View Full Version : Recommend a 12.5" Upper
Adrenaline_6
01-05-23, 14:46
Suggestions?
Will be suppressed most of the time...when I finally get them in. Will be going on a new ADM UIC pistol lower with law tactical fold mechanism.
BRT...sold out right now.
Sionics
SOLGW
The Riflespeed gas control peaks my interest. They make complete uppers.
I hate to say it, but I think the best 12.5s right now are the ones you assemble yourself.
If running suppressed, my first stops would be BRT, Sionics, Centurion, and SOLGW.
Sidneyious
01-05-23, 15:58
I hate to say it, but I think the best 12.5s right now are the ones you assemble yourself.
I agree here if you can find the right barrel you want, Me I just went and got a aero/BA for my 12.5 with a BA carpenter bcg.
Its going to be my trunk gun so as long as it keeps working I really dont care, gassing for a can should be alright with an a5 system in the h2 or h3 buffers because I think BA has a larger than normal port.
I wish aero and BA would get their shit together and do proper length handguards with barrels, like who the **** wants a 9" HG on a 12" barrel?
they always instock so theres that
If you want to run it suppressed and unsuppressed there are only two barrels that I would recommend:
Ballistic Advantage 12.3" 5.56 BA HANSON CARBINE LENGTH AR 15 BARREL W/ LO PRO, PERFORMANCE SERIES - https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/12-3-5-56-ba-hanson-carbine-length-ar-15-barrel-w-lo-pro-performance-series.html
OR
Noveske CHF Chrome Lined Lo-Pro Gas Block Barrel 5.56, 12.5 Leonidas - https://noveske.com/products/chf-chrome-lined-lo-pro-barrel/?attribute_barrel-length=10.5%22%20Shorty&attribute_headspaced-bolt=No
All of the others I have seen have issues with different ammo and weather conditions. I can honestly say that I have built over 20 different 12.5 uppers with all kinds of barrels and gas systems over the last 13 years.
If running suppressed, my first stops would be BRT, Sionics, Centurion, and SOLGW. some youtubers did a comparison of a few uppers and found the SOLGW 12.5” to be very gassy with a can. I’m not sure how much stock I should put into that, and of course if true, its only a gas tube away from being fine.
If you want to run it suppressed and unsuppressed there are only two barrels that I would recommend:
Ballistic Advantage 12.3" 5.56 BA HANSON CARBINE LENGTH AR 15 BARREL W/ LO PRO, PERFORMANCE SERIES - https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/12-3-5-56-ba-hanson-carbine-length-ar-15-barrel-w-lo-pro-performance-series.html
OR
Noveske CHF Chrome Lined Lo-Pro Gas Block Barrel 5.56, 12.5 Leonidas - https://noveske.com/products/chf-chrome-lined-lo-pro-barrel/?attribute_barrel-length=10.5%22%20Shorty&attribute_headspaced-bolt=No
All of the others I have seen have issues with different ammo and weather conditions. I can honestly say that I have built over 20 different 12.5 uppers with all kinds of barrels and gas systems over the last 13 years.
I also really dig my Criterion Core, and my BCM has been stoppage free, although the Core is a better choice for most uses. That’s not a big sample, of course. I’ve got 4 12.5s.
I agree here if you can find the right barrel you want, Me I just went and got a aero/BA for my 12.5 with a BA carpenter bcg.
Its going to be my trunk gun so as long as it keeps working I really dont care, gassing for a can should be alright with an a5 system in the h2 or h3 buffers because I think BA has a larger than normal port.
I wish aero and BA would get their shit together and do proper length handguards with barrels, like who the **** wants a 9" HG on a 12" barrel?
they always instock so theres that My 12.3” Hanson had a smaller than average port. It gave me no drama, even before I choked it down to make it into a suppressed-only host.
I too wish manufacturers would get their collective shit together and make more 11”-11.5” handguards.
@GTF425 is on the 12.5” train, also.
gunnerblue
01-05-23, 16:35
If you want to run it suppressed and unsuppressed there are only two barrels that I would recommend:
Ballistic Advantage 12.3" 5.56 BA HANSON CARBINE LENGTH AR 15 BARREL W/ LO PRO, PERFORMANCE SERIES - https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/12-3-5-56-ba-hanson-carbine-length-ar-15-barrel-w-lo-pro-performance-series.html
OR
Noveske CHF Chrome Lined Lo-Pro Gas Block Barrel 5.56, 12.5 Leonidas - https://noveske.com/products/chf-chrome-lined-lo-pro-barrel/?attribute_barrel-length=10.5%22%20Shorty&attribute_headspaced-bolt=No
All of the others I have seen have issues with different ammo and weather conditions. I can honestly say that I have built over 20 different 12.5 uppers with all kinds of barrels and gas systems over the last 13 years.
I bought a 12.5" Noveske CHF from the EE a few years ago (from you, I think). It's ran everything I've put through it suppressed/unsuppressed, dirty etc. That said, when I build a other 12.5" I think I'll give BRT a try. 11" Larue handguard again, though.
Sidneyious
01-05-23, 16:40
IIRC mike said he has a slightly larger port on the 12.5 because most people dont run good ammo, they had issues of people using trash and the gun not cycling right.
That was a few years ago though and the aero was literally the only thing in stock in my price range. I at least got a handguard out of it(I will be ditching it for a centurion arms c4 12 quad rail like I got on my 10.5 at some point).
. 11" Larue handguard again, though. yes.
(I will be ditching it for a centurion arms c4 12 quad rail like I got on my 10.5 at some point). you’ll find that 12” handguards are too long unless you’re using a KX5 or something.
Sidneyious
01-05-23, 16:46
yes.
you’ll find that 12” handguards are too long unless you’re using a KX5 or something.
Eh I run YHM so I aint worried, everything is forward-ish of the threads, I tried a 9.5 on a 10.5 and I fn hated it to all hell and back
some youtubers did a comparison of a few uppers and found the SOLGW 12.5” to be very gassy with a can. I’m not sure how much stock I should put into that, and of course if true, its only a gas tube away from being fine.
I also really dig my Criterion Core, and my BCM has been stoppage free, although the Core is a better choice for most uses. That’s not a big sample, of course. I’ve got 4 12.5s.
My 12.3” Hanson had a smaller than average port. It gave me no drama, even before I choked it down to make it into a suppressed-only host.
I too wish manufacturers would get their collective shit together and make more 11”-11.5” handguards.
@GTF425 is on the 12.5” train, also.
SOLGW definitely tends to be on the gassy side, they just market the guns as function oriented and for some reason everyone is cool with that, even though similar size ports from BCM draws criticism of over gassing.
I’m less than 500 rounds into my 12.5 Core but haven’t seen the first hint of an issue yet.
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Send it...
01-05-23, 16:49
What about the Roscoe Patrol length gas barrels? Anyone know how they are gassed or shoot?
My recipe was:
Vltor MUR1a
Criterion Core 12.5
Geissele Mk16 13.5 with one mlok slot chopped off.
Centurion arms bcg.
I shoot it suppressed pretty much exclusively. It's still fairly new but I like it a lot so far.
Eh I run YHM so I aint worried, everything is forward-ish of the threads, I tried a 9.5 on a 10.5 and I fn hated it to all hell and back that miiiight work. However, most 12” rails are actually about ~12.5”, even the poorly named DD 12.0”. I’ve got a YHM mount laying around here…I don’t think it’ll quite clear any of my 12” quads, but I don’t have that Centurion rail.
What about the Roscoe Patrol length gas barrels? Anyone know how they are gassed or shoot?
I think most barrels are a little gassy when you add a can, regardless of advertising, Youtube endorsements, social media hype, or gas system length. Obviously some do better than others. But, if it sucks, you can’t just buy a BRT tube for it like you can with carbine gas. FWIW, outside of 12.5s, I’ve messed with a variety of extended gas system lengths, and in mixed suppressed/unsuppresed use, they all gave me more drama than carbine.
My recipe was:
Vltor MUR1a
Criterion Core 12.5
Geissele Mk16 13.5 with one mlok slot chopped off.
Centurion arms bcg.
I shoot it suppressed pretty much exclusively. It's still fairly new but I like it a lot so far.
I wanted to get a chopped MK16 but settled for an SLR. Still kind of want to replace it with a MK16.
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that miiiight work. However, most 12” rails are actually about ~12.5”, even the poorly named DD 12.0”. I’ve got a YHM mount laying around here…I don’t think it’ll quite clear any of my 12” quads, but I don’t have that Centurion rail.
I think most barrels are a little gassy when you add a can, regardless of advertising, Youtube endorsements, social media hype, or gas system length. Obviously some do better than others. But, if it sucks, you can’t just buy a BRT tube for it like you can with carbine gas. FWIW, outside of 12.5s, I’ve messed with a variety of extended gas system lengths, and in mixed suppressed/unsuppresed use, they all gave me more drama than carbine.
I don’t know if BRT has a tube for that length since I believe it’s brand new. One of the reasons I quickly dismissed it.
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Sidneyious
01-05-23, 17:19
that miiiight work. However, most 12” rails are actually about ~12.5”, even the poorly named DD 12.0”. I’ve got a YHM mount laying around here…I don’t think it’ll quite clear any of my 12” quads, but I don’t have that Centurion rail.
I think most barrels are a little gassy when you add a can, regardless of advertising, Youtube endorsements, social media hype, or gas system length. Obviously some do better than others. But, if it sucks, you can’t just buy a BRT tube for it like you can with carbine gas. FWIW, outside of 12.5s, I’ve messed with a variety of extended gas system lengths, and in mixed suppressed/unsuppresed use, they all gave me more drama than carbine.
Well my 12.5 aero/ba its got a stupid 12.6 something hg on a 12.5 and im going to change that.
I got a CA 10" on my 10.5 and it fits perfect.
seeing as im a pleb this is the best I can do right now
https://ibb.co/5631dsR
I wanted to get a chopped MK16 but settled for an SLR. Still kind of want to replace it with a MK16.
You know you want a Larue.
I bought a 12.5" Noveske CHF from the EE a few years ago (from you, I think). It's ran everything I've put through it suppressed/unsuppressed, dirty etc. That said, when I build a other 12.5" I think I'll give BRT a try. 11" Larue handguard again, though.
You did..... good choice. ;)
They work. Very well. And are accurate
some youtubers did a comparison of a few uppers and found the SOLGW 12.5” to be very gassy with a can. I’m not sure how much stock I should put into that, and of course if true, its only a gas tube away from being fine.
I also really dig my Criterion Core, and my BCM has been stoppage free, although the Core is a better choice for most uses. That’s not a big sample, of course. I’ve got 4 12.5s.
My 12.3” Hanson had a smaller than average port. It gave me no drama, even before I choked it down to make it into a suppressed-only host.
I too wish manufacturers would get their collective shit together and make more 11”-11.5” handguards.
@GTF425 is on the 12.5” train, also.
I had issues with some cheep ammo with the Core I had. Not as bad as others, but some.
BCM..... it was my 2nd 12.5. I require better than 3 MOA on a barrel with MK262.......
You know you want a Larue.
Larue is so 2005. Only boomers and Texans use those.
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I had issues with some cheep ammo with the Core I had. Not as bad as others, but some.
Not entirely surprised by that.
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You know you want a Larue.
I know. Why look for for a more inferior rail? I don't get that.
Larue is so 2005. Only boomers and Texans use those.
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That and people that don't like their IR lasers to flex on them with inferior rails......
TexasAggie2005
01-05-23, 18:47
Larue is so 2005. Only boomers and Texans use those.
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And some Texans like me have written them off too.
Larue is so 2005. Only boomers and Texans use those.
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I buy a Larue barrel every couple months just so I can get the Dillo Dust
We have received numerous requests for EZTUNE gas tubes for both the Rosco barrels and Geissele barrels with their respective proprietary gas systems.
From those requests, we can infer that those barrels are gassed more strongly than those people would like.
We don't support those other special lengths and have no plans to do so in the future.
What about the Roscoe Patrol length gas barrels? Anyone know how they are gassed or shoot?
We have 12.5" OPTIMUM SR CL barrels in stock and just added a few uppers to the store as well.
https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/Chrome-Lined-c143927254
https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/Uppers-c20819268
https://d2j6dbq0eux0bg.cloudfront.net/images/812059/3309910682.jpg
Suggestions?
Will be suppressed most of the time...when I finally get them in. Will be going on a new ADM UIC pistol lower with law tactical fold mechanism.
BRT...sold out right now.
Sionics
SOLGW
The Riflespeed gas control peaks my interest. They make complete uppers.
BCM..... it was my 2nd 12.5. I require better than 3 MOA on a barrel with MK262....... ouch. Mines an irons gun, and I just require it to slay E-Types with 62gr FMJs.
Larue is so 2005. Only boomers and Texans use those.
I resent that… I’m a South Louisianian Millennial. That Texan did turn me onto them, though. Its hard to find a rail made for night vision users with adult-sized hands that shoot more than 20 rnds a month. Just kidding around, but yeah, they’re pretty dope.
ouch. Mines an irons gun, and I just require it to slay E-Types with 62gr FMJs.
I resent that… I’m a South Louisianian Millennial. That Texan did turn me onto them, though. Its hard to find a rail made for night vision users with adult-sized hands that shoot more than 20 rnds a month. Just kidding around, but yeah, they’re pretty dope.
I should’ve said Army Texans. They’re the worst.
I was so close to buying DTNVS but bought a new Jeep instead. So the laser thing doesn’t really matter to me. Though I never found anyone at my old unit that disliked the MK16.
If I was looking for an NVG specific upper right now, I’d probably try out the MI Nightfighter since it comes with an 11.5 Core. They used to have heavy representation here so it’d be cool if they could be talked into a 12.5 as well.
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The Army is basically crawling with them. And Californians. Always an interesting mix. Mostly Carolina folk where I’m at now, though.
I should’ve said Army Texans.
-snip-
If I was looking for an NVG specific upper right now, I’d probably try out the MI Nightfighter since it comes with an 11.5 Core. They used to have heavy representation here so it’d be cool if they could be talked into a 12.5 as well.
Oh, its not just stiffness, its also diameter. I’ve found that I actually prefer a little beef in my handguard once I hang a bunch of night shit off it, so I still have something to grip and drive. Plus I’ve been moving back to tailcap activation, which is awkward with a broomstick. And skinny, light rails get hot fast as shit. A skinny quad (Larue/DD) or a chubby MLok (KAC/Larue)are great.
Adrenaline_6
01-06-23, 08:43
Thanks for the input guys.
Thanks for the input guys.
Molon just published his findings from a BRT barrel so between that shooting a little over MOA and those being in stock right now with some user preference options, may be the easiest solid option.
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Molon just published his findings from a BRT barrel
Which section of the site? I don't see it in AR gen or AR tech.
Which section of the site? I don't see it in AR gen or AR tech.
Definitely on ARFCOM and pistol-forum. Lost track of where I saw it.
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I'll keep my eyes peeled here. I don't know how Arftard would get first release. :fie:
(If you see "Lotboy" over there, tell him I said hi!!)
Which section of the site? I don't see it in AR gen or AR tech.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/BRT-Optimum-Accuracy-Evaluation/118-778084/?page=1
Perhaps Molon will post it here as well.
@GTF425 is on the 12.5” train, also.
My sample of one with a DD barrel runs like a top. Loving it so far.
Leonidas24
01-07-23, 10:27
I can't comment directly on how it would function with a LAW folder, but my sample of one Centurion 12.5 and A5 system runs suppressed and unsuppressed like a top. Gassed appropriately and it eats everything from PMC .223 to Frontier 75 gr 5.56 in the hot and cold.
Not to earn the scorn and ire of Docsherm but I'd personally stay away from the Noveske 12.5. Other than the profile which seems to be a little better thought out than the traditional gov profile, it is not worth the $500 price tag. On top of that they are extremely overgassed and the last choice I'd make if running a suppressor. The Centurion is almost half the price of the Noveske and is ported much more conservatively.
https://ar15discounts.com/products/centurion-arms-hammer-forged-5-56-carbine-barrel-12-5/
I can't comment directly on how it would function with a LAW folder, but my sample of one Centurion 12.5 and A5 system runs suppressed and unsuppressed like a top. Gassed appropriately and it eats everything from PMC .223 to Frontier 75 gr 5.56 in the hot and cold.
Not to earn the scorn and ire of Docsherm but I'd personally stay away from the Noveske 12.5. Other than the profile which seems to be a little better thought out than the traditional gov profile, it is not worth the $500 price tag. On top of that they are extremely overgassed and the last choice I'd make if running a suppressor. The Centurion is almost half the price of the Noveske and is ported much more conservatively.
https://ar15discounts.com/products/centurion-arms-hammer-forged-5-56-carbine-barrel-12-5/
The Centurion profile makes more sense the gov
I can't comment directly on how it would function with a LAW folder, but my sample of one Centurion 12.5 and A5 system runs suppressed and unsuppressed like a top. Gassed appropriately and it eats everything from PMC .223 to Frontier 75 gr 5.56 in the hot and cold.
Not to earn the scorn and ire of Docsherm but I'd personally stay away from the Noveske 12.5. Other than the profile which seems to be a little better thought out than the traditional gov profile, it is not worth the $500 price tag. On top of that they are extremely overgassed and the last choice I'd make if running a suppressor. The Centurion is almost half the price of the Noveske and is ported much more conservatively.
https://ar15discounts.com/products/centurion-arms-hammer-forged-5-56-carbine-barrel-12-5/
Buy some ArmsCorp ammo and shoot it with your Centurion. Then you will understand why the Noveske is properly ported. It is also a sub moa barrel with MK262. The Centurion is not. Another memeber here has a Centurion and we shoot all of the time. He just got a Noveske 12.5 because his Centurion is not as accurate, doesn't run all of the ammo mine does, and has issues in sub-freezing Temps.
Have you done a side by side comparison of the two? If you have not, try it. You will react everything you just posted.
Leonidas24
01-07-23, 22:46
Buy some ArmsCorp ammo and shoot it with your Centurion. Then you will understand why the Noveske is properly ported. It is also a sub moa barrel with MK262. The Centurion is not. Another memeber here has a Centurion and we shoot all of the time. He just got a Noveske 12.5 because his Centurion is not as accurate, doesn't run all of the ammo mine does, and has issues in sub-freezing Temps.
Have you done a side by side comparison of the two? If you have not, try it. You will react everything you just posted.
There's no need to test them side by side as I've already had a 12.5 Noveske. It was so overgassed it shot Brown Bear steel case with an H3 and Sprinco blue. I have no reason to doubt that the Noveske is more accurate but I will refute issues with Centurion barrels as a whole, not counting small samples that may have had issues. Mine's ported at .066 and with an A5H2 buffer runs everything from PMC .223 up to Winchester M855. Everyone else I know that's put time and ammo through the Centurion 12.5s has had great success with them across the board.
What is the Noveske 12.5 gas port.
These days I wont buy a barrel without knowing the specs.
Even then I measure it myself for confirmation.
There's no need to test them side by side as I've already had a 12.5 Noveske. It was so overgassed it shot Brown Bear steel case with an H3 and Sprinco blue. I have no reason to doubt that the Noveske is more accurate but I will refute issues with Centurion barrels as a whole, not counting small samples that may have had issues. Mine's ported at .066 and with an A5H2 buffer runs everything from PMC .223 up to Winchester M855. Everyone else I know that's put time and ammo through the Centurion 12.5s has had great success with them across the board.
I stopped buying Noveske after they replaced my defective 14.5 barrel with the most violently recoiling 5.56 barrel I’ve ever shot. My guns have to be reliable but that barrel must’ve had a massive gas port, maybe big enough that it would’ve malfunctioned with 5.56 (I was in Hawaii and only had .223).
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Leonidas24
01-08-23, 11:37
What is the Noveske 12.5 gas port.
These days I wont buy a barrel without knowing the specs.
Even then I measure it myself for confirmation.Mine was .073. Others have reported .071-.073.
My Centurion was .066 new.
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If you want to run it suppressed and unsuppressed there are only two barrels that I would recommend:
Ballistic Advantage 12.3" 5.56 BA HANSON CARBINE LENGTH AR 15 BARREL W/ LO PRO, PERFORMANCE SERIES - https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/12-3-5-56-ba-hanson-carbine-length-ar-15-barrel-w-lo-pro-performance-series.html
OR
Noveske CHF Chrome Lined Lo-Pro Gas Block Barrel 5.56, 12.5 Leonidas - https://noveske.com/products/chf-chrome-lined-lo-pro-barrel/?attribute_barrel-length=10.5%22%20Shorty&attribute_headspaced-bolt=No
All of the others I have seen have issues with different ammo and weather conditions. I can honestly say that I have built over 20 different 12.5 uppers with all kinds of barrels and gas systems over the last 13 years.
Do you know what size the gas port is on the BA 12.3?
Mine was .073. Others have reported .071-.073.
My Centurion was .066 new.
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I just went to Centurion and its currently listed as .064
https://centurionarms.com/barrels/crmov-lightweight-carbine/
Bluedreaux
01-08-23, 21:08
We recently bought three Sionics 12.5” uppers at work.
They all shot 1.5-2” 10 shot groups with 75 grain Good Dot and 75 grain American Eagle. Each barrel shot both rounds to the same point of impact.
Ejection is at 4 o’clock with all three barrels.
We liked them enough to purchase two more individually. I’ll have an accuracy report for them next week.
We recently bought three Sionics 12.5” uppers at work.
They all shot 1.5-2” 10 shot groups with 75 grain Good Dot and 75 grain American Eagle. Each barrel shot both rounds to the same point of impact.
Ejection is at 4 o’clock with all three barrels.
We liked them enough to purchase two more individually. I’ll have an accuracy report for them next week.
I had no idea they were making a 12.5 now. Not my first choice in handguard but I’m super intrigued.
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nightchief
01-09-23, 11:30
My Centurion 12.5 is .064, not .066. It had run well for thousands of rounds, but it and Armscor ammo absolutely did not get along well. Ultimately, I ended up with a blown primer in the chamber. It has run fine with PMC Bronze at about 28 degrees. I've been able to consistently get 2 MOA out of the CA, out to 200 yds, with decent ammo. Barrel is probably better than that, but I'm not. CA runs well suppressed
I also have a BA 12.3 Hanson, which does have a gas port of .066. It runs quite well, both unsuppressed and suppressed with a SF can. I've had about the same accuracy as the CA, but as I said, I'm a 2 MOA shooter. Its been through a Pressburg Nightfighter class and ran well in temps right around freezing with 55gr Wolf Gold.
I bought a Noveske recently. I haven't built the upper yet, but I'm expecting an upper that is a little more gassy but runs everything. Why does this matter? I want something that will run the shit ammo that was being made during the pandemic when quality standards were set aside to get more to market. I want to be reliable in all conditions, with any ammo I might HAVE to run though it. And I expect it will last the rest of my lifetime, even running it hard and suppressed.
And I'll be butting one of those "terrible, rotten" LaRue MLOK 11" hand gaurds on it as it needs to be rigid for an IR laser. I have a SOLGW M76 hand guard on the CA currently, and its not bad, but only available in 10" length.
NC
There's no need to test them side by side as I've already had a 12.5 Noveske. It was so overgassed it shot Brown Bear steel case with an H3 and Sprinco blue. I have no reason to doubt that the Noveske is more accurate but I will refute issues with Centurion barrels as a whole, not counting small samples that may have had issues. Mine's ported at .066 and with an A5H2 buffer runs everything from PMC .223 up to Winchester M855. Everyone else I know that's put time and ammo through the Centurion 12.5s has had great success with them across the board.
nightchief
01-09-23, 11:31
The barrel I have is .066, measured with a pin gauge
Do you know what size the gas port is on the BA 12.3?
Hammer_Man
01-09-23, 12:08
To all you guys recommending Noveske, do you mean the CHF or stainless barrels? Reason I ask, is that I’d like to try either barrel (Noveske or V Seven stainless match, medium contour) in a mini Recce style build. Just curious if the stainless barrels hold up well, and are worth the $$$ over Criterion or Centurion.
To all you guys recommending Noveske, do you mean the CHF or stainless barrels? Reason I ask, is that I’d like to try either barrel (Noveske or V Seven stainless match, medium contour) in a mini Recce style build. Just curious if the stainless barrels hold up well, and are worth the $$$ over Criterion or Centurion.
I’ve had Noveske stainless barrels (14.5”), and they’ve held up much better than I expected. Heavy, though. I think the CL barrels are skinnier.
As far as accuracy and precision go, I’ve had Irish luck with my sample of two, and they’re awesome. Only barrel I’ve used that shot M855 and steel cased pretty decent, though those are a waste of a good barrel.
Hammer_Man
01-09-23, 12:52
I’ve had Noveske stainless barrels (14.5”), and they’ve held up much better than I expected. Heavy, though. I think the CL barrels are skinnier.
As far as accuracy and precision go, I’ve had Irish luck with my sample of two, and they’re awesome. Only barrel I’ve used that shot M855 and steel cased pretty decent, though those are a waste of a good barrel.
Good copy, thanks for the quick reply. My concern about their longevity stems from their somewhat slim profile. Even their medium contour looks like everyone else’s skinny profile to me.
Good copy, thanks for the quick reply. My concern about their longevity stems from their somewhat slim profile. Even their medium contour looks like everyone else’s skinny profile to me.
They may have changed. I got mine during the time John was alive. IIRC, their CL barrel profiles were on the medium side (and well balanced), and their SS were thicc, if you look at the weight instead of the profile name. Mine were/are heavier than a modern SOCOM M4A1 barrel, and that likely goes part-way to explaining my accuracy, recoil, and longevity experiences.
nightchief
01-09-23, 14:09
In my case, I was referring the CHF CL barrel.
To all you guys recommending Noveske, do you mean the CHF or stainless barrels? Reason I ask, is that I’d like to try either barrel (Noveske or V Seven stainless match, medium contour) in a mini Recce style build. Just curious if the stainless barrels hold up well, and are worth the $$$ over Criterion or Centurion.
Hammer_Man
01-09-23, 14:13
They may have changed. I got mine during the time John was alive. IIRC, their CL barrel profiles were on the medium side (and well balanced), and their SS were thicc, if you look at the weight instead of the profile name. Mine were/are heavier than a modern SOCOM M4A1 barrel, and that likely goes part-way to explaining my accuracy, recoil, and longevity experiences.
Looks like the 14.5” stainless Afghan barrel weighs 32 ounces, which is on par with a Colt SOCOM barrel IIRC. I might have to give it a try…. I don’t want to go through the hassle of pinning/welding, especially on a precision build, so I might get the 16” Recon version instead.
Leonidas24
01-09-23, 21:17
My Centurion 12.5 is .064, not .066. It had run well for thousands of rounds, but it and Armscor ammo absolutely did not get along well. Ultimately, I ended up with a blown primer in the chamber. It has run fine with PMC Bronze at about 28 degrees. I've been able to consistently get 2 MOA out of the CA, out to 200 yds, with decent ammo. Barrel is probably better than that, but I'm not. CA runs well suppressed
I also have a BA 12.3 Hanson, which does have a gas port of .066. It runs quite well, both unsuppressed and suppressed with a SF can. I've had about the same accuracy as the CA, but as I said, I'm a 2 MOA shooter. Its been through a Pressburg Nightfighter class and ran well in temps right around freezing with 55gr Wolf Gold.
I bought a Noveske recently. I haven't built the upper yet, but I'm expecting an upper that is a little more gassy but runs everything. Why does this matter? I want something that will run the shit ammo that was being made during the pandemic when quality standards were set aside to get more to market. I want to be reliable in all conditions, with any ammo I might HAVE to run though it. And I expect it will last the rest of my lifetime, even running it hard and suppressed.
And I'll be butting one of those "terrible, rotten" LaRue MLOK 11" hand gaurds on it as it needs to be rigid for an IR laser. I have a SOLGW M76 hand guard on the CA currently, and its not bad, but only available in 10" length.
NC
See bold: same thing happened with my Noveske in 2010 but with Federal XM193BK. Armscor is hot garbage and I've popped primers in two other brands of barrels (one Sionics, one BA Hanson) between 2015-2018. It was bottom of the barrel before the pandemic.
Sounds like the BA Hanson 12.3 is the least controversial with a decent gas port and profile.
Screw gas ports, buncha nerds ;)
What I want to know is what kind of accuracy are y’all actually realistically getting from your 12.5”? Not your best group ever, what is your average dependable level of accuracy that you expect, particularly Centurion, BRT, Noveske (CL), etc.
I really never shot for groups with a CL barrel until I got into the “mini-RECCE” builds and I’ve been chasing my tail trying to get better than about 1.3 moa. I may have been spoiled with a Noveske SS 16” that seemed to shoot everything sub-moa, but the same loads that shot 3/4” in that gun won’t do better than 1.3 in any of the CL 12.5” guns I’ve built. Quite honestly I’m beginning to wonder if it’s not something to do with my NX8.
Bluedreaux
01-10-23, 22:12
Screw gas ports, buncha nerds ;)
What I want to know is what kind of accuracy are y’all actually realistically getting from your 12.5”? Not your best group ever, what is your average dependable level of accuracy that you expect, particularly Centurion, BRT, Noveske (CL), etc.
I really never shot for groups with a CL barrel until I got into the “mini-RECCE” builds and I’ve been chasing my tail trying to get better than about 1.3 moa. I may have been spoiled with a Noveske SS 16” that seemed to shoot everything sub-moa, but the same loads that shot 3/4” in that gun won’t do better than 1.3 in any of the CL 12.5” guns I’ve built. Quite honestly I’m beginning to wonder if it’s not something to do with my NX8.
For how many rounds?
Sidneyious
01-10-23, 22:22
Screw gas ports, buncha nerds ;)
What I want to know is what kind of accuracy are y’all actually realistically getting from your 12.5”? Not your best group ever, what is your average dependable level of accuracy that you expect, particularly Centurion, BRT, Noveske (CL), etc.
I really never shot for groups with a CL barrel until I got into the “mini-RECCE” builds and I’ve been chasing my tail trying to get better than about 1.3 moa. I may have been spoiled with a Noveske SS 16” that seemed to shoot everything sub-moa, but the same loads that shot 3/4” in that gun won’t do better than 1.3 in any of the CL 12.5” guns I’ve built. Quite honestly I’m beginning to wonder if it’s not something to do with my NX8.
Isnt stainless and chrome-moly the more accurate barrel of say a nitrited chf barrel and chrome lined is inherently less accurate because the surface is never as equal the entire length of the barrel?
Last I knew of the plating process was not exactly, exact in depositing materials.
nightchief
01-11-23, 07:47
Shooting prone, 200 yds or less, gun on a bipod and sandbags, I expect the CA and BA I have to sub 2 MOA (I’m not consistently better than that). Both barrels have proved to be that good with a variety of ammo (GECO 55 gr FMJ, Wolf Gold 55gr FMJ, CBC M193 and CBC 77gr SMK). I expect the Noveske will be the same.
NC
Screw gas ports, buncha nerds ;)
What I want to know is what kind of accuracy are y’all actually realistically getting from your 12.5”? Not your best group ever, what is your average dependable level of accuracy that you expect, particularly Centurion, BRT, Noveske (CL), etc.
I really never shot for groups with a CL barrel until I got into the “mini-RECCE” builds and I’ve been chasing my tail trying to get better than about 1.3 moa. I may have been spoiled with a Noveske SS 16” that seemed to shoot everything sub-moa, but the same loads that shot 3/4” in that gun won’t do better than 1.3 in any of the CL 12.5” guns I’ve built. Quite honestly I’m beginning to wonder if it’s not something to do with my NX8.
For how many rounds?
5 rd group
Isnt stainless and chrome-moly the more accurate barrel of say a nitrited chf barrel and chrome lined is inherently less accurate because the surface is never as equal the entire length of the barrel?
Last I knew of the plating process was not exactly, exact in depositing materials.
Yes, but when you have manufacturers of CL barrels that claim (or at one point did claim) moa accuracy and have no shortage of users that report it, and that doesn’t line up with my experience so far, then that’s why I ask.
Shooting prone, 200 yds or less, gun on a bipod and sandbags, I expect the CA and BA I have to sub 2 MOA (I’m not consistently better than that). Both barrels have proved to be that good with a variety of ammo (GECO 55 gr FMJ, Wolf Gold 55gr FMJ, CBC M193 and CBC 77gr SMK). I expect the Noveske will be the same.
NC
Thanks. Just for reference, have you shot with a known more accurate rifle (SS for example) and what were your results?
nightchief
01-11-23, 09:10
I have an 18” LaRue SS that I can get close to 1 MOA with at 100 yds using BH 77gr SMK or Hornady 75gr…I think it will shoot tighter, but needs a better trigger puller
Have a Noveske 14.5 CL-CHF that I have gotten 1 MOA 5 rd groups out of…it’s a very accurate barrel. Again, this is in very controlled conditions.
Thanks. Just for reference, have you shot with a known more accurate rifle (SS for example) and what were your results?
What about the Roscoe Patrol length gas barrels? Anyone know how they are gassed or shoot?
I had a 12.5 K9 barrel, I found it to be over gassed when unsuppressed. Very accurate though, and I really liked the profile. I replaced it with a BA Hanson 12.3 and it is very good unsuppressed, haven't run it suppressed since my can is still in "jail". Gas port on the BA Hanson pinned at .066, never checked the K9 port. If I build another 12.5 upper it'll be with a Triarc, BRT, or BA Hanson barrel.
Sidneyious
01-11-23, 11:16
Yes, but when you have manufacturers of CL barrels that claim (or at one point did claim) moa accuracy and have no shortage of users that report it, and that doesn’t line up with my experience so far, then that’s why I ask.
Then I would be calling foul on the maker of that barrel if that is their true claim and the claims of the other users.
Screw gas ports, buncha nerds ;)
What I want to know is what kind of accuracy are y’all actually realistically getting from your 12.5”? Not your best group ever, what is your average dependable level of accuracy that you expect, particularly Centurion, BRT, Noveske (CL), etc.
I really never shot for groups with a CL barrel until I got into the “mini-RECCE” builds and I’ve been chasing my tail trying to get better than about 1.3 moa. I may have been spoiled with a Noveske SS 16” that seemed to shoot everything sub-moa, but the same loads that shot 3/4” in that gun won’t do better than 1.3 in any of the CL 12.5” guns I’ve built. Quite honestly I’m beginning to wonder if it’s not something to do with my NX8.
My targets are normally either taller than they are wide, or wider than they are tall, and if I had to broadly generalize, they are ~2x4 moa at distance. I don’t think I’ve ever shot a string of groups with my 12.5” guns. Hit probability of the entire system (user/barrel/ammo/optic/weather/position/range estimate) is much more important to me. When the barrel becomes the limiting factor, it gets retired.
Sidneyious
01-11-23, 12:15
Ok so just have to ask, the 12.5 is basically an extra 50y of maybe unlife from a 10.5, still very much a cqb gun, 100y sure, 150? wouldnt you want something better?
I ask this because recently I learned about the 12.5 spr from someone I used to respect because they didnt do it for money more as a hobby.
Ok so just have to ask, the 12.5 is basically an extra 50y of maybe unlife from a 10.5, still very much a cqb gun, 100y sure, 150? wouldnt you want something better?
I ask this because recently I learned about the 12.5 spr from someone I used to respect because they didnt do it for money more as a hobby.
The maximum effective range with a 12.5” is nearly indistinguishable from a 14.5”. About 100yds less at the most. A 10.5” is a much bigger difference, in my opinion, due to the increased importance in range estimation and DOPE, and in ammo selection.
Inside a structure, I can maneuver an unsuppressed 12.5” just as well as a Mk18, and better than a M4. So its all gain with no big losses. Even suppressed, its not a big deal, I just use a shorter can when I’m playing indoors.
The ballistic and practical differences in barrel lengths is non-linear, and 12.5” is a sweet spot unless your use can tolerate 4 or more additional inches.
Sidneyious
01-11-23, 12:51
The maximum effective range with a 12.5” is nearly indistinguishable from a 14.5”. About 100yds less at the most. A 10.5” is a much bigger difference, in my opinion, due to the increased importance in range estimation and DOPE, and in ammo selection.
Inside a structure, I can maneuver an unsuppressed 12.5” just as well as a Mk18, and better than a M4. So its all gain with no big losses. Even suppressed, its not a big deal, I just use a shorter can when I’m playing indoors.
The ballistic and practical differences in barrel lengths is non-linear, and 12.5” is a sweet spot unless your use can tolerate 4 or more additional inches.
Ive been trying to ask this question of many youtubers that have the ability but they never do it.
accuracy at range has never been an issue unless you used a piece of pipe as a barrel. but no one will take a chunk of ballistic gel at put it 100y out and shoot it, we know they have guns good enough to do that but wont.
I have guns, ammo and a cellphone but I dont have a 100y+ range that would let me do this.
Ive been trying to ask this question of many youtubers that have the ability but they never do it.
accuracy at range has never been an issue unless you used a piece of pipe as a barrel. but no one will take a chunk of ballistic gel at put it 100y out and shoot it, we know they have guns good enough to do that but wont.
I have guns, ammo and a cellphone but I dont have a 100y+ range that would let me do this.
The Chopping Block did a reduced impact velocity test with a handloaded 62gr Gold Dot, which is probably the best choice among readily available stuff for long-range terminal performance.
There’s at least 3 common defensive loads that will perform properly (terminally) out to a little over 350 yards from a 12.5” barrel. Fusion MSR, Mk252, 70gr Vor-Tx.
Sidneyious
01-11-23, 14:15
The Chopping Block did a reduced impact velocity test with a handloaded 62gr Gold Dot, which is probably the best choice among readily available stuff for long-range terminal performance.
There’s at least 3 common defensive loads that will perform properly (terminally) out to a little over 350 yards from a 12.5” barrel. Fusion MSR, Mk252, 70gr Vor-Tx.
Seen that, wish it was an actual at range test, would love to see the block, hell even with as much that goes on with the ballistic dummy lab stuff I see from Kentucky ballistics I wish he would do more at range stuff even if hes scared to pull the trigger himself.
Seen that, wish it was an actual at range test, would love to see the block, hell even with as much that goes on with the ballistic dummy lab stuff I see from Kentucky ballistics I wish he would do more at range stuff even if hes scared to pull the trigger himself.
Terminal ballistics matter less and less the further you go out in range. Don’t get lost in the minutia. If you go back to 1168’s original reply, notice he was really mainly concerned with external ballistics and maneuverability in structures.
My targets are normally either taller than they are wide, or wider than they are tall, and if I had to broadly generalize, they are ~2x4 moa at distance. I don’t think I’ve ever shot a string of groups with my 12.5” guns. Hit probability of the entire system (user/barrel/ammo/optic/weather/position/range estimate) is much more important to me. When the barrel becomes the limiting factor, it gets retired.
So to summarize, as long as you have reliability and can hit man size targets out to whatever range you deem reasonable for the platform, you don’t care what groups look like at 100m and is basically in the same category as pin gauging gas ports?
So to summarize, as long as you have reliability and can hit man size targets out to whatever range you deem reasonable for the platform, you don’t care what groups look like at 100m and is basically in the same category as pin gauging gas ports?
Pretty much, although my targets are always much smaller than an E-type except when I shoot .mil pop-up quals.
I had a 12.5 K9 barrel, I found it to be over gassed when unsuppressed. Very accurate though, and I really liked the profile. I replaced it with a BA Hanson 12.3 and it is very good unsuppressed, haven't run it suppressed since my can is still in "jail". Gas port on the BA Hanson pinned at .066, never checked the K9 port. If I build another 12.5 upper it'll be with a Triarc, BRT, or BA Hanson barrel.
The K9 gas system length is much longer than a Carbine system so comparing their port sizes isn't going to tell you much.
I think mine measured in around .081 when I put mine together. You can see how it cycles suppressed and not with both 5.56mm and .223 pressure ammo, here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH1as4njUas
More recently since I've come over to work for SOLGW, I tested out my 12.5" gun which has an A5H2 in it, and a HUXWRX Flow 556k on it... and that thing is incredible. It's the softest shooting gun I can ever remember shooting, and I have 3 different 12.5" uppers now (Criterion, Rosco, and SOLGW barreled). Here's a video showing just that:
https://youtube.com/shorts/BaQG9ULv49w?feature=share
The K9 gas system length is much longer than a Carbine system so comparing their port sizes isn't going to tell you much.
I think mine measured in around .081 when I put mine together. You can see how it cycles suppressed and not with both 5.56mm and .223 pressure ammo, here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH1as4njUas
More recently since I've come over to work for SOLGW, I tested out my 12.5" gun which has an A5H2 in it, and a HUXWRX Flow 556k on it... and that thing is incredible. It's the softest shooting gun I can ever remember shooting, and I have 3 different 12.5" uppers now (Criterion, Rosco, and SOLGW barreled). Here's a video showing just that:
https://youtube.com/shorts/BaQG9ULv49w?feature=share
I understand the gas system on the K9 is longer, and comparing port size would mean nothing. I still found it to be over gassed. I had a "budget" 12.5 upper with a Rosco Bloodline 12.5 (Carbine gas, .069 port) that I shot with the K9 barreled upper on the same lower with springco white/H2. Honestly felt the bloodline barrel was slightly softer shooting, and my buddy thought the same without any prompting or knowing one upper from the other. Nothing against Rosco barrels, I really do like them, I just didn't care for the K9.
.081 seems like a huge gas port for a 12.5 patrol
For comparison here are some textbook gas port sizes;
A 11.5 carbine is .069
A 14.5 carbine is .0625
a 14.5 mid is .076
Granted its a patrol length gas system which is 5/8 inches shorter than a mid length system.
It may appear so at first glance, but this is perhaps only one or two sizes larger than we might recommend for mixed use and likely exactly how a company SOLGW would gas the same barrel.
What's the textbook size on an 12.5" MID? That's a closer comparison.
.081 seems like a huge gas port for a 12.5 patrol
For comparison here are some textbook gas port sizes;
A 11.5 carbine is .069
A 14.5 carbine is .0625
a 14.5 mid is .076
Granted its a patrol length gas system which is 5/8 inches shorter than a mid length system.
Bluedreaux
01-14-23, 11:29
So far I've tested 4 Sionics 12.5" barrels. 3 assembled by Sionics as complete uppers and one I assembled using the Sionics barrel and BCG.
I've primarily shot 10 round groups with both Speer 75grain Gold Dot and 75grain American Eagle FMJ. Three barrels shot both rounds within 1" of each other (center of group to center of group). The fourth barrel shot the FMJ 1.75" higher than the Gold Dot, but centered left to right.
The 10 round groups measured 1.6"-2" across all four barrels and both rounds (four total groups with each barrel).
I did further testing with the 1.6" barrel with Gold Dot by firing two 5 round groups on a single target (measuring overall group size and mean radius for each group individually, then doing the same for the 10 round composite). I repeated this again on a fresh target for a total of four 5 round groups.
The 5 round groups measured 1.17, 1.17, 1.29, 1.37 inches.
The two combined 10 round groups measured 1.7 and 1.3 inches.
Trijicon Credo HX 1-6, Geissele 4.5# trigger, bagged on a table, 100 yards, light wind.
So far I've tested 4 Sionics 12.5" barrels. 3 assembled by Sionics as complete uppers and one I assembled using the Sionics barrel and BCG.
I've primarily shot 10 round groups with both Speer 75grain Gold Dot and 75grain American Eagle FMJ. Three barrels shot both rounds within 1" of each other (center of group to center of group). The fourth barrel shot the FMJ 1.75" higher than the Gold Dot, but centered left to right.
The 10 round groups measured 1.6"-2" across all four barrels and both rounds (four total groups with each barrel).
I did further testing with the 1.6" barrel with Gold Dot by firing two 5 round groups on a single target (measuring overall group size and mean radius for each group individually, then doing the same for the 10 round composite). I repeated this again on a fresh target for a total of four 5 round groups.
The 5 round groups measured 1.17, 1.17, 1.29, 1.37 inches.
The two combined 10 round groups measured 1.7 and 1.3 inches.
Trijicon Credo HX 1-6, Geissele 4.5# trigger, bagged on a table, 100 yards, light wind.
What the gas port size on the Sionics 12.5?
Bluedreaux
01-14-23, 13:18
What the gas port size on the Sionics 12.5?
I tested it with drill bits. An .063 started but didn’t drop through. An .059 wouldn’t fit at all.
With an A5H2 the ejection pattern is at 4 o’clock and the recoil impulse is similar enough to my Triarc that I don’t think I could tell the difference in a blind test.
I tested it with drill bits. An .063 started but didn’t drop through. An .059 wouldn’t fit at all.
With an A5H2 the ejection pattern is at 4 o’clock and the recoil impulse is similar enough to my Triarc that I don’t think I could tell the difference in a blind test.
Too bad you didn't have pin gauges.
nightchief
01-16-23, 15:28
For those who care, the Noveske 12.5 I recently purchased has a .070 gas port, measured with pin gauges.
Manufacturers changing their gas ports size seems quite common.
vicious_cb
01-16-23, 20:19
For those who care, the Noveske 12.5 I recently purchased has a .070 gas port, measured with pin gauges.
Is that a carbine or midlength gas?
So my 12.5 Criterion Core upper had issues today. I’ll probably start a separate thread because I’m stumped but towards the end of the shooting (maybe 250ish rounds), and putting it at only the 500ish round mark total, there were failure to feeds from three different mags, two blown primers, and 2-3 rounds stuck in the chamber. The last stuck round had not been fired.
I suck at actually looking at the problem so I just fought through most of the issues, making it harder to remember what actually happened. Lower is far more proven but shouldn’t need a new buffer spring, at least 2/3 of the mags have been flawless, it was suppressed with a KAC QDC until the end with the second blown primer, ammo was MEN 56gr 5.56. I don’t remember the gas port size but posted it on one of these threads, seemed like a reasonable size. Geissele REBCG. I don’t remember what buffer but definitely A5, A5H2 or H3 most likely.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
nightchief
01-16-23, 21:51
Is that a carbine or midlength gas?
Carbine
Send it...
01-16-23, 23:28
I had a 12.5 K9 barrel, I found it to be over gassed when unsuppressed. Very accurate though, and I really liked the profile. I replaced it with a BA Hanson 12.3 and it is very good unsuppressed, haven't run it suppressed since my can is still in "jail". Gas port on the BA Hanson pinned at .066, never checked the K9 port. If I build another 12.5 upper it'll be with a Triarc, BRT, or BA Hanson barrel.
Thank you for the first hand info!
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