View Full Version : Railworker issues, lay them out for us.
I'm looking to gain a better understanding of this. I know we have members in the industry here. I've seen plenty of comments in other threads to that effect speaking to working conditions.
So if y'all don't mind spending a little time bitching about the man I would like a better understanding of your concerns. I know there has been a lot said already but it's some here, some there. Bits and pieces spread over many threads.
If you can, keep the heat low and paint us a picture.
Averageman
12-03-22, 11:02
I would like to know also because I think looking at this story from the surface, the .gov got involved and screwed you.
Apparently Dems get enough money from the teachers and other Gov employee unions. Real working people unions are beginning to and will continue to move away from Dems. They know it and don’t have any plans to reverse it. So under the bus working people go as soon as they become inconvenient.
That’s my main takeaway.
I would like to know also because I think looking at this story from the surface, the .gov got involved and screwed you.
That isn’t possible, XiDen is all about the working man, just ask him.
Coal Dragger
12-03-22, 14:36
I would like to know also because I think looking at this story from the surface, the .gov got involved and screwed you.
Go read the Railway Labor Act of 1926. That will explain how Congress has authority to get involved.
Cliff notes of late:
1.) The big class 1 RR’s starting around 2015 or so adopted “Precision Scheduled Railroading” officially or unofficially to appease activist investors. PSR is none of the things it claims to be. It’s all about cutting costs to improve operating ratio. So cut employee headcount, defer maintenance, run off low margin customers, and slow down trains by making them huge and underpowered to “save” on crew starts and power.
2.) Since that time we have seen a roughly 30% reduction in craft and operating employees. In order to force those of us remaining to be available to do all the work, draconian attendance policies are in place to make taking time off very difficult and eventually punishable by termination.
3.) Since they ran off so many employees now they can’t effectively run their railroads if operating conditions deviate from optimal. A problem of their own design, the RR’s solution is of course to eliminate more jobs. So they have been trying to get rid of conductors on freight trains. Their thinking being that one man train crews will be easier to staff. Never mind the fact operationally it is a bad idea.
4.) With those goals of screwing employees over they entered contract negotiations in 2020 with no intention of negotiating in good faith. Their proposal was to give minuscule raises that would be pay cuts once health insurance costs were factored in. For conductors they demanded a pay cut for any remaining after eliminating the majority of positions.
5.) Many steps in the RLA and a couple of years later we arrived at Congress and POTUS imposing the findings of a Presidential Emergency Board on us. We got more money than RR’s wanted to give us, RR’s got some work change rules that will make everyone more miserable. Paid sick leave wasn’t addressed and the RR’s oppose it not because of how much 7 sick days cost, but because they are so understaffed they can’t let people have time off.
6.) Congress and POTUS did exactly what the RR’s wanted and prevented a strike, taking away the only real leverage employees have in negotiating. This is why they started the entire process unwilling to negotiate in good faith. The RLA just about guarantees they never have to.
Go read the Railway Labor Act of 1926. That will explain how Congress has authority to get involved.
Cliff notes of late:
1.) The big class 1 RR’s starting around 2015 or so adopted “Precision Scheduled Railroading” officially or unofficially to appease activist investors. PSR is none of the things it claims to be. It’s all about cutting costs to improve operating ratio. So cut employee headcount, defer maintenance, run off low margin customers, and slow down trains by making them huge and underpowered to “save” on crew starts and power.
2.) Since that time we have seen a roughly 30% reduction in craft and operating employees. In order to force those of us remaining to be available to do all the work, draconian attendance policies are in place to make taking time off very difficult and eventually punishable by termination.
3.) Since they ran off so many employees now they can’t effectively run their railroads if operating conditions deviate from optimal. A problem of their own design, the RR’s solution is of course to eliminate more jobs. So they have been trying to get rid of conductors on freight trains. Their thinking being that one man train crews will be easier to staff. Never mind the fact operationally it is a bad idea.
4.) With those goals of screwing employees over they entered contract negotiations in 2020 with no intention of negotiating in good faith. Their proposal was to give minuscule raises that would be pay cuts once health insurance costs were factored in. For conductors they demanded a pay cut for any remaining after eliminating the majority of positions.
5.) Many steps in the RLA and a couple of years later we arrived at Congress and POTUS imposing the findings of a Presidential Emergency Board on us. We got more money than RR’s wanted to give us, RR’s got some work change rules that will make everyone more miserable. Paid sick leave wasn’t addressed and the RR’s oppose it not because of how much 7 sick days cost, but because they are so understaffed they can’t let people have time off.
6.) Congress and POTUS did exactly what the RR’s wanted and prevented a strike, taking away the only real leverage employees have in negotiating. This is why they started the entire process unwilling to negotiate in good faith. The RLA just about guarantees they never have to.
Did anyone in Congress or the Administration tell the RR’s to stop dicking the dog and hire more people?
How many PTO days in total does a RR employee get per year?
Pacific5th
12-03-22, 16:18
I work for the same outfit as Coaldragger. What he said is spot on. I won’t add to that but tell you guys what the working conditions/pay are vs what the RR’s say.
First off time off. Most RR jobs for Engineers/Conductors (TY&E) do not have a schedule or days off. Some do like yard jobs or locals but for my terminal 80% of us work the road. That means for most of us we get on a train at point A and get off at point B. These runs can be anywhere from 6-12 hours with most being around 10 hours. Anything over 12 we can be on the train still but not operating it. That happens frequently with my record being 23 1/2 hours on duty. When we get to point B we must go to a hotel for a minimum of 10 hours before they can call us again. Frequently we are in the hotel 12-24 hours. Then you go home again. I’d say an average time away from home is 30-36 hours. These jobs are not scheduled and have no set days off. Due to bad train lineups from the carriers we often get surprised when we get called. Example it looks like you will work at 0800 but surprise your phone rings at 2200. Time at home can be anywhere from 12-40 hours but for the last three months my longest at home time was 17 hours. 14-15 is the norm.
Now until early this year those of us with no schedule or days off could take 2 weekends and 5 weekdays off a month which was 1-3 less than a 9-5 M-F worker but we made it work. Early this year my outfit came up with a scheme called Hi-Viz where we get 30 points. M-Th cost you two points. Fri-Sat is 4 and Sunday is 3. If you use those points you must work/be available 14 days straight to get 4 points back. If you get to zero you get reprimanded and go back to 15. Do that twice more and you’re fired. So I’m essence with still no days off and no schedule if I layoff more then 2-3 times a month I will be fired in a year.
The RR’s claim we can still take time off but it’s a lie. We that are left are working constantly exhausted. Most of us are on a train 200-240 hours a month with 150-200 in a hotel I guess. We are tired and upset and just want the ability to take reasonable time off.
They also claimed we make 130-160k a year in a few statement. We may have a few that make 130k but no where near the majority is making that much.
Basically most of us just want the ability to take a reasonable amount of time off for faimily stuff/doctors/being sick without getting fired. I would also love to see our train lineups more accurately reflected so we can better know when we will work.
There is so much more but I did just get off a train after an all night run and I’m tired. I apologize if there’s any spelling or grammar errors in here. I typed this up on my phone in a hotel room lol.
Pacific5th
12-03-22, 16:24
Did anyone in Congress or the Administration tell the RR’s to stop dicking the dog and hire more people?
How many PTO days in total does a RR employee get per year?
A new employee gets 2PLD and one week of vacation. It goes up with years. You can max out at 6weeks of vacation after 25 years and I think 8 or 10PLD’s
One of the issues though is the RR’s control how many people can use that on any given day. For my board of 100 people we have 10 slots a day and if they fill up your shit out of luck. We have many that carry these days over because they just can’t use them.
StainlessSteelRat
12-03-22, 16:34
Just for context, I hired out on AT&SF in the early 90s, and we were crazy busy then. Back then though, we could call and lay off, whereupon you were off until you marked back up, at your discretion. Very few people abused that, as you gotta be marked up to make any $. For half of my career, that's how it was. It was fun then, when you could carry the Rules and the System Timetable in your pocket. Now, you'd need a backpack or plenty of room on an electronic device:mad:
Glad I'm done, is all I can say.
A new employee gets 2PLD and one week of vacation. It goes up with years. You can max out at 6weeks of vacation after 25 years and I think 8 or 10PLD’s
One of the issues though is the RR’s control how many people can use that on any given day. For my board of 100 people we have 10 slots a day and if they fill up your shit out of luck. We have many that carry these days over because they just can’t use them.
That’s pretty generous and a full week more vacation at 25 years than I had, also no carry-over. You don’t use it in the year you lose it.
Plenty of roles limit your ability to take vacation. I had to work through my 2 weeks of vacation last December because stuff happened that needed to be managed. I didn’t get it back and nobody cared on Jan 1st. I am well compensated and didn’t cry about it either.
That’s called life.
I’m salaried, not associated with a union because as you can see, they take your dues and talk big but in the end serve no purpose other to enrich those running the union.
Coal Dragger
12-03-22, 17:41
You take a lot of random calls at 0100 and spend huge amounts of time away from home? How many days off a month do you have in your job?
If you’re not subject to this bullshit schedule, your opinion is decidedly uninformed.
Furthermore, vacation does not carry over, paid leave days/annual leave days do. It is exceedingly difficult to get paid leave days approved though. So we might as well not have them.
When I first heard the issues were quality of life I assumed it was a low staffing issue, created by the RR's to cut costs.
The lack of a schedule and basically being on-call all the time is BS.
I worked in transportation for a state gov.
I spent a few years working on-call but I knew it would end as I got seniority.
They still had ways to screw the employee, and did.
I know a RR strike would affect the entire country but I was rooting for the employees and wouldn't have minded seeing a strike, just to prove a point.
Coal Dragger
12-03-22, 17:53
There would have been no strike had Congress and POTUS merely told the RR’s and Unions that we’re on our own.
A strike would have hurt RR’s way more than workers, and that leverage would have worked to get the very reasonable concessions we were seeking.
The RR’s bluffed (or more likely bought) Congress and POTUS, and used the cudgel of govt’ power to compel a business deal on a group of unwilling people.
You take a lot of random calls at 0100 and spend huge amounts of time away from home? How many days off a month do you have in your job?
If you’re not subject to this bullshit schedule, your opinion is decidedly uninformed.
Furthermore, vacation does not carry over, paid leave days/annual leave days do. It is exceedingly difficult to get paid leave days approved though. So we might as well not have them.
How does on call 24x7x365 grab you? When the proverbial shit hits the fan I make it go away. In a very heavily regulated environment btw.
Coal Dragger
12-03-22, 20:14
How often does your job entail actual 24/7/365?
How much time are you away from home for?
Again you can make the claim you are on call, but that doesn’t mean that’s the majority of your hours. So what is the breakdown? What percentage of your hours in a year are actual middle of the night woken from a dead sleep, get up, go to work, and be gone for 36 or more hours before you’re back home to do it again in 14-15 hours?
My guess is less than 10% because only someone doing that very occasionally would be stupid enough to talk a lot of shit like you do.
If multiple individuals in an industry are telling you something is a problem it’s called a clue.
How often does your job entail actual 24/7/365
Clearly you don’t understand what 365 means. Regardless, that’s all you’re getting.
Remember, the party that helps the working man is in power, all will be fine. Just ask them.
Inkslinger
12-03-22, 20:49
All jobs can be hard. Remember no one forced anyone in this country into any line of work. You’re also not forced to stay. I work for a public works department. Do I get vacation days and work a five day week? Sure, but I can also get called in the middle of the night for all types of things. I’ve been almost hit by cars. I’ve had to dive out of the way of a falling tree and electric lines during a hurricane. Have you ever plowed snow for 5 straight days with maybe 4 hours of sleep? Granted that was an extreme situation, but 24-48 hours of work with an occasional cat nap in the truck is a way of life for me. With that said, it sounds like RR workers are getting a raw deal. If I were them I would find another job and quit. Or suck it up and accept it.
Coal Dragger
12-03-22, 21:01
All jobs can be hard. Remember no one forced anyone in this country into any line of work. You’re also not forced to stay. I work for a public works department. Do I get vacation days and work a five day week? Sure, but I can also get called in the middle of the night for all types of things. I’ve been almost hit by cars. I’ve had to dive out of the way of a falling tree and electric lines during a hurricane. Have you ever plowed snow for 5 straight days with maybe 4 hours of sleep? Granted that was an extreme situation, but 24-48 hours of work with an occasional cat nap in the truck is a way of life for me. With that said, it sounds like RR workers are getting a raw deal. If I were them I would find another job and quit. Or suck it up and accept it.
We are probably going to lose a lot of junior employees once they get their back pay.
Ironically it could be worse than a strike, if rail customers think their service is super shitty now just wait until 5-10% more RR employees quit. The RR’s do not have the manpower margin to cover that kind of loss.
Coal Dragger
12-03-22, 21:11
Clearly you don’t understand what 365 means. Regardless, that’s all you’re getting.
Remember, the party that helps the working man is in power, all will be fine. Just ask them.
I am quite well aware of 27/7/365 that is my only schedule.
Given your reluctance to answer my question I will take that to mean you occasionally get called outside of normal hours, but I’ll guess you do have normal hours.
Basically, the schedules you describe are better than most truckload drivers and equivalent to many LTL drivers, particularly newer drivers. I’m not unsympathetic. But railroads got in bed with the .gov over a century ago, as did then the worker unions. This is the price that is paid for demanding more back then. Super essential. Can’t shut down.
What is average pay for different level RR employees? Typically, market demands that a poor quality but needed job will have fewer applicants and demand higher pay to get what is needed.
Something isn’t working right here. My guess is that pay is higher than most have been willing to let go (walk away), so operations are not affected enough to actually consider improvements. Enough people walk away, things will change. Some trucking companies have figured this out.
Coal Dragger
12-03-22, 21:41
Basically, the schedules you describe are better than most truckload drivers and equivalent to many LTL drivers, particularly newer drivers. I’m not unsympathetic. But railroads got in bed with the .gov over a century ago, as did then the worker unions. This is the price that is paid for demanding more back then. Super essential. Can’t shut down.
What is average pay for different level RR employees? Typically, market demands that a poor quality but needed job will have fewer applicants and demand higher pay to get what is needed.
Something isn’t working right here. My guess is that pay is higher than most have been willing to let go (walk away), so operations are not affected enough to actually consider improvements. Enough people walk away, things will change. Some trucking companies have figured this out.
Pay is tough to answer for you as an average. Different crafts pay different hourly rates, and train crews are usually paid based on mileage of the run. It’s safe to say that most are going to be making $75-$100K or so with exceptions on the lower and higher side. Figure senior employees will hold higher paying jobs, and will make more than I am guesstimating. Take home pay is lower than you might expect due to paying Tier 1 and Tier 2 Railroad Retirement, so figure about double what you would pay into SS each pay period.
Prior to the madness that is PSR, it was acceptable money vs inconvenience. That equation has changed, especially for newer employees who do not have much vacation or paid leave days (that are hard to get approved).
It is now to the point that my road cannot fill new hire conductor classes. The word is out about how people are treated, and not many want to do this shit under current conditions. I have been at this for almost 16 years and I have never observed staffing issues this bad. Not even 10 years ago new hire conductor classes would have a huge number of applicants for a handful of jobs. Now the RR’s literally can’t find people while offering sign on bonuses.
RR management doesn’t seem to understand the new reality, they share a similar mentality to HK Guns. Which is to say they’re miserable turds to work for and make no effort to adapt management style and policy to improve employee/employer relationships. They’re stuck in 2009 mentality where there are 300 people lined up for every job, when it’s 2022 and there’s 300 vacant jobs for every one applicant.
Pay is tough to answer for you as an average. Different crafts pay different hourly rates, and train crews are usually paid based on mileage of the run. It’s safe to say that most are going to be making $75-$100K or so with exceptions on the lower and higher side. Figure senior employees will hold higher paying jobs, and will make more than I am guesstimating. Take home pay is lower than you might expect due to paying Tier 1 and Tier 2 Railroad Retirement, so figure about double what you would pay into SS each pay period.
Prior to the madness that is PSR, it was acceptable money vs inconvenience. That equation has changed, especially for newer employees who do not have much vacation or paid leave days (that are hard to get approved).
It is now to the point that my road cannot fill new hire conductor classes. The word is out about how people are treated, and not many want to do this shit under current conditions. I have been at this for almost 16 years and I have never observed staffing issues this bad. Not even 10 years ago new hire conductor classes would have a huge number of applicants for a handful of jobs. Now the RR’s literally can’t find people while offering sign on bonuses.
RR management doesn’t seem to understand the new reality, they share a similar mentality to HK Guns. Which is to say they’re miserable turds to work for and make no effort to adapt management style and policy to improve employee/employer relationships. They’re stuck in 2009 mentality where there are 300 people lined up for every job, when it’s 2022 and there’s 300 vacant jobs for every one applicant.
Then walk away. You’re not an indentured servant and no one is holding a gun to your head.
Your unions are telling you they’re going to get you more paid time off, but what good will it do when you’re not allowed to take it? But hey, don’t worry. The most pro-union POTUS ever wouldn’t leave a union at the altar just because Warren Buffett turned his head, right?
Coal Dragger
12-04-22, 04:08
I am halfway to retirement, it’s a bit late in the race to change horses and fortunately for me I have some seniority. Getting vacations and paid leave days approved is easier with seniority. Seniority determines who gets days off or vacation approved, if two guys out in for the same day the senior guy gets it. In two more years I will pick up my 4th week of vacation, and a couple of more paid leave days.
The harsh attendance policies hurt the young guys and gals the most, and they’re the ones the RR’s desperately need to attract and retain. I was once in their shoes, and try to look out for their interests too.
If you enjoy things like electricity, fuel, food, and other necessities that are hauled via rail you too need and want strong staffing and operational resilience at the nations RR’s. Right now a lot of our supply chain problems and some inflation can be laid right at the doorstep of management at the big class 1’s. Go read up on customer complaints about the state of the industry, or watch the most recent STB hearings.
We have major problems and management is intentionally ignoring their obligations as a common carrier in the interests of maximizing profit. Keep in mind most of the physical property at one point was pretty much given to what are now these big RR’s by the US government with the understanding that they had to maintain service standards. They’re now abusing that gift granted by prior generations, and screwing over customers and employees to pump up their stock prices and profits in the near term.
What concerns me, and should concern everyone is the long term consequences of short sighted management decisions they have greatly harmed the workforce, equipment, and plant of the nation’s freight RR’s. There is no resilience left in the system as it currently stands. We can’t even handle mild growth in traffic to support an economic recovery and ease supply chain issues. Now imagine we had a real emergency where the country needed the ability to rapidly ramp up the ability to move massive amounts of material via rail. Not too long ago we could have done it, but not anymore. Not even close.
That should scare the hell out of everyone.
Well, I’m going to tip my cards here and say that my opinion is the same as I had with GMC and Chrysler over a decade ago.
Someone will step in and manage better, unless you’re “too big to fail” or “too vital.” And when unions are involved, things get more complicated, because every needed change has to get approval from some **** who really doesn’t care about the worker or the company…just them dues.
The answer is clear: increase pay by $20,000 or fix management and union involvement. If you only do the first and not the last, it’s just kicking the can down the road. And a strike doesn’t change Option B. Failure does. Or a good leader. But most good leaders aren’t going to want to deal with the union.
I worked swing shift for 10 years, pulled 58 days in a row once and routinely made 30-40k in overtime each year. I took a 20k pay cut to get out of it and at that point I was pretty high on the seniority list. It sucked losing that money but it was the best thing I did. We had basically the same deal, our union couldn't strike. I did another stint in a group that had 24/7/365 guys but I was in a support role then, I was on straight days. Several times when I was in the parking garage I had to turn around and go back because of an issue. Luckily it was mostly just chained to my phone and being called all hours of the day and night, even on vacation I was working. That was 40hrs paid and all that extra time was a gift to the company. Luckily long lunches helped off set that a little. Only time I got away and totally unplugged was when we took a cruise but as soon as we ported on the way back I was on the phone for 2 hours as we were driving back home (wife was not happy). Luckily now, 24 years later I'm in a retirement gig. My phone rings maybe twice a year after hours but I have guys under me that handle the day to day stuff. I feel for y'all, especially on the long days and what they consider "off time". I've had crappy management and a crappy couple of years but I've also had good management when a crappy year happened. I much prefer good management, it makes the turd sandwich easier to go down. Sounds like the RR needs an overhaul starting at the top! My guys would all but hide a body for me and some would probably help me dig a hole. I am lucky to have a great relationship with them because I manage up and down better than the last couple of guys and when a crappy week or month happens, I'm right there with them in the trench.
My folks are union and I am no fan of the union (was in the IBEW for 10 years and hated them then too). In my experience the union protected the bottom feeders and that made it worse for everyone else. We all made the same base pay in the position when I was on swing shift which I hated, I want to be paid on my skills and abilities. Some laid out and were lazy as can be but they'd be the first one to file a grievance if they even felt like they were getting screwed. I'm sure unions were needed at some point but if they'd police their own a little better I think it would help or at least not have a no strike clause... Luckily I have no union issues but their rules hurt my folks more than it helps them.
I wanted out of my gig so bad that I spent every waking moment I could working on my degree. It took me all 10 years on shift work but I finished my undergrad and got a masters degree in-between crap loads of overtime. I was a zombie for much of that time but luckily I found a school that would let me do everything online which helped a ton. Plus a wife that was a great supporter of that goal.
I’m trying to remember the term for it…isn’t the generally used term for sleeping on the job a direct reference to how train engineers would trade off sleeping while both were supposed to be on duty? Been a while since I studied for the certification. Maybe “strawbedding” but that sounds odd to me.
OutofBatt3ry
12-04-22, 12:17
I work for the same outfit as Coaldragger. What he said is spot on. I won’t add to that but tell you guys what the working conditions/pay are vs what the RR’s say.
First off time off. Most RR jobs for Engineers/Conductors (TY&E) do not have a schedule or days off. Some do like yard jobs or locals but for my terminal 80% of us work the road. That means for most of us we get on a train at point A and get off at point B. These runs can be anywhere from 6-12 hours with most being around 10 hours. Anything over 12 we can be on the train still but not operating it. That happens frequently with my record being 23 1/2 hours on duty. When we get to point B we must go to a hotel for a minimum of 10 hours before they can call us again. Frequently we are in the hotel 12-24 hours. Then you go home again. I’d say an average time away from home is 30-36 hours. These jobs are not scheduled and have no set days off. Due to bad train lineups from the carriers we often get surprised when we get called. Example it looks like you will work at 0800 but surprise your phone rings at 2200. Time at home can be anywhere from 12-40 hours but for the last three months my longest at home time was 17 hours. 14-15 is the norm.
Now until early this year those of us with no schedule or days off could take 2 weekends and 5 weekdays off a month which was 1-3 less than a 9-5 M-F worker but we made it work. Early this year my outfit came up with a scheme called Hi-Viz where we get 30 points. M-Th cost you two points. Fri-Sat is 4 and Sunday is 3. If you use those points you must work/be available 14 days straight to get 4 points back. If you get to zero you get reprimanded and go back to 15. Do that twice more and you’re fired. So I’m essence with still no days off and no schedule if I layoff more then 2-3 times a month I will be fired in a year.
The RR’s claim we can still take time off but it’s a lie. We that are left are working constantly exhausted. Most of us are on a train 200-240 hours a month with 150-200 in a hotel I guess. We are tired and upset and just want the ability to take reasonable time off.
They also claimed we make 130-160k a year in a few statement. We may have a few that make 130k but no where near the majority is making that much.
Basically most of us just want the ability to take a reasonable amount of time off for faimily stuff/doctors/being sick without getting fired. I would also love to see our train lineups more accurately reflected so we can better know when we will work.
There is so much more but I did just get off a train after an all night run and I’m tired. I apologize if there’s any spelling or grammar errors in here. I typed this up on my phone in a hotel room lol.
I was always fascinated by trains and have nothing but respect for those sticking it out; but at the end of the day, nope.
That's a terrible way to waste your life away, coming from a man who toils in a blue-collar employment.
I was always fascinated by trains, and nothing but respect for those sticking it out, but at the end of the day, nope.
That's a terrible way to waste your life away, coming from a man who toils in a blue-collar employment.
A few months back, I got an email from a recruiting firm...They had two jobs in my area they were trying to fill. One was an Apprentice Signalman for BNSF and the other was Server at Appleby's. Thought to myself..."Well, Not much of a choice there...Definitely Appleby's."
It's kind of a shit deal all around. This was a railroad town forever, and I remember it being a really good gig back in the day. Now, all I hear is horror stories about it.
Maybe at this point I should say that I am not uncaring about rail workers’ plights. My younger sister’s boyfriend fell between two couplers and had his pelvis turned to mush. It’s rough, and I respect anyone who does hard work and works hard.
But I wonder if part of the issue with recruiting and retention isn’t that the job is horrible for the pay. Perhaps the world has just become accustomed to easier work for more pay.
I bet $500 I could get some African acquaintances to move here and kill it at those jobs with a grateful attitude.
That’s a reflection on American culture overall more than simply rail workers. By a bad company culture just makes things worse.
Inkslinger
12-04-22, 13:23
Maybe at this point I should say that I am not uncaring about rail workers’ plights. My younger sister’s boyfriend fell between two couplers and had his pelvis turned to mush. It’s rough, and I respect anyone who does hard work and works hard.
But I wonder if part of the issue with recruiting and retention isn’t that the job is horrible for the pay. Perhaps the world has just become accustomed to easier work for more pay.
I bet $500 I could get some African acquaintances to move here and kill it at those jobs with a grateful attitude.
That’s a reflection on American culture overall more than simply rail workers. By a bad company culture just makes things worse.
You’re not alone in thinking that. There’s a lot of soft men walking around our country thinking they’re hard men.
I am halfway to retirement, it’s a bit late in the race to change horses and fortunately for me I have some seniority. Getting vacations and paid leave days approved is easier with seniority. Seniority determines who gets days off or vacation approved, if two guys out in for the same day the senior guy gets it. In two more years I will pick up my 4th week of vacation, and a couple of more paid leave days.
The harsh attendance policies hurt the young guys and gals the most, and they’re the ones the RR’s desperately need to attract and retain. I was once in their shoes, and try to look out for their interests too.
If you enjoy things like electricity, fuel, food, and other necessities that are hauled via rail you too need and want strong staffing and operational resilience at the nations RR’s. Right now a lot of our supply chain problems and some inflation can be laid right at the doorstep of management at the big class 1’s. Go read up on customer complaints about the state of the industry, or watch the most recent STB hearings.
We have major problems and management is intentionally ignoring their obligations as a common carrier in the interests of maximizing profit. Keep in mind most of the physical property at one point was pretty much given to what are now these big RR’s by the US government with the understanding that they had to maintain service standards. They’re now abusing that gift granted by prior generations, and screwing over customers and employees to pump up their stock prices and profits in the near term.
What concerns me, and should concern everyone is the long term consequences of short sighted management decisions they have greatly harmed the workforce, equipment, and plant of the nation’s freight RR’s. There is no resilience left in the system as it currently stands. We can’t even handle mild growth in traffic to support an economic recovery and ease supply chain issues. Now imagine we had a real emergency where the country needed the ability to rapidly ramp up the ability to move massive amounts of material via rail. Not too long ago we could have done it, but not anymore. Not even close.
That should scare the hell out of everyone.
Your owner queered the Keystone pipeline deals so he could keep more of the transport market on the rails. Now he has a problem because he’s running too lean, and he wants to spread out the risk. I’m disinclined to care about his problems, and you should be too. There’s a million ways to express that the breaking point has been reached. Time to get creative.
As for not being able to move critical supplies, I’m over it. What we don’t get we’ll either find something else or do without. One benefit of the supply chain shortage is people are reevaluating their spending priorities. At some point we’ll either figure out how to do things differently, or return to the earth. Nature abhors a vacuum and whatnot.
Don’t mistake this for me being heartless though. I do have empathy with you. I’m in a position where I’d literally trade some money for more time off, just because I’m also in one of those jobs where you’re never truly “off duty”. I could’ve stayed in that lower income bracket where my worries ended when I punched out, but I chose my own prison. You’re in a business that’s been deemed “too big to fail”. So you’ve got that going for you, which most Americans don’t.
Coal Dragger
12-04-22, 16:04
RR Management when told they’re too big to fail:
“Hold my beer…”
Well isn’t this thread just great. I am currently applying for RR jobs because I’m at a professional crossroads and want a change. I’m done working to the Gov and I don’t want to go back overseas or to the oil/gas field. Coal and Pacific who do y’all work for? Got an interview with NS this week and BNSF is throwing decent hiring bonuses but it’s a 3 year commitment.
Coal Dragger
12-05-22, 00:46
BNSF.
I can’t tell you it’s a good idea at this time though. We’ll see what pans out of the contractual obligation that the RR’s are going to have to negotiate actual rest days for unassigned service. I don’t expect much because the details are left up to on property agreements and most likely arbitration since BNSF will try to push to have one assigned day off per 3 month period or something similarly ridiculous.
What locations are you looking at?
Pacific5th
12-05-22, 04:31
Well isn’t this thread just great. I am currently applying for RR jobs because I’m at a professional crossroads and want a change. I’m done working to the Gov and I don’t want to go back overseas or to the oil/gas field. Coal and Pacific who do y’all work for? Got an interview with NS this week and BNSF is throwing decent hiring bonuses but it’s a 3 year commitment.
I’m with Big Orange. Many of our students have turned down the bonus because of the strings attached.
Being tied to one terminal for three years when you have no seniority is not the best idea. As for our students they have hired it looks like somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3’s have quit in training or shortly afterwords. The current days off issue is horrible for newer people because they really can only take 2-3 days off a month depending on how you do it. They have no PLD or Vacation time to use outside of that. Also because of the issues the RR’s have caused we are working “on our rest” every day (remember 24/7, all week) and that’s a hard way to start a new career.
For those that have been questioning us actual Rails I’ll throw this out there. I’m on my third start. Worked Saturday at 0300, off at 1330. Went to the hotel and called out at 0045 right on my rest. I slept like shit cause I’m fighting a horrible chest cold right now. Got home at 1330 yesterday and was able to book 14 hours off. Called this morning for 0335. Slept a bit better but still feel like dog shit. Can’t take time off though cause I have to save my points for Christmas. I did get to see my kids though for Few hours a yesterday after I dealt with tire issues on my car and 4runner in the 20 degree weather for a hour cause I won’t have any time off next week to deal with that probably. I say I was luck to see my kids cause there are many times during the week I get home before they wake up and sleep all day and get called before they get home from school. Luckily it works for us but a lot of rails have marriage issues.
Straight Shooter
12-05-22, 04:58
Basically, the schedules you describe are better than most truckload drivers and equivalent to many LTL drivers, particularly newer drivers. I’m not unsympathetic. But railroads got in bed with the .gov over a century ago, as did then the worker unions. This is the price that is paid for demanding more back then. Super essential. Can’t shut down.
What is average pay for different level RR employees? Typically, market demands that a poor quality but needed job will have fewer applicants and demand higher pay to get what is needed.
Something isn’t working right here. My guess is that pay is higher than most have been willing to let go (walk away), so operations are not affected enough to actually consider improvements. Enough people walk away, things will change. Some trucking companies have figured this out.
Since the beginning of this discussion both in the news & here on the Forum...I have thought the same thing...this sounds like an OTR trucking job, and not even as bad as that. Im absolutely sympathetic to the problem yall face, and the goverment is gonna **** it up just like they do & have the trucking industry.
And I also agree with the unions being in bed with the government, especially the dems...and you get what you pay for with those fvckers.
Came off the road in '07 after working damn near 100 hours a week. To HELL with what the DOT rules were..you cant abide by those and make any sort of a decent check. NOW/TODAY could be different because pay & bennies have finally went up after being stagnant for decades, but when I started in the early nineties I didnt know anybody "runnin legal".
And it just came time after 13 years of that shit to say "Ive had enough". Got out of truck in MAY07 & Ill never set foot in another. Yall RR folks may have to do the same...life is too short to work like a damn dog for decades.
Diamondback
12-06-22, 00:02
RR Management when told they’re too big to fail:
“Hold my beer…”
*the ghost of PRR/PC waste of viable organs Stuart Saunders has entered the chat*
I spent 7 months deployed under water in a 300 foot shit tube. When actually pier-side, I spent every 3 days baby sitting a reactor for 24 hours.
There is nothing the civilian world could throw at me that would make me blink.
I could stand on my head in a bucket of shit for an extended period, if required.
This has been an interesting thread, one of my best friends is a contractor for RR line maintenance and doesn't have to go through these issues, but worked 10+ years with a RR before he moved over to maintenance. He boils it down to the 3 big players; Fed Gov, Railroad Companies, and Unions all looking out for their own interest and not working efficiently for the consumer or the railroad workers. The government made these little monopiles out of the current companies because they forfeited anyone trying to compete with laws that make it overly difficult for new competition and then the RR companies maintain just a basic standard with no push for innovation or doing things more efficiently because they don't have to, and the Unions are worried about the Union and not the working man who actually does the job in the field. He has mentioned that they will go out and renovate new track under federal loans because they need to spend the money, but will leave sketchy track that is in need of repair to show the Federal government that the grants aren't enough to fix the "real issues".
In my mind this is the problem with big government, it creates big businesses that want to suckle of the tit of bureaucracy, it reminds me of what Ronald Reagan said about facism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwFvaSZfXNk
Averageman
12-06-22, 12:36
What will eventually cause someone to look at this with a clear mind will unfortunatly be a major railroad disaster.
Nobody cares until there is blood on the walls.
What will eventually cause someone to look at this with a clear mind will unfortunatly be a major railroad disaster.
Nobody cares until there is blood on the walls.Or if there is a 5 day shut down.
We own a trucking business and I've said for thirty years now that until ALL trucks park for three to give days nothing will change for the better.
Let the pharmacy run out of drugs, the gas stations tanks dry up, the grocery store shelves get empty, then people will worry about it.
Coal Dragger
12-06-22, 14:39
I spent 7 months deployed under water in a 300 foot shit tube. When actually pier-side, I spent every 3 days baby sitting a reactor for 24 hours.
There is nothing the civilian world could throw at me that would make me blink.
I could stand on my head in a bucket of shit for an extended period, if required.
No one cares.
Hooray you had three hots and a cot in a metal tube under water.
I was in the infantry in a combat zone, I am unimpressed.
None of that has anything to do with issues on the RR. Adults in that industry are having conversations with people who have questions, you have nothing of value to add.
I appreciate the input from the RR guys. My original intent was to gather more intel on the situation so feel free to keep it coming.
In my personal observation of working union in the past I found that the company looks after the interest of the company, the union looks after the interest of the union, and exactly no damn body at the table gives a rat's ass about the guy in the field doing the job.
Straight Shooter
12-06-22, 18:37
Or if there is a 5 day shut down.
We own a trucking business and I've said for thirty years now that until ALL trucks park for three to give days nothing will change for the better.
Let the pharmacy run out of drugs, the gas stations tanks dry up, the grocery store shelves get empty, then people will worry about it.
Ive PRAYED for that for 25 years now.
Coal Dragger
12-06-22, 19:35
I appreciate the input from the RR guys. My original intent was to gather more intel on the situation so feel free to keep it coming.
In my personal observation of working union in the past I found that the company looks after the interest of the company, the union looks after the interest of the union, and exactly no damn body at the table gives a rat's ass about the guy in the field doing the job.
You’re not wrong.
I will be very curious to see how staffing will be affected by the new contract.
There’s a lot of really passed off people claiming they’re gone once the check shows up for back pay. If even 10% of them actually leave it will be really ugly.
Pacific5th
12-06-22, 20:48
I spent 7 months deployed under water in a 300 foot shit tube. When actually pier-side, I spent every 3 days baby sitting a reactor for 24 hours.
There is nothing the civilian world could throw at me that would make me blink.
I could stand on my head in a bucket of shit for an extended period, if required.
Cool dude, and I did the Iraq invasion and a second deployment a year later. I never thought I would say it but man I wish I had stayed in the Marines for 20 then got on with a major railroad. Did you want to measure dicks too? A few of us Rails are trying to answer people’s questions on here. We’re not trying to out Bill Badass anyone just laying out the facts of our job.
Coal Dragger
12-06-22, 21:50
I don’t regret getting out of the Marines. Law of averages tells me eventually my ticket on the get blown up, shot, or killed ride would get punched. Not to mention picking up more wear and tear on the ankles, knees, hips, and back.
So are the railroads closed shops, or can you opt out of joining the union?
Anyway, I appreciate what you guys do. Without your efforts, life would be a lot harder for everyone else. That goes for other professions as well, but I think we've had enough "my job is harder" dick-measuring so far in this thread.
I hope the working situation improves for y'all soon.
Averageman
12-07-22, 15:13
Society certainly has a way of making jobs so much lesss fun and a lot more of a drag.
Railroad, Cop, EMS, Doctor, it's like a group gets together and ask's "How can we F' up this job and squeeze all of the joy out of it?"
Is it that everything we do in this society requires layer upon layer of bureaucracy until all of the joy is stomped out of it?
Coal Dragger
12-07-22, 16:15
So are the railroads closed shops, or can you opt out of joining the union?
Anyway, I appreciate what you guys do. Without your efforts, life would be a lot harder for everyone else. That goes for other professions as well, but I think we've had enough "my job is harder" dick-measuring so far in this thread.
I hope the working situation improves for y'all soon.
All the big Class 1’s are closed shops. We can opt out of paying dues for political organizing though.
Some people only have a talent for creating paperwork, thus they get themselves in a position to create paperwork for others to complete, so the first people can justify their job by having paperwork to file.
Others have a talent for sucking the joy out of everything, or don't like to see people happy in their work.
These types work in offices and somehow control the people with skills and talent that work out in the field making things happen.
Diamondback
12-07-22, 18:01
Some people only have a talent for creating paperwork, thus they get themselves in a position to create paperwork for others to complete, so the first people can justify their job by having paperwork to file.
Others have a talent for sucking the joy out of everything, or don't like to see people happy in their work.
These types work in offices and somehow control the people with skills and talent that work out in the field making things happen.
Look up Jerry Pournelle's "Iron Law of Bureaucracy" sometime--he saw it firsthand in IIRC the Challenger investigation.
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