View Full Version : Basic land navigation a challenge for the younger crowd?
A map? Isn't that a paper thingy with weird marks all over it? :D
"About seven months after the Army reintroduced land navigation to its Basic Leader Course, or BLC, half of the soldiers in that pilot program have failed the training.
BLC is a 22-day school for the Army's junior leaders to rise to the rank of sergeant. Land navigation was brought back after a roughly four-year hiatus. The school is supposed to teach young noncommissioned officers about the service's policies, including legal authorities, processing paperwork for awards, and sexual assault and prevention efforts.
Service leaders have been aiming to add fieldcraft and combat tactics to the training, part of a larger effort to get non-combat arms troops up to snuff on basic soldiering skills. At the center of that push is land navigation, which tasks soldiers with plotting points on a map with a protractor and finding spots in the woods using a compass during both day and night. No GPS, which has become ubiquitous in combat with an approximation on just about every smartphone, is allowed.
But of the 914 soldiers who have been through the training, half have failed that portion of BLC, according to Command Sgt. Maj. Daniel Hendrex, the top enlisted leader for the Army's Training and Doctrine Command, or TRADOC.
As of now, passing isn't required to graduate. But the high failure rate is a troubling sign as the service gears up for conventional warfare, with future conflicts expected to see the wide use of cyber weapons, which can knock out the GPS tools soldiers relied on during the Global War on Terror era."
https://www.yahoo.com/news/soldiers-forgotten-map-compass-173137773.html
Diamondback
12-17-22, 14:18
Hell, you should see how many idiots can't merely find their way around their own towns without somebody taking them by the hand and leading them... not even Steyr's "Fat Girl Directions" work with them, and they can't understand the simple "each road number is 1/10 mile, if you put The Mountain behind your right shoulder you're facing north, south is behind you, east to your right and west your left."
"But dat means TINKING! TINKINGMAKEZMUHBRAINHURT! NOTINKNOTINKNOTINK!" Seriously, these people make The Hulk look like a frickin' Quantum Physics major, and I don't mean "Smart Hulk" from Endgame...
I always made sure growing up my kids knew which direction they are facing/traveling at any given moment. I’ll still tell them “I’m on the south side of the parking lot” and they will easily find me.
Being USAF, we didn't learn any of that navigation stuff (as long as you could find your way back to the barracks or chow hall you were good to go), but I can see why land nav would be essential in a GPS-denied environment.
That isnt new. From talking with guys and buddies that were cadre at various military schools, non combat jobs personnel almost always have issues with basic infantry/combat skills. Not always obviously. But land nav eats a lot of the guys who dont use it regularly.
I guess I am surprised that it went away. That's an essential skill, especially for field-oriented MOSs.
That isnt new. From talking with guys and buddies that were cadre at various military schools, non combat jobs personnel almost always have issues with basic infantry/combat skills. Not always obviously. But land nav eats a lot of the guys who dont use it regularly.
Yup.
It makes me sad how rusty I’ve gotten.
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Yup.
It makes me sad how rusty I’ve gotten.
Definitely a perishable skill.....
I'm also surprised that it went away.
Non combat MOS's always struggled with such tasks and the NCO schools are the only places they encounter it. It something more to be endured than actually learned, I guess.
In my day the school was called PLDC (pull dick) and the land navigation was a big part of it, a major challenge for many and pretty much the crucible that made or broke you. The schools emphasis wasn't centered on it, but I think it presented the major go/no go challenge. That it's just no long taught is a headscratcher that I probably should have have seen coming, as cynical as I can be.
I don't have a natural sense of direction but fortunately I learned alot about map and compass orienteering in my youth, while with CAP. So I did fairly well whenever the army put land nav on the schedule and I breezed thru the PLDC course. I forget what the standards were, but most passed. And I think there was a block of time set aside later for mulligans, so it wasn't preventing any but the hopeless from graduation.
Gps then was cumbersome and dodgey (mid-late 90s).
Sadly my trusty lensatic from those days locked up on me..... What a kick in the sack that was, like having your boyhood dog die.
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Most of the guys that I practice SARS with are painfully dependent upon phones, GPS, and eye in the sky drones. Actual paper map, compass, and distance walked? Forget it!! Lambs lost in the wild...
I'm far from a Luddite, but it is obvious when you become dependent upon technology you are useless without it.
Part of the problem is methods of instruction and generational impact. Many are raised tech-oriented and inside. Leverage tech combined with old school. Take a team to the field and actually hike out terrain, practice feature ID, learn impact of topo and scale, count pace, learn experientially, teach as you go. Have some folks on devices, some on printed map/compass, have them switch. Easier in some places and teams than others, but better learning.
Most of the guys that I practice SARS with are painfully dependent upon phones, GPS, and eye in the sky drones. Actual paper map, compass, and distance walked? Forget it!! Lambs lost in the wild...
Amen.
Part of the problem is methods of instruction and generational impact. Many are raised tech-oriented and inside. Leverage tech combined with old school. Take a team to the field and actually hike out terrain, practice feature ID, learn impact of topo and scale, count pace, learn experientially, teach as you go. Have some folks on devices, some on printed map/compass, have them switch. Easier in some places and teams than others, but better learning.
I would have assumed that is the way they were already doing it, but thinking about it now I'm probably wrong.
Every time something in the military fails it's usually a case of 50/50 responsibility between the younger crowd who has never tried something and really poor training methods.
Sheesh, 50% failure rate of ostensible "leaders" at a basic F'ing skill. Guess what, GPS ain't bulletproof. Hell I remember having to tackle land nav problems without a compass, using a map and identifying terrain features to judge direction. Why, cause shit breaks and people lose shit. You still gotta navigate.
"Whoa, time out, you can't shoot us. We're lost."
Sheesh, 50% failure rate of ostensible "leaders" at a basic F'ing skill. Guess what, GPS ain't bulletproof. Hell I remember having to tackle land nav problems without a compass, using a map and identifying terrain features to judge direction. Why, cause shit breaks and people lose shit. You still gotta navigate.
"Whoa, time out, you can't shoot us. We're lost."
Believe it or not, the Army isn’t about getting shot nor shooting at someone for most people.
Lots of people lose perspective on the support side of this job. It’s a constant struggle.
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Need a new parlor trick? If you have an analog watch (esp GMT), next time you're out with your group nav by it. Be obvious about looking at your watch, and evasive about how you're doing it. Watch them look for a hidden compass or electronic feature.
Analogs are weird enough already.
Averageman
12-17-22, 19:33
Part of the problem is methods of instruction and generational impact. Many are raised tech-oriented and inside. Leverage tech combined with old school. Take a team to the field and actually hike out terrain, practice feature ID, learn impact of topo and scale, count pace, learn experientially, teach as you go. Have some folks on devices, some on printed map/compass, have them switch. Easier in some places and teams than others, but better learning.
Amen.
This, it's the only way to do it.
Useful: NOLS Wilderness Navigation
https://store.nols.edu/products/nols-wilderness-navigation-3rd-edition
That isnt new. From talking with guys and buddies that were cadre at various military schools, non combat jobs personnel almost always have issues with basic infantry/combat skills. Not always obviously. But land nav eats a lot of the guys who dont use it regularly.
I think this is a major part of it. BLC is a mix of every MOS with the majority of them being junior E4s. Land Nav was always a killer at schools I went to that included non-combat arms; Ranger School being a standout with just the sheer number of failures at land nav in RAP week.
But to be fair, land nav was also the killer at EIB when I got mine.
Averageman
12-17-22, 20:00
When I went to BLC, it was called PLDC. All MOS's had to attend it was a prerequisite for promotion to E-5.
We had to find painted coffee can lids at the base of trees, write the number on the can lid on your car and hit the next grid. All of that went to hell when it snowed that night.
We did it anyway.
PLDC washed out plenty of dudes for land nav. I myself had the task of coaching some of the lesser skilled ones to try and convince them to trust the compass and the math, but it didn't work. And that was before GPS was a common commercial item. Some people have the natural ability to dead reckon accurately like it's second nature, and others can't nav, even with all the tools.
You don’t even need BLC to pin E5 now.
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I liked land nav. It was like a game and math problem all in one. I didn't find it hard. But I also grew up with it at some level with scouts and civil air patrol.
Averageman
12-18-22, 07:58
PLDC washed out plenty of dudes for land nav. I myself had the task of coaching some of the lesser skilled ones to try and convince them to trust the compass and the math, but it didn't work. And that was before GPS was a common commercial item. Some people have the natural ability to dead reckon accurately like it's second nature, and others can't nav, even with all the tools.
I think the difficulty for some people is relating terrain to the topigraphical features on the Map.
I got very lucky as Germany was my first duty station and the locations of tree lines hasn't changed in 50 years in Germany. This made learning to read a map much easier.
So if I was standing on a road that entered a forrest 500 meters ahead and there was a hill to my right, it doesn't take long to find your location on a map.
I think it's easier to do all of the training outside.
Talked to my brother in law yesterday and asked him about PLDC or whatever it's called now. He said they did land nav in 2017. My bother in law is a satellite comms guy so land nav was not something he did, ever. But he is a smart dude who has no problem asking for help. He's also good friends with a CAG dude, so he got trained up before going.
Averageman
12-18-22, 12:02
Talked to my brother in law yesterday and asked him about PLDC or whatever it's called now. He said they did land nav in 2017. My bother in law is a satellite comms guy so land nav was not something he did, ever. But he is a smart dude who has no problem asking for help. He's also good friends with a CAG dude, so he got trained up before going.
See, that's the thing.
Common sense is all it takes. I had a giant of a man (Like 6' 7') who was a cook who follow me through the Land Nav Qual for PLDC. (See my previous post as to why)
I was a hot shot E-4 with an attitude. I think we placed third overall, but I admit to cutting the journey in two by crossing a deep (chest) creek.
My Homeboy the pancake flipper was happy, I was happy.
In the end that guy learned more from me in fourty minutes than four hours in the classroom.
See, that's the thing.
Common sense is all it takes. I had a giant of a man (Like 6' 7') who was a cook who follow me through the Land Nav Qual for PLDC. (See my previous post as to why)
I was a hot shot E-4 with an attitude. I think we placed third overall, but I admit to cutting the journey in two by crossing a deep (chest) creek.
My Homeboy the pancake flipper was happy, I was happy.
In the end that guy learned more from me in fourty minutes than four hours in the classroom.
Common sense and not overthinking really are key, especially in schools where land nav is frequently used. If you can terrain associate, a lot of lanes look like animal trails because they are used so often. In most cases you aren't breaking bush, and they'll never send you into a draw on purpose. If you end up in a draw, you're making a mistake.
The_War_Wagon
12-18-22, 18:45
Geez, & I got the orienteering award in '84 in JROTC as map & compass champ of my battalion. Nice to know I could still make E5 if necessary!
I'm a currently serving Platoon Sergeant in a Heavy Weapons Company. I took over leadership of my current platoon this time last year, and previously had a platoon in another battalion for about three years. From day one, in both companies, I've asked for the Land Nav Range to be reserved for training due to my observation that the application of such skills have been lacking. Every time it's been shot down because of competing priorities. I've also been told time and time again, that because we have GPS, there is little to no enthusiasm from the command structure for it. My response is "Batteries die and we know for fact GPS can be spoofed by our enemies." I've had to make do with remedial map reading training, how to use a compass/protractor, and knowing their pace count.
Averageman
12-18-22, 22:28
I'm a currently serving Platoon Sergeant in a Heavy Weapons Company. I took over leadership of my current platoon this time last year, and previously had a platoon in another battalion for about three years. From day one, in both companies, I've asked for the Land Nav Range to be reserved for training due to my observation that the application of such skills have been lacking. Every time it's been shot down because of competing priorities. I've also been told time and time again, that because we have GPS, there is little to no enthusiasm from the command structure for it. My response is "Batteries die and we know for fact GPS can be spoofed by our enemies." I've had to make do with remedial map reading training, how to use a compass/protractor, and knowing their pace count.
Ahhhh Murphy.
Been there done that, keep up the good work !
Has anyone inventoried the S-2 for Maps lately?
Ahhhh Murphy.
Been there done that, keep up the good work !
Has anyone inventoried the S-2 for Maps lately?
We have maps of all the training areas we typically use, so getting maps isn't an issue. It's kind of moot at this point as I've been kicked off the upcoming deployment. I may get a few guys coming from basic, and our Rear D guys, but our rear det are all set to ETS over the next few months, so they"re in "zero f&@ks" mode.
I never had difficulty in doing land nav, except the one time in the height of summer of SoCal just a few months after having heart surgery. Thought I was going to die after climbing multiple steep hills. Using terrain association was the fastest method.
Just some data points, it seems like this can vary by unit.
In my son's prior unit (173rd airborne) all officers in NCOs were expected to earn their EIB (Expert Infantryman Badge). Which has land nav as a required element.
And the rest of the soldiers were pushed to earn it and all had to attempt it. Was not unusual to see 75% or higher of any given platoon or company having earned the EIB.
So land nav was something they were taught and were expected to be proficient at as a light infantry unit.
He's now in a combined arms/heavy unit and there is much less emphasis.
They don't seem to put as much time on it and only soldiers who have a good chance of earning attempt EIB
Being a Mech unit maybe it makes sense as their maneuver would be vehicle based.
All IN LTs are taught land nav and have to demonstrate proficiency to graduate IBOLC. And it's one of the first screening challenges in Ranger School (usually day 3 of RAP), which all infantry LTs have to at least attempt.
Averageman
12-26-22, 08:22
Just some data points, it seems like this can vary by unit.
In my son's prior unit (173rd airborne) all officers in NCOs were expected to earn their EIB (Expert Infantryman Badge). Which has land nav as a required element.
And the rest of the soldiers were pushed to earn it and all had to attempt it. Was not unusual to see 75% or higher of any given platoon or company having earned the EIB.
So land nav was something they were taught and were expected to be proficient at as a light infantry unit.
He's now in a combined arms/heavy unit and there is much less emphasis.
They don't seem to put as much time on it and only soldiers who have a good chance of earning attempt EIB
Being a Mech unit maybe it makes sense as their maneuver would be vehicle based.
All IN LTs are taught land nav and have to demonstrate proficiency to graduate IBOLC. And it's one of the first screening challenges in Ranger School (usually day 3 of RAP), which all infantry LTs have to at least attempt.
I've been on both sides of the Mounted and Dismounted map reading. You just do it totally different and both are a perishable skill for a couple of years until you get really used to it.
The whole pace count thing is the same way. After you counted as you walked 100 meters, a couple hundred times eventually you understand what 100 meters feels like. Same thing on a vehicle, you sit there with your Map and odometer reading, eventuallly you've got it.
I used to have a map of Hohenfels that, must have been close to ten years old when I threw it away. I can remember being glued to it in the early days, eventually I had the whole thing down and it road next to my override.
All IN LTs are taught land nav and have to demonstrate proficiency to graduate IBOLC. And it's one of the first screening challenges in Ranger School (usually day 3 of RAP), which all infantry LTs have to at least attempt.
In the Corps all O1s are taught land nav in The Basic School. It's neither harder nor easier than any other land nav training, and the training areas (if I recall, there are four) are not harder. They also have to show proficiency. Then those who go to infantry get it again, at a grad school level: you cover the material very fast, and the courses are harder and the waypoints are harder to find.
I would trade land nav curriculum with SF, Rangers, SEALs, just to benchmark, but all the training was essentially the same.
The few second lieutenants who were awful were, fortunately, few and far between, and to their credit, often deferred to one of the guys in the platoon to run point and handle land nav.
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