was the physics recs. I think there's a lot of other courses people could take to better prepare them has health/med pros then physics courses, such as genetics, nutri, more chem, etc.
But, I am not an MD and can't comment as to claim working docs agree those were of little value to their work.
No doubt in some specialties, like radio oncologist, the physics background is of value. For most others? Have to ask docs here I guess.
Bio chem was viewed as that course. First day of class, the proff stated that clearly the class: the intent of the course is to weed out those planning to go to med school, which was most in the huge lecture class. However, it is very applicable to understanding human phys/bio and invaluable if you survive it. Now it seems some saying Orgo is that class, which surprised and confuses me some. I will tell you this: you'd kill for that orgo test you thought was so hard when you're in bio-chem.
Here's how it goes: Gen chem and orgo, you are working hard with that "why am I doing this as I don't see how it will ever apply to the real world." Once in bio chem, it's harder than the prior chems, but you're all "That's why they made me learn all that seemingly unrelated horrible chit! This applies to the real world!" when in bio chem. Those who didn't get to bio chem don't get to have that experience. I think that's a terrible waste.
The courses I could not figure out why they were required for med school was the physics recs. I think there's a lot of other courses people could take to better prepare them has health/med pros then physics courses, such as genetics, nutri, more chem, etc.
But, I am not an MD and can't comment as to claim working docs agree those were of little value to their work.
No doubt in some specialties, like radio oncologist, the physics background is of value. For most others? Have to ask docs here I guess.
A lot of docs say they learned most of what they needed to in residency, not med school.
I asked a long-time EM doc once a question about biochem in a particular disease process, she said "why should I know, I am an emergency medicine doctor."
Per above, under 50% require bio chem currently. I don't know what the % was when you applied vs when I was looking, vs today. GTF425 comment would also suggest it would be very difficult to get a good score on the MCAT without bio chem, so perhaps it's self correcting/self selecting to higher score on the test. I don't know how much weight the test scores are for med schools today vs GPA, interviews, etc. As someone who has always sucked at standardized testing, I favor less dependence on such scores and more balance approach to candidates into programs. Never took the MCAT, also know I'd likely not scored high on it, yet often have a better handle on a topic than most.
I know the process internally at our institution (public health University).
GPA and MCAT get you the secondary application. No human being assesses grades from individual classes...there's a minimum cutoff science GPA and a minimum MCAT score. MCAT > GPA for this institution, however, the mean GPA is 3.72 for the new MS1s and the minimum MCAT is allegedly the national average. Competitive applicants from the recent cycle had an MCAT > 515. I know a handful of students who were below the average, but had extensive medical experience as Paramedics/etc.
The interview is the make or break. They do a "speed dating" type of interview versus a traditional panel. After the interview, an admissions committee will comb through letters of rec, your personal statement, CV, and interview notes to determine who is accepted. Priority is placed on the holistic individual, not on individual paper qualifications (so for some pre-med who happens to read this- don't jazzercise your CV with BS...you're better off gaining meaningful experiences through shadowing or volunteering in a clinical environment that interests you than arbitrary participation to fluff your CV).
I've heard of students with 4.0s being rejected because they can't make eye contact or hold a conversation during the interview.
But this is one institution in one state. When my wife interviewed at one of the Med Schools she applied to, they placed a strong emphasis on research and were very cut throat academically. She went elsewhere and found the program that was right for her, which I think is just as important as anything else in the matriculation process.
Anyone going down that journey has my deepest respect. It's a long road and isn't for everyone. I remember her late, LATE nights studying in school and the 80+ hour work weeks through Residency. If there's any pre meds on here, I sincerely wish you the best of luck.
A lot of docs say they learned most of what they needed to in residency, not med school.
Of course. You're not even close to being ready to be a SEAL once done with BUDs, etc, etc. School is one thing, real world is another totally. Hence why so many people who never leave their office to experience the real world, are so f-ing useless.
I asked a long-time EM doc once a question about biochem in a particular disease process, she said "why should I know, I am an emergency medicine doctor."
That does not fill me with confidence honestly. Did they take bio chem? I can't imagine honestly how one would go through med school without it. Bio chem where you learn about things used as a doc all the time, such as essential concepts of pharmacokinetics and others which are real world applicable concepts used. For those learning about concepts like pharmacokinetics, Michaelis-Menten kinetics, etc in med school, I will say having taken bio chem would put them well ahead of the curve there.
I know the process internally at our institution (public health University).
GPA and MCAT get you the secondary application. No human being assesses grades from individual classes...there's a minimum cutoff science GPA and a minimum MCAT score. MCAT > GPA for this institution, however, the mean GPA is 3.72 for the new MS1s and the minimum MCAT is allegedly the national average. Competitive applicants from the recent cycle had an MCAT > 515. I know a handful of students who were below the average, but had extensive medical experience as Paramedics/etc.
The interview is the make or break. They do a "speed dating" type of interview versus a traditional panel. After the interview, an admissions committee will comb through letters of rec, your personal statement, CV, and interview notes to determine who is accepted. Priority is placed on the holistic individual, not on individual paper qualifications (so for some pre-med who happens to read this- don't jazzercise your CV with BS...you're better off gaining meaningful experiences through shadowing or volunteering in a clinical environment that interests you than arbitrary participation to fluff your CV).
I've heard of students with 4.0s being rejected because they can't make eye contact or hold a conversation during the interview.
But this is one institution in one state. When my wife interviewed at one of the Med Schools she applied to, they placed a strong emphasis on research and were very cut throat academically. She went elsewhere and found the program that was right for her, which I think is just as important as anything else in the matriculation process.
Anyone going down that journey has my deepest respect. It's a long road and isn't for everyone. I remember her late, LATE nights studying in school and the 80+ hour work weeks through Residency. If there's any pre meds on here, I sincerely wish you the best of luck.
You mean like so many medical doctors? I kid! Sorta... Harvard Med realizing that so many docs had become so bad at that, they instituted an entire focus on improving bed side manner of the docs they produced some time ago.
I don't know if others did/do same, but a good idea. Sounds like your place takes a pretty balanced approach to their candidates for entry.
Of course. You're not even close to being ready to be a SEAL once done with BUDs, etc, etc. School is one thing, real world is another totally. Hence why so many people who never leave their office to experience the real world, are so f-ing useless.
That does not fill me with confidence honestly. Did they take bio chem? I can't imagine honestly how one would go through med school without it. Bio chem where you learn about things used as a doc all the time, such as essential concepts of pharmacokinetics and others which are real world applicable concepts used. For those learning about concepts like pharmacokinetics, Michaelis-Menten kinetics, etc in med school, I will say having taken bio chem would put them well ahead of the curve there.
I think in one's particular specialty you learn the things you need to learn in order to be successful in that particular specialty. I imagine that a dermatologist would not remember much of what they learned in med school, much less a lot of pathophysiology. You would tend to remember the subjects that pertain to your particular job.
The EM doc about who am I spoke went to the number one emergency medicine residency in the country, and is a heavy hitter in that discipline.
Averageman
10-08-22, 12:27
I've heard of students with 4.0s being rejected because they can't make eye contact or hold a conversation during the interview.
I have a close friend who was from rural Tennesee literally raised himself up by his own bootstraps, fail the interview because of his southern accent and use of colloquialisms.
I have a close friend who was from rural Tennesee literally raised himself up by his own bootstraps, fail the interview because of his southern accent and use of colloquialisms.
Tripp Winslow is an EM doc at Bowman Gray, The hospital attached to Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. He is also state medical director for EMS. His southern accent is so thick sometimes you have to ask him to repeat himself. But he knows how to interview. And that is key. You have to dress the part and be articulate.
It is true and very unfortunate that a lot of admission committees are biased with things like accent, etc.
I applied to one school, UNC Chapel Hill, and I got in. One of the reasons they told me I got in was because I was comfortable in the interview and not nervous. I was also much older than my peers.
I have a close friend who was from rural Tennesee literally raised himself up by his own bootstraps, fail the interview because of his southern accent and use of colloquialisms.
Hopefully a school with some sense picked him up.
Averageman
10-08-22, 14:33
Hopefully a school with some sense picked him up.
No, he went to school via the National Guard.
Looking at his options and debt, a debt the Regular Army was willing to pay off, he went RA.
He came to my unit and became my Gunner and my right hand Man. When his time was up he left Tanks and went to be a medic in the 82nd, then SF Medical. He had like a 24 year career.
We've kind of lost touch, but he was truely one of the finest Soldiers who never spit shined a boot. I mean that in the best of ways.
Most/ALL of the practical therapeutics, procedures, and treatment methods are acquired in residency. During the first two years of basic science, 1 yr of biochem was required, but I don't recall much if any of it. Physiology, pharmacology, anatomy of course. Medical school was fun, for me an MD after 4 yrs with a guaranteed specialty and income was a better option than a PhD in Immunology or pharmacology, the other options I was contemplating or working at some mundane job. Residency was a great learning experience despite the 70-80 hour work weeks, this was before the infamous Libby Zion case at my training institution. In the daily practice of medicine, be it surgery, ob gyn, cardiology, GI, etc, biochemistry is not really a consideration.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-09-22, 12:53
I was dating my wife while she was in med-school and when we’d be at parties, I’d look around and tell her, “I find it hard to believe that I’m dumbest person here.” And she would say “You’re not…”. Of course, everyone is dumb compared to my wife, I tell her that she’s an intellectual gangster. After med school tests, when everyone was at the bar discussing the test, I could tell how badly her friends did by how quiet she was when they were going over answers. She was top five in her med class, got all kinds of awards in residency and fellowship, and nails all her boards.
My Son Majored in Accounting. He had to take trigonometry his first Semester and there was really no necessity for an Accountant to know trigonometry, at least neither of us could understand it.
Sometimes I think they slip some classes in to weed out the weak.
BTW he's a semester from his MBA now.
I went for my MBA after chemistry and amazed at the business majors that struggled in the economics courses. I’d look at them and say that this is just an applied algebra class- and that’s what scared them…
I have a close friend who was from rural Tennesee literally raised himself up by his own bootstraps, fail the interview because of his southern accent and use of colloquialisms.
My wife swears that she got into one med school because the interviewing doc had rowed crew in college, just like my wife….
My wife and I don’t remember our MCAT scores…
I think the real ‘test’ that BioChem show is if you can retain knowledge from 2-3 years ago. Did you learn for the test or did you internalize it and be able to apply it to a new set of problems. And that is all that the pre-reps for med school are. THe subject matter is relevant, but in reality, it is so basic that they are going to cram it all in your head, and then a dozen layers more.
Frankly, as to Will comments about physics, I think the class is somewhat applicable- but what we really need is better stats training. Statistics aren’t understood by 105% of people. And it is becoming more and more important.
For me going the ME route, Calc 2 and applied differentials were the two classes that almost ruined me. Not surprisingly, in talking with my boss about it, he said he was kicked out of college before getting an associates degree and has not once ever had to use any calculus. So far I have yet to need it either, and unless I were to write a program for some simulation or something, I don’t see where I’ll ever need it.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-11-22, 01:31
For me going the ME route, Calc 2 and applied differentials were the two classes that almost ruined me. Not surprisingly, in talking with my boss about it, he said he was kicked out of college before getting an associates degree and has not once ever had to use any calculus. So far I have yet to need it either, and unless I were to write a program for some simulation or something, I don’t see where I’ll ever need it.
I started Calc 2 in a deep hole, but worked at it and steadily rose my grade in test after test, and the proff had a system where if you did well on the final, it counted more- kind of a second bite at the apple. I actually wrote my proff a note saying that if he passed me, I'd never take a math class again. Calc2, like physics, came to me when I could 'see' it. Integrating functions that I could 'see' in my head as a double check- but straight manipulating some function, never mind. I am a total visual thinker. Had some consultant or some trainer say that kind of distinction is BS. I told him that if he tells me directions with more than three turns, I'll never get there. Show me a map for 10 seconds with where I am and where I need to go- Not a problem. I have to draw a map as people talk instead of writing what they said.
And a big consideration in how 'smart' you are is how amenable you are to spending time and learning it. So many people just throw up their hands way too fast and say that they can't understand something and give up. Granted, we all have a level of intelligence and capability to learn, but the practice of being able to believe that you'll learn something I think is key. The problem is that often experts want you to think that things are too hard for all but the experts to learn. Had a PhD chemist at work that loved to 'hold court' and dwell on minutia. He as in one of his soliloquies towards an end and I just short circuited him by jumping to the end result a few steps early. He looked at me like "Oh my, the monkey does understand..". We are all monkeys and sometime all it takes for someone junior to us is some encouragement that they'll get there too.
P-chem and DiffEQ were my issues. Almost failed out due to diff. Trying to work 30+hr a week and go full time didnt work out.
Had to get approval from the dean for 1 last attempt and got an A after dropping work hours. Haha.
O-chem was not that bad.
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