View Full Version : Hackathorn on Red Dot's and Handguns
The expected geezer perspective, yet some valid points.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjlL0hYgdag
I posted that in the on going red dot thread. As I said in that thread, not sold on red dots personally for some of the reasons he outlines, but no doubt they offer some advantages.
I posted that in the on going red dot thread. As I said in that thread, not sold on red dots personally for some of the reasons he outlines, but no doubt they offer some advantages.
I've mentioned this to you before, Will, but you will not be sold on them until you take the plunge and actually get one. With the determination to make it work. Once you do that, the advantages will become very real to you, especially as you watch your groups shrink, as well as increase your ability to make first round hits at 50 yards or more. You'll also see how much they improve your dry firing due to the instant feedback when you're less than smooth.
Precision and ability to hit (accurately) at distance are their strong suits for me.
Here is the problem I see. If you end up 'needing them', and you already own 'too many' guns it can get super expensive...
Here is the problem I see. If you end up 'needing them', and you already own 'too many' guns it can get super expensive...
On the bright side; it's hella cheaper than mistresses' and Sports Cars.
Here is the problem I see. If you end up 'needing them', and you already own 'too many' guns it can get super expensive...
Well... I "need" them... Which is really the main reason I bought my first one in the first place. Once I had one though, I realized what a benefit they are to me, and now won't buy a pistol that doesn't either have an optics cut or is readily able to take one. Eyes getting weaker sucks, but I now wish I'd switched to red dots a lot sooner due to the other benefits.
Great video, thank you for sharing. I was expecting it to be a total geezer perspective. I agree with about 90% of what he is saying. From my experience having red dot pistols (my first ATEi was in 2012) his numbers are spot on. You will need about 1k to draw to the dot along with recoil and 5k to be totally proficient and get your brain to focus on the target.
New shooters that shoot and want to learn with proper fundamentals will see a very quick learning curve with a dot. New shooters that are not going to put the work in with stance, grip, ect, a dot can be a nightmare as they spend so much time hunting for a dot.
I disagree with him on his distances, in that with a dot I can get precision hits from 7 to 25 yards and beyond with a dot, but my eyes suck. I am shooting broad side of a barn past 15y with irons.
I also disagree with him in that they won't last. I think for cops it is such a game changer. For people that kind of shoot (and learned to shoot with a dot) but don't really put the time in. You have the same advantage that you have on rifles that you're now focusing on the target and not the gun. But after shooting tens and tens of thousands of rounds if it was within say 7 yards, there is high probability I would just point shoot. I know, blasphemy!
I'm still lobbying Congress for universal mounting mandates that don't come loose, and double the reliability. I'm in the envious position of being able to shoot a whole mess of pistol RDS set ups without having a financial stake in the evolution.
As far as having many pistols.... I'd really only want one or two with similar grip angle. Jumping around from gun to gun is no good because the RDS requires some adjustment and practice so you're not searching for the dot for half a minute when you should be shooting.
Great video, thank you for sharing. I was expecting it to be a total geezer perspective. I agree with about 90% of what he is saying. From my experience having red dot pistols (my first ATEi was in 2012) his numbers are spot on. You will need about 1k to draw to the dot along with recoil and 5k to be totally proficient and get your brain to focus on the target.
New shooters that shoot and want to learn with proper fundamentals will see a very quick learning curve with a dot. New shooters that are not going to put the work in with stance, grip, ect, a dot can be a nightmare as they spend so much time hunting for a dot.
I disagree with him on his distances, in that with a dot I can get precision hits from 7 to 25 yards and beyond with a dot, but my eyes suck. I am shooting broad side of a barn past 15y with irons.
Note what he said was, within SD distances, there's no differences, perhaps 7 yards and in, but at distance, big improvements with the red dot. He then discusses probability of such things. You/we can debate the issue of probability.
I also disagree with him in that they won't last. I think for cops it is such a game changer. For people that kind of shoot (and learned to shoot with a dot) but don't really put the time in. You have the same advantage that you have on rifles that you're now focusing on the target and not the gun. But after shooting tens and tens of thousands of rounds if it was within say 7 yards, there is high probability I would just point shoot. I know, blasphemy!
I'm gonna play devils advocate here and say considering how bad most LEOs are with their pistol, but for a small % who train and practice on their own time and dime, a red dot is a bandaid to lack of training and practice. I'd put the $ for the red dot to ammo/training/practice time.
LE is no different then others, they like their toys, don't like to train the essentials vs get more and new toys.
Now, LEOs with better training and regular practice and red dots, likely better equipped than no red dots. The vast majority who show up to pass the (very easy) yearly qual, may hit the range 1-2 times during the year, not so much...
I'm gonna play devils advocate here and say considering how bad most LEOs are with their pistol, but for a small % who train and practice on their own time and dime, a red dot is a bandaid to lack of training and practice. I'd put the $ for the red dot to ammo/training/practice time.
LE is no different then others, they like their toys, don't like to train the essentials vs get more and new toys.
Now, LEOs with better training and regular practice and red dots, likely better equipped than no red dots. The vast majority who show up to pass the (very easy) yearly qual, may hit the range 1-2 times during the year, not so much...
Just to clarify, most people wanting to be a cop that show up at the academy dont know how to shoot. If they lean on a dot, IMO they will be better over time then if they learned on irons. There is no doubt they all need far more practice then they are getting.
I'm gonna play devils advocate here
Man... If I were carrying one of these things for duty, I'd be drawing my pistol 10 times a day to make sure the fukking thing was still working. That split second of anxiety when you can't find the dot when you're simply practicing is bad. Imagine if your life depended on this.
I'm still lobbying Congress for universal mounting mandates that don't come loose, and double the reliability. I'm in the envious position of being able to shoot a whole mess of pistol RDS set ups without having a financial stake in the evolution.
As far as having many pistols.... I'd really only want one or two with similar grip angle. Jumping around from gun to gun is no good because the RDS requires some adjustment and practice so you're not searching for the dot for half a minute when you should be shooting.
That's a very important point RDS or not, which few like to discuss. There's very few Ken H's on the planet who no doubt can shoot anything well put in his hands that he owns. The rest of us mere mortals, I think, far better off working on proficiency with one pistol platform for grip angle, POI, trigger pull, etc, and that's it.
Have a back up to your primary pistol of the same model, have a compact/sub compact of the same/similar base design which deliver similar grip angle, trigger, POI, etc for those time max concealment is needed, and done.
That's if one has the goal of best time/$ developing proficiency for SD/HD/duty vs collecting etc.
I know various guys who pick their "gun of the day" from their collection which may be DA one day, SA another, some with external safety some without, etc, and it makes me cringe.
To be able to do that, and be proficient with all of them if/when SHTF, is a full time job.
Likely an un popular and boring position, but in my travels in say gyms, diets, MA, etc, those who really focused on those "boring" basics with consistency vs jumping around, 999 out of 1000 times, get the best results.
Finally, while I am no BTDT type by any stretch, my observation of those who truly are, more often than not follow what I outline above. Some are "gun guys" which large collections, most actually own far few guns than one might expect, but work what they have to max proficiency.
Not claiming right/wrong way to do it for all, just adding what I have always felt an important often overlooked aspect of the big picture.
Just to clarify, most people wanting to be a cop that show up at the academy dont know how to shoot. If they lean on a dot, IMO they will be better over time then if they learned on irons. There is no doubt they all need far more practice then they are getting.
And that's a good point and Ken alluded to. New shooters likely adopt RDS really well, and that may apply well to new LEOs too. Of the two options however, I'd prefer someone making the choices to say "as budgets are limited, maybe we should spend that $ on more training?" I know, not realistic and real world, as you say, probably better shots starting with RDS and the minimal training and practice they receive.
Man... If I were carrying one of these things for duty, I'd be drawing my pistol 10 times a day to make sure the fukking thing was still working. That split second of anxiety when you can't find the dot when you're simply practicing is bad. Imagine if your life depended on this.
That's a big rabbit hole we could go down for sure. I wrote that article with a buddy in Police magazine (https://www.policemag.com/342553/the-patrol-athlete) in an attempt to supply real world job applicable training that could and will saves lives, reduce injuries to LE, and improve health, and crickets. I prefer to do seminars for, etc tact LE as they tend to be more motivated types who have to stay in shape, train regularly, etc for that reason.
I agree 100% with Hackathorn. With that being said, I will admit I have been shooting iron sight pistols for many years. I shot competition for 30 years. I have spent time shooting rds pistols. What I seem to find is as the range increases, the RDS has an advantage. For me, at cqb distance, the RDS doesn’t offer any advantage. To me, the disadvantage is more failure points.
Plus having carried a gun concealed for over 30 years, people don’t realize is the amount of lint, skin flakes, deodorant flakes, dirt etc collects on your carry gun. It happens quick. Add in rain etc and my choice is iron sights. Another issue is if the sun is at a strange angle, I have drawn and see multiple dots or a red streak. I have seen so many RDS in the competition world break that I have concerns.
Hence, for me, I prefer iron sights based on my experience.Than again I prefer a leather holster at 3. Perhaps I’m an old dog but when it comes to my rifles, I prefer RDS to iron. Interestingly, I had my grandsons at the range and they shot my RDS pistols much better than irons. When I asked my 12 yo why he said all his video games used similar aiming systems.
Cheers, Steve
titsonritz
10-20-22, 11:43
[QUOTE=gaijin;3068022]The expected geezer perspective <snip>
I saw it came out yesterday but didn't watch it. Figured there would be the deal.
I'm gonna play devils advocate here and say considering how bad most LEOs are with their pistol, but for a small % who train and practice on their own time and dime, a red dot is a bandaid to lack of training and practice. I'd put the $ for the red dot to ammo/training/practice time.
LE is no different then others, they like their toys, don't like to train the essentials vs get more and new toys.
Now, LEOs with better training and regular practice and red dots, likely better equipped than no red dots. The vast majority who show up to pass the (very easy) yearly qual, may hit the range 1-2 times during the year, not so much...
I'd also point out that LEOs must contend with cross examination in court, judicial notice, etc. If all the departments around you have red dots and white lights, you also need to have a red dot and a white light or the counsel for the defense will use the lack thereof to portray your department as stone age. Lots of policing is theater for the courts...
ViniVidivici
10-20-22, 12:52
Man... If I were carrying one of these things for duty, I'd be drawing my pistol 10 times a day to make sure the fukking thing was still working. That split second of anxiety when you can't find the dot when you're simply practicing is bad. Imagine if your life depended on this.
That"s nothing to worry about though when you have solid BUIS.
The very millisecond you don't see the dot, you're on irons and PRESS....not an issue.
Only thing I ever do with mine (other than dryfire/presentations) is adjust brightness for day or night.
I carry one every day now, and they truly are game-changers.
Reading through some of the comments here, I’ve noticed that many of the perceived pros and cons of using a dot on a pistol are similar to using a LPVO on a rifle.
Reading through some of the comments here, I’ve noticed that many of the perceived pros and cons of using a dot on a pistol are similar to using a LPVO on a rifle.
A much better analog is a red dot on a rifle vs irons.
A much better analog is a red dot on a rifle vs irons.
Yes, I agree, just speaking of people’s perceptions and use experiences.
I pushed my pistol red dots out a little further last weekend, starting at 40 yards, and increasing by 10 yard increments, to see how far i could accurately make first round hits on a 10" steel plate. I was able to get first round hits out to 80 yards, and hits within the first few shots out to 100 yards with the red dots. Making the same hits with irons was much harder. There is no debating the accuracy advantage that they give.
As for reliability, i like having suppressor height sights that i can see through my red dot window, in case the dot ever failed, but i've never had a dot fail yet. I do however think that dirt, lint, water, etc getting on the emitter could be problematic, so i think small enclosed emitter red dots like the Holosun EPS carry, are the future.
In terms of finding the dot, it does take practice, and I like the concept of the ACSS vulcan reticle, that puts a larger outside circle around the dot, to make it easy to find, especially in unconventional shooting positions. I run that on my Glock 19 and like it. I also like the Holosun circle reticle (not the circle with the dot inside, but just the circle), as it's easier to find quickly and still very accurate.
Personally, i feel the advantages of running a red dot on a pistol are worth the switch. I still have some guns with irons, but my carry guns all have dots now.
A much better analog is a red dot on a rifle vs irons.
I disagree. A red dot on a rifle is faster at close range than irons, and rifle irons can be accurate at distance due to the long sight radius. These do not hold for pistols.
I'm still lobbying Congress for universal mounting mandates that don't come loose, and double the reliability. I'm in the envious position of being able to shoot a whole mess of pistol RDS set ups without having a financial stake in the evolution.
As far as having many pistols.... I'd really only want one or two with similar grip angle. Jumping around from gun to gun is no good because the RDS requires some adjustment and practice so you're not searching for the dot for half a minute when you should be shooting.I'll sign that petition.
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
We are all victims of our own point of reference. I most expect a true master of iron sights who has no real competition to resist something new. The same way I expect a competition focused person is more willing to try something with less reliability to increase speed.
They are here to stay IMO; I'm a late adopter, only the last 2 years or so.
I'm sure there will be more innovation; I like the RDS & pistol mounts that are low enough to use standard height irons.
Do you need them? Like most things firearm-wise, probably not. But most here prefer to tip the scales in their favor and this is just another thing that can help if you train and shoot.
I'm new to dots on pistols.
I don't see a huge issue learning the dot. I'll shoot >1K/mo. however. But I agree with Hackathorn that there's also not any benefit up to ~15 yards. In my case, I'm still a little slower up close, nothing statistically significant, but faster at distance. I did start with the ACSS and like it for anything other than square range shooting. For me, it's very intuitive. At 25+ yards, it's easier to be precise and get your hits with a dot. My shooting is almost as good as my best ever was with irons at that distance and beyond, but I'm severely out of practice vs. my best. I can see the dryfire benefits as well.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-20-22, 20:18
I’ve been carrying an RDS pistol since 2018, been through numerous RDS user and instructor classes. Teach RDS courses to cops now. They are not the future, they are the present. If you aren’t running one, you likely have zero understanding of what you are missing. If you are against them in any capacity, you are dead wrong and I know you can’t prove otherwise. Are there a few disadvantages over irons? Maybe, but training fixes that.
I’ll throwback to the M4C of old: take an RDS class then get back to us. Kinetic Consulting RDS mechanics and Achilles Baseline Pistol helped me immensely and made RDS make sense.
BuzzinSATX
10-20-22, 20:41
I used to bring a friend out shooting once a month. He was in his late 70’s when we began shooting together. He’s shot all his life and by the time I’d met him, his eyes were pretty bad.
We used to shoot at around 12 yards and while he had a lot of handguns, he would shoot them just enough to hate the fact that he was terrible and he’d start shooting scoped rifles.
I let him try a 9MM with a red dot and he immediately started shooting half dollar groups at 12 yards. He asked me to buy and mount red dots on his pistols. Over the next 6 months, I’d put Swamp Fox red dots on 5 handguns (3 XDM’s and 2 Ruger Mk .22’s) and he fell back in love with his pistols. He still shot revolvers a bit but again, erratically due to iron sights.
He passed away this summer at 82. He was a cranky old Irishman but he had a heart of gold. I’m glad I was able to help
him enjoy a sport he’d thought he’d lost forever. Last time we’d shot was 3 months before he died. He was still shooting quarter size groups at the 12 yard range from his table rest.
I like red dots. They work for those of us who see blurry front sights.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
BuzzinSATX
10-20-22, 20:47
For me, there is really no benefit on a torso size target out to 15 yards, I’d agree. But what if you don’t get a full torso target? What if you only have a piece of a torso? What if you need to make a head shot at 10 yards?
I can make a headshot at ten yards with irons on a square range all day. But under stress, that dot gives me a much better view of the threat, a much better aiming system, and confidence over blurry iron sights.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
BuzzinSATX
10-20-22, 20:52
As far as finding the dot, I used to have an issue with that. Then I listened to Julie Golob talk about her transition to a red dot. She said something incredibly simple…line up the sights!
If you look for your front sight, you should immediately see your dot. I use that technique and it works on my Glocks, my Staccato, my XDm Elite, my P320…every gun I’ve shot with a dot.
When drawing the gun, both eyes open, present the firearm like you’re using the front sight, and the dot will be there. It’s really that simple.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I’m all about some RMR, have two identical 17s with RM06s.
I still usually carry an iron sighted 26 though. It’s probably good enough..
Five_Point_Five_Six
10-20-22, 21:59
This video would probably have been quite relevant in 2010, but let's face it, he didn't bring up a single point that hasn't been discussed ad nauseam on every forum and social media outlet for over a decade. Not only that, but a lot of his statements fall squarely into the Capt Obvious column. "If you train twice a year, a red dot won't make you shoot better". Yeah no kidding.
Pistol RDS aren't the future, they're the present and have been for some time.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-20-22, 22:35
All of Ken's concerns were valid. There is a similar video by Modern Tactical Shooting that would probably please the Red Dot folks a little more, but he still comes to a lot of the same conclusions. He loves the dots for competition but probably wouldn't carry one if he had to deploy again (and, to be fair, he is much newer to red dots than Ken).
https://youtu.be/3gO5Ekth8nA
I think Ken's analogy to the 1911 is apt. The 1911 is the easiest gun in the world to shoot...but it has some issues. I think as red dots get more and more reliable a lot of these concerns will fall away. I have basically trained myself to the point that I am almost as fast below 25 feet with the dot---although not consistently, but obviously the red dot is the LORD of walk-back drills.
During a team shoot day last week we shot those colored 6" shape targets at 7Y where you need to discern called out shapes and colors then fire the number of rounds written on the shape. The RMR made it almost simple even up close at 7Y. I could watch the number as I fired to be sure I was doing the right thing. Target/Suspect focus courtesy of the red dot!
I am a year into carrying an RMR after 26 years of irons. I practice constantly but I still wasn't sure I was close to as fast up close. This drill really pointed out the advantages even at 7Y.
On a side note a good RMR transition class should train you on all the issues with wet, blocked, dirty, etc dots. Where there is a will there is a way!
Dennis.
Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk
Note what he said was, within SD distances, there's no differences, perhaps 7 yards and in, but at distance, big improvements with the red dot. He then discusses probability of such things. You/we can debate the issue of probability.
I'm gonna play devils advocate here and say considering how bad most LEOs are with their pistol, but for a small % who train and practice on their own time and dime, a red dot is a bandaid to lack of training and practice. I'd put the $ for the red dot to ammo/training/practice time.
LE is no different then others, they like their toys, don't like to train the essentials vs get more and new toys.
Now, LEOs with better training and regular practice and red dots, likely better equipped than no red dots. The vast majority who show up to pass the (very easy) yearly qual, may hit the range 1-2 times during the year, not so much...
No.
Absolutely not.
There has been a measurable increase in qualification scores with the red dots at my department. Results down range are results down range whether you consider them a bandaid or not. Performance metric improvements are improvements.
The walk, crawl, run ethos doesn't really apply here. If a "better" punching technique were to be developed and it eclipsed the old technique in the amount of force it could generate, why learn the old method of punching?
Most top level competition shooters are not shooting to reset. Most top level competition shooters are not shooting with a front sight blade focus. Things are changing and evolving and iron sights are old technology that does NOT offer all of the advantages that a red dot does. Period.
Right now the only issues with red dots are as follows:
1. Cost of entry.
2. They can fail. So can iron sights.
3. The mounting plate solution is less than stellar across the board. Direct milling is the way.
Does everyone NEED a red dot? Absolutely not. Do red dots offer advantages that iron sights dont without ANY negatives other than those listed above? Yes, absolutely.
If I can have an advantage, whether the chance of me using said advantage is low, it matters to me not. I want that advantage. Period.
ViniVidivici
10-21-22, 02:45
I respect Hackathorn, due to his background, and his contributions to the craft over the years.
He's probably right about teaching an old dog new tricks.
But he's dead wrong about them "offering no advantage" at short SD distances, 10 yds or less. Too many of us have practical experience now that contradicts that.
The ONLY area where they have no measurable advantage are contact type distances, 0-2 yds, retention shooting, where NO sighting method is really used, and it's ALL index.
He loves the dots for competition but probably wouldn't carry one if he had to deploy again.
Dots on G19s have become a standard in some (all?) SOF units. Even for direct support dudes like medics and dogs.
And yes, they’ve been improving cop’s qual scores, even for dudes that are among the most experienced in their agencies.
I have had a red dot on m carry pistol since spring of 2001.
As everyone knows I have transitioned from RMR to Leupold Delta Micro. I took my CZ P07 with me on a trip and had not shot the RMR since I went with Delta Micro. I was very rusty with it, but 10 minutes dry fire solved the issue and I was good to go.
One of the advantages in my view of the Delta Micro is it is a red dot that has a similar presentation to irons.
Some of the trends he noted, should never have been a trend 40S&W, adjustable sights and lasers on pistols.
No.
Absolutely not.
There has been a measurable increase in qualification scores with the red dots at my department. Results down range are results down range whether you consider them a bandaid or not. Performance metric improvements are improvements.
The walk, crawl, run ethos doesn't really apply here. If a "better" punching technique were to be developed and it eclipsed the old technique in the amount of force it could generate, why learn the old method of punching?
Most top level competition shooters are not shooting to reset. Most top level competition shooters are not shooting with a front sight blade focus. Things are changing and evolving and iron sights are old technology that does NOT offer all of the advantages that a red dot does. Period.
Right now the only issues with red dots are as follows:
1. Cost of entry.
2. They can fail. So can iron sights.
3. The mounting plate solution is less than stellar across the board. Direct milling is the way.
Does everyone NEED a red dot? Absolutely not. Do red dots offer advantages that iron sights dont without ANY negatives other than list listed above? Yes, absolutely.
If I can have an advantage, whether the chance of me using said advantage is low, it matters to me not. I want that advantage. Period.
Good fact based response, thanx. I will shut up and get on the tech one of these days no doubt.
I used a 1st gen, "Tasco Pro Point" on an early (late 80's) "Open" USPSA race gun. This on a "Hi Cap" .38 Super, modified from a Para Hi-Cap .45 ACP frame- which was the only "Hi Cap" game in town at that time.
I don't recall having a major problem with adjusting to the Pistol Optic. This may have had something to do with this relic Optic being a 30mm tube format.
The combo of Hi-Cap and Optic WAS a game changer at that time. Viewed by most as an "unfair advantage", by those shooting Single Stack 1911's with Irons.
At that time there was ALWAYS a 50 yd. "Standards" stage at Major/Area Matches that everyone dreaded. It was what frequently separated the "Men from the Boys" in terms of place of finish. There was usually any number of folks capable of top level "run and gun" Stage finishes.
The Optic, more than High Capacity, was a huge advantage on the 50 yd. Standards Stage. The Optic Gun did not handicap me on the "Hoser" Stages.
All of my Carry/Range and "Class" Guns run Optics since the "Type 2 RMR" came out.
On occasion I'll run Irons Only Drills. It is much less popular, or attended, than the usual Optics Drills. The vast majority of our group have gone full on Optics.
P2Vaircrewman
10-21-22, 08:57
That"s nothing to worry about though when you have solid BUIS.
The very millisecond you don't see the dot, you're on irons and PRESS....not an issue.
Only thing I ever do with mine (other than dryfire/presentations) is adjust brightness for day or night.
I carry one every day now, and they truly are game-changers.
To make a game changer analogy, have you ever been down by 5 at 4th and goal at the one yard line and 1 second on the clock. If you haven't than saying it's a game changer is premature.
Good fact based response, thanx. I will shut up and get on the tech one of these days no doubt.
Absolutely a good post. To me the cost is only a downside when combined with 2 and 3 (Reliability and piss poor mounting options). If the RDS pistol was 99% reliable, and mounted up solid, I'd take the price bullet and "cry once".
Absolutely a good post. To me the cost is only a downside when combined with 2 and 3 (Reliability and piss poor mounting options). If the RDS pistol was 99% reliable, and mounted up solid, I'd take the price bullet and "cry once".
Reliability seems to be a non issue any more from all the feedback I have read, or at least the reality nothing is 100% reliable but we are willing to take the chances for the benefits, like having RDS on rifles etc. I don't personally have reliability concerns anymore. It does seem like direct mounting is the way to go. You either have to send your gun out to be milled and mounted, or buy a slide already done for a gun you have, which limits choices to a few brands I'd think.
I gotta look and find someone having slides done for HK Vp9. That's what I would put an RDS on. These guys appear to do a quality job of it:
https://primarymachine.com/hk-vp9-optic-milling/
Reliability seems to be a non issue any more from all the feedback I have read, or at least the reality nothing is 100% reliable but we are willing to take the chances for the benefits
I see some guns that don't have issues. But still see WAY too many "where's my dot?" hunch positions... frantically hitting the buttons. I had an instructor who left me hard core against anything you have to boot up to get going or unreliability.
So when I watch guys fiddle with the system, it makes me cringe. The dot should be on 100%, no questions just like a Comp/H-1 or whatever. Anything less doesn't belong on duty.
I watched a show on the Bugatti Chiron, and the trials they went through to make the various components and systems of that car work. So I don't buy that the current mediocrity in RDS pistol sights is the best it will be.
That"s nothing to worry about though when you have solid BUIS.
The very millisecond you don't see the dot, you're on irons and PRESS....not an issue.
Only thing I ever do with mine (other than dryfire/presentations) is adjust brightness for day or night.
I carry one every day now, and they truly are game-changers.
One of the cool things I've found with my M&P 2.0 and Leupold Micro is that if I don't immediately have the dot I can see my front sight and by the time I do that the dot suddenly appears. (Because it's on the same plane)
Mind you when that happens and my eye goes from the target, to the front sight, and back to the target that is slower than looking at the target and finding the dot already on it, of course.
I'll sign that petition.
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Yea. It could be, from my limited experience, that switching between very different pistols both with optics is harder than switching between very different pistols both irons.
This was the case with my 92X and S&W 2.0 with Leopold Micro, anyway.
Not sure why all the resistance to RDS. They offer a massive improvement in accuracy to those of us older than 50 whose visual acuity has diminished, I have both trijcon rds and holosun green dot, they have functioned without fail, barring battery change on trijicon. And, yes one can make 100yd body shots with G45 RDS. One still has BUIS on the pistols, in the rare event of failure: to deny yourself such an advantage is silly. Sort of like I don't need a cell phone, my rotary phone is fine. GPS ? Nonsense ! I have my AAA city maps to get me anywhere, that Henry ford is crazy, not given up my horse and carriage!
Not sure why all the resistance to RDS. They offer a massive improvement in accuracy to those of us older than 50 whose visual acuity has diminished, I have both trijcon rds and holosun green dot, they have functioned without fail, barring battery change on trijicon. And, yes one can make 100yd body shots with G45 RDS. One still has BUIS on the pistols, in the rare event of failure: to deny yourself such an advantage is silly. Sort of like I don't need a cell phone, my rotary phone is fine. GPS ? Nonsense ! I have my AAA city maps to get me anywhere, that Henry ford is crazy, not given up my horse and carriage!
Did you watch the video? One can take what they want from it, but there's long list of BTDT that types that people trust, and should, who don't see the value of them as a "must have" addition to a fighting pistol. Some tech is a major improvements, some tech is just the cool new thing all the cool kids have, does not actually offer the major advantages they think they do. When Ken H speaks, people should pay attention at least is my view.
there's long list of BTDT that types that people trust, and should, who don't see the value of them as a "must have" addition to a fighting pistol. .
With all respect due to Mr Hackathorn, I am BTDT, and continue to work with/shoot with dudes that put in work with guns, and continue to carry a gun/shoot for pay. Mr Hackathorn has a set of Ameriglos named after him, but my homies and I think dots are the best thing since sliced bread. I think his iron sights are great, but RMRs are better, and I value my opinion more than his. And my opinion is, I shoot irons when I have to, and shoot dots when I can. They make me look good.
When Ken H speaks, people should pay attention at least is my view.
Ken is looking to continue sales of his products; period, dot.
Like all sales people out there.
The rise of the RDS begins the fall of irons. Just look at rifles; many "BTDT" types don't even have irons on a rifle anymore. While we probably aren't there yet for pistols, if the mentality is 'you don't need a dot inside of 7 yards' on a pistol, the reality is you don't need sights at all inside of 7 yards to get center mass hits -- and a dead RDS is just as good in the offhand chance it fails.
After you put in the time with a RDS, it greatly tips the scales in your favor for speed and accuracy. Doesn't matter what some guy with a gucci mustache says, that is my reality. I don't have as many reps as he does with irons, but I might be close with a RDS and plenty of BTDT types use them.
As always, carry on with your choice.
Good fact based response, thanx. I will shut up and get on the tech one of these days no doubt.
No one is twisting your arm to make you get a red dot. If you don't want one, that's your choice. You certainly don't NEED to get one.
My point is this:
At this juncture, attempting to argue against the usefulness of the technology is pointless, immaterial and simply wrong. I really don't care what Ken Hackathorn has to say in this regard as his points are contrary to reality. I respect what Mr. Hackathorn has DONE, what he HAS contributed. Times change. People should too.
Red dots are not a fad. Period.
The same arguments were probably had around team room tables when red dots started making their way onto rifles. Look at where we are now.
I am sure red dots for pistols and rifles are here to stay.
titsonritz
10-21-22, 15:07
I am sure red dots for pistols and rifles are here to stay.
There are on my guns, don't care much what others do.
With all respect due to Mr Hackathorn, I am BTDT, and continue to work with/shoot with dudes that put in work with guns, and continue to carry a gun/shoot for pay. Mr Hackathorn has a set of Ameriglos named after him, but my homies and I think dots are the best thing since sliced bread. I think his iron sights are great, but RMRs are better, and I value my opinion more than his. And my opinion is, I shoot irons when I have to, and shoot dots when I can. They make me look good.
I'm not claiming his opinion is law, and he's not against RDS on pistols, simply that he's in the category of people who should not be dismissed or ignored, and among similar SME's, opinions will still vary. I tend to take an aggregate of opinions from people I feel have the background to advise, and see what that balance, vs looking for those who reinforce my confirmation bias. Not directed at you, just human nature and well all do it to differing degrees.
PS, just ordered a HOLOSUN HS507C which seems to be well reviewed for the $ and will likely get milled slide via:
https://primarymachine.com/hk-vp9-optic-milling/
Will, I actually think his opinion on this specific topic should be ignored. Again, I respect him, but I also ignore opinions on 416s, Fireclean, mag extensions, BCM, etc from a specific retired Operator.
And I ignore the opinion of a specific doctor that made a name for himself speaking about the importance of “pain as a vital sign”, while being on the payroll of a company that manufactures a product that treats that “sign”. I’m sure he was a perfectly competent doctor before this was discovered, and his opinion was highly impactful, but it was also paid for.
ViniVidivici
10-21-22, 15:35
This isnt the first time he's made statements/videos that demonstrate he's becoming a bit "stale", for lack of a better term (lost my thesaurus in a boating accident).
Every time he puts out an opinion that flies in the face of others' real-world, practical experiences, he becomes less relevant.
It's funny how much of the pistol RDS conversation is the same as rifle/SMG RDSs of the late 90s/early 2000s. Taking a look at who said what and how it ended up informs current dialogue. (There is an allowance for refinement of the tech, training, and employment - but there are still trends.)
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-21-22, 15:36
Did you watch the video? One can take what they want from it, but there's long list of BTDT that types that people trust, and should, who don't see the value of them as a "must have" addition to a fighting pistol. Some tech is a major improvements, some tech is just the cool new thing all the cool kids have, does not actually offer the major advantages they think they do. When Ken H speaks, people should pay attention at least is my view.
There are BTDT guys with OPINIONS on everything. There are BTDT guys who don't and won't own a gun, surely their opinion means nothing here.
I know what RDS have done to my own, and every one around me, pistol marksmanship. Ken Hackathorn could tell me the sky is down and ground is up, but his opinion means nothing when I have seen the facts first hand.
I often look at people who are still shooting irons the same way I look at people who refuse to run an optic on a carbine.....
None of this is to knock Ken, he's an amazing shot and has advanced handgun marksmanship to new heights.
This isnt the first time he's made statements/videos that demonstrate he's becoming a bit "stale", for lack of a better term (lost my thesaurus in a boating accident).
Every time he puts out an opinion that flies in the face of others' real-world, practical experiences, he becomes less relevant.
Exactly. His opinion is not valid on this. I don't care who he is. Mike Pannone, Chuck Pressburg, etc etc etc etc etc are BTDT guys who can prove to you right now why RDS is taking over.
Red dots are not a fad. Period.
The same arguments were probably had around team room tables when red dots started making their way onto rifles. Look at where we are now.
I think anyone who says the pistol RDS is a fad is crazy. I used to hate an RDS on my carbine, but my eyes got older, and I lost the choice. By then the RDS and mount quality was outstanding... I'm waiting for the same with pistol.
It's funny how much of the pistol RDS conversation is the same as rifle/SMG RDSs of the late 90s/early 2000s.
Exactly! We've watched these evolutions play out in various gun developments. I'm waiting for the Aimpoint T-1/H-1 stage of the pistol RDS, and I'm damned sure we aren't there yet.
I'm waiting for the Aimpoint T-1/H-1 stage of the pistol RDS, and I'm damned sure we aren't there yet.
How do you define that?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
How do you define that?
It can be mounted by a caveman, and the dot magically is always on. :cool:
(while we're un-F&*king the concept, add wirelessly rechargeable batreeze too) - no need to take the unit off to changeout batteries.
I’ve been carrying an RDS pistol since 2018, been through numerous RDS user and instructor classes. Teach RDS courses to cops now. They are not the future, they are the present. If you aren’t running one, you likely have zero understanding of what you are missing. If you are against them in any capacity, you are dead wrong and I know you can’t prove otherwise. Are there a few disadvantages over irons? Maybe, but training fixes that.
I’ll throwback to the M4C of old: take an RDS class then get back to us. Kinetic Consulting RDS mechanics and Achilles Baseline Pistol helped me immensely and made RDS make sense.
This ^^^^ I took a RDS low light / no light class in 2018. Done and done. I was completely sold on the pistol mounted RDS. With the exception of my G43 for pocket carry, all of my carry handguns have a RDS and a light.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It can be mounted by a caveman, and the dot magically is always on. :cool:
(while we're un-F&*king the concept, add wirelessly rechargeable batreeze too) - no need to take the unit off to changeout batteries.
Aimpoint P-2, Multiple Holosuns.
They may not quite be to the level of Aimpoint CompM4s, but to think they are fragile things that they were years ago is folly. Also those who's "it always come loose", because for every one of those people there are 10-50-100 who mount it and forget it.
Aaron Cowan at Sage beats the $hit out of RDS and has data on what is good and what isn't that good. He's not the end all be all, but he's putting data out there and for several RDS, it mirrors my experience.
Coal Dragger
10-21-22, 17:25
I like my RDS equipped VP9 a lot. Mine is direct milled.
Probably need to send in the ACRO P-1 for service since it’s blinked off a few times now under use.
If I don’t stay on top of regular practice the dot slows me down compared to irons up close. That said I took a class for the enhanced CCW license in my state (South Dakota), and from concealment was smoking everyone else in class on times and hits… having not shot more than a few hundred rounds that year. I was also the only one drawing from an actual concealment holster. The prior two years I had shot quite a bit though, and a few minutes a day of dry practice helps a lot.
Unlike Mr. Hackathorn I haven’t had a lot of issues finding the dot as the pistol settles back onto target after recoil. Maybe some platforms are just better for that kind of tracking than others and I lucked out?
I'm not claiming his opinion is law, and he's not against RDS on pistols, simply that he's in the category of people who should not be dismissed or ignored, and among similar SME's, opinions will still vary. I tend to take an aggregate of opinions from people I feel have the background to advise, and see what that balance, vs looking for those who reinforce my confirmation bias. Not directed at you, just human nature and well all do it to differing degrees.
PS, just ordered a HOLOSUN HS507C which seems to be well reviewed for the $ and will likely get milled slide via:
https://primarymachine.com/hk-vp9-optic-milling/
They (Primary Machine) have done nice work for me on a slide mill project.
They (Primary Machine) have done nice work for me on a slide mill project.
Good to hear.
Coal Dragger
10-21-22, 18:11
They (Primary Machine) have done nice work for me on a slide mill project.
I can second that. They did my VP9 long slide mill work for the ACRO.
ViniVidivici
10-21-22, 18:36
It can be mounted by a caveman, and the dot magically is always on. :cool:
(while we're un-F&*king the concept, add wirelessly rechargeable batreeze too) - no need to take the unit off to changeout batteries.
Well, if we mount 'em right (proper torque/loctite), they're pretty much mount and forget.
RMR seems to be the only one out there that has to be removed to change batteries, and I would never want such a thing either. Eff that.
Shake awake = always on. Loving that.
Indeed, the Sage Dynamics white paper should put durability concerns to rest, with certain models/types. Great resource, shows which ones failed, which survived. Was one big reason I felt fine going with Swampfox.
It can be mounted by a caveman, and the dot magically is always on. :cool:
We’ve been there for awhile. My RM06 on my Glock 19 has more rounds through it under a wider range of conditions than any of my ARs. Mounting it is about the same procedure as a T2 to a Scalarworks mount and while it isn’t really always on because the battery dies faster than something with shake awake, it lasts about as long as my Aimpoint batteries.
My holosuns have the same mounting process but longer battery life, so…
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Are you guys mounting with adapter plates or directly to the milled slide. Like if I wanted to mount a Holosun on a Glock would it be better to get a MOS glock and use the adapter plate or get a regular glock and have it milled so I could mount the optic directly to the slide?
Are you guys mounting with adapter plates or directly to the milled slide. Like if I wanted to mount a Holosun on a Glock would it be better to get a MOS glock and use the adapter plate or get a regular glock and have it milled so I could mount the optic directly to the slide?
Best is an ATEi cut. But I’ve been happy with my MOS and FCD plate so that makes the MOS much easier and probably cheaper.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
But I’ve been happy with my MOS and FCD plate so that makes the MOS much easier and probably cheaper.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Same. I have an MPS on an FCD ACRO plate and it's rock solid so far. I like the future proofing idea of modular cuts vs dedicated cuts. I did the direct mount option with a few RMRs (back in 2014) and now in 2022 I regret it.
I shot the window out of an RMR a couple of years back and I'm still saddled to an RMR on that pistol. I'd rather have an ACRO but I can't without a new slide. I won't do a dedicated cut again.
It can be mounted by a caveman, and the dot magically is always on. :cool:
- no need to take the unit off to changeout batteries.
Have you tried the Leupold DeltaPoint Micro?
Are you guys mounting with adapter plates or directly to the milled slide. Like if I wanted to mount a Holosun on a Glock would it be better to get a MOS glock and use the adapter plate or get a regular glock and have it milled so I could mount the optic directly to the slide?
If you are going Holosun their SCS uses the MOS cut and screw holes with no adapter needed.
If you go with the 509(mounting is similar to 1913/Weaver), the plate that comes with it utilizes an RMR plate which gets it on the pistol, but otherwise kinda sucks due to 2 plates making it sit very high plus the Glock plate isn't the best idea ever. Holosun makes an optional 509 plate that bolts to the MOS cut for a normal height set up that I have been happy with while some other posters here have said they like the C&H Precision plate that appears functionally the same as the Holosun optional 509 to MOS plate I went with.
For the Holosun 507/508, go with a C&H plate over the MOS adapter that comes with the pistol. The C&H is a much better design than Glock's.
Nothing against Forward Contral Designs, but their product descriptions indicate they don't support Holosun mounting interfaces(in particular, included screw lengths) so I went C&H for a 508 adapter.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-22-22, 09:15
I hate CHPWS, that said, I have two plates from them that have been absolutely solid: G43X Holosun 507K plate and Glock MOS 509T plate. My Forward Controls ACRO plate has also been utterly solid. My buddy has a Staccato plate from CHPWS that is trash, and I have a Sig plate from them that is equally garbage.
All of my factory MOS plates have sucked.
Irons fly off, get knocked loose, etc all the time. Magazines break, guns break, etc etc etc. If you havent adopted RDS because we aren't "there yet", then you've missed the last two to three years of having already been here.
Are you guys mounting with adapter plates or directly to the milled slide. Like if I wanted to mount a Holosun on a Glock would it be better to get a MOS glock and use the adapter plate or get a regular glock and have it milled so I could mount the optic directly to the slide?
What model Holosun are you looking at?
What model Holosun are you looking at?
I'm still learning about the different models. But some of the other posters have mentioned the new Holosun model that mounts directly to a Glock MOS slide and is low enough to work with factory sights. So I'm liking the sound of that.
The EPS is what got me around to trying a pistol dot. Enclosed without being giant, side loading battery. An enclosed option that I could fit on a carry gun was important for me.
The SCS looks good, but I don’t think they can make an enclosed version because of where the mounting screws are at. Same with the RMR footprint.
I was leaning pretty hard towards direct milling a Glock for the EPS, then I bought a Sig that is factory cut for the EPS carry.
ViniVidivici
10-22-22, 12:33
I'm lucky enough to be using G19s, and enjoying the plethora of cheap but good quality aftermarket slides available.
Aaron Cowan’s instagram posts in response to the video and other’s comments are pretty good. This one statement from Aaron, a guy who I’d say is the pistol RDS SME says a lot:
“Sorry, it's time to try and be better, not celibate the mediocrity of 600 year old technology.”
The EPS is what got me around to trying a pistol dot. Enclosed without being giant, side loading battery. An enclosed option that I could fit on a carry gun was important for me.
The SCS looks good, but I don’t think they can make an enclosed version because of where the mounting screws are at. Same with the RMR footprint.
I was leaning pretty hard towards direct milling a Glock for the EPS, then I bought a Sig that is factory cut for the EPS carry.
I can see how an enclosed optic would be preferable if not essential on a carry gun. The SCS on a MOS slide seems like it could be the easy button to get into pistol red dots though. Did you go for the normal width EPS or the slimmer "carry" version?
I'm lucky enough to be using G19s, and enjoying the plethora of cheap but good quality aftermarket slides available.
What's a good brand you've used? I've got a 17. Maybe just buying a slide and a dot would be a better way to go than setting up a whole new gun.
ViniVidivici
10-22-22, 16:00
It'd certainly be cheaper.
Aim Surplus, PSA Dagger (not sure if they're doing a 17 length one though), and Brownells.
Brownells is absolutely the best bang for the buck, but the other two are cheaper.
I took one of our new recruits out today because to his own admission he barely made it through the police academy quals. I made him shoot my ACRO'd G19 and there was a. No learning curve, he picked it up instantly, and b. Went from minute of man at 15 yards to 25 yard headshots. He is now wondering why everyone doesn't have them. Going back to irons only and he was shooting much better.
I did a little myth busting. Much respect for Mr Hackathorn but red dots are the now and here to stay. If you don't have one, you're behind the times.
I am seeing lots of agencies in Michigan switching to them. Hell, even the FBI has them for SWAT and HRT and they take forever to adopt stuff. I imagine they'll trickle down to the line workers eventually.
Slightly OT but man that ACRO has made a lot of believers out of people saying they would never have an RDS equipped handgun.
I can see how an enclosed optic would be preferable if not essential on a carry gun. The SCS on a MOS slide seems like it could be the easy button to get into pistol red dots though. Did you go for the normal width EPS or the slimmer "carry" version?
I’m waiting on them to re-stock, so I might end up starting with the open equivalent (407k or 507k) for now. My new Sig is a P365 Macro so it fits the carry sized EPS.
I’m not too worried about the first one being enclosed, it can end up going on a training gun or .22 if the dot works out.
Gary1911A1
10-23-22, 04:19
They look to be 4 to 6 weeks out, but this seems a decent price. I ordered one so the wait begins. https://www.opticsplanet.com/holosun-scs-mos-solar-charging-sight.html
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.