View Full Version : New Sig 320 lawsuit
There's been a few about the 320 that Sig won I believe, but this one seems to have more meat. Is it current trend of people who can't take personal responsibility for their poor decisions or legit design flaws of the 320? I lean forward the former from what I have seen. Lawsuit:
1. The Plaintiffs in this action are a group of highly trained and experienced firearms
users whose lives were upended by a dangerously defective pistol: the Sig Sauer P320.
2. Upon the information discovered through research and document production, the
Sig Sauer P320 is the most dangerous pistol for its users sold in the United States market.
3. The Plaintiffs in this action are federal law enforcement agents, police officers,
combat veterans, detectives, firearms instructors, and civilians who have dedicated significant
portions of their lives to the safe use of weapons.
4. The Plaintiffs in this action trusted Sig Sauer to live up to its reputation as a designer
and manufacturer of safe and reliable handguns.
5. The Plaintiffs in this action trusted Sig Sauer to live up to its promise that the P320
“would not fire unless you want it to.”
6. The Plaintiffs in this action were lied to and let down by Sig Sauer, falling victim
to the dangerously designed and manufactured P320.
7. Plaintiff, Fernando Armendariz (“Plaintiff” or “Armendariz”) is an adult
individual, citizen, and resident of the State of Texas, residing at the above-captioned address.
Case 1:22-cv-00536 Document 1 Filed 11/30/22 Page 4 of 143
5
8. Plaintiff, Miriam Trebino (“Plaintiff” or “Trebino”) is the wife of Armendariz, is a
citizen, and resident of the State of Texas, residing at the above-captioned address, and makes
claims of loss of consortium as described herein.
9. Plaintiff, Matthew Breedon (“Plaintiff” or “Breedon”), is an adult individual,
citizen, and resident of the State of Georgia, residing at the above-captioned address.
10. Plaintiff, Lindsey Brooke Mixon (“Plaintiff” or “Mixon”) is the wife of Breedon,
is an adult individual, citizen, and resident of the State of Georgia, residing at the above-captioned
address, and makes claims of loss of consortium as described herein.
Cont: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nhd.60338/gov.uscourts.nhd.60338.1.0.pdf
SomeOtherGuy
12-22-22, 08:59
The detailed allegations begin on page 24. Each incident is individual, but most relate to un-holstering or re-holstering, and they all allege that the pistol fired without anyone touching the trigger. Dates at issue seem to be post-recall, although I think each separate pistol would have to be looked at for pre- or post-recall parts. (Maybe this is addressed elsewhere in the 143 page document.)
It's one to watch. I had assumed the recall fixed things, but this lawsuit implies that it didn't.
john armond
12-22-22, 09:13
The detailed allegations begin on page 24. Each incident is individual, but most relate to un-holstering or re-holstering, and they all allege that the pistol fired without anyone touching the trigger. Dates at issue seem to be post-recall, although I think each separate pistol would have to be looked at for pre- or post-recall parts. (Maybe this is addressed elsewhere in the 143 page document.)
It's one to watch. I had assumed the recall fixed things, but this lawsuit implies that it didn't.
If all these reports of the pistol firing while secured inside it’s holster it looks pretty bad. I have stood next to someone on the qual line who had his finger inside the trigger guard while reholstering. He shot himself in the leg but didn’t believe he had his finger in the wrong spot. While holstering or unholstering I can see someone pulling the trigger without consciously knowing, however if the pistol is just sitting in the holster…that’s a different case.
Wonder why we haven't heard of any M17 incidents from the Army?
john armond
12-22-22, 10:59
Wonder why we haven't heard of any M17 incidents from the Army?
Wasn’t there some slight design variation between the military and civilian guns or am I remembering that wrong?
Wasn’t there some slight design variation between the military and civilian guns or am I remembering that wrong?
The only variation I'm aware of is that the military M17 has a slightly heavier slide. The civvie M17 has a lighter slide to handle the plethora of ammo types that civilians are expected to use. There may be other differences (?).
SomeOtherGuy
12-22-22, 11:46
Wasn’t there some slight design variation between the military and civilian guns or am I remembering that wrong?
Was under the impression that all military M17s have a thumb safety, and very few of the civilian ones do (including, specifically, the civilian-market M17 copy).
SomeOtherGuy
12-22-22, 11:49
If all these reports of the pistol firing while secured inside it’s holster it looks pretty bad. I have stood next to someone on the qual line who had his finger inside the trigger guard while reholstering. He shot himself in the leg but didn’t believe he had his finger in the wrong spot. While holstering or unholstering I can see someone pulling the trigger without consciously knowing, however if the pistol is just sitting in the holster…that’s a different case.
If you have time, read the incidents described in the lawsuit. Most of them list the exact holster type, and in some cases it's a type where it would be difficult or impossible to have your finger in the trigger guard for the process.
I emphasize I don't know if these allegations are true or if this is just a batch of "most professional in the room" type people. At first glance the descriptions suggest not. If all the allegations are actually true, the P320 is severely defective. A big if though.
Was under the impression that all military M17s have a thumb safety, and very few of the civilian ones do (including, specifically, the civilian-market M17 copy).
That, combined with serious leverage to encourage soldiers to use it.
And if there are mechanical AD's the DoD will do everything they can to squelch them.
That's the kind of information the DoD is great at keeping a secret & suppressing until the class-action lawsuits start. Especially when it comes to chemical hazards...Benzene, base water, Agent Orange, etc..
This exact thread is already going in the handgun section.
dwhitehorne
12-22-22, 13:12
Having dealt with P320's everyday for 5 years before retirement and having 1100 pistols pass through my hands, I always notice none of these law suits talk about a loaded pistol sitting unattended discharging. My guess is the military M17 with the external safety negates the trigger being moved in out of the holster is not as much as an issue. I have read of a few military negligent discharges but since it's the military you don't see the volume of law suits about negligent discharges like you see with Law Enforcement officers trying to get out of administrative action against them.
The recall (safety upgrade) involved the drop firing. Remember none of the pistol safety systems were failing. The weight of the newer style trigger (in 2015) was moving enough to release the sear when landing at the specific angle. This was discovered with the military 8 foot drop test. The pistol passed SAAMI 4 foot drop test.
My opinion is the trigger pull is so short compared to other pistols that anything touching the trigger is firing the weapon. In 2015 I had the option of ordering the P320 with the trigger we are all familiar with. Sig also offered a LE only Glock style trigger safety that no one went for and Sig dropped it in 2016. Watching officers qualify for 10 years at work, I would be a rich man if I had a dollar for every time I caught an officer with a draw string or part of a shirt or jacket around the mouth of the holster when officers try to reholster their weapons. There was plenty of Glock leg over the years. Sig is in hundreds of thousands of holsters now so we see more and more of these discharges. If Sig ever looses a substantial sum in a law suit, it will be interesting to see if the flood gates of law suits open up.
David
Having dealt with P320's everyday for 5 years before retirement and having 1100 pistols pass through my hands, I always notice none of these law suits talk about a loaded pistol sitting unattended discharging. My guess is the military M17 with the external safety negates the trigger being moved in out of the holster is not as much as an issue. I have read of a few military negligent discharges but since it's the military you don't see the volume of law suits about negligent discharges like you see with Law Enforcement officers trying to get out of administrative action against them.
The recall (safety upgrade) involved the drop firing. Remember none of the pistol safety systems were failing. The weight of the newer style trigger (in 2015) was moving enough to release the sear when landing at the specific angle. This was discovered with the military 8 foot drop test. The pistol passed SAAMI 4 foot drop test.
My opinion is the trigger pull is so short compared to other pistols that anything touching the trigger is firing the weapon. In 2015 I had the option of ordering the P320 with the trigger we are all familiar with. Sig also offered a LE only Glock style trigger safety that no one went for and Sig dropped it in 2016. Watching officers qualify for 10 years at work, I would be a rich man if I had a dollar for every time I caught an officer with a draw string or part of a shirt or jacket around the mouth of the holster when officers try to reholster their weapons. There was plenty of Glock leg over the years. Sig is in hundreds of thousands of holsters now so we see more and more of these discharges. If Sig ever looses a substantial sum in a law suit, it will be interesting to see if the flood gates of law suits open up.
DavidThis sums up my thoughts. I do think their striker block is a poor design, and I could see it failing sooner then the style typically found in most pistols, but I don't think that is THE issue.
I think it is a combination of a short and light trigger pull, and not having a trigger dingus doesn't help either. It also has a pretty large trigger guard giving plenty of room for foreign object to get in. With its fully tensioned striker, you are essentially carrying a SAO pistol without a safety. Sure, it can be done safely, but the design leaves a lot of room for error.
Yes we have all heard of Glock leg, and if it happened on a glock (smaller trigger guard, partially tensioned striker, longer trigger pull, trigger dingus), I would expect it to happen more often on the p320
Soli Deo Gloria
If all the allegations are actually true, the P320 is severely defective. A big if though.
If it’s defective we should be able to pinpoint the failure mode and reproduce it. Like anyone could once the angle that allowed drop failures was found.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-22-22, 15:42
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?231540-Sig-320-safety-issues
Wonder why we haven't heard of any M17 incidents from the Army?
M17/18 is a different, consistent spec with less production variation. Same for certain contract guns. 320s flowing into commercial side and sometimes LE can vary widely.
M17/18 manual safety is largely not a factor, not all utilize it.
With that, let's head back to the other existing thread. Thanks.
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