View Full Version : What's up with the price of Colt LE6921CR upper halves
I've noticed that complete Colt M4 upper halves (LE6921CR) are available for $465 or a little more from various retailers. I realize that they have 14.5" barrels which is an issue for many, but the price seems really good. The 16" version of the same (LE6921CK) is $180 more. The 11.5" version (LE6933CR) is almost $400 more. Given the manufacturing costs involved, it seems like the 14.5" and 16" barrel versions would be basically the same price with the 11.5" version the same or perhaps a bit less. I know that the market isn't always logical, but is there something else going on here?
https://gearfireimages.s3.amazonaws.com/imagedb/image911712-cd9992c7406e7d8aad86a99161e1536b.jpg
Where are you seeing them that low? There are a few of us who are probably wondering...
On a side note, this also explains why some people are gouging at an unbelievable level on that EE for this same item. Scum... just scum.
https://gun.deals/search/apachesolr_search/le6921ck
I bought one from Beebe Family Arms & Munitions for $473. They took over two weeks to deliver, but it's exactly what you'd expect. I suspect that they just had someone drop ship it for them. Yes, it includes the rear sight and BCG. Family Firearms now has them for $465. I've bought plenty from them, so they're good to go.
Where are you seeing them that low? There are a few of us who are probably wondering...
On a side note, this also explains why some people are gouging at an unbelievable level on that EE for this same item. Scum... just scum.
Some people or just one in particular? I keep seeing the same name.
Some people or just one in particular? I keep seeing the same name.
Its the same one that has been brought up before. I'm all for people making a profit, and I get it. However, selling things at rape prices just because you can shows the character of an individual who is clearly running a business and not paying to be a business member here.
https://gun.deals/search/apachesolr_search/le6921ck
Family Firearms now has them for $465. I've bought plenty from them, so they're good to go.
Thank you, I just ordered one from them. I was going to order two, but you can only order one, which I can understand. Otherwise someone would buy 25 just to hawk online.
I've noticed that complete Colt M4 upper halves (LE6921CR) are available for $465 or a little more from various retailers. I realize that they have 14.5" barrels which is an issue for many, but the price seems really good. The 16" version of the same (LE6921CK) is $180 more. The 11.5" version (LE6933CR) is almost $400 more. Given the manufacturing costs involved, it seems like the 14.5" and 16" barrel versions would be basically the same price with the 11.5" version the same or perhaps a bit less. I know that the market isn't always logical, but is there something else going on here?
https://gearfireimages.s3.amazonaws.com/imagedb/image911712-cd9992c7406e7d8aad86a99161e1536b.jpg
Bret,
I think the answer to your question is that there are hundreds of Colt M4 upper made for every one 6933 (if not more).
Where are you seeing them that low? There are a few of us who are probably wondering...
On a side note, this also explains why some people are gouging at an unbelievable level on that EE for this same item. Scum... just scum.
Don’t even get me started on that topic. Those thrives are on my IL for good reasons.
There are one or three who are beyond the pale.
Some people or just one in particular? I keep seeing the same name.
Mainly one, but there are a couple others that I consider thieves as well.
The LE6921CR upper that I bought sits on my M16A2 lower right now. It's basically an M4 except for the markings on the lower. Not that it really means much, but I put 100rds through it last weekend without issue. I'm seriously considering getting another.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-04-23, 15:01
ARE WE ALL TALKING ABOUT THE GUY WHO SELLS $2500 COLT BUFFER TUBES NAMED ROOSTER AND TYPES ONLY IN CAPS?
the AR-15 Junkie
02-04-23, 15:46
ARE WE ALL TALKING ABOUT THE GUY WHO SELLS $2500 COLT BUFFER TUBES NAMED ROOSTER AND TYPES ONLY IN CAPS?
damn YOU, I just spit all over my computer lol.
ARE WE ALL TALKING ABOUT THE GUY WHO SELLS $2500 COLT BUFFER TUBES NAMED ROOSTER AND TYPES ONLY IN CAPS?
lol
*chortle
https://gun.deals/search/apachesolr_search/le6921ck
I bought one from Beebe Family Arms & Munitions for $473. They took over two weeks to deliver, but it's exactly what you'd expect. I suspect that they just had someone drop ship it for them. Yes, it includes the rear sight and BCG. Family Firearms now has them for $465. I've bought plenty from them, so they're good to go.
Thank you!
FURTHER OFF TOPIC, BUT REALLY, THIS IS MORE THAN RETAIL, BUT FOR A USED ITEM.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?239567-VLTOR-MUR-A1-RECEIVER&p=3088550#post3088550
titsonritz
02-05-23, 00:02
ARE WE ALL TALKING ABOUT THE GUY WHO SELLS $2500 COLT BUFFER TUBES NAMED ROOSTER AND TYPES ONLY IN CAPS?
:jester: I laughed.
I bought one a few weeks ago from grabagun 6921ck for under $500. It came in the colt box and sealed in the blue colt bag, it took 10 days from order to FFL. The upper looks great and shoots fantastic, quite accurate. I had an extended A2 flash hider pin and welded, and used a PSA stealth lower. It's a very handy carbine to have and the perfect length for almost any situation or usage. I wanted one for a long time but at $750 I couldn't justify the price.
Thank you, I just ordered one from them.
Fudge Me!! I grabbed one too! Now I need to rub a magic lamp to wish for an acceptable Quad rail to come available.
FURTHER OFF TOPIC, BUT REALLY, THIS IS MORE THAN RETAIL, BUT FOR A USED ITEM.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?239567-VLTOR-MUR-A1-RECEIVER&p=3088550#post3088550
A few years ago, in the time before coof, there was an item in the EE that was priced above internet vendor prices, where it was immediately available, and he still required shipping and FFL transfer. I contacted the seller as a courtesy, because I thought he didn’t know that a second production run had happened, and he was like “yeah, I know. Want to buy it?” Lol, why would I? I had just bought one for less from a trusted vendor with free shipping.
There is now an upper receiver for over $200 that you can buy directly from the mfg for $158.
[emoji15]
Maybe I’ll just start buying crap I don’t need or want and start listing it here at 40% over retail?
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-05-23, 12:03
I’d love to see trolls like ROOSTER banned. Only here to try to take advantage of this community that has helped so many. And with only 8 feedback, I’m guessing no one buys his wares anyways.
That douche is annoying. He had the side sling attachments listed the other day for some retarded price. I guess some cloner might want that thing, but I'd give one away if I had it.
And with only 8 feedback, I’m guessing no one buys his wares anyways.
From the amount of items listed, and the variety, its clear he is running a business. My guess would be that he asks people not to leave feedback.
That douche is annoying. He had the side sling attachments listed the other day for some retarded price. I guess some cloner might want that thing, but I'd give one away if I had it.
You can buy them all day long from Stag for like $30. Same part the government buys.
Odd. Looks like these are all offered from dealers who don't really have them. Here's a snip from an email I got.
This email is to confirm that your order has been submitted to our distributor for processing. The distributor we submitted it to may have been the only distributor that had it in stock, or it was the distributor that allowed us to offer you the lowest price. Our distributors are running from 2-12 days out for processing and shipping
Odd. Looks like these are all offered from dealers who don't really have them. Here's a snip from an email I got.
That's right. They're apparently being dropped shipped. Family Firearms has come through for me on several items like this. I'd like to know who the distributor is so that I could buy in bulk.
That's right. They're apparently being dropped shipped. Family Firearms has come through for me on several items like this. I'd like to know who the distributor is so that I could buy in bulk.
Cool. That's who I ordered from. No biggie on the delay since there's no Quad rails right now. I was close to buying the Colt Barrel alone from Brownells for $360 or whatever. This deal saves me a lot of money and ass ache piecing an upper together!
I joined the purchase gang for this from Family Firearms. Really, really don’t need, but it will be the only 14.5 I expect to own. Might as well be the original.
Ordered one from FF. What’s the quad rail everyone is recommending? The KAC?
Ordered one from FF. What’s the quad rail everyone is recommending? The KAC?
The KAC would be nice, but they're too expensive now due to cloner fags and no current production. There isn't a good quad rail option right now. Maybe a Centurion if you're ok with the slightly taller bottom rail. That's probably what I'll get if nothing is available for a few months.
Is this the Family Firearms in troy alabama? I went to their website and see no colt complete uppers.
Is this the Family Firearms in troy alabama? I went to their website and see no colt complete uppers.
That's them. Use the link in this thread that takes you to the deal seeker thingy.
Is this the Family Firearms in troy alabama? I went to their website and see no colt complete uppers.
This is the link I used. There is a thread in my humble little section of M4C where people list various good buys, some of it goes pretty quick. I've been waiting for ammo prices to come back to realistic, but this purchase just made too much sense.
https://www.familyfirearms.com/product/colt-mfg-le6921ck-upper-conversion-kit-223-rem5.56-nato-14.50
This is the link I used. There is a thread in my humble little section of M4C where people list various good buys, some of it goes pretty quick. I've been waiting for ammo prices to come back to realistic, but this purchase just made too much sense.
https://www.familyfirearms.com/product/colt-mfg-le6921ck-upper-conversion-kit-223-rem5.56-nato-14.50
I’ve been fighting hard to not buy one of these uppers. I have no need for it. My use for it is as an example of what it is, and I don’t have.
Ammo prices have been plummeting. I even bought a few thousand rounds last month. But yeah ammo, you can never have too much ammo.
I’ve been fighting hard to not buy one of these uppers. I have no need for it. My use for it is as an example of what it is, and I don’t have.
Ammo prices have been plummeting. I even bought a few thousand rounds last month. But yeah ammo, you can never have too much ammo.
My wife was going over bills today and asked what I had purchased for $500, she didn't seem as excited as I was.
... and now it appears that the drop ship sellers are "out of stock". I'm crossing my fingers that the order that I placed late yesterday actually goes through.
... and now it appears that the drop ship sellers are "out of stock". I'm crossing my fingers that the order that I placed late yesterday actually goes through.
Well if mine fell out, at least my quad rail search crisis would be over.
Well if mine fell out, at least my quad rail search crisis would be over.
The Midwest drop in isn’t terrible, if you’re just putting a light or grip on it. Kinda chubby, though.
The Midwest drop in isn’t terrible, if you’re just putting a light or grip on it. Kinda chubby, though.
I had one of their rails. Hated it. Like having a football for a handguard. I may go absolutely bonkers and get a RIS II M4a1 FSB cut rail. The price is a lot for rail, but they're available at least.
I don't want to commit to anything until I know I'm getting the upper half though.
... and now it appears that the drop ship sellers are "out of stock". I'm crossing my fingers that the order that I placed late yesterday actually goes through.
Hmmmm, it wouldn't be the first time an internet post sold everything, but it would be nice to know if we are still slated to get them.
I have zero REAL need for this item, but I'm a sucker for a real FSB barrel and/or Upper. And with the emasculation of the AR over the last several years... (no pic rails, no carry handles, less FSBs), I'm snagging stuff when I can.
Its the same one that has been brought up before. I'm all for people making a profit, and I get it. However, selling things at rape prices just because you can shows the character of an individual who is clearly running a business and not paying to be a business member here.Agreed. Hit your minimum post count and off you go. I really wish we would these people fr the forum.
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ARE WE ALL TALKING ABOUT THE GUY WHO SELLS $2500 COLT BUFFER TUBES NAMED ROOSTER AND TYPES ONLY IN CAPS?Ha!
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I have zero REAL need for this item, but I'm a sucker for a real FSB barrel and/or Upper. And with the emasculation of the AR over the last several years... (no pic rails, no carry handles, less FSBs), I'm snagging stuff when I can.
BCM has plain old middys in stock......
BCM has plain old middys in stock......
Thanks. I have middies too, but I'm on a traditional Military carbine configuration kick lately. I'm running two SOCOMs, but miss my old Gov profile carbine's light weight.
Thanks. I have middies too, but I'm on a traditional Military carbine configuration kick lately. I'm running two SOCOMs, but miss my old Gov profile carbine's light weight.
Next you will be wearing Woodland cammies...lol
hotbiggun42
02-07-23, 21:40
I see a colt 6920 withought furniture for $750 but no cheap uppers. Might pick up the 6920 although i swore off any new AR purchases.
Next you will be wearing Woodland cammies...lol
I almost threw on my woodland BDU coat last week.
Got a tracking number this morning, so I guess I got one of the uppers. Back to quad rail search hell!
Scratch that! I just bought a P&S on gunbroker. I couldn't take another day of disgust at the handguard options of late.
Next you will be wearing Woodland cammies...lol
I almost threw on my woodland BDU coat last week.
Still a great pattern in the woods.
I almost threw on my woodland BDU coat last week.
Got a tracking number this morning, so I guess I got one of the uppers. Back to quad rail search hell!
Scratch that! I just bought a P&S on gunbroker. I couldn't take another day of disgust at the handguard options of late.
I got tracking info this morning also, which makes me feel safely confident that it is legit. How much did you pay for the P&S?
I got tracking info this morning also, which makes me feel safely confident that it is legit. How much did you pay for the P&S?
$275 before tax/shipping... comes with KAC panels. Hopefully my purchase will trigger the release of an undiscovered warehouse full of KAC RAS surplus sets!!
received my tracking also. excited.
received my tracking also. excited.
We're all going to get PSA uppers! :sarcastic:
Hammer_Man
02-08-23, 13:06
We're all going to get PSA uppers! :sarcastic:
The chart Gods would be most displeased.
Your friend won't be crowing in the a.m. any longer
The chart Gods would be most displeased.
To the chart's credit, there's a lot of junk out there drifting away from the old coveted features. A tidal wave of Nitrided American Mediocrity has me wanting to scoop up as much TDP made stuff I can.
Deal's like this will have me wishing I'd bought more than just one later on.
You guys got ripped off. You could have picked up a SOCOM upper with a quadrail for only $2350 in the EE and it comes with a Matech and side sling mount.
Andy
You guys got ripped off. You could have picked up a SOCOM upper with a quadrail for only $2350 in the EE and it comes with a Matech and side sling mount.
Andy
With the option for BCG for only $1000 more!
Hammer_Man
02-09-23, 09:33
To the chart's credit, there's a lot of junk out there drifting away from the old coveted features. A tidal wave of Nitrided American Mediocrity has me wanting to scoop up as much TDP made stuff I can.
Deal's like this will have me wishing I'd bought more than just one later on.
I hear you on that. I look at the chart like a two edged sword. On one hand it gives us consumers standards of quality to look for when spending our hard earned money. On the other hand it has helped fuel the dumpster fire that is the Colt collector/cloner marketplace that enables certain people to pillage the EE without lubricant.
With the option for BCG for only $1000 more!
I’ll bet you $10 it has a Troy rail.
I’ll bet you $10 it has a Troy rail.
It looks just like my Troy rail but is Colt marked (?).
Mine just arrived.
Bastard!! Details?
Bastard!! Details?
Standard blue and white Colt box listing it as:
COLT
Colt Upper Receiver Assembly
Conversion Kit
Caliber 5.56 Model LE6921CK
Barrel 14.5"
Inside its well wrapped, with a M4 double Heat Shield Handguard, and MBUS rear sight. There is no side sling swivel or SSS Mount, there is a traditional bottom sling swivel on it.
Cool. Mine is supposed to deliver today... And my P&S M4 RAS tomorrow.
Got mine today, also. Love it
Swapped out Magpul for a scalarworks rear sight; added a LMT defender lower, will pin and weld a 6315km, and be good to go.
Yeah... that rear sight can't come off fast enough.
Mine also delivered today…I guess. Need to get over to the new house to take it off the front porch.
Great looking upper. Interestingly there are no markings on the Carrier or Bolt. This should send the 2 digit IQ shooters into a tizzy.
The email with shipping information slipped past me, so I was surprised to see it sitting on my porch today.
I haven't bought a Colt since mid 2018, but have no fears about what is being released now. No markings on the carrier or bolt? It's gotta be outsourced, swapped by the distributor, or some other nonsense. Naturally, they'd need to seal it up in a new bag, as markm mentioned. ha ha ha
I'll open the box at some point this evening.
Definitely sealed in a metal guard bag. No dates on the barrel. No markings on the BCG. And the barrel extension look like it was modified after assembly near the feed ramps.
There's no receiver/barrel extension mis-alignment or anything, but there looks to be some bare metal/material removed on the barrel extension.
There's no receiver/barrel extension mis-alignment or anything, but there looks to be some bare metal/material removed on the barrel extension.
There it is, known, genuine Colt markings.
There it is, known, genuine Colt markings.
Is there someting about that? I read Clint (from BRT) ask about feed ramps on the 6920 upper. The barrel and upper receiver are Cage Coded, and the barrel has the twist/caliber info.
I plan to shoot it today if possible, I cleaned off the preservative, patched the bore and cleaned/lubed the BCG. So it's ready to go.
Are you seeing the hand ground reliefs at the top of the feedramps in the lower two lug recesses or something else?
Definitely sealed in a metal guard bag. No dates on the barrel. No markings on the BCG. And the barrel extension look like it was modified after assembly near the feed ramps.
There's no receiver/barrel extension mis-alignment or anything, but there looks to be some bare metal/material removed on the barrel extension.
Check to see if the extractor is marked and what sort of extractor spring is in there (the color of the spring and the insert for it).
After that remind us all again how 'the markings do not matter' so I can have a good laugh... :)
My extractor spring is gold in color and there is a black insert. The rear of the feed ramps have been lightly modified. These facts don't "prove" anything.
I still need to decide what handguard I'll be using. My other Colt uppers have a Magpul MOE SL handguard or factory Centurions, so this one should be different.... maybe a Centurion M-LOK FSB cutout C4. I ran a MI drop-in quad rail for years, but really disliked the size.
I'm glad I could "help" everyone who bought one. ;) Did anyone who bought one have their order cancelled?
Are you seeing the hand ground reliefs at the top of the feedramps in the lower two lug recesses or something else?
I'll see if I can grab a pic. It's dirty now. We took it out and shot a bunch of rounds through it today. Runs like a champ.
Threw a carry handle on it... zeroed it, and ran it out to 500 yards. Not sure I've hever hit 500 with Carbine radius sights, but got it several times today.
Wish I'd have grabbed two of these uppers.. But I barely needed the one.
Did anyone who bought one have their order cancelled?
Not sure if this is sarcastic, but anyone not happy with their upper can PM me and I'll take another one.
Cleaned up and at the range:
https://i.imgur.com/M5L4D2W.jpg
Odd extension mods:
https://i.imgur.com/wVRmN0C.jpg
Thanks for letting us know about this opportunity. I certainly didn't need to buy one, but I'll put it to good use.
I put a Colt carry handle on it, cleaned it. My feed ramps have minor modification. I didn't get it dirty today, so I might be able to get a decent photo. I set it aside until I decide what handguard and muzzle device it'll get.
I just have decide whether to P/W a Keymo muzzle device or leave it as is. For this, it will probably keep the A2.
Not sure if this is sarcastic, but anyone not happy with their upper can PM me and I'll take another one.
I'm not being sarcastic at all. Numerous retailers were showing them "in stock", but they were dwindling fast. They seemed to go out of stock everywhere at once. This makes sense given that they were really being dropped shipped through a distributor. If a retailer's system didn't directly link to the distributor's system to get real time updates, someone might have been able to put an order in that didn't get fulfilled.
I'm not being sarcastic at all.
Gotcha! I read your post incorrectly last night. No doubt they all shipped out of MN.
Those with no markings on the BCG… take a closer look where you expect them to be. I bought a “non marked” Colt BCG from someone here, and it was actually marked, but lightly, and park’d over. Also, I doubt it matters.
I'll check again. Also... the Upper's zero is dead on with mechanical zero using the carry handle I put on it. That's always a nice thing for me. I get annoyed at uppers with too much adjustment off of mechanical zero.
Cleaned up and at the range:
https://i.imgur.com/M5L4D2W.jpg
Odd extension mods:
https://i.imgur.com/wVRmN0C.jpg
Colt does that to all their barrels.
This is a 2014 LE6920 barrel. Unknown round count, has been in several uppers. I threw it in this Geissele to finally get it running after going through two of their barrels with bad chambers.
https://imgur.com/a/2QGMbjP
I find it somewhat ironic that this latest and greatest, all the mods/improvements carbine now sports a used 16” carbine gas, shaved FSB, M4 profile barrel to get it running reliably.
The most fun comes when people shoot it and they gush over how soft/smooth it is thinking it’s a Geissele. They kinda shuffle around and kick rocks when I show them the buffer spring, buffer, bcg, and barrel assembly are Colt.
M4 RAS installed. :cool:
https://i.imgur.com/wD8zoXE.jpg
I’m not willing to spend the money at the moment, but this guy has a couple RAS for $190 shipped.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GunAccessoriesForSale/comments/111hvii/wts_ps_m4_ras_matech_buis_colt_mpc_marked_bolt/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I’ll be that guy.
I picked up the upper and thought, just like I did with the 6920 OEM1 years ago, “That’s unnecessarily front heavy.” I naively thought losing 1.5” of govt barrel might change that perception.
I’ll be that guy.
I picked up the upper and thought, just like I did with the 6920 OEM1 years ago, “That’s unnecessarily front heavy.” I naively thought losing 1.5” of govt barrel might change that perception.
Unnecessarily being a key word here. Government profile is so dumb.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Government profile is so dumb.
It's not the best in theory... which I get. But I've tried almost everything, and the 14.5" M4 Govt is one I really like, and finally own again.
14.5 is my current favorite length... I hate super light profiles, and on the flip side, the SOCOM which I love too, is a little heavy. I wish I'd have bought TWO of these uppers.
I wish I'd have bought TWO of these uppers.
There's one for sale on GunBroker for $500 + $25 for shipping + 3% credit card fee + tax.
M4 RAS installed. :cool:
https://i.imgur.com/wD8zoXE.jpg
Nice gun!
There's one for sale on GunBroker for $500 + $25 for shipping + 3% credit card fee + tax.
Hopefully gone before I look later. Cuz I might grab it.
Nice gun!
Sad situation when finding a Colt upper and M4 RAS rail is an accomplishment worth posting a pic!!
Hopefully gone before I look later. Cuz I might grab it.
Sad situation when finding a Colt upper and M4 RAS rail is an accomplishment worth posting a pic!!
The quintessential American gun, never let go.
The quintessential American gun, never let go.
That would be a Garand ;)
Andy
Here the new upper is with everything installed. Trigger on this is a Wilson Combat TTU MIL/LEO variant trigger (4.5lb single stage).
https://64.media.tumblr.com/efe586f8683ee72bb3490c51dcb0ace3/c95459d89e8db6e2-92/s1280x1920/1671fc86eb513ab2f83d65b27ba128fd73430915.jpg
https://64.media.tumblr.com/f75ea3bc22bbd85334e4656d181a7352/afb12227a22df644-34/s1280x1920/d1e8db3e0ed764558b190c48edf585a6189bb098.jpg
Gorgeous! I'm tempted to dedicate one my SBR lowers to my 6921 upper... even though it's just a carry handle set up right now.
Gorgeous! I'm tempted to dedicate one my SBR lowers to my 6921 upper... even though it's just a carry handle set up right now.
I’ve got a couple uppers that get swapped with this SBR lower. I have other SBR lowers, but this one is a favorite.
Hammer_Man
02-17-23, 13:06
I’ve got a couple uppers that get swapped with this SBR lower. I have other SBR lowers, but this one is a favorite.
Out of curiosity, does the KAC ambi mag release dig into the lower?
Out of curiosity, does the KAC ambi mag release dig into the lower?
Yes, it certainly does. Its not digging in the way some junky optic mounts do, but it does rub lightly against the surface.
I put a LE6921CR upper half on my Colt M16 lower and ran 100rds of Fiocchi 223Rem 55gr FMJ through it. As you'd expect, it was 100% reliable. The cyclic rate seemed perfect. :)
What’s the recommended spring/buffer combo for these?
I run Blue/H2 in mid-lengths. Is the recommended carbine set up the same? Thx
For Carbine, the Colt carbine spring and H2 buffer. Any rifle or A5 buffer systems is great too. Mine is running smooth with the Vltro A5 standard system.
I'm running the carbine spring and an H1 buffer. The full auto cyclic rate seems perfect and the ejection is about six feet. There are no smears on the case heads or dings on the case walls.
I'm running the carbine spring and an H1 buffer. The full auto cyclic rate seems perfect and the ejection is about six feet. There are no smears on the case heads or dings on the case walls.
H1 will work, but I bet you'd like the H2 better. Were you here when RSilvers posted that analysis of the Carbine buffer weights? The bottom line is the H2 most closely resembles the Rifle buffer.
I'll try it. My bet is that it will work just fine.
I'd love to hear if you can tell a difference between the two.
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