View Full Version : How do I retort to this comment...
parishioner
12-26-08, 20:08
Once again, the topic of guns was brought up and once again, my girlfriend and I got into an argument. I usually have a logical explanation for everything she throws at me and she always winds up doing the usual I dont know what to say because Im probably wrong and dont want to admit it so Im just going to say "Whatever" and say "lets just stop talking about this because we have different opinions" response. Anyway, her sister just got back from France because she was studying there this past semester and her argument was that her sister said "I have never felt so safe before walking the streets, guns are not a problem in Europe, yada yada yada." I dont know why but I couldnt find anything to say to this. Can anyone help me?
zippygaloo
12-26-08, 20:20
Does it really matter what she thinks?
OSAC France 2008 Crime & Safety Report (https://www.osac.gov/Reports/report.cfm?contentID=81438).
OSAC Warden Message: France Urges Security Vigilance (https://www.osac.gov/Reports/report.cfm?contentID=94822)
US Department of State Worldwide Caution (http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/pa/pa_1161.html)
Gutshot John
12-26-08, 20:22
Once again, the topic of guns was brought up and once again, my girlfriend and I got into an argument. I usually have a logical explanation for everything she throws at me and she always winds up doing the usual I dont know what to say because Im probably wrong and dont want to admit it so Im just going to say "Whatever" and say "lets just stop talking about this because we have different opinions" response. Anyway, her sister just got back from France because she was studying there this past semester and her argument was that her sister said "I have never felt so safe before walking the streets, guns are not a problem in Europe, yada yada yada." I dont know why but I couldnt find anything to say to this. Can anyone help me?
Wow a whole semester. :rolleyes: You can't argue with that. However I lived in France for a good bit of my life and have family that live there still. I have been in and seen far more street fights there than here. There is also a broad phenomenon called "l'insecurite" or "the insecurity" as violent crime by gangs is on a huge upswing. You may remember the riots not so long ago. People certainly got shot.
If she didn't feel threatened then she didn't go anywhere threatening nor pay attention to the news. I'd suggest Marseille. I never dealt with the hassle of carrying a gun there, but they are certainly legal in France though not in the same way as here. I carried a switchblade, which was entirely legal.
Your girlfriend's sister doesn't know what she's talking about.
parishioner
12-26-08, 20:44
Does it really matter what she thinks?
Acutally......yes. She is the love of my life and I value her. Im planning on being with her for quite some time, and since I have a strong passion for hunting, shooting and firearms in general, can't you see how things would be easier if we were on the same page with this issue?
zippygaloo
12-26-08, 20:52
Suggestions.
1. Change your opinion to suit her and you will no longer argue over this issue.
2. Don't express your opinion and you will no longer argue over this issue.
Solved!
Gutshot John
12-26-08, 20:54
Acutally......yes. She is the love of my life and I value her. Im planning on being with her for quite some time, and since I have a strong passion for hunting, shooting and firearms in general, can't you see how things would be easier if we were on the same page with this issue?
If she's the love of your life she'll accept you for who you are.
In the meantime, there's no point in arguing. Just keep asking questions till she finds the answers on her own.
My wife was the same way. She grew up in an anti household (PK) but now she understands what guns are for.
parishioner
12-26-08, 21:12
This is in no way a deal breaker, as if I dont change we will break up. She totally accepts me. Trust me I try to avoid the topic as much as possible and try not to say anything at all because we all know how it winds up. But sometimes, like tonight, it was on the news and she makes comments that leave me no choice but to interject. Its just really hard for me to keep my mouth closed because I have such a strong opinion about it. Thanks for the help, although I suppose there is no point in starting an argument again. I guess the information on france will just make it harder for me knowing how much more right I am.;) O well. At least I learned something.
Dude,
I've spent a total of 8 years living in Europe, 5 in Germany as a kid and since 2005 I've lived in Italy. The crime problems and violence are there. In Italy we've got problems with some of the local immigrant populations and a variety of criminal elements. In Germany they've got problems with Turks and eastern European criminal elements. No guns does not equal safer. Ask her how much traveling alone at night she did and if she only stayed in the good parts of town. I'd bet she travelled with friends and didn't visit say, the slums of Paris looking for a good club. And if you really need a final nail in the coffin, ask her about the Paris riots and if she'd have felt so safe then... It's easy to feel safe when you're not visiting the country when it's nice and calm.
How many shootings had girlfriend's sister seen personally in the U.S.? If her time in France represents a measure of time, how many of those measures of time have passed in the U.S. in which she didn't witness a gun crime personally? Hard to argue with straight logic.
It is also pretty easy to flip her argument based on the above. If she hasn't actually seen a violent crime here and she didn't actually see one there & guns are supposedly a problem here, why has the ammount of violent crime she has witnessed been the same? By her (the sister's) she should be seeing shootings like. . . . daily. What is that classic phrase, "yesterday 230 million legally owned guns killed nobody in the U.S."
Just about any place you go, be it Vegas, the Bahamas, or Osaka . . . if you stick to the part of the city, city businesses and governments have invested in making tourist friendly; you really will see very little crime. Branson and Entebbe are not different. But you go down the side streets and start nosing around, it won't take too long to find trouble. Usually college kids look to see the sights, follow the perscribed routes & stay in those tourist frindly zones . . . It is only the ones that get drunk and wander down the wrong alley that have problems, same as sailors.
time to mary her or move on I say :)
I can only say from past girlfriends :) that any did not like guns never lasted ?
for the sister ~
get dumped in a bad part of any country you will have things to worry about :)
go to a soccer game and cheer for the other team while sitting in the home section !!!
see how safe you are then !!!!!!
and in some studies they have more crime than the U.S. !!!
oh an pickpockets and other crimes
For violent theft, France recorded 185 incidents per 100,000 people, compared with 145 in the United States. For simple theft, France had 2,588 incidents per 100,000 people, compared with 2,475 in the United States. And car theft was far higher in France, with 507 reported cases per 100,000 compared with 420 in the United States.
just say well move there if you love it so much !!!!
The fact that so many crimes in France now involve firearms -- everything from pistols to machine guns to grenade launchers used in a spectacular armored car heist last year -- raises questions about France's supposedly strict gun control laws compared with what is seen as a much more permissive system in the United States.
I am 43 years old, and the number of adults I've met who can assimilate a reasoned argument and come to the conclusion that "since you put it that way, I guess I've had it all wrong," is almost zero.
That being said, chicks are much more malleable than guys.
Sorry i can't help you; I'm not interested in changing anyone's mind anymore.
I grew up in the Chicago area, and spent some time downtown and on the near north side. I've been all over Manhattan, even lived in Detroit for a few years and went into the city for various events. I live in Indianapolis now and have spent a lot of time downtown, even at night.
I've never felt unsafe in any of those places, nor have I ever been mugged or attacked or anything like that, for precisely the same reasons mentioned above. I stayed in safe areas, avoided back streets, and didn't go looking for trouble.
Now, I have to say I've driven through some neighborhoods where I locked the doors and knew there would be trouble if I was walking around on foot, especially in Detroit.
Here's a good response:
The majority of American violent crime occurs in inner city ghettos. Most of the crime is minority-on-minority. Small towns and suburbs have extremely low violent crime. The parts of major cities that are not ghettos also have much lower violent crime, but it does get worse the closer you get to a ghetto due to a bleed over effect.
As long as you stay away from the problem areas, you are pretty safe. Same goes in any other country. The US media plays up violent crime to the point that it seems like it's everywhere. But if you listen closely, you realize it's almost always in the same bad neighborhoods. Just don't go to those places.
The majority of American violent crime occurs in inner city ghettos. Most of the crime is minority-on-minority. Small towns and suburbs have extremely low violent crime. The parts of major cities that are not ghettos also have much lower violent crime, but it does get worse the closer you get to a ghetto due to a bleed over effect.
As long as you stay away from the problem areas, you are pretty safe. Same goes in any other country. The US media plays up violent crime to the point that it seems like it's everywhere. But if you listen closely, you realize it's almost always in the same bad neighborhoods. Just don't go to those places.
yep, mostly illegal gun use over illegal drugs, usually by convicted felons, hmm... murder is illegal, drugs are illegal. What's the easiest way out, passing more laws to make it look like I do my job.
Ask her sister how many nice criminals she polled to find out whether they preferred fists, knives, guns, or other easily accessible weapons (bricks, bats, tire irons, etc...). Then tell her to shut up and be thankful she did not run into one of the thousands of unregistered firearms, or homemade .22 pistols which many gangs favor. Just because she did not personally see crimes perpetrated with guns doesn't mean it doesn't happen or maybe the garbage magically empties every Thursday night?
My point being crimes will be committed with or without guns regardless of the laws.
You could also tell her about my home town - London. Since the handgun ban violence involving handguns has soared by over 60% and you're more likely to get mugged in London than any other European capital. I'd echo the sentiments of some other posts here as well, just because she "felt safe" doesn't mean she was. Most of us here who carry on a regular basis are far more tuned in to our surroundings that those who don't. I do sympathize with your problem though. My wife comes from a long line of Democrats and when we first started dating I had the same issues. I rationalized things with her in a number of ways:
1. I always kept my cool and just gave her the facts about guns and crime. Much of what the person on the street hears is pure fantasy regurgitated by the "popular media". Put the onus on her to gather facts to back up any anti-gun argument she may have (in my experience they find this kind of hard)
2. If you've had any experience with firearms in a professional capacity - use it as an example. I was a LEO for 13 years and still work with them on a daily basis now. They're just a tool of the trade. The way I put it to the then girlfriend (who is a designer) was that it'd be like me trying to tell her of the shortcomings with Quark.
3. Try to get her involved in shooting somehow. Take her to the range and be the consummate professional instead of the yahoo weekend warrior the antis like to portray. My Mrs wants an MP5 now!
Lastly I think it boils down to respect. Even if she does not understand or agree with your choices, they're still your choices.;)
OldNavyGuy
12-27-08, 07:33
Acutally......yes. She is the love of my life and I value her. Im planning on being with her for quite some time, and since I have a strong passion for hunting, shooting and firearms in general, can't you see how things would be easier if we were on the same page with this issue?
WRONG !! you only "FEEL" she is the love of your life, you apparently are NOT the love of her life or she would compromise and agree with you most of the time.
Im planning on being with her for quite some time
i did that too ! married to the wrong woman for 16 years.., i finally got fed up with the B.S. about my guns, hunting, shooting, reloading, fishing etc., and dumped the witch..., BUT lost many of my most prized guns, i.e., Colt AR-15 first year production, bought in 1965.
my wife, now of 30 years loves guns as much as i do and we often indulge in gun talk, ballistics, calibers best for this or that, the politics of guns...., AND who is the better shot with this gun or that gun..
trust me pal, in the long run you will be very sorry if you really do spend "quite some time" with her.., dump her and look for a "Gun Woman" !!!!
i suggest you tell her to accept you as is or, "hit the road, toad" :D
jman, if you don't mind, how old are you and the girlfriend?
parishioner
12-27-08, 09:16
WRONG !! you only "FEEL" she is the love of your life, you apparently are NOT the love of her life or she would compromise and agree with you most of the time.
i did that too ! married to the wrong woman for 16 years.., i finally got fed up with the B.S. about my guns, hunting, shooting, reloading, fishing etc., and dumped the witch..., BUT lost many of my most prized guns, i.e., Colt AR-15 first year production, bought in 1965.
my wife, now of 30 years loves guns as much as i do and we often indulge in gun talk, ballistics, calibers best for this or that, the politics of guns...., AND who is the better shot with this gun or that gun..
trust me pal, in the long run you will be very sorry if you really do spend "quite some time" with her.., dump her and look for a "Gun Woman" !!!!
i suggest you tell her to accept you as is or, "hit the road, toad" :D
I would like to reiterate that these disputes are not ruining the relationship in any way. It is not the deal breaker whatsoever. We simply got into an agument, there was no yelling, eventually I just said ok and we got over it in a matter of minutes. We even watched a movie after. :) And I don' think that just because she doesnt feel the same way about something it means she doesnt love me. Thats a bit rash, dont you think? Thats like saying two people are only in love if they agree with each other 99% of the time. By the way rob s, we are both 20.
Jay Cunningham
12-27-08, 09:23
we are both 20
Oh, boy...
LegalAlien
12-27-08, 09:34
Acutally......yes. She is the love of my life and I value her. Im planning on being with her for quite some time, and since I have a strong passion for hunting, shooting and firearms in general, can't you see how things would be easier if we were on the same page with this issue?
Heard this from a comedian at the Improv Comedy Club . . . and it's funny, because it is sooooo true:-
'In a marriage/relationship the man can be right, or he can be happy'
parishioner
12-27-08, 09:42
Heard this from a comedian at the Improv Comedy Club . . . and it's funny, because it is sooooo true:-
'In a marriage/relationship the man can be right, or he can be happy'
Yes, I am begining to realize this. If they arent happy, aint nobody happy.
If they arent happy, aint nobody happy.
That's the reason we die earlier than women.................because we can!:D
RogerinTPA
12-27-08, 10:04
Oh, boy...
OMG!:p
parishioner
12-27-08, 10:12
OMG!:p
I seem to be missing something here.
RogerinTPA
12-27-08, 10:23
I seem to be missing something here.
Young love and the perception of it, changes fairly quickly. If it doesn't, then it is a rare thing. No offense jman.
Jay Cunningham
12-27-08, 10:31
Yes, no offense intended; sometimes young love does indeed work out.
I barely even knew what my pee-pee was for when I was 20.
I seem to be missing something here.
They are amused by the fact that you are both 20 years old, and judging from your avatar - probably still in college and not working full time in the real world.
The second part is an assumption, so it's OK if you tell me it's wrong.
Like you, I met my girlfriend/wife when we were young - I was 19 and she was 18 and we were in college. We got engaged a year later and married after another year and we've been together a total of 17 years (15 married). We also have a 5 year old son.
But trust me when I tell you it hasn't been easy. The person you think you are at age 20, and still in school if that's the case, is a lot different than the person you will become once you get out and work for a few years and mature. Interests, hobbies, attitudes, political views, friends - they all change. The things that were most important to you in the past often fade away and new things take over.
I won't presume to tell you what to do. But don't assume her attitudes will eventually change in your favor. She could just as easily become even more anti-gun if your interest in hunting and shooting causes you to spend less time with her. Not only will there be a philosophical difference, but she will be in competition with your guns for attention. And this competition thing will even occur with stuff you do that she likes at first. Basically, you can't win.
While I agree that "young love" can be ephemeral, it's not always so. I met my wife when I was 20 (she was 19). We've been together for more than 17 years.
To answer, the OP's question, How do I retort to this comment? I suggest:
Where's my dinner?
Suggestions.
1. Change your opinion to suit her and you will no longer argue over this issue.
2. Don't express your opinion and you will no longer argue over this issue.
3. Get new girlfriend.
There, fixed it for you.
Give the OP a break. It takes some of us a couple of divorces to learn.
parishioner
12-27-08, 11:15
No offense taken. I have a good thing going for me right now so, Im not going to deny my feelings for her because "young love" is rare and doesnt work out in a lot of cases. If something happens later on down the road and it doesnt work out, Ill deal with it then, but as of now we are very happy together and there is no reason to change and now Im wondering how this thread got to be an examination of my relationship.:eek:
zippygaloo
12-27-08, 11:17
and now Im wondering how this thread got to be an examination of my relationship
I believe you said the following in an earlier post. "... can't you see how things would be easier if we were on the same page with this issue?"
parishioner
12-27-08, 11:32
I believe you said the following in an earlier post. "... can't you see how things would be easier if we were on the same page with this issue?"
Well thats because you asked me if it really matters what she thinks so, I had to explain why it mattered. I originally asked what should I say to her comment. I know she may never change but Im going to at least try help her see things clearly.
Jman, realize you are in a discussion with your gf and her sister, that doesn't apply logic or consistency. The topic of firearms is right up there with religion, politics, abortion, and "pls describe what is normal"!!! As many others have pointed out, the differences between you and your gf on firearms will grow on a exponential curve as your passion for firearms increases. Consider the view from her side; how would you feel if she donates money to the Brady organization, joins forums and chat rooms that identify the best methods for controlling and eventually eliminating firearms, and commits time and energy in defending gun control; how will you feel?? If you have your passion for firearms, you must accept that your gf and her sister may have an equally committed passion for controlling and eliminating firearms.
lol can people change???? At 20 years old, i definitely hope so. This is not an arguement you will win, until a fundamental change occurrs in one side or the other. My wife was passively non-supportive of firearms, but that drastically changed when the biological father of foster children in our house, showed up at the door, completely drunk, demanding his sons back. She managed to keep him outside the house, but her view on firearms has changed, and she now carries. It could have went the other way, if an accidental discharge had happened.
bottom line: enjoy the companionship of your gf, and enjoy life. don't try to change her, just accept her as is. If you can do that and enjoy the values that are dear to you, then your relationship may grow and survive. An added joker in the deck is her sister, who may be actively pulling her in a different direction.
good luck
parishioner
12-27-08, 11:55
bottom line: enjoy the companionship of your gf, and enjoy life. don't try to change her, just accept her as is. If you can do that and enjoy the values that are dear to you, then your relationship may grow and survive. An added joker in the deck is her sister, who may be actively pulling her in a different direction.
good luck
Thanks. Thats the best advice I have heard all day. The more I think about it the more it becomes clear that I shouldnt force my ideals on her. Ill have mine and she can have hers. Im done.
Acutally......yes. She is the love of my life and I value her. Im planning on being with her for quite some time, and since I have a strong passion for hunting, shooting and firearms in general, can't you see how things would be easier if we were on the same page with this issue?
You CANNOT make someone what you want them to be.
I married someone the second time, and thought I could CHANGE HER MIND, now I can't for the life of me figure out "What The Hell I Was Thinking".
It will take a very strong love, for a relationship of not being on the same page or never agreeing, to survive. Been there tried to do that, (TWICE) and it's not working out all that well. Especially when they get their family and friends, and gang up on you. If you can't just let that roll off, you may not have a very happy life together.
But that doesn't mean it wouldn't work for you. Just how this strong willed old fart is.
GOOD LUCK IN YOUR ENDEAVORS IN LIFE, IT CAN BE TOO SHORT TO WASTE.
I barely even knew what my pee-pee was for when I was 20.
Sorry, just had to see that up there again!;)
Google stabbings in England. I believe you will see that it is not the "tool" it is the criminal.
Outlander Systems
12-27-08, 12:57
I lucked out. When my fiance' and I were in the courtship phase, I found out her email address was "GlockShooter26". The beauty was that we never before discussed guns prior to that.
I'm DEFINITELY marrying this one!
Best of luck to the OP. Sometimes it takes something radical to shake people's hard-headedness of opinion.
Some friends of my fiance's and mine are very, VERY left-leaning. A friend of theirs was raped by a 12 and 15 year old, in her house, in a very upscale neighborhood in Atlanta.
They've since begun singing a different song, and went out and bought two Glocks.
Sometimes all the kumbaya, hold-hands, happyland fantasy horseshit doesn't work when something hits close to home.
Sometimes all the kumbaya, hold-hands, happyland fantasy horseshit doesn't work when something hits close to home.
I JUST COULDN'T AGREE MORE!!!!!!
Sorry to get off you topic, OP.
zippygaloo
12-27-08, 13:28
...The more I think about it the more it becomes clear that I shouldnt force my ideals on her. Ill have mine and she can have hers. Im done.
Do not be unequally yoked.
Once again, the topic of guns was brought up and once again, my girlfriend and I got into an argument. I usually have a logical explanation for everything she throws at me and she always winds up doing the usual I dont know what to say because Im probably wrong and dont want to admit it so Im just going to say "Whatever" and say "lets just stop talking about this because we have different opinions" response. Anyway, her sister just got back from France because she was studying there this past semester and her argument was that her sister said "I have never felt so safe before walking the streets, guns are not a problem in Europe, yada yada yada." I dont know why but I couldnt find anything to say to this. Can anyone help me?
I bet her sister didn't walk around in any of the Algerian ghettos on the outskirts of Paris... Remember the riots they had a couple of years ago?
OldNavyGuy
12-28-08, 08:29
"we are both 20."
aaaah haaaa !!
there is the problem, you both are barely out of diapers, trying to talk like adults but acting like 13 y.o.'s
come back in about two or three more years and tell us about the real true gem you found that is into guns, hunting, shooting and collecting as much as yourself.
"we are both 20."
aaaah haaaa !!
there is the problem, you both are barely out of diapers, trying to talk like adults but acting like 13 y.o.'s
come back in about two or three more years and tell us about the real true gem you found that is into guns, hunting, shooting and collecting as much as yourself.
Not every 20 year old is an embryo. I was in charge of a platoon at that age. Some mature faster than others and I think that was a pretty demeaning comment.
I would like to reiterate that these disputes are not ruining the relationship in any way. It is not the deal breaker whatsoever. We simply got into an agument, there was no yelling, eventually I just said ok and we got over it in a matter of minutes. We even watched a movie after. :) And I don' think that just because she doesnt feel the same way about something it means she doesnt love me. Thats a bit rash, dont you think? Thats like saying two people are only in love if they agree with each other 99% of the time. By the way rob s, we are both 20.
The reason you're getting the responses you're getting is because most of us have already been down that path and know where it ends up. and we've all been saying the exact same things you are, and we've all had many, many friends in the same boat as well.
I'm not going to tell her you're going to have to ditch her. I'll just tell you what I've seen.
I have a friend, he was my roommate in college actually. He moved to Chicago 10 years ago and left his guns with me while he was there. He met a girl. They fell in "love". She disliked guns, but he never pressed the issue because they lived in Chicago and it didn't matter anyway since he couldn't have them. Just after they got married they moved to Texas. Hell yeah! Now he can have his guns, right? Umm, no. Then they had a kid. Even bigger no. Today those guns of his are still sitting in my safe. AFAIK he is quite happy, but he has no guns.
I had an ex. I moved to SE Florida out of college and met her almost immediately. We bought a house together, did the whole cutesy thing, etc. She knew I had guns and liked to shoot and that I had a concealed carry permit. Except that once we bought the house and were living together, she started objecting to the carrying with things like "why do you need that". Then it was loud noises anytime I wanted to go to the range, or even so much as looked in the safe. Two years later she moved on, I took up IDPA, and am certain that choosing guns over her was the right choice.
I have a current girlfriend. She found out that I carry almost right off the bat. "Cool", she said, "it makes me feel safe knowing you can protect me". Almost 4 years later I built my last AR on her kitchen counter, we've bought her boy a 10/22 for his last birthday, I have a man/gun room in the house, and she just got done taking her first handgun course last month. This one is the keeper.
FWIW, this isn't about guns. But nobody is going to change your mind either. No matter how much you protest that this "really isn't a big deal", we all know better from "been there, done that" experience. But it's your life either way. Mark my words though, you'll either be a eunuch with her, or a man without her. Matters not to me, but you may find yourself waking up in 20 years outside trimming the hedges wearing boat shoes, knee socks, a "world's best dad" hat, thigh-length short pants, and a braided belt, and wondering "how the hell did I wind up HERE".
parishioner
12-28-08, 11:04
Thank you all. I appreciate everyones concern. After reading all the posts and taking them into consideration, it seems as though the odds are really stacked against us making it. There is only a small glimmer of hope that we will survive due to our different stances on gun related issues. Despite these great barriers we will face down the road, I am going to attempt to hold on to that small glimmer of hope becuase it is all I apparently have and I am not ready to throw in the towel.
BWYoda, thanks for supporting me, even though I am only 20.
OldNavyGuy, unless you have a strong admiration for the Old Navy line of clothing, I'm going to assume that you are old and were in the Navy. If this is the case, you are little immature for being old. Im glad you find my age amusing.
And lastly, Im sorry but I really don't want to discuss this any further than it has already gone. Again, thank you everyone and have a great day. Now, I have to hope the Saints don't upset me today.
Acutally......yes. She is the love of my life and I value her. Im planning on being with her for quite some time, and since I have a strong passion for hunting, shooting and firearms in general, can't you see how things would be easier if we were on the same page with this issue?
Its great that you are so concerned about her opinions...just remember this should be a two way street and she should have the same concerns about those things that are important to you. She should be just as willing to make compromises and accept you for who you are......
Jay Cunningham
12-28-08, 11:14
This thread has run it's course - good luck jman4427.
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