View Full Version : What sidearm for carbine courses?
I'm slowly acquiring the gear I'll need to start doing some carbine courses in2009. I was hoping some of the veterans could give me some advice about what sort of pistol is appropriate. I'd like to use something that would also be a good carry weapon/holster.
Specifically...
Would a non-collapsing IWB holster be appropriate?
Any problem with using a compact?
Generally, what range are you engaging targets at?
Any minimum as far as magazine capacity (for instance a compact .45 may only be 6+1)?
I know that these issues will vary from instructor to instructor but I just wanted to get some general ideas.
Robb Jensen
12-24-08, 07:50
Glock 17 or 19 or S&W M&P9.
For a holster, either a good belt holster or a Safariland 6004/5.
Jay Cunningham
12-24-08, 07:53
I'm slowly acquiring the gear I'll need to start doing some carbine courses in2009. I was hoping some of the veterans could give me some advice about what sort of pistol is appropriate. I'd like to use something that would also be a good carry weapon/holster.
Specifically...
Would a non-collapsing IWB holster be appropriate?
Any problem with using a compact?
Generally, what range are you engaging targets at?
Any minimum as far as magazine capacity (for instance a compact .45 may only be 6+1)?
I know that these issues will vary from instructor to instructor but I just wanted to get some general ideas.
This is an extremely broad question - don't get too hung up on it.
Don't get too hung up on "getting the right gear" to do a carbine class either. Class comes first, then gear. The instructor will let you know the minimum requirements.
Generally IWB holsters are not used in carbine classes, but some instructors will let you use them and some will encourage them.
I don't think a compact would be an issue, but you would be better off using a larger framed pistol, generally speaking - they tend to be easier to shoot.
Pistol transitions are generally done inside 25m. Pistol drills in the class may go out to shooting steel at greater than 100m.
The capacity of the 1911 is the minimum, I'd say. More importantly is to keep an appropriate number of magazines on your person.
The best thing you can do is talk with the individual instructor beforehand. FWIW, most pistols I see in classes are Glock 17's and 19's, S&W M&P 9's an 45's (full size) and semi-custom or custom 1911's. I see a smattering of SiG's and H&K's as well.
Gutshot John
12-24-08, 07:59
I'm slowly acquiring the gear I'll need to start doing some carbine courses in2009. I was hoping some of the veterans could give me some advice about what sort of pistol is appropriate. I'd like to use something that would also be a good carry weapon/holster.
Specifically...
Would a non-collapsing IWB holster be appropriate?
Any problem with using a compact?
Generally, what range are you engaging targets at?
Any minimum as far as magazine capacity (for instance a compact .45 may only be 6+1)?
I know that these issues will vary from instructor to instructor but I just wanted to get some general ideas.
Well you want a gun that's going to be reliable, especially if you only have one. So shoot it quite a bit before you go to class.
1. A pistol is an individual choice. I'd suggest a 9mm platform and go from there.
2. An IWB holster may or may not be appropriate depending on the instructor. As such I'd still with a standard duty/belt holster or a thigh rig.
3. Compact should be fine.
4. Generally inside of 20 yards with sidearm/transitions.
5. No minimum as such, though the greater the capacity, the less you'll have to load. A compact 1911 should be ok so long as it's reliable.
Thanks for all the good responses so far. I'll probably go with an M&P 9mm and save for a Wilson CQB. The reason I ask about a IWB is that I'm a civilian so this is by far the most likely way I'll be carrying. I could certainly get a drop holster just for courses but I'd rather train with a holster that I'll be using on a regular basis.
Alpha Sierra
12-24-08, 08:51
I did one class with a revolver at my side in a pancacke. It is what I carry the most.
John Frazer
12-24-08, 08:53
In my experience, the handgun segment of long gun classes tends to assume some prior handgun training. Personally, as a private citizen, I'd put handgun training as a higher priority than carbine training, then take a carbine class with whatever handgun you've been trained with.
Beyond that, any reliable, durable handgun that fits your hand and has decent sights and a decent trigger. You'll probably be unnecessarily compromised in terms of shootability if you use some kind of subcompact. Also, most instructors are geared toward semi-autos (because they're now 3/4 or more of the U.S. handgun market, and far higher than that in LE and military use), so showing up with a revolver may throw people off.
As for holsters, I can't say I've studied every policy of every carbine instructor, but I can tell you from personal experience that InSights Training Center has no problem with anyone using an IWB. The only limitation (which applies to all holsters for their classes) is that the holster must be "rigid." I took their rifle and shotgun classes with a Kramer IWB #3, which is what the instructors were using for both courses, too.
I noticed on Pat Rogers' website the other day that he doesn't allow IWBs for his pistol classes, but doesn't state this limitation for carbine classes. In a case like that, I'd follow the policy that it never hurts to ask. If the IWB isn't allowed, I'd get a belt holster that carries the pistol at a similar location and angle, such as the Kramer belt scabbard as an alternative to the IWB #3.
Alpha Sierra
12-24-08, 09:17
I've taken one out of three handgun classes with a revolver and the instructor did not bat an eye. I've asked about using wheelguns in the other two classes and even though I used semis, both instructors told me they had no problems with wheelguns. All they asked is that you bring lots of speedloaders. Not a problem, they are cheap.
Back on the topic of holsters. Definitely ask ahead. I know that Suarez International has two policies concerning holsters: 1) Blackhawk SERPAs are not allowed in any class, period. 2) Belt (IWB or OWB) holsters are not allowed in rifle classes if you wear a chest rig. Policy #2 stems from an AD caused by a chest rig strap getting caught in the trigger guard of a Glock as the pistol was being reholstered. If you wear a chest rig to a Suarez rifle course you must wear a holster below the belt or on the chest rig itself.
Based on the wording of your question, I would suggest a Glock 17 or M&P9 with an OWB kydex holster and mag pouches -- on a sturdy belt like a 5 stitch Wilderness.
The people I have seen use IWB holsters in combined classes were usually VERY proficient in the use of a pistol, knew how to draw from IWB without sweeping the other people on the line, and were above average pistol shooters.
Most IWB holsters I've seen are meant to be worn at the 4 or 5 o'clock position on a righty. Other than appendix carry, obviously - but those holster are kinda rare. Making a draw stroke on a line pretty "interesting".
I would HIGHLY suggest a pistol course before the carbine course, or a 1 day pistol 2 day carbine, or something similar.
John Frazer
12-24-08, 13:46
I've taken one out of three handgun classes with a revolver and the instructor did not bat an eye. I've asked about using wheelguns in the other two classes and even though I used semis, both instructors told me they had no problems with wheelguns. All they asked is that you bring lots of speedloaders. Not a problem, they are cheap.
Fair enough and I should have put a great big YMMV on my comment about revolvers.
I do think it's fair to say (based in part on the AARs and pictures I see here) that revolvers are not "the norm" in defensive long gun classes today, and the proportion of instructors who have serious experience (especially operational experience) is likely declining. Two thirds of all handguns made in the US in the last 20 years have been semis, according to BATFE production stats, and imports would certainly skew that even farther.
In the four handgun classes I've taken over the last 10 years, I've seen only three or four revolvers, and one of those was carried by an instructor. In the three long gun classes I've taken in the same time period, no student used a revolver.
Gutshot John
12-24-08, 14:05
In my experience, the handgun segment of long gun classes tends to assume some prior handgun training. Personally, as a private citizen, I'd put handgun training as a higher priority than carbine training, then take a carbine class with whatever handgun you've been trained with.
+1. That's a very true statement though I'm not sure they "assume" prior handgun training, so much as the students are invariably in desperate need of it.
Nonetheless a pistol class will help you be a better carbine shooter, the reverse isn't the case.
I'm slowly acquiring the gear I'll need to start doing some carbine courses in2009. I was hoping some of the veterans could give me some advice about what sort of pistol is appropriate. I'd like to use something that would also be a good carry weapon/holster.
Specifically...
Would a non-collapsing IWB holster be appropriate?
Any problem with using a compact?
Generally, what range are you engaging targets at?
Any minimum as far as magazine capacity (for instance a compact .45 may only be 6+1)?
I know that these issues will vary from instructor to instructor but I just wanted to get some general ideas.
Kind of depends on the course. If it is a carbine course, you generally are not going to shoot more than a couple hundred rounds (depending on how many times your carbine fails for the instructor wants to practice transitions).
An IWB could work, but it depends on many variables (like are you wearing a chest rig, belt rig, etc). I would generally say that an IWB holster is not the best choice.
I would avoid taking a compact as you might be shooting at 25yds (or farther).
Mag capacity should not matter.
C4
LukeMacGillie
12-24-08, 14:29
1911 of course, because anything else would be un-American:D
That being said, Ive never been able to do any training courses with a 1911 since Ive always been issued a Beretta or a SIG.
This comming summer when my favorite M4C banned trainer comes to Indiana I will finally get to do a course with my 1911 since I dont have an issue weapon at the moment:cool:
I think you need to decide what is a good 1911 for you, and get some training on that before you try and add a new 1911 to the mix off everything new you will learn in a carbine class.
G19/17...KISS
Ditto........with at least 3 mags.
As a general rule, remember that part of the reason you're taking the course is to learn what the instructor thinks about gear, etc. Therefore, don't spend too much money up front getting ready for class only to learn that you walked in with a bunch of crap, or a bunch of stuff the instructor thinks is crap. Some instructors can't help but spend inordinate amounts of training time berating students' equipment choices. It's stupid, but it's common.
Don't buy a handgun for a class. Buy a handgun that works for you given your broader needs and goals. Then bring that to the class. Not to sound snide, but if your skill & experience level is such that this is your first class and you're asking on the internet for advice about which gun to buy, your skill & experience level is going to be the limiting factor in your performance ... not your choice of pistol.
I carry in an AIWB all day every day. The only reason I'd use a different holster in a class was if I were using armor or a chest rig that prevented me from drawing the gun from IWB/AIWB. This then leads to the question, "Why are you wearing that rig if you don't touch it except for class?"
An instructor would need to give me a very good reason why an IWB holster wasn't allowed in his class before I'd sign up. And "they're not safe" isn't going to cut it ...
zippygaloo
12-24-08, 15:55
delete
Jay Cunningham
12-24-08, 16:55
I was thinking about following the lead of the tacky yellow visor guy
:p :p
In my experience, the handgun segment of long gun classes tends to assume some prior handgun training. Personally, as a private citizen, I'd put handgun training as a higher priority than carbine training, then take a carbine class with whatever handgun you've been trained with.
This is what I'm doing. Unless open carry is a job requirement, I don't foresee ever carrying openly, so my training will be done with an IWB holster or an OWB holster in the same spot.
The only reason I'd use a different holster in a class was if I were using armor or a chest rig that prevented me from drawing the gun from IWB/AIWB. This then leads to the question, "Why are you wearing that rig if you don't touch it except for class?"
'Cause it's smart stuff and bears repeating. I'm reconsidering the M4 LE chest rig I currently have and am highly considering a Hawkepaks E&E Bug Out Bag or something similar, since it's more likely that if something happens where I'm pulling a rifle, I'm more likely to sling over a should bag than put on a chest rig (which I haven't figured out how to do quickly). It should also be noted that the Eagle M4 chest rig's belt strap buckle sits directly on top of where I carry my pistol, which is a definite no-go I haven't thought through a solution for yet.
-B
Iraq Ninja
12-25-08, 01:25
Carbine:
Considering I don't have any other options...Would a 14.5" with perm flash hider, CTR Stock, 5.56MM chamber be acceptable or allowed?
As long as the carbine is legal, it is good to go. Doesn't matter what brand of stock it has or the caliber.
I guess a little background might help. I wasn't interested in guns at all until the first AWB. I was 19 at the time and decided I'd better pick something up. I got an AK and later an M1A (that I couldn't really afford) and would take these to the range a few times a year. I later got into hunting and pickup up a few more guns specific to the type of hunting I was doing. More recently a combination of more time and money (finished medical residency) and another anti-gun administration in the works has kicked up my interest if firearms again. Based on research on this site I ordered a Colt 6920 the day after the election. Now I'd like to get more into shooting as a hobby. My knowledge of handguns is minimal. Like I said, my motivation in the past has been based on gun bans and hunting so I never had much use for them up until now.
So, I do plan on getting some handgun training but that can be done fairly easily and locally and doesn't require the planning and upfront gear purchasing that I am now doing for the carbine training. I may be asking more dumb noob handgun questions over the next few weeks.
As long as the carbine is legal, it is good to go. Doesn't matter what brand of stock it has or the caliber.
Although I think I see your point, not all carbines are created equal. You couldn't compare a Colt to DPMS. There's shot peening, MP testing, proper staking of the keys, 4150 instead of 4140 steel, chrome lining. The list goes on.
Jay Cunningham
12-25-08, 12:15
Although I think I see your point, not all carbines are created equal. You couldn't compare a Colt to DPMS. There's shot peening, MP testing, proper staking of the keys, 4150 instead of 4140 steel, chrome lining. The list goes on.
BWYoda,
I suspect Iraq Ninja has a handle on it.
;)
BWYoda,
I suspect Iraq Ninja has a handle on it.
;)
Roger that!
Alpha Sierra
12-25-08, 13:20
Although I think I see your point, not all carbines are created equal. You couldn't compare a Colt to DPMS. There's shot peening, MP testing, proper staking of the keys, 4150 instead of 4140 steel, chrome lining. The list goes on.
None of which, with the exception of bolt staking which can be easily fixed at home, makes any difference for the use that 99% of us put them through.
Pistol Course before carbine.
Treat it as walk before you run.
Any 9mm, .40 or .45 reliable handgun is a good choice.
AS - I tend to disagree on your broad brush for the 99% of M4C posters.
I think a large amount of them are active shooters and course go'ers that do find the flaws of lesser brands.
I dont think its snobbery to buy a 'brand' name weapon if your going to take advantage of its benifits.
Iraq Ninja
12-25-08, 15:40
BWYoda,
I suspect Iraq Ninja has a handle on it.
;)
LOL, but I fly off the handle every now or then.
BWYoda is correct of course. I just didn't want to see someone show up with a 14.5 upper without a legally attached flash suppressor. It has been known to happen :).
Someday I hope to take out my old Colt Sporter and run it thru a carbine course with jungle fatigues and LBE :)
Alpha Sierra
12-25-08, 16:26
AS - I tend to disagree on your broad brush for the 99% of M4C posters.
I think a large amount of them are active shooters and course go'ers that do find the flaws of lesser brands.
I dont think its snobbery to buy a 'brand' name weapon if your going to take advantage of its benifits.
I am one of them active shooters and course go'ers. But we should not confuse a flaw with a different material that is perfectly suited for the job.
A crack in a bolt is a flaw. You can hedge your bets with one that has been MP tested or you can roll the dice with one that isn't. The two ARs I've had, neither has had an MP tested bolt. One survived about 5500 rounds before I sold the rifle, and I assume it's still there banging away. The other has 2065 rounds and is still in one piece. BTW, MP inspection can only detect surface or near surface flaws. Flaws deep in the inside of the bolt or bolt carrier will go undetected by this NDT method.
Lack of chrome lining or 4140 barrel steel are not flaws. They are perfectly good materials that have slightly different properties. Lack of chrome lining means a little more attention to corrosion protection must be given. The metallurgical differences between 4140 and 4150 are meaningless unless one is to engage in heavy volumes of automatic fire.
There is nothing wrong in purchasing more than what you need. But there is also nothing wrong in seeing that the differences between some of these mil-spec items and their commercial equivalents are way overblown. The 4140 vs 4150 debate is a never ending source of amusement.
As I said before, some features are critical. What has to be staked needs to be staked. What has to be torqued needs to be torqued. There are significant differences in metallurgy between 6061 and 7075 aluminum alloys, so I want my lower to be 7075. But other differences I do not sweat. My carbine's barrel is 4150 chrome lined. But if it were 4140 non lined I would not lose one second of sleep over it.
Merry Christmas, BTW ;)
BTW, MP inspection can only detect surface or near surface flaws. Flaws deep in the inside of the bolt or bolt carrier will go undetected by this NDT method.
Your point is taken, especially with some companies which batch test, but I'd rather have one that's been MP tested over one that hasn't.
My carbine's barrel is 4150 chrome lined. But if it were 4140 non lined I would not lose one second of sleep over it.
Having seen non-lined barrels get shot out after 3000 rounds of casual use, I'm going to opt for chrome lined every time.
zippygaloo
12-25-08, 16:46
delete
Alpha Sierra
12-25-08, 17:11
Having seen non-lined barrels get shot out after 3000 rounds of casual use, I'm going to opt for chrome lined every time.
It depends on the use given to it.
I routinely got about 3500 to 4000 rounds out of a SS match AR barrel before accuracy worsened beyond 1 to 1.5 MOA at 600 yards. But that was with NM rifles where the worst string of fire was 10 rounds in 60 seconds. Even at that point, their accuracy from 300 in was still stellar and would last another 5 to 7 thousand rounds. Longer if you just wanted minute of man.
If you are dumping mag after mag after mag, then I can see a barrel being shot out to where it won't hold 4 MOA at 200 yards in 3000 rounds.
But I don't do that, and I wager that most people here won't with the cost of ammo as it is nowadays.
Alpha Sierra
12-25-08, 17:15
I believe I asked whether a "14.5" with perm flash hider" would be acceptable or allowed? I guess I should have said "with perm YHM Phantom Flash Hider" that brings it to 16". Also I have a Young Mfg. BCG and the bolt carrier key is properly staked (Rainer Arms).
Nobody as of yet has answered my question in regards to...
Pistol:
Considering I don't have any other options...Would a Colt Delta Elite 10mm be acceptable or allowed?
Anyone care to respond to the 10mm question.
Dude, you are fine.
NOBODY is going to pay attention to such details. If your rifle has a barrel shorter than 16" everyone assumes you have the paper for it. It's your rifle. No one is going to look at your bolt carrier, flash suppressor, barrel length, pistol brand, pistol caliber, or number of mags unless you become "That Guy".
I went to carbine class once with a S&W Model 65 (that's a revolver, btw). No one cared.
Go to class, learn and enjoy.
zippygaloo
12-25-08, 17:51
delete
Alpha Sierra
12-25-08, 18:03
Who is "that guy"?
That Guy is the guy that keeps slowing down class because of his constant issues. Issues with gear or weapons not working. Issues with trigger or muzzle discipline. Issues with negligent discharges. Issues with his lack of basic skills necessary for the class he is taking.
Don't be That Guy.
But not being That Guy is easy. Make sure that you have the pre-requisite skills listed in the class description. Be honest with yourself. Go to the range a few times and be sure you can perform those basics adequately. KNOW how to handle a loaded firearm without endangering others. Know the basic manual of arms for all the firearms you are taking. Don't have to be lightning fast, just smooth. Wear your support gear at home and know that you can access what you need to access without issues.
Simple stuff.
QuickStrike
12-25-08, 19:32
That Guy is the guy that keeps slowing down class because of his constant issues. Issues with gear or weapons not working. Issues with trigger or muzzle discipline. Issues with negligent discharges. Issues with his lack of basic skills necessary for the class he is taking.
Don't be That Guy.
But not being That Guy is easy. Make sure that you have the pre-requisite skills listed in the class description. Be honest with yourself. Go to the range a few times and be sure you can perform those basics adequately. KNOW how to handle a loaded firearm without endangering others. Know the basic manual of arms for all the firearms you are taking. Don't have to be lightning fast, just smooth. Wear your support gear at home and know that you can access what you need to access without issues.
Simple stuff.
Yeah, that and bringing a decent carbine that doesn't crap the bed. :p
One time at gun camp, an instructor looked at someone's rifle and immediately suggested that one of his loaners be used instead...
Probably would be better to test your carbine and mags with at least a few hundred rounds before class, and not bringing gunshow reloads or something silly.
zippygaloo
12-26-08, 01:02
Anybody have an opinion on this Load Carriage for Training Class (http://www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/8343/56227.html) setup?
Iraq Ninja
12-26-08, 03:31
Anybody have an opinion on this Load Carriage for Training Class (http://www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/8343/56227.html) setup?
Rob's advice is a good starting point. Your gear setup will be dictated by how you imagine it will be used in real life, if that is a concern. It will also change over time as you get more experience with it. For instance, I have done away with all drop down sub loads on my legs because I don't like to run with them on.
My dump bag is located directly at my six o'clock (rear) on my belt, so that it can be accessed by both hands. A dump bag full of mags or IV bags flops around a lot, and this location makes it more bearable.
I try to make all my gear ambidextrous. My pistol is on my vest and my forearm covers it while carrying my rifle because I often work around crowds and don't want someone grabbing my pistol out of a side rig. My med kit is located on my belt at the 12 o'clock over my crotch.
Oh, and your Delta Elite should be fine for the course as long as it is functional and you trust it to go bang all the time. That is why I like Glocks...
In regards to rifle length, I doubt anyone will question you about a less than 16 inch barrel, but keep in mind that LEO often attend these classes and may make an issue out of it.
Rob's advice is a good starting point.
Thanks. :D
Zippy-
As everyone else has posted, gear selection is personal, and should be based on honest use by the shooter. The article on my site was in reaction to people constantly asking me "what should I take?" I posted what works for me and why (along with links since most people seem to be google deficient as well), and from there everyone is going to have their own take.
I could not possibly agree more with whoever it was that said to take a pistol class first. Franly I think it should be a mandatory prerequisite for any and all carbine courses.
But not being That Guy is easy. Make sure that you have the pre-requisite skills listed in the class description. Be honest with yourself. Go to the range a few times and be sure you can perform those basics adequately. KNOW how to handle a loaded firearm without endangering others. Know the basic manual of arms for all the firearms you are taking. Don't have to be lightning fast, just smooth. Wear your support gear at home and know that you can access what you need to access without issues.
Awesome post
As everyone else has posted, gear selection is personal, and should be based on honest use by the shooter. The article on my site was in reaction to people constantly asking me "what should I take?"
Exactly, what works for Rob isn't going to work at all for me. I'm a lefty long gun shooter and a righty pistol shooter, and have a different build than, so I'm different than about 99% of other shooters. I'm always running into gear placement issues and conflicts.
For a first course, I'd try to go as minimalist and modular as you can possibly go. As long as you have a platform with empty space, you can always add, remove, and change things up as needed.
Looking at load carriage as a system is the key, regardless of placement and actual gear selected. Hopefully that comes through in my article, in between my recomendations of specific gear. The mindset used to select gear is, IMHO, univeral in that you need to make sure that it all works together on your body.
That said, classes are a way to suss out your gear. You just have to know when to 86 something that isn't working and not get tied up with the cost or "coolness" of a specific item.
Whatever pistol you decide to take, make sure you have plenty of mags/speedloaders or whatever. Look at what the instructor reccomends and take more. The last class I took, I carried my 1911 as it was what I carried most often at that time. I had no issues, but did alot more reloads and jamming of mags than those using more modern high-cap pistols. I used a Safariland belt holster designed for CCW as it was what I used most often and what I would use most often after the class. I had no issues with it. As long as you are comfortable with and have some proficiency with the pistol, I wouldn't stress to much over it. Just take a good supply of mags. Good luck in your choice and classes!
-RD62
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