View Full Version : HK, GLOCK, 1911, or SIG?
I'm in the market for another .45. I would like to know what you guys think of THESE handguns in .45 cal as far as accuracy & reliability. I know how to use the search feature but I'm looking to narrow down my choices comparing the above mentioned to each other. I love 1911's but the ones I have seem finicky with ammo which makes me a little uncomfortable if I had to depend on them. My SA GI1911 jammed constantly when I bought it but after a homegrown feed ramp blend job, some Wilson mags & a few hundred rounds, it's pretty darn reliable now. My Para P12 & P14 don't feed reliably which bothers me although I don't have many rounds through them. I have shot Sig's, USP's, & Glocks as well but I can't decide. I'm not concerned with parts availability because if your gun breaks in a crisis, who has time to look for parts anyway? What would be the best choice in your opinion out of the above listed & why? Thanks for your time.
You can't compare the accuracy & reliability of 1911's to the others because there are literally dozens of people making 1911's in every size, shape, price point, and quality level. You can find incredibly reliable 1911s, incredibly accurate 1911s, and incredibly inaccurate and/or unreliable 1911s.
Which model(s) HK, Glock, and SIG are you considering?
Sorry. HK USP fullsize, Kimber Custom II 1911, Sig 220, Glock 21. Thanks!
What about the NEW HK45? I would go with that over a USP.(Sorry i know you didnt ask for THAT HK).If not i would go with the sig220, out of those you listed.
Sig I have no experience with.
Glocks, I don't like the way they fit my hand and I like the idea of an actual safety lever.
1911's I do like, but sounds like you have at least a couple of them.
I have a full sized USP .45 and I really like it except that the grip is a tad too big for me.
I had one stovepipe that I'm sure was due to weak form.
Other than that it goes BANG every time and the accuracy is great, certainly better than I'm capable of.
Where are you at?
Greg
I think you need to elaborate on what you're going to use it for. Will it be a carry gun or a plinker? If it's for carry, I'd go with the 220 or the 21. You may want to consider the 30 as well.
Thanks fellas! I'm in Cali so the USP is the only .45 cal HK available to us from their lineup (sucks). I'm not a big Glock fan myself, but they are reliable which makes tham a consideration for the next purchase. I don't hear much negative about Sid's stuff either. I don't want to spend $2k on a tricked out 1911 but I have never heard one bad review of a Kimber 1911. Anyone know how many rounds it takes on average for a 1911 to loosen up? The gun is for plinking & SHTF.
Alpha Sierra
12-27-08, 18:23
M&P45
You must not be visiting the right sights:D
Recent Kimbers, especially the series II are not receiving very good reviews.
There are a few threads at other sights regarding the longevity/durability of Sig 220's
Take a look over at 10-8 forums, and I believe tactical forums has a long thread on the 220(older thread)
Take a look at Hilton's articles on selecting a 1911, if you have any intentions of using one seriously, its good stuff.
As for actually shooting them,
Awhile back, when I was interviewing for a job, with another organization in the complex, I had to shoot a modified qual course, we stopped at 25yds.
I was given a worn 220, and a new in the bag Ted Blocker holster. Having not shot a DA in years, I was a little worried, after a little fam fire, we shot for record, no problems, nice smooth trigger, accurate etc etc.
A friend of mine bought an HK USP 45, the expert I think, with the OD frame and decal grips. I only shot a few rounds thru it, and couldn't really put my finger on what it was I didn't like about it, other then barely being able to reach the trigger in DA. Then reading Hilton's article on plastic .45's, he hit on the right word, "detached".
Never really shot a G21, so I got nothin.
Have you thought about an M&P45?
Bob
I don't know what it is about the M&P that doesn't do it for me, but it doesn't.
Les Baer TRS, reliable and accurate and will last a lifetime(or at least 100k rounds)
M&P 45 with the full size frame and 4" slide. Great pistol for the money. Very accurate and reliable.
HK 45 if you prefer the extra attention to quality. Pricey but they are worth the ticket.
I swear by my 1911's but also believe the above pistols are a great alternative.
If you shoot a 1911 the M&P will be a easy transition for you.
Of the choices you mentioned I'd probablly pick the USP, though It's pretty darn big for my hands. I'ts real darn big for concealment. Accuracy is very good, but not 1911ish. Recoil is very mild in this platform for me.
My second choice would be the Glock it's second because I've seen a few reports by people I respect stating that .40 &.45 caliber Glocks are problematic. I've never had a problem with either, but have the vast majority of my Glock time is with 9mms. The .40 and .45 caliber Glocks are considerably less cofortable for me to shoot. If they came as well reccomended as the 9mms the Glock would be my first choice of the ones you've listed.
My third choice would be the Sig. If you can get an older Sig then it would move it up to #1 or 2 for me. However the latter modles made in the states have a lot of repoerted QC issues that scre me away.
Dead last would be a Kimber for me. Personally I have had a Kimber TLE II that would not reliably feed more than 30-50 rounds before it would have feeding issues with any mags I tried. After the break in period I made a phone call to Kimber and I was told I should polish the feed ramp and breech face, swap the recoil spring for a stronger than factory one and try a different external extractor. I eventually got the gun to run by using the original extractor with just the polishing and spring swap. I sold the gun and swore off of anything Kimber made after the series IIs came into being. The more research I did online the more common the problems seemed.
If you are open to other options that I think are CA approved. In order I'd look at the Springfield TRP, Springfield Operator, Springfield Loaded, USPc and the S&W M&P as has been suggested. All of wich have thier quirks but they seem less problamatic than others.
You say the gun is "for plinking & SHTF." I would respectfully submit that you focus on getting a gun for the SHTF role and any plinking capability would just be a bonus. If you're going to get just one, set your priorities properly.
Choosing just from the guns you mentioned, if the HK fits you well I'd probably opt for that. I'd put the SIG and Glock below it and fairly equal in terms of positives and negatives; they're much different guns but overall they're of similar "quality" for the purposes you mentioned. Series-II Kimbers I'd list just slightly below rabid cats on the list of things I'd like to own.
variablebinary
12-27-08, 22:36
I'd get a 1911 personally
I about fell over when I read that. Kimbers are known for having lots of problems and Kimber CS is known for not getting them fixed. Read this for more details from people who know what they are talking about.
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=68612&an=0&page=2#68612
Unless you are already familiar with 1911's and are willing to make the investment to learn the manual of arms and maintenance yourself I suggest you stay away. 1911's require extensive maintenance and have many points of failure.
I would also avoid Sig. Their quality control and service is a shadow of its former self and they are not worth the price asked.
I would recommend the mid-size M&P .45 as a do it all .45 with great ergos and great customer service.
HK45c is probably the best smaller .45 i have ever owned but you might not be able to get it there plus parts availability is an issue.
The Glock 30 SF would also be a good choice.
Finally for what you are doing you might consider a 9mm. Unless you have a specific reason for a 45 you probably don't need to spend the extra $$ on .45 ammo. My choices there would be Glock 19, Glock 17, or M&P 9mm.
I would be concerned about parts availability. Get two of the same pistol and make them your mainstays.
I don't want to spend $2k on a tricked out 1911 but I have never heard one bad review of a Kimber 1911.
Sorry. HK USP fullsize, Kimber Custom II 1911, Sig 220, Glock 21. Thanks!
All of these are good choices. Try to shoot them all/check them out before making your decision and get the one that fits you best. My personal choice would be the S&W M&P .45 with 4" barrel. The M&P is a great gun and hard to beat especially for the $.
Thanks fellas! I'm in Cali so the USP is the only .45 cal HK available to us from their lineup (sucks). I'm not a big Glock fan myself, but they are reliable which makes tham a consideration for the next purchase. I don't hear much negative about Sid's stuff either. I don't want to spend $2k on a tricked out 1911 but I have never heard one bad review of a Kimber 1911. Anyone know how many rounds it takes on average for a 1911 to loosen up? The gun is for plinking & SHTF.
With this criteria, and the possible problems obtaining HK parts if you have an issue, and it is just for " for plinking & SHTF", you may want to consider a Taurus PT1911, try it, you may like it.
I have 1, I shoot it just as much as my Dan Wessons, Springfield and MEUSOC 1911's, and it shoots every time I pull the switch....and for the ballpark of $500.
Thanks for the feedback fellas! Most of my handguns are .45's. I like the round. I have 3 1911's so oviously I like them. But I thought about getting a higher end 1911 than what I have. Where I'm from, Kimbers are the greatest thing in the 1911 world. At least that's what I'm told. I never hear bad things about Sig's, HK's & Glocks. As far as the 1911's, most folks like them or don't. BTW, any ideas on how to get my Para widebodies to feed more reliably? They both have low round counts through them.
a1fabweld,
It sounds like you have not been given accurate information and your research has not been in the right places.
Current Kimbers generally have not performed well, especially those utilizing the Swartz type firing pin safety. Likewise, recent Sig's, especially the P220's have had numerous issues. G21's also have a somewhat checkered history--particularly with several west coast LE agencies that have reported significant problems. Unless you can get the new HK45 or HK45c, I'd skip the HK's, particularly given HK's dismal customer service track record...
Since you live in California, you must deal with the asinine 10 round magazine limit. Given your unique situation and your desire for a .45 ACP pistol, the recommendations are quite simple: If you want a 1911 for serious use, the minimum level of quality for a duty/carry weapon is the SA Pro model (either PC9111 or PC9111LR if you want a light rail); if you’re not willing to invest that much into the weapon system, don't get a 1911, purchase a S&W .45 ACP M&P instead. End of Story.
Oh...as many others have unfortunately discovered, your Para "widebodies" may NEVER work right...
Series-II Kimbers I'd list just slightly below rabid cats on the list of things I'd like to own.
Fell out of my chair laughing at that one...................:D
If I was given a Kimber I would probably regift it;)
I don't know what it is about the M&P that doesn't do it for me, but it doesn't.
Are you interested in how it looks or how it performs. If looks are what you are after the Kimber Series 2's will fill the bill quite nicely however unless you are prepared to spend big bucks in getting a proper 1911 stick with what works reliably. Series 1 Kimbers however work very well in my experience.
IMHO the Para's are a waste unless you want to replace most internal parts. Even then its a crap shoot. If you like the feel of the 1911 try to shoot a M&P45; they feel similar.
Another SoCal here, and feeling much deprived about the lack of HK45. Oh well...
Of the options you listed, I think I'd pick the USP. Accurate, durable, highly reliable, and modular so you can have an armorer mod it to suit you. Or, find a CPO SIG P220. Lots of folks discount them for poor QC, and while that might be true (or not) of newer guns, there are still lots of older folded guns around.
I know a guy in SoCal with an HK45 but I think he owned it when he moved there.
As to the Sig CPO's there was quite an uproar on the Sig forum not long ago about the CPO's having some kind of crappy refinish job that peeled. Don't know if that has been fixed but until Sig gets their shit together and stops taking advantage of their name with cheaper parts and inferior QC and CS I would avoid any product from them. I guess they are unaware that it takes years to establish a good reputation, no time at all to lose it, and a really long time to gain it back. But whoever hired Cohen from Kimber must have known what he was going to do and been OK with it. I wonder if they are feeling any repercussions from the buying public and LEO yet?
WOW! I'm blown away with how different the info I've received locally from the gun shops is to what I read here! I'm glad I posted! It looks from the options I listed the HK is the only one that gets a half decent review here. The reason I have not considered the M&P is that I personally don't know anyone who owns one to hear any first hand experience either good or bad. I was at the range a few months ago fumbling with my Para which was giving me a hard time & some guy pulls up next to me with a Glock 45 & starts ripping away his target. He talked about how his Glock would eat anything along with being reliable. I almost threw my Para at the target after half the Winchester rounds I attempted to fire failed to feed. LOL! I then bought a box of realoads from the range shop & it fed them flawlessly. I like the idea of 10 rounds in a 45 combined with a 1911 frame which is why I bought the Para's in the 1st place. Are there any tricks to get my Para's to feed more reliably? I have an XD40 which performs well & I kicked around the idea of an XD45.
Fire_Medic
12-28-08, 15:59
I shot an XD 45 tactical once and it was one of the softest shooting 45's I've EVER shot. The gun is also extremely accurate.
I also miss my Glock 30SF, very accurate and soft shooting.
WOW! I'm blown away with how different the info I've received locally from the gun shops is to what I read here! I'm glad I posted! It looks from the options I listed the HK is the only one that gets a half decent review here. The reason I have not considered the M&P is that I personally don't know anyone who owns one to hear any first hand experience either good or bad. I was at the range a few months ago fumbling with my Para which was giving me a hard time & some guy pulls up next to me with a Glock 45 & starts ripping away his target. He talked about how his Glock would eat anything along with being reliable. I almost threw my Para at the target after half the Winchester rounds I attempted to fire failed to feed. LOL! I then bought a box of reloads from the range shop & it fed them flawlessly. I like the idea of 10 rounds in a 45 combined with a 1911 frame which is why I bought the Para's in the 1st place. Are there any tricks to get my Para's to feed more reliably? I have an XD40 which performs well & I kicked around the idea of an XD45.
Be careful of what you hear at gun shops/shows/ranges, as you rarely get the truth. Don't believe anything you hear, and only 1/2 of what you see.
There are plenty of recognized SME on this site and a few others(10-8 & Lightfighter) who have plenty of real world knowledge to share. Plenty of just all around good guys, also, who just want to share their experiences.
Do a search here and 10-8 and you'll find some good and recent info regarding the HK's and M&P 45.
I've got a M&P45(and a 9 and 40). It has a heavy trigger, but smooth and manageable. Its "accurate" and I shoot it as good as my custom 1911's, getting a comment about it from LAV in one of his classes. The triggers are reported to be better, but for $125, the performance center will put in a pro sear, and some other work, and your good to go.
How do you get a Para to work better, sell it. Honestly, most serious users don't recommend Para's. Again, check out Yams articles at 10-8performance.
Bob
But whoever hired Cohen from Kimber must have known what he was going to do and been OK with it.
OK with it and appreciative, apparently. Cohen was put in charge of SIG worldwide (Switzerland, Germany, US) a few months back.
The reason I have not considered the M&P is that I personally don't know anyone who owns one to hear any first hand experience either good or bad.
There is plenty of info here, at mp-pistol.com, and elsewhere on the web to help you form an objective evaluation of the gun's strengths and weaknesses. To be honest, the experience of 1,000 strangers might be more valuable to you than the experience of one acquaintance.
Are there rental ranges in your area where you could actually try the guns side by side to see which one works best for you?
I like the idea of 10 rounds in a 45 combined with a 1911 frame which is why I bought the Para's in the 1st place. Are there any tricks to get my Para's to feed more reliably?
Yes. Sell it, take that money and invest it towards a SA Pro, Bear TRS, or similar along with some quality 10rd magazines. Better yet, accept that for a 1911-pattern gun you're better off with 8rd magazines.
MarshallDodge
12-28-08, 17:07
I would second the Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special. I have two Baers, including the TRS, and love them.
I was able to try a M&P 45 this summer and liked everything but the trigger. What can I say, I like a good trigger and the 1911 spoils me. :cool:
There are those out there that like their series II Kimbers and quite a few that don't. It seems that they are hit and miss, kinda like Para Ordnance.
Check out the Dan Wesson Valor while you are at it. Impressively tight and accurate, not sure on reliablity but if it is like my Classic Bobtail then I would get one.
I don't have a range near me that rents a variety of guns to be able to shoot what you like. I have to do it the hard way like alot of us do. My budget won't allow me to go over $1k so the high end 1911's are out. Thank you guys very much so far for the suggestions. Keep em coming!:)
paconstabull@yahoo.com
12-28-08, 23:18
Glock
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-29-08, 01:58
Out of the four the HK45 is, IMHO, the best for your purposes.
Are you anywhere near Duarte, CA? The guys at Gunrunners will give you a good deal on an M&P in any caliber.
I did not comment on the .45 as my own M&P is a 9mm. Still, it is a great gun and most guys I know with the .45 love them.
IrishDevil
12-29-08, 19:03
If it were me personally, I'd sell the Para's. Take the proceeds from that sale and whatever you have budgeted for a new gun and buy 1 or 2 M&P 45's. Then from there I'd have sights installed, then Pro sears. Take the rest of your money and buy ammo, mags, and carry gear. Then I'd seek some quality training.
If you have to have a 1911, I'd part with the Para's and the GI. Take that money plus your budgeted amount and buy a pair of SA Pro's. You'll then need to come up with more money for extras.
Cagemonkey
12-29-08, 20:05
The four makes/models of .45's you mentioned are all decent guns. You have to find a gun that you are comfortable with. What gun can you hit with? What gun feels right? Is the trigger pull right? Do you like DA/SA trigger system? Etc. etc. Go to the range. Shoot the guns your are interested in. See which ones you like. I've bought many pistols that technically were good to go, but couldn't hit shit with them. I always come back to the 1911 45ACP. What works for me may not work for you.
Okay, the newer SIG 220s suck. When was the cutoff for when they were still considered to be up to snuff? A local shop has a very lightly used folded slide model that's been tempting me.
I wouldn't say the newer ones suck, they just have different problems than the older ones (which had problems).
The old folded-slide version is a very reliable and accuracy gun that you can depend on blindly for 10,000 rounds ... after that, luck and maintenance become bigger factors, in that order. There are certainly people who report having many tens of thousands of rounds through their stamped-slide P220's. Whether or not you believe them is up to you.
The newer guns are more robust but lack the QC of the German-made guns.
I have owned both and have to say the sig220r I recently purchased was somewhat of a disappointment comparing it to several other sigs I have owned.
Many ftf, fte, and light primer strikes during break-in. My kimber on the other hand ran like a top right out of the box.
So I went to the range yesterday & fired a friends USP 45 fullsize & I gave my Para P14 another chance. I fired 100 rounds through each of UMC 230gr ball ammo. Both guns functioned 100%. I have to say that even though I have medium size hands, I prefer the larger grip of the double stack 45's. My Para was pretty much dead on & the HK needed adjustable sights. Both grouped well & I'm sure the accuracy of both guns surpassed my ability to shoot them accurately. I have to get hold of an M&P which is so highly regarded & give it a try.
You can certainly keep giving your Para another chance. Reminds me of the battered wife who keeps believing her husband when he promises not to hit her anymore ...
You can certainly keep giving your Para another chance. Reminds me of the battered wife who keeps believing her husband when he promises not to hit her anymore ...
That's funny! I spent $700 on the sob & I thought it was only fair to shoot it again before I sold it.
gtmtnbiker98
12-30-08, 12:29
I would definitely consider the M&P 45 in either of the three flavors (FS, Mid, and Compact). I foolishly sold my FS and currently own the Compact. They are absolutely accurate and even give my G30 SF a run for the money in the accuracy department. As for the triggers, they smooth up after a few hundred rounds and of course, a trigger job can always be performed from the likes of Burwell or Bowie.
"I spent $700 on the sob & I thought it was only fair to shoot it again before I sold it."
Why waste the ammo? Widebody 1911's, particularly the Para's, are widely known to have too many problems to be considered a hard-use, fully reliable pistol. You are better off saving your ammo to test/break-in/get-used-to a new M&P or SA Pro.
Hell, if you don't want to spend big bucks on the SA Pro get a mid Springfield. I bought the Loaded model in OD Green a few years ago. It was in the $600 range. It is one excellent 1911! :D
I didn't know that...sounds like the bean counters won.
OK with it and appreciative, apparently. Cohen was put in charge of SIG worldwide (Switzerland, Germany, US) a few months back.
Or split the difference a little more and get an MC Operator.
Hell, if you don't want to spend big bucks on the SA Pro get a mid Springfield. I bought the Loaded model in OD Green a few years ago. It was in the $600 range. It is one excellent 1911! :D
CDNN Investments has them for $825 right now. Much better price than most any gun shop. I have seen them recently for as low as $919 and as high as $1100 in local shops.
I've run into a number of people lately, some range acquaintances, some friends of friends who are buying HK's and say they used to buy Sigs.
Out of the four the HK45 is, IMHO, the best for your purposes.
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