View Full Version : German military to finally get new service rifle
The whole Ukraine thing might have provided a little impetus.
"The ‘System Sturmgewehr Bundeswehr’ or System Assault Rifle Bundeswehr will reportedly be made up of two variants of the HK416 – the G95A1, likely to have a 16.5 inch barrel, and the G95KA1 carbine variant which will have a 14 inch barrel. As with all rifles in the HK416 family the rifles use a short-stroke gas piston system and a rotating bolt head locking mechanism.
The G95 rifles will replace the Bundeswehr’s G36 rifles. The HK416A7 variant, with a 14.5 inch barrel, is already in use with Germany’s Special Forces Command – the KSK. Externally, it is believed that the G95A1 will have different furniture with a stock with an adjustable cheek rise and a pistol grip angle similar to that of the G36 in line with the requirements of the German Army’s original tender.
An initial funding request worth 25 million Euros has been green-lit by the Bundestag with a minimum order for 13,929 G95A1s and 3,104 G95KA1s. Further details on when the first guns may be delivered are not yet available. Last year it was stated that the contract for the System Sturmgewehr Bundeswehr would call for delivery of 20,000 rifles per year for five years."
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/12/14/german-army-one-step-closer-procuring-hk416a8/
Interesting they chose to go with a Keymod handguard. I thought Keymod was kindof on it's way out. Personally, i think Keymod is an easier system to use than Mlok, but it seems MLOK has has taken over.
Germany went with the HK?
A truly shocking development.
SomeOtherGuy
12-16-22, 14:51
Interesting they chose to go with a Keymod handguard. I thought Keymod was kindof on it's way out. Personally, i think Keymod is an easier system to use than Mlok, but it seems MLOK has has taken over.
Is it actually Keymod though? HK had an earlier system that resembled Keymod but wasn't:
https://soldiersystems.net/2014/01/04/hk-goes-keymod/
Looking at the photo in the TFB article it appears to be oriented like real Keymod, but I couldn't find any detail confirming it really was.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-16-22, 15:24
I mean, its obviously the best or among the best rifles available...and it's homegrown. I probably would stick with pic rails like the rest of Europe has with their 416s but whatever.
militarymoron
12-16-22, 17:39
Is it actually Keymod though?
I don't think it's Keymod compatible.
Defaultmp3
12-16-22, 17:56
Interesting they chose to go with a Keymod handguard. I thought Keymod was kindof on it's way out. Personally, i think Keymod is an easier system to use than Mlok, but it seems MLOK has has taken over.It's not KeyMod, it's HKey. There are two versions of HKey, one with the same orientation as KeyMod (H&K GmbH), and one with the reverse orientation (H&K USA, also known as Modular Rail System, and now out of fashion and replaced by M-LOK). Also check out KeySlot by AI, which predated KeyMod. KeyMod is not compatible with any of the systems listed.
M-LOK is going to be a little bit less prevalent in the EU due to ITAR considerations, as the T-nut used is ITAR restricted (or at least was at the time the tender was written, not sure if it still is). ITAR was apparently specifically brought up in the German tender, and the cited reason for why SIG declined to participate in this competition. ITAR makes exporting a hassle, as now a foreign company is beholden to American bureaucratic considerations, and possibly even its use on foreign soil by the state in question. Of course, there is also the protectionist aspect of it all.
See: https://www.learnexportcompliance.com/13900-2/
Germany went with the HK?
A truly shocking development.
They went from a HK (G36) to a HK (416 variant) and honestly, military's that depend upon foreign arms are vulnerable. I really thought they took the G36 completely out of service already, seems like it was even more problematic than the FN SCAR.
After the Haenel disaster it's not as surprising.
HK lodged a protest over the award to Haenel, citing patent infringements.
Winning bid, from Haenel, was cancelled and their contract revoked due to patent infringement allegations.
OK, so nothing new or problems with the Haenel submission, just upset that it was a progression of the 416 design.
hotbiggun42
12-16-22, 22:54
I like the color
I like the color
HK really needs to bring back "baby poop" yellow.
https://i.imgur.com/DdMh1rS.jpg
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-17-22, 10:25
Apparently it was pretty bad. HK made a video for court where the parts were straight drop-in many cases. On the other hand, it does appear that the Haenel won the actual trials. It makes sense, Haenel was really Caracal which had hired away Robert Hirt and the HK 416 team away from SIG (where they had designed Sig's 516 and other designs that have evolved into the Spear). I watched an interview with an ex Sig engineer where he was desperate not to mention Hirt's name, which made me suspicious everyone is in lawsuit mode.
BoringGuy45
12-17-22, 11:17
Apparently it was pretty bad. HK made a video for court where the parts were straight drop-in many cases. On the other hand, it does appear that the Haenel won the actual trials. It makes sense, Haenel was really Caracal which had hired away Robert Hirt and the HK 416 team away from SIG (where they had designed Sig's 516 and other designs that have evolved into the Spear). I watched an interview with an ex Sig engineer where he was desperate not to mention Hirt's name, which made me suspicious everyone is in lawsuit mode.
One thing I wish HK would do with the 416 that Haenel did with their rifle was the tool less removal of the handguard. I wish there was a decent quality handguard for the 416 that didn’t require a wrench to field strip.
It's not KeyMod, it's HKey. There are two versions of HKey, one with the same orientation as KeyMod (H&K GmbH), and one with the reverse orientation (H&K USA, also known as Modular Rail System, and now out of fashion and replaced by M-LOK). Also check out KeySlot by AI, which predated KeyMod. KeyMod is not compatible with any of the systems listed.
M-LOK is going to be a little bit less prevalent in the EU due to ITAR considerations, as the T-nut used is ITAR restricted (or at least was at the time the tender was written, not sure if it still is). ITAR was apparently specifically brought up in the German tender, and the cited reason for why SIG declined to participate in this competition. ITAR makes exporting a hassle, as now a foreign company is beholden to American bureaucratic considerations, and possibly even its use on foreign soil by the state in question. Of course, there is also the protectionist aspect of it all.
See: https://www.learnexportcompliance.com/13900-2/
Good info, thx.
Apparently it was pretty bad. HK made a video for court where the parts were straight drop-in many cases. On the other hand, it does appear that the Haenel won the actual trials. It makes sense, Haenel was really Caracal which had hired away Robert Hirt and the HK 416 team away from SIG (where they had designed Sig's 516 and other designs that have evolved into the Spear). I watched an interview with an ex Sig engineer where he was desperate not to mention Hirt's name, which made me suspicious everyone is in lawsuit mode.
We also need to remember Germany is not the US, they practice an odd form of protectionism and HK is "sorta" state owned.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-18-22, 00:51
We also need to remember Germany is not the US, they practice an odd form of protectionism and HK is "sorta" state owned.
True, but HK was in the state s-list for a while. That’s probably the real reason why Hanel won the contract before the no-compromise lawyers were deployed. I think Russia has made most of those concerns seem petty.
True, but HK was in the state s-list for a while. That’s probably the real reason why Hanel won the contract before the no-compromise lawyers were deployed. I think Russia has made most of those concerns seem petty.
I think Haenel won because the G36 turned out to be a massive POS and the Germans realized they needed to rearm their military again. Personally I wanted to see the Rheinmetall Steyr RS556 win the day. That was a seriously interesting design, of course at the end of the day the 416 is the practical choice for more reasons than I can begin to state.
Heck, if this new rifle is problematic they could always go back to the G3. Very un-ergonomic by today's standards but it always seemed to be a reasonably reliable and durable weapon. To appease the 20-something crowd they could put a cell phone pouch on the buttstock :D
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-18-22, 18:03
I would have just picked the 416 out of the gate. Just because it is slowly becoming the de facto euro rifle. Plus it’s obviously a fine design and is made right there in Germany . The Haenel was designed by members of the same team that designed the 416 but ultimately the improvements were at best incremental and at worst gimmicks. But again, it does appear the Hanel won on performance (according to the Bundeswehr).
I think Haenel won because the G36 turned out to be a massive POS and the Germans realized they needed to rearm their military again. Personally I wanted to see the Rheinmetall Steyr RS556 win the day. That was a seriously interesting design, of course at the end of the day the 416 is the practical choice for more reasons than I can begin to state.
I would have just picked the 416 out of the gate. Just because it is slowly becoming the de facto euro rifle. Plus it’s obviously a fine design and is made right there in Germany . The Haenel was designed by members of the same team that designed the 416 but ultimately the improvements were at best incremental and at worst gimmicks. But again, it does appear the Hanel won on performance (according to the Bundeswehr).
The choice wasn't there.
Originally the G3 was going to be replaced by the G11. Lots of things went wrong. For starters the caseless ammo / no ejection port design proved to be a closed oven that created all manner of problems with the weapon. They the wall came down and suddenly West Germany was given custody of East Germany and all of the costs of finally repairing everything that had been destroyed during the war.
The 1990s were an interesting time as HK was actually sold to British Aerospace's Royal Ordnance division in England, partly to financially maintain the company and also so HK could attempt to fix the problematic SA80 rifle which resulted in the SA80A2. And all the while they were still trying to find a 5.56 Nato replacement for the now 30 year old G3 rifle. HK then began to R&D what would become the G36/XM8 rifle and the final prototype was completed in 1995.
During this same time Vickers was working with HK towards what would become the 416 but with the view that it would be purchased by US special operations as a replacement for the MP5 and the M4 with the result being a compact CQB weapon with better ballistics than the MP5. At this time nobody was viewing the 416 design as a standard issue carbine so even if it was developed ahead of the G36, it still would not have been considered as a replacement for the G3, even though the 416 does exist now in a platform more or less equal to the M4.
And it is that continued evolution of the 416 that led Germany to see it as a viable replacement for the G36. It's almost a shame that HK went in the direction of the SMG I & II / UMP and the Project 50 / G36 because neither of them lived up to their promised potential. A refined MP5/45 would have been superior to the UMP and the G36 was a failure in all it's forms. But HK loves to innovate so they were more interested in trying to make their poly frame side folders viable. It simply just didn't work.
Sometimes HK goes outside the box and wins hard, like with the MP5 (which is a scaled down G3), the P7 (possibly the greatest 9mm handgun ever) and the USP (the perfect blending of Walther and Browning features). But sometimes they just end up with the P9 (a roller locked handgun that really didn't do anything special) or the G41 (the HK 5.56 rifle that finally took AR mags but nobody cared). Or they end up with something like the VP70 which was a brilliant PDW in it's select fire version but a pretty awful semi auto only handgun or the PSG1 which in the late 80s was a $8,000 semi auto sniper rifle based on the G3 but could barely maintain 1MOA regardless of the side plates welded on it and a $1,000 Remington 700 w/ scope could outshoot it all day long.
It'll be interesting to see if Germany takes a cue from the US and looks to move on from 5.56mm.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-19-22, 17:59
This selection was always about replacing the G36. By the time this selection came around the 416 was well-developed, and had already been selected by Norway and France for general use and by dozens if not hundred of special forces units and of course the USMC. The 416 or the 433 were always thought to be the front runners. Sig and Rheinmetall both withdrew their designs before the downselect. By the end everyone thought it was just going to be HK and I think HK thought the same thing. When Haenel won, HK remembered that in a world of compromise some men hire lawyers. The lawyers found a bunch of patent violations (mostly surrounding OTB features) and HK got the contract thrown out.
Hilariously, HK also got an assist from the German Left party in Thuringia which was upset with Haenel because they are based in the UAE--and the German Left Party was pissed because the UAE had just made a peace deal with Israel (since the GLP hates Israel and supports Hamas and Hezbollah, that's a no-no). And I thought American weapon procurement was complicated!
This selection was always about replacing the G36. By the time this selection came around the 416 was well-developed, and had already been selected by Norway and France for general use and by dozens if not hundred of special forces units and of course the USMC. The 416 or the 433 were always thought to be the front runners. Sig and Rheinmetall both withdrew their designs before the downselect. By the end everyone thought it was just going to be HK and I think HK thought the same thing. When Haenel won, HK remembered that in a world of compromise some men hire lawyers. The lawyers found a bunch of patent violations (mostly surrounding OTB features) and HK got the contract thrown out.
I thought you meant as a replacement for the G3 instead of the G36, but now I see you probably meant instead of selecting the Haenel.
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