View Full Version : Classic 9mm's: CZ 75 and Browning Hi-Power
Although their designs originated decades apart, they're both heavy, steel-framed handguns that have been manufactured in many different countries (probably with varying levels of QC).
Does one design stand out as having any superior qualities over the other? I've examined a Girsan P35 (Hi-Power clone) and a CZ-75 in a local store and I'm leaning slightly towards the CZ-75, but it's almost a toss-up.
I have always heard the HP doesn't hold up well to hotter ammo while simultaneously hearing Euro spec 9mm has always been typically hotter than US made stuff so?
Stock, neither will drop a mag free, but removing the HP mag disconnect or modifying/changing the 75 insert in the mag well will remedy thar.
I had one 75B that had a decent trigger pull, but developed something like trigger slap on reset over time. The second one I had started out with trigger slap , but still a decent pull. Unless you have a fairly long reach the DA pull on an original 75 is kind of pointless.
HP stock pull is mushy, but not terrible and the Cylinder and Slide fire control kits are pretty good
Trigger reset(if or until slap kicks in) is pretty much 6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of the other.
Mag release and slide release aren't really different to me. MkII/III type safeties or aftermarket versions and 75 safeties are functionally equivalent. The old flat HP safety sucks.
I think the HP has a better feel and is easier to conceal.
I think the slide to frame fit of the 75 will hold up longer.
I don't think a HP is in any way unreliable(hollow points are fine with newer or modified old style feed ramps), but the 75B's I had would feed empties.
The HP might have slightly more holster options since Safariland has made ALS/SLS rigs for it as well as Radar from Europe making a rig that looks and functions like an SLS duty holster.
If you want a lanyard loop, the CZ is easy to install and where lanyard loops usually are positioned. The HP would require drilling the frame and the infinite loop is on a stud(loop and cut grips may be difficult to find) that is pressed in to the frame and requires soldering(original) or epoxying in place. May be annoying to a left hander in the original position(nottom rear of the frame on the mag release side unless you switch it to the ejection port side and cut the grip for it.
That's the only stuff coming to mind at the moment.
I have a very well worn MKII/III (transitional) Hi Power and a Magnum Research imported CZ75B.
The only considerations I would add to what jbshike said:
* It seems easier/cheaper to find quality magazines for the 75B.
* My personal Hi Power has sharp tang corners, and I think that is typical.
* Sights are easier to change on the 75B than most HPs.
As far as my experience with them:
The HP has been far and away the most trouble free. I have owned my MKII/MKIII HP for over 30 years, it was pretty salty when I bought it, and if it has ever failed to function I do not remember it.
My CZ75B was in very good condition when I bought it and was initially quite reliable, but did not remain so. Dirt/carbon collects under the 75B extractor and causes malfuctions. Its a common issue and the fix is to drive out the extractor retaining pin, clean the extractor and channel, and then re-assemble. Once I found this out and got my pistol running 100% again, I broke a firing pin. This is also a common issue. Dry firing will either break the firing pin or mangle the firing pin retaining pin.
The factory and aftermarket parts selection is greater for the CZ 75B. Especially if pistols like the Girsan and SA are not exact Hi Power copies.
Andy
P.S. Purely personal preference. I love Hi Powers, whether mirror blue, engraved, or silver-worn phosphate like mine. Its just a beautiful design with a ton of history.
legumeofterror
02-20-23, 10:40
I have carried a CZ75 variant of some sort for 14 years, completed with them and have taken dozens of classes. The only failures I have experienced are worn out firing pin retaining pins and a broken firing pin, both at extremely high round counts and avoidable with regular maintenance. The CZ75 is a better pistol than the Hipower and has much better aftermarket support. Mine have been extremely reliable.
My Shadow 2 has ~20k rounds through it and I broke the firing pin as I very rarely clean it and it got dirty enough the firing pin stuck forward and the next round feeding bent it. The two compacts below have another ~10k between them and need to have each had the firing pin retainer replaced once. They of course all have been resprung a few times.
https://i.imgur.com/QGTTzO9.jpg
In my opinion, they're both good guns worth having. I have several of each.
While the CZ-75 is technically a double action pistol, it's effectively a single action pistol like the HiPower. There's no way to lower the hammer unless you want to pull the trigger and thumb the safety down. Assuming you accomplish this, then the first trigger pull will be double action. However, you can't put the safety on when the hammer is down. I prefer having the hammer back with the safety on to thumbing down the hammer and not being able to use the safety. BTW, CZ does make a decocker version, but it doesn't have a manual safety. Also, most CZ clones will allow the safety to be put on if the hammer is thumbed down.
Might want to read this: https://hipowersandhandguns.com/ Stephen Camp left us a great site.
I own both and prefer the CZ 75, but respect the HP very much and if you are a cocked and locked guy its a great pistol.
Points of weakness? While i believe the CZ 75 is overall better for the modern shooter with many more aftermarket options, it still can break trigger return springs. I've replaced too many to count, but I dry fire a ton. The other issue MAY be the slide stop breaking, but these are only for guys who shoot tens of thousands of rounds. I doubt most owners will ever break one. I have NOT heard of people breaking FPs in the75 until today on this thread and I've been on the CZ Forum for decades.
The CZ is also a tad heavier and larger and the HP is a bit easier to carry. But... the Po1 and PCR are alloy framed viable options that make much better carry guns than the HP.
I also think for the average bubba the 75 is easier to shoot better. The grip tang is easier and more ergonomic. The tang on the HP can bite.
The 75 offers a real variation and restrike capability with its DA. It has modern versions with decockers both in steel and alloy frames. But... I have found decocking the manual safety guns to be easy and safe with some care. Keep in mind that if you are using a B model, as soon as you release the trigger the FPB precludes firing. Decocking by first placing the off hand thumb over the FP makes the process quite safe - IF you want to carry in DA.
While it can be argued that the HP is simpler and MIGHT last longer before a parts breakage, both are very reliable and will last generations.
militarymoron
02-21-23, 18:37
Not too much to add to the advice above, but just an excuse to post a pic if that helps. While I love the history and nostalgia surrounding the BHP, I can't say I'm a huge fan of shooting a bone stock BHP with its smooth front and back straps. I felt it needed a bit of tweaking. Shown in the pic below is my stock BHP and my customized one, which has relatively subtle mods that make a big difference in the way it feels. Textured on the front and back straps, C&S components, all sharp edges 'dehorned' just a bit, reshaped tang, Novak sights etc. However, I think it's harder (and maybe more expensive) to get a BHP just the way I like it vs. a CZ with its huge aftermarket support for the DIY'er like me.
On the CZ75 SP01 below I changed out all the parts myself with CZcustom/CajunGunWorks converting it to single action (it's got an amazing trigger - feels very much like a 1911 now). It took a lot less effort (and no custom gunsmithing) to get it the way I wanted it (mostly). I'd say buy both, really (if they're both the 'basic' models).
https://i.imgur.com/FmhdDX1.jpg
I'll add this though - CZ has a .22LR conversion kit called the Kadet and it is friggin' awesome. I used it to teach my son to shoot. I have never had a malfunction with it, and it is very accurate (as accurate as my Buckmark). I know that there are aftermarket .22LR conversion kits for BHPs but they're not that common.
https://i.imgur.com/eAIqr5E.jpg
I've tried both and own a MK3 that Don Williams worked over. I have small hands and prefer the trigger reach/distance on the Hi Power. To be fair, I struggle with the reach on every DA/SA pistol I've shot.
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Here's one that Don Williams did for me. Note that it has an aluminum frame. The frame had to first be nickel plated before it could be hard chromed.
https://i.postimg.cc/0Nc0gGV8/Alloy-Hi-Power-right-view.jpg
I was issued the Hi Power for years, and I love the pistol.
I have a Cylinder and Slide full house pistol, it has a 2.8 pound trigger pull. Too bad Cylinder and Slide is closing.
While the HP is well proven, reliable, and the same weight as the CZ Compact, many times the trigger is pretty bad and not simply solved by removing the mag disco. It is often heavy and reset is looonnnggg. And your run of the mill smith cannot help much. The trigger is complex with a transfer bar activating the sear. That is how the frame is slim. This is PhD level gunsmithing. Yes, you can find one that is acceptable OTB, but do it in person - and even then you'll likely want a trigger job down the pike. I saw a really nice Girsan recently and MAN did it need a trigger job. My HP needed one also and it was a MKIII.
The CZ OTOH comes with a very useable trigger - even with the camming of the sear, it is extremely shootable And... especially for manual safety models, it is a breeze to work on and if you Cajunize it, it can get superb - all by yourself.
Brian is spot on saying the BHP trigger mechanism is complex, and mine definitely does not have a great trigger pull or reset.
My CZ75B is a sample of one and I know they have a reputation for being both reliable and durable. At the same time, broken firing pins and damaged FP retaining pins are not unheard of, the same is true of crud building up under the extractors. I have also heard of CZ75 slide stops breaking, normally on high round-count pistols.
Cajun Gun Works sells improved firing pins and FP retaining pins. The FPs also allow a lighter mainspring for an improved trigger pull. CGW also sells stronger extractor springs. All can be swapped fairly easily at home. A spare slide stop is cheap insurance and my experience with any pistol is that having a spare virtually guarantees the original will last forever.
Andy
Never herd of the FP problem, and I've never used an original FPRP for long. If you dry fire much a simple small Oring is your friend and beats the snap cap for longevity.
If there IS a reliability problem in the 75 it is almost always the dirt/extractor problem - but easily fixed. Some replace the extractor spring also. Some 40 guns ended up with 9mm slide stops and this also presented a problem and easy fix.
One thing I do on all 75s is to pull the extractor and polish the chamber face and surface under the slide, and slightly polish the extractor.
CGW has everything you likely will ever need for the 75.
Of the three Hi-Power clones currently on the US market (Girsan, FN, Springfield Armory) it appears that Girsan is the only one to retain the mag disconnect. I guess this is a nod to the purists?
.......If there IS a reliability problem in the 75 it is almost always the dirt/extractor problem - but easily fixed. Some replace the extractor spring also. Some 40 guns ended up with 9mm slide stops and this also presented a problem and easy fix.
The slide stops can also fail.
I'm not the only one who has had this happen and I've broken two of them so far: 9k rounds on the first one and 7k rounds on the second. In that time I've had to clean out the extractor slot once.
The slide stops can also fail.
I'm not the only one who has had this happen and I've broken two of them so far: 9k rounds on the first one and 7k rounds on the second. In that time I've had to clean out the extractor slot once.
Good point - I wasn't trying to exclude the SS - known 'feature' that requires maintenance. And I'd agree that the extractor thing is more rare.
IMHO the TRS is a flaw that is much more problematic.
In my experience the Cajun Gun Works TRS’s last much longer than CZ OE TRS’s.
https://cajungunworks.com/product/rptrs-reduced-power-trigger-return-spring/
legumeofterror
02-23-23, 17:15
Cajun Gun Works TRS’s last much longer than CZ OE TRS’s.
https://cajungunworks.com/product/rptrs-reduced-power-trigger-return-spring/
A buddy I train with got one of those "improved" springs and it broke in the first 100 rounds. We put the factory one back in and it's been fine for a couple years now. I have never had a TRS or slide stop fail.
A buddy I train with got one of those "improved" springs and it broke in the first 100 rounds. We put the factory one back in and it's been fine for a couple years now. I have never had a TRS or slide stop fail.
I've got over 9,000 rds plus a lot of dry firing on my Cajun Gunwworks TRS in my CZ75 PO-1 Omega pistol. I guess anything can break, even a Glock or AK. LOL !
My 1991 built Pre-B 75 broke it's original slide stop last summer. I probably have at least 15,000 rounds on that thing. Cleaned the extractor channel once, replaced the extractor spring once, many recoil springs and I've tried several hammer spring weights. Other than that, no issues.
I went through a period of P-35 "Hobbyist Gunsmithing"; sights. trigger work, BarSto/KKM barrel fitting, C&S Thumb Safety's, FS Stippling, etc.
Sent one to Don Williams for his "Short Re-set" job and asked him to check and critique my work. He said all looked just fine. Figured my journey with that/those projects was finished.
I still shoot one of them from time to time, but I've gifted all but two of them to family/friends.
I've owned a few CZ/s. Their Hammer guns were quite nice, but never really clicked with me.
I still have a P-10c that I tricked out. I keep it as a bedside gun, just because everyone is supposed to have a Striker gun.
My favorites are still 2011/1911's. That's what I grew up with, what I shoot the best.
I'm actually considering getting one of the new Springfield SA 35's or... and now for something completely different, an HK P-30 LEM. I really liked the SA 35 I checked out at my LGS very much, it would work for what I need. Same with the HK, and I really like DAO pistols and revolvers. So SAO or DAO? My use is 2 gun shooting, the practical, let's get dirty, climb something, roll around in the dust type competition. I know the HK would handle it but I just love the feel and look of the BHP type pistol. Decisions...
This beast has been worked over before I became the new owner. Love this gun.
http://i.imgur.com/0GKEVRd.jpg (https://imgur.com/0GKEVRd)
http://i.imgur.com/jDGdJlW.jpg (https://imgur.com/jDGdJlW)
My vote HP, YMMV
PB
I mainly carry AIWB so I prefer a DA/SA pistol. My Cajunized CZ pistols are very reliable and very accurate.
https://i.imgur.com/ATsbakbh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/w1L25kjh.jpg
This beast has been worked over before I became the new owner. Love this gun.
http://i.imgur.com/0GKEVRd.jpg (https://imgur.com/0GKEVRd)
http://i.imgur.com/jDGdJlW.jpg (https://imgur.com/jDGdJlW)
My vote HP, YMMV
PB
Well, yeah, my vote too - its gorgeous!
Andy
https://i.imgur.com/w1L25kjh.jpg
The 07 is very accurate, reliable and easy to get a good trigger job. $8 for a hammer spring is all it took.
To the CZ75 (and similar pistol) owners - did you have to "train through" the reduced slide grasping area, or is is simply not an issue?
I notice it, nothing more, but I transition through quite a few pistols and have never manipulated the CZ75 in a hurry, under stress, or even wearing gloves.
Andy
To the CZ75 (and similar pistol) owners - did you have to "train through" the reduced slide grasping area, or is is simply not an issue?
I notice it, nothing more, but I transition through quite a few pistols and have never manipulated the CZ75 in a hurry, under stress, or even wearing gloves.
Andy
I shot my '91 Pre-B exclusively for many years and never once considered the reduced size of the slide a hinderance.
To the CZ75 (and similar pistol) owners - did you have to "train through" the reduced slide grasping area, or is is simply not an issue?
I notice it, nothing more, but I transition through quite a few pistols and have never manipulated the CZ75 in a hurry, under stress, or even wearing gloves.
Andy
I don't recall the 75b slide ever being an issue while the Walther CCP slide(more of a typical size) manipulation was kind of awkward to me due to the feel of the loading cycle.
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