I just can't get away from the AR.

[olds442tyguy]

It's official. Every time I see a potential replacement, things go to shit.

SL8/G36. Expensive and not very durable. :o

ACR. I've accepted the fact I'll likely never be capable of owning one. :(

SCAR. They dropped a bomb on me in the form of the price tag. :mad:

AUG. They dumped the A3, but kept it's price tag. :confused:

556. It's not a 551. :rolleyes:


I've also long been planning a side charging piston driven AR, but have always put it off because of the rifles above. I've realized having hope in even the biggest coolest gun company is futile. It's time to start doing instead of hoping. The AR makers have always been pretty stable, so I'm saying screw it.

[Jay Cunningham]

What precisely is it about the AR platform that you don't you like?

[decodeddiesel]

What precisely is it about the AR platform that you don't you like?

That's what I'm wondering too.

[Dave L.]

My buddy and I had the same exact conversation tonight after finding out about the price tag on the new AUG $2,300+. It's funny how 3 companies can come out with American made AUG or AUG style weapons, none of which people are extremely excited about.
With all these "great" firearm companies out there, I'm extremely let down to say the least.
There is nothing on the market worth replacing a 6920 IMHO. I will definately not be the first in line for a SCAR, I want one, but not at twice the price of a good AR.
Bushmaster IMHO really dropped the ball on the ACR, I'm sure we will see a new version at SHOT this year that will never be available on the civilian market. I guess I'm just losing faith in the firearms industry(to come up with new weapons).

[decodeddiesel]

My buddy and I had the same exact conversation tonight after finding out about the price tag on the new AUG $2,300+.
With all these "great" firearm companies out there, I'm extremely let down to say the least.
There is nothing on the market worth replacing a 6920 IMHO. I will definately not be the first in line for a SCAR, I want one, but not at twice the price of a good AR.
Bushmaster IMHO really dropped the ball on the ACR, I'm sure we will see a new version at SHOT this year that will never be available on the civilian market. I guess I'm just losing faith in the firearms industry(to come up with new weapons).

There is a point where innovation in a technology simply plateaus and development takes over. Are we there yet with small arms technology? Maybe. Maybe the AR is the plateau for a shoulder fired, center fire, "tactical" rifle. Perhaps everything we're seeing from the 1950s on is simply development. Who knows...

[olds442tyguy]

What precisely is it about the AR platform that you don't you like?
The buffer assembly. I don't like the added length for storage. I don't like the stock not being able to fold.

The charging handle. Not only do I not like it's placement from an ergonomic standpoint, I also don't like that it vents gas in your face more so than other platforms.

Modularity to change calibers and barrel lengths. Sure it beats an AK, but a system like what's used on the ACR is genius. The MRP is expensive, and still slower.

Monolithic receivers. The VIS and MRP are nice again, but they are an upgrade and not a standard. Having to buy expensive goofy mounts to properly use a magnified optic is just plain annoying.

The sights. Just my opinion, but the AR takes the worst from bladed sights, and the worst from ghost rings sights. They're slower and obstruct the sight view more so than traditional ghost rings or blades. (For me at least?)

Dirtiness. I'm not arguing from a combat standpoint as I don't expect to ever be in combat anytime soon, but having the increased maintenance can be a pain.


I don't have any serious complaints, I just think there are better methods of operation out there. Unfortunately for me, they either aren't offered in a single package, or they made my list above.

[kal]

Yeah I understand what the OP is thinking.

I think the same way, more or less.

Sometimes you get a vision, something good but it never happens...

"Come on Armalite! You can do it! Give us an AR180b with reinforced front pivot lugs, pivot pins that don't use an e-clip, and an external bolt release! All for around $1,000! Come On Armalite, I believe in you! Can you do it?"

Armalite :"no"

"AWWWWWWWWWWW, damn."


Sometimes you just accept the market the way it is and deal with it. <<<Now where have I heard that before? :D

[M4arc]

What is the price tag on the SCAR?

[ScottW]

Have you looked at the Para-Ordanance? Just saw the website on it yesterday, so I don't know anything about it, but it does have a folding stock.

[kal]

What is the price tag on the SCAR?

Isn't $2,700?

[BAC]

So, basically an ACR, then. Just gotta wait for them to come out.

Am I weird or does the ACR seem kinda beefy to anyone else? As in, maybe unnecessarily so? Something that could be trimmed down a little? I love the design otherwise. Fugly, but looking at it in a form-follows-function perspective it's sexy as hell.


-B

[Mark-VA]

Am I weird or does the ACR seem kinda beefy to anyone else? As in, maybe unnecessarily so? Something that could be trimmed down a little?
-B

Don't know if you're weird or not, but I agree the ACR looks pretty chunky. Oh well.

[kal]

What's this talk about the ACR? It's not like you'll be getting one anytime soon.

Here's some pics to tease.:D

http://www.gun-world.net/usa/magpul/masada/magpully.jpg

[Dport]

Have you looked at the Para-Ordanance? Just saw the website on it yesterday, so I don't know anything about it, but it does have a folding stock.

The P-O gun is licensed copy of the Z-M modified DI gun. $2300 is a bit steep for the privilege, however.

[kal]

I don't get the obsession with folding stocks that some people have. I have experienced that there isn't really any use for a folding stock.

(My feelings regarding folding stocks are not the result of the fact that I live in MI and would need a pistol permit/registration to buy a folding stock rifle that's under 30 inches folded) :p

[Bat Guano]

I tend to agree with the plateau concept to some extent. The 1911 is a pretty good tool, and the basic K frame revolver is never a mistake. Possibly the same with Glocks even though I don't much care for them.

My first acquaintance with the AR platform was courtesy of Uncle in 1966. I don't get warm fuzzies from it, but the one I have is an awfully good tool for what I have in mind.

Unless we get another John Browning we may be "plateaued" for a while yet.

[Submariner]

The buffer assembly. I don't like the added length for storage. I don't like the stock not being able to fold.

The charging handle. Not only do I not like it's placement from an ergonomic standpoint, I also don't like that it vents gas in your face more so than other platforms.

Modularity to change calibers and barrel lengths. Sure it beats an AK, but a system like what's used on the ACR is genius. The MRP is expensive, and still slower.

Monolithic receivers. The VIS and MRP are nice again, but they are an upgrade and not a standard. Having to buy expensive goofy mounts to properly use a magnified optic is just plain annoying.

The sights. Just my opinion, but the AR takes the worst from bladed sights, and the worst from ghost rings sights. They're slower and obstruct the sight view more so than traditional ghost rings or blades. (For me at least?)

Dirtiness. I'm not arguing from a combat standpoint as I don't expect to ever be in combat anytime soon, but having the increased maintenance can be a pain.


I don't have any serious complaints, I just think there are better methods of operation out there. Unfortunately for me, they either aren't offered in a single package, or they made my list above.

Why not buy a Masada, then?


Oh.


Made of unobtanium...:rolleyes:

[AirmanAtwood]

Why not buy a Masada, then?


Oh.


Made of unobtanium...:rolleyes:

The masada is now called the bushmaster ACR

[Savior 6]

I understand the OP completely. IMO the AR has finally come into it's own, but only after decades of upgrades and new techniques. With all of the weapons knowledge out there a new Battle Rifle should be born. And it would be more impressive if it were and American Company.

Magpul had me with the Masada. A rifle that used all the lessons from previous platforms and brought new ideas to the table. They lost me though when BM took over . Aesthetically its less appealing and the new charging handle seems to have good intentions, but it reminds me of the G3s with that awkward to reach handle to charge the weapon. However the foremost reason being I would like to see the smaller, more innovative, American Companies like Magpul and Robinson Armament come to the forefront and on their own without being "tainted" by the larger institutions. And can we get the damn thing for less than $2,000? Maybe around a more affordable price of $1,300-$1,500, even $1,700 at the highest.

And why hasn't the bull pup been improved. All the weapons knowledge and the trigger pull is still that push bar type of the 10lb variety instead of one the is more like that of a pistol with a sear trip. How about an ambidextrous model that can be converted in the field or by the user without buying extra parts. MSAR did make a nice, modern version of the AUG, so did TDI with the NATO (non-ambi) stock, and already the Sabre AUG is not going to be the A3. And these all floated around the $2,000 mark. They do seem cheap though when compared to the SCAR's price tag. Ouch!

I definitely won't believe that weapons technology has plateaued with the AR either. Hell they finally put pistons on the things. If it would have come like that from the get-go it could have possibly saved even more lives. One could argue that it is very reliable, so is the M14/M1A, M1 Garand, 1903 and those were no plateaus either. It's time to move forward.

[decodeddiesel]

I understand the OP completely. IMO the AR has finally come into it's own, but only after decades of upgrades and new techniques. With all of the weapons knowledge out there a new Battle Rifle should be born. And it would be more impressive if it were and American Company.

Magpul had me with the Masada. A rifle that used all the lessons from previous platforms and brought new ideas to the table. They lost me though when BM took over . Aesthetically its less appealing and the new charging handle seems to have good intentions, but it reminds me of the G3s with that awkward to reach handle to charge the weapon. However the foremost reason being I would like to see the smaller, more innovative, American Companies like Magpul and Robinson Armament come to the forefront and on their own without being "tainted" by the larger institutions. And can we get the damn thing for less than $2,000? Maybe around a more affordable price of $1,300-$1,500, even $1,700 at the highest.

I agree with you there brother. The Masada was designed by a bunch of gun-geek military veterans. They took what works and threw away what didn't to build the Masada. I understand why they licensed the design to Cerebus (BM) as they just don't have the production capabilities in house, but I agree they have gone astray since then.


And why hasn't the bull pup been improved. All the weapons knowledge and the trigger pull is still that push bar type of the 10lb variety instead of one the is more like that of a pistol with a sear trip. How about an ambidextrous model that can be converted in the field or by the user without buying extra parts. MSAR did make a nice, modern version of the AUG, so did TDI with the NATO (non-ambi) stock, and already the Sabre AUG is not going to be the A3. And these all floated around the $2,000 mark. They do seem cheap though when compared to the SCAR's price tag. Ouch!

I thought bull-pups were cool until I actually fired an Australian AUG and a SA80. The platform is great, right up until it comes time to do an emergency re-load. Having to un-shoulder the rifle, bring it WAY out in front of you to check the chamber and be able to see the new magazine go in, then have to reach way back to release a bolt is not conductive to a fast reload. Yeah I'm sure there are FS2000, and AUG users here who will disagree with me but it is what it is.

Remember most rifleman in the military who would be using this new rifle have only a primary, transitioning to a secondary is not an option, therefor reloads must be fast and easy. This is an area where the AR shines and the Masada really shines with the ambi everything and new bolt release location.


I definitely won't believe that weapons technology has plateaued with the AR either. Hell they finally put pistons on the things. If it would have come like that from the get-go it could have possibly saved even more lives. One could argue that it is very reliable, so is the M14/M1A, M1 Garand, 1903 and those were no plateaus either. It's time to move forward.

Aside from complete water immersion, name one thing a piston AR does better than a DI AR. Yes they run a little cleaner and cooler, but that's really about it. US Military personnel are so damn stringent about weapons maintenance that I'm not too sure how much good a piston system is going to be to them, and I really have yet to see a piston design that really "blows my skirt up" both as an engineer and a former soldier/armorer. The SCAR gas systems is nice and simple and probably the best out there, but my statement still stands.

Well I'd like to not believe that we're at a plateau either but when you really look at it, it sure appears that way doesn't it? ;)

[30 cal slut]

plateau?

fooey.

when they come out with an m4 in a phase plasma (40 watt output) offering that can be recharged by your car cigarette lighter, then we will have reached the pinnacle of small arms development.

;)

[CarlosDJackal]

plateau?

fooey.

when they come out with an m4 in a phase plasma (40 watt output) offering that can be recharged by your car cigarette lighter, then we will have reached the pinnacle of small arms development.

;)

Phooey on the cigarette lighter system. I want one that has built-in Solar panels that also work on low-light and an output of no less than 60 watts and the size of a P90. :p

[decodeddiesel]

plateau?

fooey.

when they come out with an m4 in a phase plasma (40 watt output) offering that can be recharged by your car cigarette lighter, then we will have reached the pinnacle of small arms development.

;)

True that ;)

[Mr.Goodtimes]

plateau?

fooey.

when they come out with an m4 in a phase plasma (40 watt output) offering that can be recharged by your car cigarette lighter, then we will have reached the pinnacle of small arms development.

;)

will these come in FDE? what about high cap mags? standard usgi? will pmags work with the plasma?

[boltcatch]

Yeah I understand what the OP is thinking.

I think the same way, more or less.

Sometimes you get a vision, something good but it never happens...

"Come on Armalite! You can do it! Give us an AR180b with reinforced front pivot lugs, pivot pins that don't use an e-clip, and an external bolt release! All for around $1,000! Come On Armalite, I believe in you! Can you do it?"

Armalite :"no"

"AWWWWWWWWWWW, damn."


Sometimes you just accept the market the way it is and deal with it. <<<Now where have I heard that before? :D

Armalite keeps saying they're dead set on making the AR-180 be a cheaper cousin to the AR-15 - they don't WANT to make a more expensive weapon. Basically they think they're competing with the Mini-14's. And as long as they don't fix the glaring deficiencies in the weapon, they are.

They'd have a winner if they offered something as durable and accurate as an AR for that price point.. but they're not.

[Savior 6]

when they come out with an m4 in a phase plasma (40 watt output) offering that can be recharged by your car cigarette lighter, then we will have reached the pinnacle of small arms development.

;)

Isn't that a Phase Plasma Rifle with a 40watt range? And I want mine in foliage green damnit.