View Full Version : Who downloads their handgun mags when leaving the range?
This subject has been whipped pretty good regarding AR15 mags. Most of my shooting friends download their mags after a match. I leave whatever mags have rounds in them and dont want to double my work, being a lazy ass.
Years ago, someone suggested that springs get wore out from being used, full to empty full to empty.....not from being loaded and left alone?
Is there a consensus on what is best or does it matter, I have to think I am wrong since everyone I see downloads their handgun mags?
What say you ????
PB
From a nine page discussion just last year.
Actually, magazine spring life is not as simple as "load and leave - they will last forever", or "cycling is the only thing that wears out magazine springs".
In 1966 the Army did a five year study on this very subject. A report entitled "Evaluation of Pretreatment Process and Long Term Storage on Magazine Springs" was published with the results of this test.
There were two objectives, 1) determine the effect of various pretreatments on spring life and 2) determine the effects of long term storage of magazines stored at normal, hot, and cold temperatures. The parts we are concerned with are the life of a "normal" spring, as none of the pretreatments yielded cost effective improvements, if any improvement was seen at all, and the results of extended storage of fully loaded magazines versus unloaded magazines over 5 years of storage.
(Data from "Evaluation of Pretreatment Processes and Long Term Storage on Magazine Springs".)
LONG TERM STORAGE:
In order for the "spring to not take a permanent set in service" the spring must never be loaded beyond specifications, which is generally not more than 50% of the free length. Most magazine designs have the springs over-compressed when loaded to maximum capacity. M16 magazines are such springs, when fully loaded, they are compressed to 14% of their free length (18% if you only go to 28 rounds).
The magazines, some loaded and some unloaded, were stored for 5 years, at set intervals a portion of the springs were removed from storage and had the free length and load-at-length measured, the ones removed from storage did not return to storage after testing. After approximately, 12 weeks the loaded springs had free lengths reduced below the original value, and lost strength, around 84% specification value. After 24 weeks, the load-at-length values were 76% there original value.
From 24 week the loaded springs showed a very slight decrease in both length and strength, dropping to about 72% after 2 years and stabilizing at that value after that. After 1-1/2 years, in the loaded condition, spring exhibited an average set of 11% below the initial free length. This stabilized for the rest of the test period.
This indicates that the strain on the spring has an effect on the loss of strength and length, but if the strain is constant the reduction reaches a stabilization point, and how low that point is depend on the initial strain. Unloaded magazines also showed a decrease in free length and load-at-length values, but stabilized in 24 weeks just inside the acceptable drawing limits.
The functional testing of the magazine after storage was to fire all of the loaded rounds in them and see if there were any magazine attributable malfunctions, there were none.
So, you do loose a measurable portion of your spring strength after long term storage, but it will stabilize after approximately 2 years. A spring with a strength of 72% of its new specification strength does not adversely effect function, but it has some impact on total life, as we know cycling of the spring will also lead to loss of free length and strength.
SPRING LIFE:
Spring were gymnasticated at a rate of 116 strokes per minute between the assembled height (unloaded length) and the maximum design compression (fully loaded length), with the free length and load-at-length checked a set intervals. This cycle rate was considered a bit excessive, but as the in service cycle rates would be slower this was the "worse-case". By 1655 cycles, about 1/3 of the springs' load-at-length value had dropped below the new spring limit, and by 12,000 cycles, all of the springs had dropped below 50% load-at-length (which is probably insufficient for proper function), or had become so distorted cycling was impossible.
DISCUSSION:
The service limit is not necessarily the same as the production limit, and according to this study, a spring with 72% of the production limit is capable of providing adequate performance. However, it would be incorrect to say that long term storage of fully loaded magazines "has no effect on the spring". On average it took about 700 to 1000 cycles to reduce the spring strength values from "new" to 72%, so that much spring life has been lost. So, it depends on how often you load and unload your magazine, as to which is better for the life of the spring, storing loaded, or loading and unloading.
The up-shot is: It doesn't make any noticeable difference as to the question of "Which is better for a spring, loaded or unloaded?"
EDIT: If you want to know when your spring is near the end of its life, when unloaded, the force need to depress the second round in the magazine should not be less than 2.5 pounds, preferably closer to 3 pounds.
El Vaquero
10-16-22, 18:05
As much of a concern as the springs is the magazine itself. With polymer magazines, when kept fully loaded they can begin to bow out at the sides permanently. Then they won’t properly eject and must be replaced. Obviously not an issue with metal mags.
Same as you PB; loaded, unused mags stay loaded after range time. I do not download pistol mags, they’re loaded to capacity, unlike AR mags.
This has been my practice for decades with no issues.
Springs and followers are replaced on “as needed” basis.
I have not experienced any problems but I actively use my mags by emptying and reloading. I guess I will continue my practice of leaving as is when the match is over.
Good feedback guys.
PB
With polymer magazines, when kept fully loaded they can begin to bow out at the sides permanently. Then they won’t properly eject and must be replaced. Obviously not an issue with metal mags.
Did not happen with first generation PMAGs I kept loaded from 2009 to 2020.
El Vaquero
10-17-22, 07:04
Did not happen with first generation PMAGs I kept loaded from 2009 to 2020.
We talking pistol or rifle polymer mags? I believe we were talking about pistol mags?
HK polymer pistol mags are known to bow from storage when fully loaded. Glock pistol mags not so much because they have metal lining inside.
For me, with pistol polymer mags I view them as expendable and after about 5 years I make them range use mags and replace the duty ones with new ones.
Mag swell can be a thing, depends. Spring fatigue from loading and unloading isn't. I don't download a range mag for either consideration. I download if I need to give ammo back, won't use that load again soon, or need to do something with the mags.
I don't download handgun magazines, but I don't top them off either. If a magazine holds 15 rounds and 1 round gets stripped off when I make the handgun ready for use, I carry the sidearm with 14 rounds left in the magazine. I also unload, then reload the magazines once a month.
Some local LEO I know carried their Glock 22 magazines fully loaded and argued that the springs would never weaken. After about 6 years had passed, the same group of LEO asked if I wanted to get in on a group buy to purchase new Glock 22 magazines. The slides on their service pistols would not lock open after the last shot in the magazine was fired.
Loaded / HD / Duty magazines remain loaded throughout their life and are only unloaded by shooting when shot for practice (typically shoot the loaded pistol magazine or the reload, every 6-12 months; AR mags are left loaded and the only time a round is removed is after chambering / unchambering it - mags themselves stay loaded).
Training mags get loaded / shot / loaded as needed. I often load in advance of going to the range (several days / weeks) and if I magazine isn't emptied, it's rare that I would unload it - typically only if I wanted to consolidate mixed number of rounds from several magazines - but if I had issues with a particular round, I've unloaded those as well. But otherwise they are in the loaded training box for next time.
Good to know fellas I will stay my current path.
Someone said polymer HK Pistol mags. All my HK mags are metal for my P30’s, VP9’s and HK45. I have seen those translucent HK MAGS for some of their fancy HK’s, I think ?
We talking pistol or rifle polymer mags? I believe we were talking about pistol mags?
HK polymer pistol mags are known to bow from storage when fully loaded. Glock pistol mags not so much because they have metal lining inside.
I was referring to the rifle mags. My unstated point was that even as far back as 2008 there were polymer choices to avoid this, at least at room temperature. Shame on companies if this is still a problem in 2022.
I was referring to the rifle mags. My unstated point was that even as far back as 2008 there were polymer choices to avoid this, at least at room temperature. Shame on companies if this is still a problem in 2022.
yea that should not be a thing, agreed.
PB
Same as you PB; loaded, unused mags stay loaded after range time. I do not download pistol mags, they’re loaded to capacity, unlike AR mags.
This has been my practice for decades with no issues.
Springs and followers are replaced on “as needed” basis.
This.
I have crap tons of replacement springs for every single firearm related thing I have that requires some sort of spring to function properly (including magazines).
Adrenaline_6
10-19-22, 07:40
Good to know fellas I will stay my current path.
Someone said polymer HK Pistol mags. All my HK mags are metal for my P30’s, VP9’s and HK45. I have seen those translucent HK MAGS for some of their fancy HK’s, I think ?
I have a few of those HK translucent AR mags. They have stayed loaded for years. They still work fine too. Yea...never owned an HK pistol polymer mag either...all metal. I bought the HK 17 round conversion kits for my 15 round P30/VP9 mags. Have to put those through the ringer to make sure it's all good.
I have a few of those HK translucent AR mags. They have stayed loaded for years. They still work fine too. Yea...never owned an HK pistol polymer mag either...all metal. I bought the HK 17 round conversion kits for my 15 round P30/VP9 mags. Have to put those through the ringer to make sure it's all good.
I did the 20 round conversions and they worked great. I have an ass ton of 15’s, who makes the 17 conversion kits?
PB
I do not download mags on carry guns, only on some metal AR mags not on polymer AR mags used for HD/SD. All other of my "fun" guns (AKs, FALs etc) I kinda do when I remember to. Range toys that are collectable and or rare are in different category IMHO and anything one needs to do to preserve the longevity of rare mags to keep the gun running should be done. My uncle had a an original Dornhous(?) Bren 10 pistol that sat unused for the need of a working mag!! Regardless, all mags should be considered somewhat disposable. Everything has a service life. If a mag is diagnosed as to causing ANY type of functioning problems on CCW/HD/SD firearm it gets shitcanned and replaced ASAP.
Adrenaline_6
10-19-22, 20:37
I did the 20 round conversions and they worked great. I have an ass ton of 15’s, who makes the 17 conversion kits?
PB
HK does.The 15's followers were way over built. The newer HK 17 capacity mags are the same body as the older 15's, they just have smaller followers, different springs and baseplates. Primary Arms had a clearance on them about a month ago. They are probably great since they are HK stuff and lots of guys have tried them on the HK forum.
https://lockedloaded.com/product/vp9p30-mag-conversion-kit
or
https://dackoutdoors.com/product/hk-vp9p30-15rd-to-17rd-conv-kit
or at HK parts.net
https://hkparts.net/product/magazine-conversion-kit-hk-vp9-p30.htm/
I top off my and partially loaded mags so I've got less work to do next time. I leave unloaded mags unloaded unless I need them to be loaded for some reason.
I top off my and partially loaded mags so I've got less work to do next time. I leave unloaded mags unloaded unless I need them to be loaded for some reason.
It’s kind of a bad feeling to have a gun in your bag with no loaded mags, even if your carry gun is in the car. No reason just does not seem right to me.
PB
The_War_Wagon
10-20-22, 20:13
Range mags, yes.
It’s kind of a bad feeling to have a gun in your bag with no loaded mags, even if your carry gun is in the car. No reason just does not seem right to me.
PB
Same here, even if its a 22 pistol I normally load or reserve one mag.
Andy
Same here, even if its a 22 pistol I normally load or reserve one mag.
Andy
Yes. Having a "Plan B, C, or D" is comforting.
Agreed with the above. Nice to have at least a mag or two loaded for the ride home, besides my edc.
voiceofreason
10-31-22, 21:04
I load all mags before and after comps/classes/events. Mags are not useful unless they're loaded. If I need to grab a mag, I want it loaded.
Only exceptions might be 2 empty mags for classes. Some drills require very few rounds.
As much of a concern as the springs is the magazine itself. With polymer magazines, when kept fully loaded they can begin to bow out at the sides permanently. Then they won’t properly eject and must be replaced. Obviously not an issue with metal mags.
Probably why Glock mags are metal lined. No issues there.
fedupflyer
11-17-22, 16:14
Only reason I unload mag(s) after a competition/class/practice is to see how much I have left and need to plus up for the next event.
Even at that it usually one or two partially used mags.
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