Autoworkers Union Keeps $6 Million Golf Course for Members at $33 Million Lakeside Re

[ZDL]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,472304,00.html

SFW link




The United Auto Workers may be out of the hole now that President Bush has approved a $17 billion bailout of the U.S. auto industry, but the union isn't out of the bunker just yet.

Even as the industry struggles with massive losses, the UAW brass continue to own and operate a $33 million lakeside retreat in Michigan, complete with a $6.4 million designer golf course. And it's costing them millions each year.

• Click here to see photos of the UAW's $33 million retreat.

The UAW, known more for its strikes than its slices, hosts seminars and junkets at the Walter and May Reuther Family Education Center in Onaway, Mich., which is nestled on "1,000 heavily forested acres" on Michigan's Black Lake, according to its Web site.

But the Black Lake club and retreat, which are among the union's biggest fixed assets, have lost $23 million in the past five years alone, a heavy albatross around the union's neck as it tries to manage a multibillion-dollar pension plan crisis.

Critics call it a resort for union leaders that wastes money from union dues.
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Photo Essays
o Auto Union's Golf Course

"It's their members' money that they're spending on this thing," said Justin Wilson, managing director of the Center for Union Facts, a union watchdog group. "The union has bigger issues at hand than managing a golf course."

Managing the course may become a burden for the union. The UAW covers costs for the Reuther Center from the interest it earns on its strike fund, according to tax documents, but massive losses in the past five years have forced the union to make heavy loans to keep the center afloat. Critics call it a poor investment for a group with over $1.25 billion in assets.

"Unions certainly have had real estate investments in the past, but investments are supposed to make money, not bleed money," said Wilson.

The UAW did not return calls from FOXNews.com, and a spokesman could not be reached for comment.

The Reuther Center is open 11 months of the year to offer courses on leadership, political action, civil rights and other topics; it hosts nearly 10,000 visitors annually. The UAW says it sends workers there to "learn, experience unionism (and) commit to labor's cause," according to their Web site.

The center was purchased in 1967 and underwent massive renovations in the '90s under the careful watch of former UAW president Steve Yokich. "Today's Black Lake might not exist if not for Steve Yokich," said union member Bob Reidt, whom Yokich appointed as Black Lake's director. "Yokich is responsible for rebuilding Black Lake."

The UAW erected a monument to its longtime president Walter Reuther — the center's namesake — which bears an inscription of his words: "There is no greater calling than to serve your brother. There is no greater satisfaction than to have done it well."

But Reuther, who died in a plane crash en route to the center in 1970, never knew the satisfaction of Black Lake's "well-groomed fairways," a course that Michigan Golf Magazine called a "stunning visual marvel."

Union members can play golf at discounted rates on one of the country's top 100 courses, designed in 2000 by famed course architect Rees Jones at a cost of $6 million.

The center has a storied history. Reuther had his ashes scattered at the site, and Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz honeymooned there in 1940, well before it was bought by the UAW.

"It's funny that they call it an education center — it's a resort," said Wilson. "If I was a union member, I would prefer that they rented out a room at the Ramada Inn."

[ReCon_1]

That's par for the course.

[hickuleas]

Black Lake is very nice, they have many activities there. But as the times have changed it might be best to sell it. Most UAW members never see the place.

[yfzjim]

I was there earlier this year for summer school. Very nice place indeed. however, I dont see what it has to do with the current situation of the big 3. Mine and all other UAW members union dues pay for it not the company.

[AwaySooner]

Why not? The money came from you, your money came from the automakers, the automakers are trying to cut cost. Take a paycut, make better cars, get rid of the management, stop asking for bailouts.

[Littlelebowski]

How about eliminating the union and selling off the golf course? Seems like a win/win for the American public.

[skippy78]

Yea and let the country turn into sweatshops. What is it with all of the anti union here anyway? You have never heard me or any other UAW members on here bash your living.

[Alpha Sierra]

Yea and let the country turn into sweatshops.

Stop that bullshit. Nobody believes it. This isn't 1908.

Your time is long over. Non-union auto manufacturers and their suppliers (like my employer) will BURY YOU.

I will NEVER buy a vehicle made by UAW members, so long as I have a choice.

[Alpha Sierra]

What is it with all of the anti union here anyway?
Some of us actually know first-hand the damage your union has caused the nation.

[jjw]

Some of us actually know first-hand the damage your union has caused the nation.

add me to the list unions are the biggest trouble we have in this country no democrats.

crooked unions have kept crooked politicians in office Way toooo long

[hickuleas]

More anti union comments. Seems like several people hate unions. How many of you people really know about unions? I personally hope everyone makes a decent wage to support their family. What do all the anti unionites do for a living, what has created your attitude? I bet several of you anti union people would start work monday morning for the UAW if you had the chance. Long live the UAW and every company employing people in america. Wake up it isn't us against them. We are all in this together. Hope everyone has a great New Year.

[Littlelebowski]

More anti union comments. Seems like several people hate unions. How many of you people really know about unions? I personally hope everyone makes a decent wage to support their family. What do all the anti unionites do for a living, what has created your attitude? I bet several of you anti union people would start work monday morning for the UAW if you had the chance. Long live the UAW and every company employing people in america. Wake up it isn't us against them. We are all in this together. Hope everyone has a great New Year.

My wife works daily with the Teamsters and their "grievances." Lot of horseshit and mediocrity rules the day, not to mention you simply cannot fire the worst workers. In case you didn't know, unions are the biggest reason why the Big Three are going bankrupt. How's your "decent wage" now that you've bankrupted your employer and meanwhile non union shops are still in business?

The unions are a thing of the past, replaced by OSHA and HR laws. I hope they die a sudden death. Since you asked, I work in IT. I've never needed a union and I get by on my own personal merit. I didn't need a union in the Marines either.

[hickuleas]

Well the unions did not bankrupt the Big three, last i heard, none of the Big three had filed bankrupcy. Union wages are only a part of the whole pic. All have a right to an opinion, just find it odd that someone would want another to lose their job. Were you beaten by a union made baseball bat or ? JEALOUSY get over it.

[Littlelebowski]

Well the unions did not bankrupt the Big three, last i heard, none of the Big three had filed bankrupcy. Union wages are only a part of the whole pic. All have a right to an opinion, just find it odd that someone would want another to lose their job. Were you beaten by a union made baseball bat or ? JEALOUSY get over it.

It's simple math. The Big Three's workers cost 30 dollars more per hour than the foreign competitors. The union pension plans have made the Big Three into insurance companies that happen to make cars. Unions are not needed today and they hurt the American companies that have to deal with their bullshit.

[Cameron]

A very good example of why the BIG 3 should be left to their own devices, a bankruptcy re-organization and demolishing of the UAW would be the initial steps to competitive auto makers. It is funny how UAW members can't understand that there are actually other people making cars in this country that don't belong to a union and they are paid well, and the companies are generally profitable and growing.

[BAC]

More anti union comments. Seems like several people hate unions. How many of you people really know about unions? I personally hope everyone makes a decent wage to support their family. What do all the anti unionites do for a living, what has created your attitude? I bet several of you anti union people would start work monday morning for the UAW if you had the chance. Long live the UAW and every company employing people in america. Wake up it isn't us against them. We are all in this together. Hope everyone has a great New Year.

Aren't unions directly responsible for why poor workers are kept instead of fired as they should be? I mean, I can definitely blame unions for the "quality" of my high school teachers (in two different high schools). Given that I've seen first hand what they do to already sub-standard conditions, and that I've never seen conditions rise because of them... Littlelebowski even described how they help create one of the biggest problems facing any manufacturer in the United States (outsourcing or importing cheaper foreign labor).

But I don't belong to a union, so what do I know. ;)


-B

[yfzjim]

A very good example of why the BIG 3 should be left to their own devices, a bankruptcy re-organization and demolishing of the UAW would be the initial steps to competitive auto makers. It is funny how UAW members can't understand that there are actually other people making cars in this country that don't belong to a union and they are paid well, and the companies are generally profitable and growing.

First off I am proud to be a UAW worker. Unions are far from perfect, thats no secret. I work for Ford in Louisville KY we make the best selling vehicle in America, the F series truck. There is a Toyota plant about 1 hour away in georgetown. The non union workers there make the same wage that I do. The only cost difference is retiree pay. Toyota doesnt have to deal with it YET because they havent been in the US long enough to have many retirees. The UAW is taking over the retiree fund so by the end of our current contract that wont be an issue. I cant speak for GM or Chrysler, but Ford is making a lot of progress. We are building high quality, fuel efficient vehicles that the public want and we have cut a lot of cost. I do understand there are non union auto workers making a good wage as stated above. The reason they make that wage is becuase of the UAW. We have been trying to unionize toyota in Gtown for several years and have gotten close but everytime we do, Toyota will increase wages and benefits for the workers so they dont feel like they need to unionize. I have a good friend that worked for toyota. He got hurt in an accident on the job and ended up with a broken leg and pelvis. Toyota fired him because he couldnt work. That wouldnt have happened in a union shop.
I still dont see how it makes a difference if the UAW were to sell Blacklake, it doesnt cost the big 3 a dime. Me and my family have benefited from a lot of education there. Im not trying to change anyone elses opinion, I am simply explaining mine.

[Nathan_Bell]

More anti union comments. Seems like several people hate unions. How many of you people really know about unions? I personally hope everyone makes a decent wage to support their family. What do all the anti unionites do for a living, what has created your attitude? I bet several of you anti union people would start work monday morning for the UAW if you had the chance. Long live the UAW and every company employing people in america. Wake up it isn't us against them. We are all in this together. Hope everyone has a great New Year.

What has created my attitude about unions?

I get to drive through Youngstown and Warren, Ohio 4-5 days a week, and get to see what happens when unions 'win' when dealing with the companies. I get to see what happens when a company is put in the position of paying their workers more than the value that the workers added to the product. The businesses go under or away.


I have less problems with Trade/Craft unions in general, but I have several beefs with them on a case by case basis. Plumbers in particular.

[JoshNC]

Interesting, especially the blurb about the UAW at the end:

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

[BVickery]

Great little news blurb.


As for Unions, I am against them for the simple reason that at its core its now more of a communistic than capitalistic. When you protect horrible workers who do sub-standard work your product in the end WILL suffer. Case and point is the public education system (as a whole) and the unionized auto industry.


He got hurt in an accident on the job and ended up with a broken leg and pelvis. Toyota fired him because he couldnt work. That wouldnt have happened in a union shop.

He may not have, but as like most stories there are things not being told. People in Unions think that the purpose of a business to give them jobs, its not. Its purpose is to make money and it gets harder and harder to do when there are parasites sucking the money out of the corporation.

You may work your ass off because you take pride in your work. That is great and all the respect to you if you do that, but there are also many people out there who do not, and prefer to do the minimum and thus have their job secured even if they should be fired for.

As far as VEBA, your Union will be begging hard for more money as the billons and billons already payed into it are for the most part sucked dry. Its simple economics because its like the growing problem of welfare in the U.S in general, you have MORE people taking out of it than people paying into it.

The reputation that many unions today have is one they have earned through their OWN actions. Teachers,Police, Auto and Teamsters make their bed and they now have to live with it.

[byatacko]

We have been trying to unionize toyota in Gtown for several years and have gotten close

That is reprehensible, but I guess it's what the UAW is good at.

[Alpha Sierra]

First off I am proud to be a UAW worker. Unions are far from perfect, thats no secret. I work for Ford in Louisville KY we make the best selling vehicle in America, the F series truck. I cant speak for GM or Chrysler, but Ford is making a lot of progress. We are building high quality, fuel efficient vehicles that the public want and we have cut a lot of cost.
LOL!!!!!!

Keep dreaming.

[Alpha Sierra]

How many of you people really know about unions? What do all the anti unionites do for a living, what has created your attitude?
I have worked in union companies long enough (> decade) to see first hand the damage your parasitical organizations do.

I bet several of you anti union people would start work monday morning for the UAW if you had the chance.
I'd castrate myself first. ETA: NOBODY works FOR the UAW. YOUR UNION HAS NO JOBS TO GIVE ANYONE. Your job is not yours. It is Ford's and they let you have it, for now anyway.

Long live the UAW
So long as American cars are made by union labor I will keep driving by their dealers without dropping a penny on them.

[Army Chief]

In the end, it really doesn't matter whether you happen to owe the unions your very livelihood or vehemently oppose them; the fact is that the American automobile industry will never be able to compete in the broader market so long as they are hobbled by the labor practices codified by today's UAW.

We've already sacrificed a significant portion of our manufacturing base in this country on the altar of union and corporate greed, and if we're to retain anything of our auto industry, it seems to me that only bankruptcy (and yes, breaking the UAWs back in the process) will give us that chance. Granting Detroit the bailout they've requested without fundamentally changing the variables involved will only postpone the inevitable.

Chief

[Alpha Sierra]

In the end, it really doesn't matter whether you happen to owe the unions your very livelihood or vehemently oppose them; the fact is that the American automobile industry will never be able to compete in the broader market so long as they are hobbled by the labor practices codified by today's UAW.

We've already sacrificed a significant portion of our manufacturing base in this country on the altar of union and corporate greed, and if we're to retain anything of our auto industry, it seems to me that only bankruptcy (and yes, breaking the UAWs back in the process) will give us that chance. Granting Detroit the bailout they've requested without fundamentally changing the variables involved will only postpone the inevitable.

Chief

Chief, after 13 years in the manufacturing industry (9 of those in union aerospace companies and two of those in union American parts suppliers) I can tell you for a fact that you cannot be more right.

I now work for a Honda supplier and I have news for all you UAW slugs. You will NEVER be able to compete with the Japanese. NEVER. The sheer speed which with they do things, major things, is something none of you will believe.

In the last six months Honda has made production line changes and shifts between all its American plants in order to reduce and consolidate the number of V6 vehicles and maximize the number of 4 cyl vehicles that would take all you union slugs YEARS to do with your ridiculous work rules and your companies bureauocracy.

I've been on both sides of the fence, and I am positive I am now on the winning team. I feel sorry for you all. You will ride your union contracts to the unemployment line. Of that I am certain.

[Alpha Sierra]

I'd like all you UAW hardcores to call your IUE-CWA brothers down at Moraine, Ohio and ask them how its' going on the line.

LOL!!!!!

[militarymoron]

i'm an engineer/scientist in an aerospace company (2nd largest aerospace and defense contractor in the world) and have worked alongside aerospace technician union employees daily for the past 17 years; many of whom are good friends.
about 8 years back, when we were owned by a different company, there used to be more of a grey area, where work could be shared and performed by both exempt and non-exempt employees - i could help when needed, and we all worked well together with common goals in mind. ever since the larger company acquired us, things have slowly become more black and white (between the union and non-union employees), and the grey area has all but gone away.
the result - it takes twice as many people to perform a task as it did before. efficiency is half of what it was. morale went down. lot of 'us vs. them' battles. i've been grieved half a dozen times in the past year, all frivolous grievances that were tossed out, but it cost the company time and money to deal with each one.
the most senior union employee in the group i work with is also the least qualified and cannot perform half the tasks assigned. this causes resentment from the other guys who CAN perform the tasks. 'why do well when we have useless people like that show up to work everyday and earn more?' they'll complain. the problem with the union is that everyone is treated equally, whether they're competent or not. it takes an act of God to fire a union employee, even if they can't do the work. why shouldn't they be treated like the rest of us, who work hard to earn our keep?

many of the techs i speak to dislike the union, but see it as a necessary evil to protect their jobs. however, some understand that if the company no longer exists, those jobs won't either. and they see the writing on the wall.

when management asks us to improve our processes and to identify areas in which we can improve efficiency and cut costs, the biggest area is in the manufacturing area, where the union employees work. any time a solution is proposed that involves the union, our hands are tied. 'it's the union - we can't do anything about that, even if it doesn't make good business sense'.
note that there is more of a problem with the union itself, rather than the employees. we've lost about half our union guys to other companies that run non-union shops and they tell me that they like it much more as it's based on merit.

my company is a lumbering giant that cannot compete as long as the union is present and employees who cannot perform the work are paid the same as those who can. there is no incentive to WORK - only to show up for 8 hours a day.

why are we outsourcing so much of our core competancies? because we're too expensive, management tells us. who are we outsourcing to? non-union shop vendors. smaller companies without the handcuffs. i've visited them before and they remind me of the older days where engineers and technicians worked together to get stuff done.

you really have to ask yourself - what's the purpose of a company and what makes good business sense? i'm currently involved in writing up an agreement between the union shop and exempt employees, and it's ridiculous how much detail we're going into, to hash this out.
i see both sides daily - i'm in the midst of it. i can understand why union employees want to have the union around, but i also see how it affects the company in the long term. the union is dragging my company down, like an anchor. we're all going to sink - union employees and non-union unless that chain is severed.

[hickuleas]

Unions are great, I have been a member for over 30 yrs. In that time i have been lucky and feel fortunate. But its about over for me, they are paying me 60 thousand before taxes to retire. and over the holidays i have and will work every day,many paying triple time. This is what pisses you antis off, we make a good living. My empire of farms, and such is complete. I only hope my union brothers and sisters are allowed to work and prosper as well. IT IS ONLY JEALOUSY

[Jay Cunningham]

One more derogatory reference about union members (i.e. "union slugs") and this thread is done and infractions will be handed out.

What is with some of you lately?

[Alpha Sierra]

Unions are great, I have been a member for over 30 yrs. In that time i have been lucky and feel fortunate. But its about over for me, they are paying me 60 thousand before taxes to retire. and over the holidays i have and will work every day,many paying triple time. This is what pisses you antis off, we make a good living. My empire of farms, and such is complete. I only hope my union brothers and sisters are allowed to work and prosper as well. IT IS ONLY JEALOUSY
I ask again. Please call your IUE-CWA brothers at GM's Moraine Ohio plant and ask them how the job is going.

Oh wait, GM shut it down and sent them home with no more money a week ago.

LOL!

[Nathan_Bell]

Unions are great, I have been a member for over 30 yrs. In that time i have been lucky and feel fortunate. But its about over for me, they are paying me 60 thousand before taxes to retire. and over the holidays i have and will work every day,many paying triple time. This is what pisses you antis off, we make a good living. My empire of farms, and such is complete. I only hope my union brothers and sisters are allowed to work and prosper as well. IT IS ONLY JEALOUSY

hickuleas, you are in your early fifties then? Lets say you're 52 and you will be getting ~$3400 per month. Do you really think that the UAW/Big 3 will be in the financial position to pay your health care and pension for the next 20 years?

That is why so many have issues with labor unions. We look at it and ask how the f#ck is that going to work? Someone works for 30 years, makes well above average wages, and then will be supported for approximately 2/3s that long at average wages and well above average health insurance.

The money has to come from somewhere. Right now the money is red ink, which is why GM lost $38+ Billion and Toyota only lost $1.7 Billion in the worst car market in living memory. Both sold the the same number of vehicles worldwide, so it isn't that Toyota is massively out selling GM.

To mix a metaphor, your ride on the gravy train is killing the golden goose.

[hickuleas]

Hickuleas is 48, and if pension goes broke I will be fine. Like i said earlier hopefully my union brothers and sisters will have the chances i did. It is'nt what you make it"s what you do with it. Try to remember many union people are hard working, and care about building a quality product.

[Avenger29]

Hickuleas is 48, and if pension goes broke I will be fine. Like i said earlier hopefully my union brothers and sisters will have the chances i did. It is'nt what you make it"s what you do with it. Try to remember many union people are hard working, and care about building a quality product.

Ford, GM, and Chrysler are the Olympics, Bushmasters, and DPMSes of the auto world.

[Alpha Sierra]

Hickuleas is 48, and if pension goes broke I will be fine. Like i said earlier hopefully my union brothers and sisters will have the chances i did. It is'nt what you make it"s what you do with it. Try to remember many union people are hard working, and care about building a quality product.

It's all about you. I get it.

Pssst, your younger union brothers are screwed. And guess who did the screwing?

[militarymoron]

hickuleas - i hope you're right, that over the next 30 years, your union brothers and sisters will have the same prosperity that you have had over the past 30 years. (by the way, i do not differentiate between union and non-union people at work - we're all in this together and that's how i've always worked.)
but unfortunately, i doubt it, and believe that today's union workers that are just starting their careers or are only a few years into it will have a very different experience.
i'm not speaking out of jealousy either - i make a good living, and don't begrudge anyone else making a good living, who puts in an honest day's work. you work hard, you should be rewarded. you contribute to the company's growth, the company should take care of you. i don't have anything against what the bargaining unit was originally formed for - nor do i have anything against my union co-workers who work hard and care about building a quiality product.
the problem is the inflexibility of the union itself, and the refusal to recognize anything other than it's narrow focus on protecting worker's jobs (like the company losing contracts and money). the union doesn't protect worker's jobs by contributing to the success of the company, or helping bring more employment and business coming in. it protects jobs by ensuring that certain jobs can only be performed by a barganing unit member (qualified or not). it also protects those who have been in the longest.
the recognition of seniority without regard to performance is not conducive to providing a working environment that encourages a person to perform.
everyone knows senior union employees that are the 'go to' folk, who get the job done. everyone also knows those that have been there since the dawn of time and still shouldn't be given a wrench for fear that they damage the hardware.
in my experience, there are many newer, eager guys who are low on the seniority list are the hardest working. and they're the first to get laid off, leaving the company with less people, some of who are less productive or qualified than those who got laid off. i've been frustrated many times to see good, hard-working people get their notice when i know that the person left to do the work can't do it half as well, nor does he care to.
i'd say on most jobs that i'm involved in everyday on the manufacturing floor, the work is done by the same 1/3 to 1/2 the people. the others are just there, watching the clock for the next break time or end of shift. it's these people that i don't agree in protecting.
companies are not bottomless pits full of money. if the company doesn't do well, and there are less jobs, more people get laid off - both union and non-union. i believe in a merit-based system, not a seniority based one.
also note that i have seen extravagant waste and idiotic policies instituted by the company, too, which i think is inexcusable. the amount of red tape and bureaucracy on both sides (union and company) is astounding.
anyways, i don't think that union shops will be able to operate as they have done in the past or do now, without some very serious implications. the face of business and manufacturing has changed from 30 years ago.
my concerns about unions (not my union co-workers) don't stem from jealousy at all. they stem from fear - for all our jobs in the future. nathan bell said it well: the gravy train is killing the golden goose. no more goose, no more golden eggs for anyone.
sure, i'm concerned about myself, but i'm also concerned about this country and the next 30 years during which my son will grow up.

[hickuleas]

Militarymoron Many of you words i think are very well said. Others by matter of opinion i don't agree with. We do see eye to eye on the need for jobs for our children and everyone. This is why i am an advocate of unions. No system is perfect, and no i dont believe the unions are either. But the unions are for the working people. The core of middle class in this country worked in union jobs. As those jobs left so has our middle class. The public sentiment has become negative toward unions, probably due to misinformation (propaganda). Things became different after the Reagan years, or the air traffic contoller union busting fiasco. I believe as times are changing we need unions now more than ever. Hopefully everyone will prosper union or not.

[militarymoron]

hickuleas - i respect your feelings and opinions, and i am always open to other points of view, as everyone has different experiences.
while we may have a difference of opinons on unions vs non-unions, i know one thing for sure - you and i both love this country, believe in it, and want the best for it. ultimately, we're on the same side, and in it together. my hopes for the future are the same as yours.

[CarlosDJackal]

What is it that COL Dave Grossman calls a Golf Course?

A FINE WASTE OF A GREAT RIFLE RANGE!! :D

I've said it before and I'll say it again. As a former member of a Union (not by choice) IMHO, MOST of today's Unions belong in the same category as the ACLU, NAACP, the KKK, and Elected Politicians. They may have been started for honorable reasons; but not anymore. They may still be useful IF their members were to elect Union Leaders who are not corrupt and are not out to line their pockets and that of their cronies without any regard to their memberships.

With the existence of the Labor Laws and the Department of Labor, most Unions really have no role except to take cash out of their members' pockets and to cost of products or services up. They just add another layer of bureaucracy. JM2CW.

[Nathan_Bell]

What is it that COL Dave Grossman calls a Golf Course?

A FINE WASTE OF A GREAT RIFLE RANGE!! :D



Hah, I needed that laugh

[Alpha Sierra]

The public sentiment has become negative toward unions, probably due to misinformation (propaganda).
Negative on the misinformation. A decade of first hand exposure is more like it.

You cannot compete, which is why you try to (unsuccessfully) unionize those that are whipping you.

Honda will crush the American light aircraft industry next. The IAM-AW is going to get a taste of the same whip the UAW has been getting all these years. Watch for that. :)

[Littlelebowski]

Unions are great, I have been a member for over 30 yrs. In that time i have been lucky and feel fortunate. But its about over for me, they are paying me 60 thousand before taxes to retire. and over the holidays i have and will work every day,many paying triple time. This is what pisses you antis off, we make a good living. My empire of farms, and such is complete. I only hope my union brothers and sisters are allowed to work and prosper as well. IT IS ONLY JEALOUSY

I make almost double that working 8 hours a day on no college education, only what myself and the Corps gave me. Why do we need unions again? My job is stable; my stability is my own competence. I am protected by our gov't. You would think any gun owner in his right mind wouldn't deal with a corrupt organization that endorsed Obama.

[hickuleas]

Littlelebowski You read that wrong, the 60 grand is just to walk out the door and retire. Due to union wages i make much more than that. I respect your opinion, Best of luck in your field.

[Jay Cunningham]

This thread had gotten out of hand. Some of you are attacking individual union members with venomous hatred when it is the union organizations you should have your "issue" with.

This thread is done.