View Full Version : Rifle duty ammo
So… my dept is looking for quotes on a new rifle duty round. I’m the past we use Speer gold dot 55gr and a fed tactical 55gr. We want to switch to a 62gr round. Most guys carry Sbr’s but there are some 16” guns I think 62gr is a good middle weight with the guns being 1x7,1x8 and some 1x9. We want to go to one round to simplify everything for the “lowest” user. While doing some research the past couple days. My brain is fried with the whole this is the best round for this or this is best for that. Now obviously we need a round for pretty much everything. Walls. Cars. Other barriers. People While cost isn’t that big of a deal. If we get a round that’s suitable. We don’t want the most expensive either. Also 62gr is easier to find for general range ammo/. Get on paper and fine tune with duty ammo Any help???
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Sounds like 62 gr Gold Dot is the answer.
Gold Dot or Fusion MSR (not regular Fusion) would likely best suit your needs. I don’t think there’s anything cheaper that is genuinely suitable for LE, and its among the best, coincidentally.
Gold Dot or Fusion MSR (not regular Fusion) would likely best suit your needs. I don’t think there’s anything cheaper that is genuinely suitable for LE, and its among the best, coincidentally.
Is there any posted accuracy on these rounds
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Pretty sure fusion and gold dot are the exact same bullet, gold dot has a coating or lubricant that fusion does not
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Is there any posted accuracy on these rounds
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There is. https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Federal-62-Grain-Fusion-vs-Federal-62-Grain-Fusion-MSR-vs-Speer-LE-62-Grain-Gold-Dot/16-687846/ The link is to the other site. The thread he has here has lost its pictures.
Pretty sure fusion and gold dot are the exact same bullet, gold dot has a coating or lubricant that fusion does not
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Gold Dot has nickel-plated cases; neither Fusion nor Fusion MSR have that. I’m not convinced it matters.
Regular Fusion does not have the case sealant that Gold Dot and Fusion MSR have.
gunnerblue
12-16-22, 11:16
Do a search for DocGKR's "Recommended List" which is still relevant. Short answer, though, is 62 grain Gold Dot.
Gold Dot has nickel-plated cases; neither Fusion nor Fusion MSR have that. I’m not convinced it matters.
Regular Fusion does not have the case sealant that Gold Dot and Fusion MSR have.
I mainly run Gold Dot in all my guns, but I also have quite a bit of Federal Fusion. I always thought the regular Fusion was better than MSR, but I guess I've never really looked into it. Is the main diff between Fusion and Fusion MSR, just the case sealant?
I mainly run Gold Dot in all my guns, but I also have quite a bit of Federal Fusion. I always thought the regular Fusion was better than MSR, but I guess I've never really looked into it. Is the main diff between Fusion and Fusion MSR, just the case sealant?
You’ll see slightly more velocity from MSR, and it has all of the reliability-related features you would expect in duty ammo, whereas the regular Fusion is more directed at hunters with bolt guns.
You’ll see slightly more velocity from MSR, and it has all of the reliability-related features you would expect in duty ammo, whereas the regular Fusion is more directed at hunters with bolt guns.
Good to know thanks. It's mainly a backup for me, but i'll stick to MSR if i buy any going forward.
The vaunted "FBI load", Federal 5.56x45mm XM556FBIT3M 62 gr Tactical Bonded. It's a JSP loaded to 5.56 NATO pressure and one of the top-rated AR rounds out there.
I agree with ABNAK.
And the Federal LE223T3 load is a consistently superb performer in FBI tests along with that FBI XM556FBIT3 load in 5.56.
Terminal effects are great but precision tends to be so-so, say around 1.5 to 1.75 moa. Still, this is fine for distances where the average shot is sub 100 yards. The 223 load has been noticeably more precise than the 5.56 in any rifle I’ve tried them in.
I like that the LE223T3 uses nickel cases so the difference between duty and practice ammo is obvious.
In my experience the Federal XM556FBIT3 had less than exceptional accuracy-easily 2 MOA+, was difficult to find and expensive when you could.
The Speer GD loads (55, 64/62, 75) proved more accurate, reasonably priced and available. Icing on the cake was POI at 100 yds was within an inch or two of 77 gr. 5.56 (BH and IMI) from my frequently used Carbines. This with the 75 gr. GD.
So… my dept is looking for quotes on a new rifle duty round. I’m the past we use Speer gold dot 55gr and a fed tactical 55gr. We want to switch to a 62gr round. Most guys carry Sbr’s but there are some 16” guns I think 62gr is a good middle weight with the guns being 1x7,1x8 and some 1x9. We want to go to one round to simplify everything for the “lowest” user. While doing some research the past couple days. My brain is fried with the whole this is the best round for this or this is best for that. Now obviously we need a round for pretty much everything. Walls. Cars. Other barriers. People While cost isn’t that big of a deal. If we get a round that’s suitable. We don’t want the most expensive either. Also 62gr is easier to find for general range ammo/. Get on paper and fine tune with duty ammo Any help???
Contact LE reps for the manufacturers of interest. Give them your needs, see what test data packages, sample ammo, or demo shoots are available. Don't overcomplicate it. Differences between GTG rounds can be an exercise in hair splitting. Some of your decision should factor ongoing availability of the load and your paired training rounds. The differences between your twists and barrel length aren't as big a variable as you might believe either - depending. Sounds like you want a barrier blind, bonded, or monolithic load.
There is nothing wrong with the 62 GDSP (24445SP) which was mentioned above. I've shot a lot of it, and it's a match-ish (often ~1MOA) load. It is a little slow though (16" ~2650) and may be quirky to pair with a training load. It may be a marginal choice for SBR.
I use the BHA 5.56 62TSX, fast (16" ~2900) and GTG across barrel lengths and twists. Matches well with a variety of stuff for training - esp mil loads.
Others may be fine.
Useful question: Ask your manufacturer if they have a spec that advertised training/duty pairings are held to, and what it is if not proprietary. That can be handy. Allowable lot-to-lot variation of your chosen load.
I forgot to mention. Contact the FBI Firearms Training Unit at Quantico and ask them for their latest DVD of testing data.
Beyond just the protocol test results, it offers a good amount of interesting reading.
You’ll need agency letterhead, signed by a command officer, that states it will be used solely within your agency and not shared anywhere else.
If you need the address, shoot me a PM. I can reply to it or email the address to you.
Cheers!
BufordTJustice
12-18-22, 11:25
I agree with ABNAK.
And the Federal LE223T3 load is a consistently superb performer in FBI tests along with that FBI XM556FBIT3 load in 5.56.
Terminal effects are great but precision tends to be so-so, say around 1.5 to 1.75 moa. Still, this is fine for distances where the average shot is sub 100 yards. The 223 load has been noticeably more precise than the 5.56 in any rifle I’ve tried them in.
I like that the LE223T3 uses nickel cases so the difference between duty and practice ammo is obvious.
My old agency has some issues with this expanding effectively out of 16" barrels, through auto glass. Quite different from the FBI load (5.56 pressure).
I'm aware of one OIS where the subject received over a dozen rds through laminate auto glass and most of the wound channels were fairly punctuate IIRC. The threat took a long time to stop.... threatening.
It's anecdotal AND I wouldn't write off the LE223T3 round completely. But i would recommend against it for anything under 16".
FBI load, Hornady TAP 55gr GMX 5.56, BH 50gr TSX 5.56 would be tops for shorties and longer barrels.
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In my experience the Federal XM556FBIT3 had less than exceptional accuracy-easily 2 MOA+ Yes, was difficult to find Yes and expensive when you could and Yes.
The Speer GD loads (55, 64/62, 75) proved more accurate, reasonably priced and available. Icing on the cake was POI at 100 yds was within an inch or two of 77 gr. 5.56 (BH and IMI) from my frequently used Carbines. This with the 75 gr. GD.
The bullet shape (being a soft-point) doesn't lend itself to uber accurate shooting to be sure; it's a "combat load". The soft-point itself is not a streamlined one either; it's rather wide. There are considerably more accurate 62gr loads out there.
Yeah, especially now it's quite hard to find. I've had mine for several years, back when it wasn't as uncommon.
I'll agree it wasn't cheap either, but I can't recall what I paid for it.
BufordTJustice
12-18-22, 22:18
The bullet shape (being a soft-point) doesn't lend itself to uber accurate shooting to be sure; it's a "combat load". The soft-point itself is not a streamlined one either; it's rather wide. There are considerably more accurate 62gr loads out there.
Yeah, especially now it's quite hard to find. I've had mine for several years, back when it wasn't as uncommon.
I'll agree it wasn't cheap either, but I can't recall what I paid for it.
As much of a fan as i remain of XM556FBIT3, all the exposed lead tips on my rounds look pretty rough. Inconsistent lead swaged at the tip, inconsistent overall tip profile, etc. However, this aligns with all the other TBBC rounds I've seen in .30 cal, etc.
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As much of a fan as i remain of XM556FBIT3, all the exposed lead tips on my rounds look pretty rough. Inconsistent lead swaged at the tip, inconsistent overall tip profile, etc. However, this aligns with all the other TBBC rounds I've seen in .30 cal, etc.
Yes, and I have mine from two different vendors, so it wasn't a bad or sloppy batch. On a few it seems like the lead is overflowing the HP! That said, maybe that's why it is rated as such a good round. It's not neatly trimmed and compact like the Speer Gold Dot SP's (I have some 64gr ones). I may be wrong in this assumption but perhaps that big-ass HP opening and the generous application of lead filler in it no doubt contributes to better and more consistent expansion (?). It doesn't, however, help in the accuracy department at all.
BufordTJustice
12-19-22, 22:41
Yes, and I have mine from two different vendors, so it wasn't a bad or sloppy batch. On a few it seems like the lead is overflowing the HP! That said, maybe that's why it is rated as such a good round. It's not neatly trimmed and compact like the Speer Gold Dot SP's (I have some 64gr ones). I may be wrong in this assumption but perhaps that big-ass HP opening and the generous application of lead filler in it no doubt contributes to better and more consistent expansion (?). It doesn't, however, help in the accuracy department at all.
The exposed, blunt tip and truncated ogive profile definitely aid terminal performance. The Nosler Bonded Soft Base (BSB) in the Winchester Ranger RA556B used the uber-flat Nosler profile.
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