View Full Version : Researching Battle Of Mogadishu
Hi,
I recently discovered a good friend who has since passed was a Ranger during Battle Of Mogadishu. I believe a staff sergeant in charge of the crew on one of the Blackhawks. I found one reference that does indeed state he "was the crew chief on Super 63" But Super 63 was Command and Control and not sure if they would have had a Ranger squad on board....
I imagine Command and Control BH's would be specially designed with more advanced communications and larger fuel tanks etc so not like it would have played other roles...but maybe....
I've read Bowden's book and lots of online articles but no further information.
Oddly none of our mutual friends are aware of his service and I'd like to learn more as a way to honor him.
Any suggestions for more fact based information about the actual players in the battle as opposed to books?
Thanks!
If he was a crew chief, he was 160th, not B 3/75. There were/are no aircrew organic to 75rr. PM me his name, and I’ll poke around. That was before my time, so no promises. 160th has a memorial wall, so that may be something the internet has, also.
https://www.amazon.com/Day-Rangers-Battle-Mogadishu-Years/dp/1472824253
https://www.amazon.com/Battle-Mogadishu-Firsthand-Accounts-Ranger/dp/0345459660/ref=pd_bxgy_vft_none_sccl_1/133-8538267-8468601?pd_rd_w=oKVY7&content-id=amzn1.sym.7f0cf323-50c6-49e3-b3f9-63546bb79c92&pf_rd_p=7f0cf323-50c6-49e3-b3f9-63546bb79c92&pf_rd_r=W5V5KBQ2CDRNEX2G7WSK&pd_rd_wg=A7yz5&pd_rd_r=b2008fad-7512-4e4e-b928-0f1a72c0e0a1&pd_rd_i=0345459660&psc=1
Hi,
I recently discovered a good friend who has since passed was a Ranger during Battle Of Mogadishu. I believe a staff sergeant in charge of the crew on one of the Blackhawks. I found one reference that does indeed state he "was the crew chief on Super 63" But Super 63 was Command and Control and not sure if they would have had a Ranger squad on board....
I imagine Command and Control BH's would be specially designed with more advanced communications and larger fuel tanks etc so not like it would have played other roles...but maybe....
I've read Bowden's book and lots of online articles but no further information.
Oddly none of our mutual friends are aware of his service and I'd like to learn more as a way to honor him.
Any suggestions for more fact based information about the actual players in the battle as opposed to books?
Thanks!
As was mentioned he would have been a member of the 160 SOAR. The "crew chief" is the individual assigned to a specific aircraft and is responsible for accomplishing the daily preventative maintenance tasks as well as coordinating maintenance actions. He also would fly with the aircraft (in the case of the UH-60) and function as one of the door gunners. He is not in charge of the crew...the individual "in charge" of the crew would be the Pilot in Command.
Maybe reach out to the Airborne and Special Operations Museum near Bragg? I wouldn't be surprised if they often field similar questions.
Also relevant here, the difference between a Scroll Ranger and Ranger Tab.
The scroll is the unit patch for the 75th Ranger Regiment.
It sounds like your friend was a crew chief in the 160th, who also had a Ranger Tab from completing Ranger school. Lots of people not in the “Rangers” unit go to Ranger school and earn a tab.
If this is correct it would be a bit misleading to call him a ranger in the battle.
Also relevant here, the difference between a Scroll Ranger and Ranger Tab.
The scroll is the unit patch for the 75th Ranger Regiment.
It sounds like your friend was a crew chief in the 160th, who also had a Ranger Tab from completing Ranger school. Lots of people not in the “Rangers” unit go to Ranger school and earn a tab.
If this is correct it would be a bit misleading to call him a ranger in the battle.
Yes, this.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-21-23, 08:41
Reach out to OH58D here on M4C. Don't know if he is active, but I bet he knows something and can point you in the right direction.
Sorry for your loss.
Reach out to OH58D here on M4C. Don't know if he is active, but I bet he knows something and can point you in the right direction.
Sorry for your loss.
Thats a good point. I believe he said he was in Mog for Gothic Serpent.
Thats a good point. I believe he said he was in Mog for Gothic Serpent.
He was, he was apart of the S2 section for that mission if my memory serves me right.
Also relevant here, the difference between a Scroll Ranger and Ranger Tab.
The scroll is the unit patch for the 75th Ranger Regiment.
It sounds like your friend was a crew chief in the 160th, who also had a Ranger Tab from completing Ranger school. Lots of people not in the “Rangers” unit go to Ranger school and earn a tab.
If this is correct it would be a bit misleading to call him a ranger in the battle.
That throws a LOT of people off.
Averageman
01-21-23, 16:28
That throws a LOT of people off.
I went to PLDC with a guy who had a scroll Ranger on both arms until he came on orders for Germany.
He was not a happy camper at PLDC and I'm pretty sure he hated Mech Infantry duty in Germany.
He had pictures of his Harley inside his barracks room in his old duty station.
I went to PLDC with a guy who had a scroll Ranger on both arms until he came on orders for Germany.
He was not a happy camper at PLDC and I'm pretty sure he hated Mech Infantry duty in Germany.
He had pictures of his Harley inside his barracks room in his old duty station.
Bad news; Rangers don’t come down on orders. What year was that?
That throws a LOT of people off.
Understandably, so my intent was to be informative. I hope it didn’t come off as an accusation.
Understandably, so my intent was to be informative. I hope it didn’t come off as an accusation.
Just so we are clear, I was 100% in agreement. I know a lot of people with ranger tabs that aren't rangers.
I believe the 160th started as a Task Force and then later became an Aviation Regiment.
Just so we are clear, I was 100% in agreement. I know a lot of people with ranger tabs that aren't rangers.
My first duty station was Hunter AAF, so I knew a bunch of Rangers that were only scrolls.
Averageman
01-22-23, 03:43
Bad news; Rangers don’t come down on orders. What year was that?
Shortly after Grenada, so 84-85?
I have no idea why he was there or how he got assigned, but he didn't appear happy about it.
There was a really big schools push at the time and wouldn't you know it our PLDC was closed to refurbish the building. I can't even remember the Kaserne we ended up going to, but pretty much E-5's from all over Germany were there.
Thanks all!
I have a lot more information to go on now.
As I recall last I saw him was between 1987-1990 and he was a "Ranger" then. I didn't know enough about fine details to question.
Last I saw him I recall Class A Dress greens with a shoulder cord. Some "fruit salad" but I can't recall specifics. I want to say an jump wings.... Been too long but Joe was a man I had admired from the moment we met. Always inspiring a born leader.
BTW if there's a reason I shouldn't be digging into his service please let me know. My intentions are honorable and I've just tired of when running into old friends the discussion speaks of his end instead of his service. I also want to make sure I get it right too!
Thanks!
My first duty station was Hunter AAF, so I knew a bunch of Rangers that were only scrolls.
Interesting that a Ranger may not be "tabbed" and that a soldier with a Ranger tab may not be a Ranger.
I assume everyone in a Ranger Bn wears the scroll/DIU - admin, medics, etc?
Back (way back) when Ranger school was open to more applicants, we had NCOs who were tabbed and I remember them as especially solid leaders.
Andy
Interesting that a Ranger may not be "tabbed" and that a soldier with a Ranger tab may not be a Ranger.
I assume everyone in a Ranger Bn wears the scroll/DIU - admin, medics, etc?
Back (way back) when Ranger school was open to more applicants, we had NCOs who were tabbed and I remember them as especially solid leaders.
Andy
It is my understanding that a non-tabbed ranger in Ranger Bttn has a ceiling on promotability and leadership positions; only having the tab can you advance.
Support do wear the scroll. I do some work with the medic students, they have the scroll.
I declined a chance to go to ranger school, opting for a different school instead, wish I had gone (I didn't regret going to the school I did go to, though).
1168 is obviously the SME here so he may correct me but the following is currently true from what I know.
1. Ranger School is just that, a school, just like Airborne. Graduating from it gives you the Ranger tab. These people are Ranger qualified.
2. 75th Ranger Regiment is a unit. It has its own selection process (RASP, formerly RIP many years ago). The unit patch is the scroll. Being a part of 75th is the difference of being a Ranger vs Ranger qualified.
3. There are untabbed guys with scrolls. Typically these are junior guys, at the height of the wars, they’d go through RASP and deploy before getting a chance to go to school. At some point (I don’t know what that point is), if they don’t have a tab, they don’t stay in Regiment.
4. Regiment used to be infantry only. Years ago, they opened it up to a number of different MOS. One area that is very different from 1st SFC(A) is that they’re all Rangers. The support MOS go through RASP just like infantry. I think it’s the same actual RASP, with the only difference in selections for rank and age, not MOS. I very well may be wrong here. My best friend was a Ranger and I’ve worked closely with several and they still won’t really talk about the process. But from both the 11 series and support MOS, it seems that 75th does a fantastic job of being a unified unit. The infantry guy is a Ranger just like the cook is a Ranger and from what I’ve heard from many, they all love that. 1st SFC(A) is where you see a bigger wedge between SF and SOF support.
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Interesting that a Ranger may not be "tabbed" and that a soldier with a Ranger tab may not be a Ranger.
I assume everyone in a Ranger Bn wears the scroll/DIU - admin, medics, etc?
The scroll is a unit patch, everyone wears it.
I don’t remember if it’s mostly E3 or E4 when they went to Ranger school but no NCO’s without the Tab.
1168 is obviously the SME here so he may correct me but the following is currently true from what I know.
1. Ranger School is just that, a school, just like Airborne. Graduating from it gives you the Ranger tab. These people are Ranger qualified.
2. 75th Ranger Regiment is a unit. It has its own selection process (RASP, formerly RIP many years ago). The unit patch is the scroll. Being a part of 75th is the difference of being a Ranger vs Ranger qualified.
3. There are untabbed guys with scrolls. Typically these are junior guys, at the height of the wars, they’d go through RASP and deploy before getting a chance to go to school. At some point (I don’t know what that point is), if they don’t have a tab, they don’t stay in Regiment.
4. Regiment used to be infantry only. Years ago, they opened it up to a number of different MOS. One area that is very different from 1st SFC(A) is that they’re all Rangers. The support MOS go through RASP just like infantry. I think it’s the same actual RASP, with the only difference in selections for rank and age, not MOS. I very well may be wrong here. My best friend was a Ranger and I’ve worked closely with several and they still won’t really talk about the process. But from both the 11 series and support MOS, it seems that 75th does a fantastic job of being a unified unit. The infantry guy is a Ranger just like the cook is a Ranger and from what I’ve heard from many, they all love that. 1st SFC(A) is where you see a bigger wedge between SF and SOF support.
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That follows what I've understood. There is also some similar confusion with Special Forces tabs. I guess just because you go to SF school and get the tab doesn't mean you are automatically assigned to a group. There is also some crap with shoulder patches. If you aren't wearing a special forces arrowhead with your SF tab, you aren't special forces, you just went to that school.
Then there is the unit patch on the other shoulder and your MOS collar insignia that factor into it. You can be a 11B with a SF tab but that doesn't make you a 18B. But quite often the 11B who goes to SF school and gets the tab is looking to become a 18B if they can.
Hope I didn't get any of that wrong. I used to be pretty good at reading uniforms and understanding who is who.
Navy shit is the worst, I can never keep their stuff straight. I always think commanders are higher than captains. And the guy with the captain bars? He's actually a Lieutenant. And I keep hearing there is some group within NSW who have tridents but aren't part of any team.
That follows what I've understood. There is also some similar confusion with Special Forces tabs. I guess just because you go to SF school and get the tab doesn't mean you are automatically assigned to a group. There is also some crap with shoulder patches. If you aren't wearing a special forces arrowhead with your SF tab, you aren't special forces, you just went to that school.
Then there is the unit patch on the other shoulder and your MOS collar insignia that factor into it. You can be a 11B with a SF tab but that doesn't make you a 18B. But quite often the 11B who goes to SF school and gets the tab is looking to become a 18B if they can.
Hope I didn't get any of that wrong. I used to be pretty good at reading uniforms and understanding who is who.
Navy shit is the worst, I can never keep their stuff straight. I always think commanders are higher than captains. And the guy with the captain bars? He's actually a Lieutenant. And I keep hearing there is some group within NSW who have tridents but aren't part of any team.
The Q course is MOS producing, so if someone graduates from it, they do become an 18 series. The only exception that I know of is foreign students but they still earn the GB. There are plenty of GBs working outside of Group but as far as I know, they all start at one of the Groups following the pipeline.
The patch thing is referring to non-18s. SF has tons of support assigned to every Group, so plenty of people wear the arrowhead patch and airborne tab but only the GBs wear the long tab as well. GBs working outside of Group won’t be wearing the arrowhead unit patch so the tab may be the only way to tell unless you see the actual beret. 18s can wear their berets regardless of current unit whereas Rangers are only authorized to wear the tan beret if they’re currently assigned to 75th or a USASOC unit. There’s no uniform designation for the different 18 series MOS.
Again, we have a different forum member that can set me straight on anything I messed up here but I know most of that is accurate as of the past few years.
Navy is insane. My dad was in for decades and it’s still almost entirely foreign to me.
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Back (way back) when Ranger school was open to more applicants, we had NCOs who were tabbed and I remember them as especially solid leaders.
Andy
Well, it IS a leadership school, after all. Rangers view it as another BLC (PNCOC/PLDC/WLC), but with suck. For combat MOS Rangers, you can’t make it past SPC4 without a Tab, at which point most GWOT era Rangers will have two Scrolls already. This used to be true of all members of 75rr, including the cooks, which would sometimes get used as drivers or machine gunners, no joke. I think that that ceiling changed after E Co was stood up, although there were limited exceptions before that. For example, we had an armorer that broke both his femurs jumping into Afghanistan. He had a perm profile preventing Ranger School attendance. He was a salty E-4 for several years before getting an ETP, and then rapidly pushed to 6.
Wake is mostly right, except for the only Infantry part. 75rr has always had a limited number of combat support and service support folks, such as forward observers, medics, cooks, mechanics, and ammo dudes (who were often 11b retreads). Combat support are attached or organic to companies and platoons. Service support used to be in HHC; I believe they are all in E Co now, much to the disappointment of the cooks and mechanics at the time. When E Co stood up a lot of things surrounding the recruitment, uniforms, training, and promotion for service support personnel changed, and I’ve not kept up with it. Its still a very small percentage of 75rr, and there are no aircrew organic.
Ranger School is not affiliated in any way with 75rr, no matter how many fake Scrolls they hang in their DFACs. Cadre there are allowed to wear tan berets by the grace of the 75rr CO.
75rr, on the other hand, is a straight up gang. We populate the majority of “that” SMU, and much of JSOC and USSOCOM. But nobody forgets where they came from, and when they arrive, its usually obvious. I left 75rr to work on another compound in 2009, where I stayed for the remainder of my active duty career, thus I still identify as a Ranger.
Sorry for the ramble.
The Q course is MOS producing, so if someone graduates from it, they do become an 18 series. The only exception that I know of is foreign students but they still earn the GB. There are plenty of GBs working outside of Group but as far as I know, they all start at one of the Groups following the pipeline.
The patch thing is referring to non-18s. SF has tons of support assigned to every Group, so plenty of people wear the arrowhead patch and airborne tab but only the GBs wear the long tab as well. GBs working outside of Group won’t be wearing the arrowhead unit patch so the tab may be the only way to tell unless you see the actual beret. 18s can wear their berets regardless of current unit whereas Rangers are only authorized to wear the tan beret if they’re currently assigned to 75th or a USASOC unit. There’s no uniform designation for the different 18 series MOS.
Again, we have a different forum member that can set me straight on anything I messed up here but I know most of that is accurate as of the past few years.
Navy is insane. My dad was in for decades and it’s still almost entirely foreign to me.
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RASP is not MOS producing, but in the time of Kurilla, it became ASI producing. That ASI is “U”. The goal at the time was for it to eventually become MOS producing, so that we don’t have to compete with other 11Bs for promotions and such. Especially with the new NCOERs.
The tan beret can also be worn in JSOC and USSOCOM, provided you arrive there from 75rr in good standing.
And yes, the Navy is freaking insane.
Ranger School is not affiliated in any way with 75rr, no matter how many fake Scrolls they hang in their DFACs. Cadre there are allowed to wear tan berets by the grace of the 75rr CO.
That I did not know. I always though a Ranger tab meant you passed the same qualifications as 75 Regiment. I thought they are all Rangers and 75 was sort of their "teir 1" within the group just like the old Team Six was the CT specialists of Navy Special Warfare.
Also what is DFAC? I assume you aren't talking about a drone command center. Or are their drone operators who actual have Ranger tabs?
That follows what I've understood. There is also some similar confusion with Special Forces tabs. I guess just because you go to SF school and get the tab doesn't mean you are automatically assigned to a group. There is also some crap with shoulder patches. If you aren't wearing a special forces arrowhead with your SF tab, you aren't special forces, you just went to that school.
Then there is the unit patch on the other shoulder and your MOS collar insignia that factor into it. You can be a 11B with a SF tab but that doesn't make you a 18B. But quite often the 11B who goes to SF school and gets the tab is looking to become a 18B if they can.
Hope I didn't get any of that wrong. I used to be pretty good at reading uniforms and understanding who is who.
Navy shit is the worst, I can never keep their stuff straight. I always think commanders are higher than captains. And the guy with the captain bars? He's actually a Lieutenant. And I keep hearing there is some group within NSW who have tridents but aren't part of any team.
If you get the SF tab, you are not automatically signed to group (an ODA). But you will be, sooner rather than later. Almost everyone who passes the Q/tabbed gets on a team pretty quick, otherwise they've just wasted a crap load of money training you. Everyone assigned to SF gets the arrowhead, but only MOS-producing Q gets the tab. If you are SF qualified but work outside of SF, you wear the tab, but not the arrowhead.
Interesting note about infantry / 11B (or other MOS), most of the 18Ds are not prior medical, most are prior infantry. Go figure, but that's the way it is. Your MOS going into SF is not always relevant on what you come out with. I imagine why most 11B's want 18B is because it is the fastest and easiest MOS course.
As for the Navy, so much has changed with NSW, who knows anymore. I was in for 17 years (13ish assigned to the Marines), and Navy special warfare has changed a lot. And yes, our rank structure, enlisted end officer, confuses everyone. Almost like you planned it that way.
DFAC is Dining FACility (mess hall), correct?
Andy
.
Interesting note about infantry / 11B (or other MOS), most of the 18Ds are not prior medical, most are prior infantry. Go figure, but that's the way it is. Your MOS going into SF is not always relevant on what you come out with.
Infantry dudes usually make good medics. Going the other direction, not so much. Every aspect of their behavior and gear setup tends to stand out. There are outliers, of course.
Note: none of what I’ve been saying is to disparage the achievements of those with Tabs. If you want to identify the studliest dudes in a conventional Rifle Company, look for the dudes with Tabs.
DFAC=cafeteria
Cafeteria......... LOLOLOLOL
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/attachments/a245492c-61eb-4422-9abf-4cd4b63ebd69-jpeg.8053919/
Infantry dudes usually make good medics. Going the other direction, not so much. Every aspect of their behavior and gear setup tends to stand out. There are outliers, of course.
This has been my experience also. The only exception is the new medics that never see MEDDAC or support units. The ones that go straight from AIT to anything other then an Infantry unit are usually ruined.
I my class only about 20% of the potential 18Ds were prior medics. They did struggle some and needed help from the more experienced medics.
As far as people having the MOS’ and transferring out.
I never served but I seemed to understand it’s more difficult for officers to stay in these units their entire career due to just number of slots and it seems mostly enlisted oriented.
That’s just my perception. I think someone asked above why someone would transfer out and from what I understand an ODA Captain’s only there about 2-3 years then Major and there’s just only so many Majors in SF.
I’ve listened to podcasts and it seemed that was a theme among officers, but again I never served.
God Bless,
Brandon
Infantry dudes usually make good medics....
This has been my experience also. The only exception is the new medics that never see MEDDAC or support units. The ones that go straight from AIT to anything other then an Infantry unit are usually ruined.
I my class only about 20% of the potential 18Ds were prior medics. They did struggle some and needed help from the more experienced medics.
I have a good friend, senior 18D on a 3rd group ODA, he was prior service (Marine infantry, scout/sniper), did his enlistment, then joined the army, did a tour with Big Army, went to the Q intended to be a Bravo. His junior delta was a mortarman with the 82nd. "Needs of special forces" and all.
As a point of trivia, only because I find it interesting, the best Delta candidates as far as (in SOCM) performance and grades, are Navy corpsman* (going to recon or Raiders). But SFMS sees a flatter bell curve among all students, UNLESS any of the SFMS students worked in a specific area prior (i.e., was a lab tech, or vet tech, or a radiology tech), then off course in that block of instruction they excel.
The AF (PJs) and Navy NSW do their own thing elsewhere.
*Edited to add, my recon experience predates the current pipeline and SOCM, so I did not have that experience. I'm old.
I have a good friend, senior 18D on a 3rd group ODA, he was prior service (Marine infantry, scout/sniper), did his enlistment, then joined the army, did a tour with Big Army, went to the Q intended to be a Bravo. His junior delta was a mortarman with the 82nd. "Needs of special forces" and all.
As a point of trivia, only because I find it interesting, the best Delta candidates as far as (in SOCM) performance and grades, are Navy corpsman* (going to recon or Raiders). But SFMS sees a flatter bell curve among all students, UNLESS any of the SFMS students worked in a specific area prior (i.e., was a lab tech, or vet tech, or a radiology tech), then off course in that block of instruction they excel.
The AF (PJs) and Navy NSW do their own thing elsewhere.
*Edited to add, my recon experience predates the current pipeline and SOCM, so I did not have that experience. I'm old.
Corpsmen that grew up with Marine grunts are top notch. The culture will not allow them to be weak, generally.
Corpsmen that grew up with Marine grunts are top notch. The culture will not allow them to be weak, generally.
The Corpsmen are awesome. Those that elect Marine reg usually take it to a whole nother level.
On the Navy ranks I can do just fine. It's the cats that expect me to sus the rate structure that f me up. If you want me to call you Bosun 2nd or Machinist 3rd you need to carry a freakin sign.
The Corpsmen are awesome. Those that elect Marine reg usually take it to a whole nother level.
On the Navy ranks I can do just fine. It's the cats that expect me to sus the rate structure that f me up. If you want me to call you Bosun 2nd or Machinist 3rd you need to carry a freakin sign.
Even in the navy we don't know what most of the rates are. Just "petty officer" Jones, and that works.
This has been my experience also. The only exception is the new medics that never see MEDDAC or support units. The ones that go straight from AIT to anything other then an Infantry unit are usually ruined.
For sure. An IBCT support battalion has an entire medical company. The medics in that company that came from line units were almost always the best medics and NCOs. But that’s true of most things. The further you drift from the line, the worse it gets in a lot of cases.
As far as people having the MOS’ and transferring out.
I never served but I seemed to understand it’s more difficult for officers to stay in these units their entire career due to just number of slots and it seems mostly enlisted oriented.
That’s just my perception. I think someone asked above why someone would transfer out and from what I understand an ODA Captain’s only there about 2-3 years then Major and there’s just only so many Majors in SF.
I’ve listened to podcasts and it seemed that was a theme among officers, but again I never served.
God Bless,
Brandon
Officers are generally expected to be, well, general. Meaning wide area of experience. Because of that, the Army tends to move them into a different position every 12 months, with some exceptions. This is part of why you’ll almost never see an officer that’s looked at as an SME in many of the actual tasks. Leadership, staff systems, building and facilitating teams, etc, yes (in theory…), but most officers won’t outpace an NCO or CWO on any of their given MOS/branch tasks. And they probably shouldn’t in most cases.
That also means that they rotate in and out of units. In SOF, they tend to go to school, start big Army, go to SOF, promote, go back to school, back to big Army, back to SOF, etc. There’s a few stated reasons behind this to include the above one but that’s just how it goes. Then you have the narrowing of slots. At my last unit, there was something like seven or so slots for my branch and rank. At the next rank, there’s three. 18As run into these problems but a lot of them also just get burnt on the idea of not having more team time. That’s what most of the guys are signing up for but a lot of them haven’t connected the dots that they may spend more time in the pipeline than on a team. That kind of sucks. SFC has been hemorrhaging senior 18A CPT for some time and have tried a few methods to retain more with some success. But it’s just the truth of the matter that a lot of officers don’t understand how much of the career is staff time and not branch/MOS work or true leadership positions.
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I have a good friend, senior 18D on a 3rd group ODA, he was prior service (Marine infantry, scout/sniper), did his enlistment, then joined the army, did a tour with Big Army, went to the Q intended to be a Bravo. His junior delta was a mortarman with the 82nd. "Needs of special forces" and all.
As a point of trivia, only because I find it interesting, the best Delta candidates as far as (in SOCM) performance and grades, are Navy corpsman* (going to recon or Raiders). But SFMS sees a flatter bell curve among all students, UNLESS any of the SFMS students worked in a specific area prior (i.e., was a lab tech, or vet tech, or a radiology tech), then off course in that block of instruction they excel.
The AF (PJs) and Navy NSW do their own thing elsewhere.
*Edited to add, my recon experience predates the current pipeline and SOCM, so I did not have that experience. I'm old.
I agree with your statement about the Navy. That is exactly what I was saying about those of us that were prior Medics. In my SOCM class the top 4 people that graduated were the three of us that were prior Medics and one Corps man that was a SEAL.
DFAC=cafeteria
Oh duh. I was making it harder.
If you get the SF tab, you are not automatically signed to group (an ODA). But you will be, sooner rather than later. Almost everyone who passes the Q/tabbed gets on a team pretty quick, otherwise they've just wasted a crap load of money training you. Everyone assigned to SF gets the arrowhead, but only MOS-producing Q gets the tab. If you are SF qualified but work outside of SF, you wear the tab, but not the arrowhead.
Interesting note about infantry / 11B (or other MOS), most of the 18Ds are not prior medical, most are prior infantry. Go figure, but that's the way it is. Your MOS going into SF is not always relevant on what you come out with. I imagine why most 11B's want 18B is because it is the fastest and easiest MOS course.
As for the Navy, so much has changed with NSW, who knows anymore. I was in for 17 years (13ish assigned to the Marines), and Navy special warfare has changed a lot. And yes, our rank structure, enlisted end officer, confuses everyone. Almost like you planned it that way.
That is what I was trying to remember. I knew it was either "SF tab doesn't always mean group" or "SF arrowhead doesn't always mean group." It's a fascinating subject but hard to keep all the rules straight.
Back in 2005 my platoon was at Baghdad for some mission I dont remember. We were walking around looking for a PX and happen to walk by a Navy unit there. I see a guy coming out of a tent and thought "that's a young Colonel" and gave him a salute. Guy yells at us "Im a ****ing E4, why do you guys always salute me!" Turns out the Navy E4 insignia is very similar to Army O-5 rank.
Back in 2005 my platoon was at Baghdad for some mission I dont remember. We were walking around looking for a PX and happen to walk by a Navy unit there. I see a guy coming out of a tent and thought "that's a young Colonel" and gave him a salute. Guy yells at us "Im a ****ing E4, why do you guys always salute me!" Turns out the Navy E4 insignia is very similar to Army O-5 rank.
The OCP rank doesn’t help either, I can’t remember the number of times i would get saluted as a SFC and then 1SG because people thought I was an officer. Heck, I once saluted a specialist because his rank blended in with the camo and it looked more like Major rank. Didn’t help that he was an older dude.
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