View Full Version : Abrams X MBT
I don't care if MBT's are look more and more outdated for modern wars, we need those!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjX5JE_3T5k
Coal Dragger
12-02-22, 16:18
I don’t think MBT’s are outdated.
I think the Russians just don’t know how to do combined arms worth a shit. If you can’t support your armor with dismounted infantry to keep enemy ATGM’s suppressed, and then drive your tanks right down the middle of a road where it’s easy to predict your location… you are gonna get some turrets popped off.
Averageman
12-02-22, 19:52
I dunno, I was on tanks like 35 years. All of that looks like an answer for a question nobody asked.
I'm pretty highly critical at this point.
For the cost of one B-21 ($700 million) they could upgrade a lot of Abrams.
Averageman
12-02-22, 20:48
For the cost of one B-21 ($700 million) they could upgrade a lot of Abrams.
Well, they don't seem to use the money very well.
For instance, the CROWS system to fire the M2 was always faulty, costly and was a major weakness. So much so one US Division Commander asked that he be allowed to go back to the old M2 mount. How did the Army react to that? They put Crows on nearly all of their STRYKERS.
When you're moving forward in a tank you really want to do a lot of recon by fire, that makes sense. So why reduce the number of rounds available to do so by monkeying around further with a failed system?
Coal Dragger
12-02-22, 21:52
A good friend of mine works for General Dynamics teaching the latest greatest CROWS.
He claims it is a significant improvement over the older ones he used when he was in 1st Tank Battalion before retiring.
Averageman
12-02-22, 22:04
A good friend of mine works for General Dynamics teaching the latest greatest CROWS.
He claims it is a significant improvement over the older ones he used when he was in 1st Tank Battalion before retiring.
The major problem with the CROWS us putting it correctly in travel mode along with it being a pita to work on, it's just too delicate for tanks.
hotbiggun42
12-02-22, 23:13
meticulously Built Tank
I wonder how many thousands of these tank killer drones China is producing?
https://www.globaltimes.cn/Portals/0/attachment/2022/2022-08-30/65918f15-79ba-4065-a200-17bd82d6647c.jpeg
I don’t think MBT’s are outdated.
I think the Russians just don’t know how to do combined arms worth a shit. If you can’t support your armor with dismounted infantry to keep enemy ATGM’s suppressed, and then drive your tanks right down the middle of a road where it’s easy to predict your location… you are gonna get some turrets popped off.
The demise of the MBT has been a topic well before Ukraine. Can't use the Russians as a reason/example of MBTs are outdated.
I dunno, I was on tanks like 35 years. All of that looks like an answer for a question nobody asked.
I'm pretty highly critical at this point.
We are 'Murica, we need the most complex expensive gear.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-04-22, 01:31
MBT have supposedly been obsolete since what, the ‘67 war?
Averageman
12-04-22, 06:36
MBT have supposedly been obsolete since what, the ‘67 war?
I dunno man, I can assure you that 25 years after '67 I was commanding a tank in a war. People have been saying the tank was obsolete since the suitcase sagger, it's simply not true.
When operated by experianced crewmen under a Combined Arms attack, with fire and manuver, they're pretty darned effective. You're moving with covering fire from Artillery and Infantry that are moving with you, it's very workable system.
The problem is that Commanders have no idea how to use tanks.
Tankers are the Firemen of the battlefield, you don't lead with firemen, you use your Infantry and find or create a gap or a flank, exploit it and we will be there with you, just call.
Counterattack coming up against you? No really, just give us a call. We will stop that stuff and plug the gap like a cork plugs a bottle.
Got some random Infantry harrassing your hospital ? (I actually enjoyed this one) Give us a call, we will come light them up.
But what you never want to hear as a Tanker is;
"We push the Tanks forward then we will be right behind you." Because, no really, in all actuality you won't be there.
You might have great intentions but you're not fast enough and everyone loves to shoot at a tank so things will be very busy for us.
So while we will be kinda busy up here shooting at folks and getting shot all while you cross the LD late. The situation keeps evolving so you wont have an idea when you get here whats going on.
And when you finally get up here along side us, you're late to the party and I really am kind of too busy to explain it all to you.
And that folks is how you lose tanks uneccasarily.
It doesn't need to be complex, it just need a good cannon, great fire control and lots of machine guns.
Russia and Ukraine aren't the only ones having issues with tank losses. A few years ago Turkey sent some Leopard 2A4's (not the later uparmored variants) to fight ISIS (or maybe the Kurds?), and they lost around 10 Leopards to a combination of factors. These included mines/IED's and AT5/AT7 missile systems.
https://i.imgur.com/w9DuJYr.jpg
It doesn't need to be complex, it just need a good cannon, great fire control and lots of machine guns.
Mobile, protected, firepower. Not much out there that provides all three as well as an MBT.
It's about more than just fire control and firepower though. Perhaps I'm reading too much into your statement but at least two of the three are out of balance vs. advanced threats.
Current (Western) MBTs are too heavy, w/many adding 10-20T over their original designs while engines and running gear have not advanced at the same rate as other systems. The added weight adds to the logistical footprint, both maintenance and the ability to get to battle quickly.
Trophy restores some of the protection vs. some ATGMs (and reputedly top-kill threats....maybe) but overall protection isn't keeping up with airborne top-attack threats and APS adds to the logistical footprint as well.
Averageman
12-10-22, 20:15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb4L8ThDymQ
This will explain a lot about the Russian Tanks going tits up in Ukraine.
The 30mm cannon seems like a great addition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfLniq-dL5k
Averageman
12-11-22, 09:57
The 30mm cannon seems like a great addition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfLniq-dL5k
I can appreciate it, but loading and old school M2 .50 cal was a doable thing, the damned ammo tray fell right in to the Loaders hatch.
I'm all for putting bigger holes in things, but imagine reloading that under fire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb4L8ThDymQ
This will explain a lot about the Russian Tanks going tits up in Ukraine.
No doubt they did everything wrong to make it worse, but the view MBT's are becoming less valuable is nothing new. USMC getting rid of tanks is pretty telling. Some of it makes sense their specific mission, some is general such as use modern long-range, precision fire they utilize as will our enemies making the investment in tanks not worth it. Drones, man portable systems, IED's etc etc is making the MBT harder to justify $ and survivability wise, or at least that's the reasoning. Per OP, while I see MBT's having less value on modern battlefields, I'm sure big Army still wants them in the arsenal and I suspect with infantry and CAS, that AbramsX would be demoralizing to face and hard to kill. Like much of our tech, maybe we will end up focused on tech over numbers, but I want AbramsX tanks ready to rock.
One my favorite military scifi series was the Bolo tank series (https://infogalactic.com/info/Bolo_(tank)), massive self aware tanks that kick alien a$$.
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