View Full Version : M&P45c vs. HK45c range report
Recently my father picked up an M&P45c with thumb safety, and I made it to the range with him for the first time since he bought it. I have been interested in this gun for awhile because I prefer mid size handguns (G19, HK45c, P2000, etc) for use in a dual role as a home defense weapon and CCW.
I've been carrying an HK45c since last February when they were released, but I've been looking for something to potentially replace it. I shoot it well, and it's been 100% reliable and feeds any type or shape of JHP without even hinting at slowing down. I do have a few complaints though that I'll rank minor/major:
1. Major: The light rail does not fit any full size light out there. You can make a TLR-1/2 fit by moving the 1913 rail adapter further back in the light and duct taping it in place. This is less than ideal though, and I'd prefer being able to use the set screw with it. Also, while the TLR-1 is a good light, I'd also like to have the option of using other full size lights too.
2. Minor: The mags are expensive and going up. Last rumor I heard said that H&K was increasing them to $60 each.
3. Minor for now, could be major if something breaks: Parts are expensive. I looked into getting a spare recoil assembly and some other critical parts from H&K like a hammer, sear, and other internal springs, and the cost was going to be close to $200 if they even had it in stock. If they didn't, there was no telling how long it would be until they'd get them in from Germany.
4. Minor: There is a serious lack of laser capability for H&K's. If you don't have one mounted to the rail there isn't an option for you. I would prefer to put CT grips on a carry gun, and the M&P makes this very easy because it doesn't add bulk to the grip like the glock version. I'm aware that there is no CT model for the M&P45c yet, but i'm sure it will happen eventually.
When the M&P45c was announced, I thought that it could be a potential replacement here because it addresses each of the issues above. The only potential downside to the M&P is that it is not as "proven" as H&K USP based handguns. Also, I had no idea what the shootability of the M&P45c would be like compared to the H&K which is very accurate and has a very gentle recoil for a polymer .45.
In overall build quality, I feel like the M&P series is as nice as H&K. The internal metal chassis that connects the 4 rails is nice, and the mags "eject" out of the gun the same way that the H&K mags do. This is something I really prefer to the sluggish movement of Glock mags. The mag release is easier for me to activate than the Glock mag release, and I can do it without adjusting my grip. The finish is nice, the machining on this one is very smooth with no weird tool marks on the inside of the slide. The palm swell grip is also something I really prefer, and I've added a hogue universal grip sleeve to the H&K45c to get this feel in that gun. It's nice to have that palm swell inherent in the M&P design.
Yesterday my father and I headed out with about 400 rounds of .45 to work on breaking in the M&P and compare it to the H&K side by side. The M&P is a thumb safety model that is completely stock for now. He has an appointment at Burwell to have the trigger worked on and has a set of Warren tactical 2 dot's to put on it after the first range session if it doesn't have any issues. The H&K has Heinie straight 8 night sights with a 0.140" rear notch. I've found this notch width to be my preference on ~4" barrelled guns as I have a 0.156" notch on my G19 and think that it is too wide, and an older set with 0.125" width notch that was a little too hard to acquire the front sight quickly for follow up shots.
In shooting, I found the recoil of the M&P to be a bit harsher than the H&K. The H&K45c is really in my opinion the softest shooting .45 that I've felt compared to a stock Colt XSE, a sig 220, a G30, an XD45, and now this M&P45c. Something very interesting though was that the muzzle did jump higher than the M&P45c despite the softer recoil. I am used to the way the H&K shoots though after carrying it and shooting with it for the last year, so I was slightly quicker on follow up shots, but the M&P had a lot of potential here. By the end of the ~200 or so rounds I shot through it, I was starting to move pretty quickly with it. I did not have any FTF or FTE's with either gun, but I did have an issue with the safety on the M&P45c. On a few mag changes, when I would drop the slide with the slide stop/release, I unintentionally engaged the safety. On the first occurrence it took me about 3-4 seconds to figure out what was wrong. The safety is very easy to activate or deactivate. Also, about the safeties, I am able to ride the safety on the HK45c and have never an issue decocking it under recoil like some people have, whether i'm shooting one handed or two handed. Also, it is a hard enough safety to activate and the placement of the slide stop levers are far enough out of the way that I have never had the issue of unintentially activating it when manipulating the slide stop.
Accuracy on the M&P45c was also excellent. We started out shooting at paper and it took me a few mags to get adjusted to the trigger, but after that it was very accurate. Shooting 3" plates at 25 yards unsupported was pretty easy (as it is with the HK45c), so I don't think the M&P gives up much accuracy at all to the H&K. I would love to bench rest them both and measure the group size, but if it can I can hit the 3" plates from that far then I'm pretty happy with it.
So after all that, my father has decided he wants to stick to 9mm and is going to sell the M&P. I am considering buying it from him because it does address all of my complaints with the HK45c, and it would serve as a great dual purpose home defense and CCW, especially with the extended 14 round mags in it in the nightstand. I would remove the thumb safety though. It is still a hard decision because the H&K has been absolutely flawless and has a great feel to it. Overall I think these are the two best polymer mid sized .45's available today though and it's tough to go wrong with either one.
Interesting. Just to be clear, you are talking about the compact M&P 45 not the mid-size right? Because I wasn't aware the 14 round S&W mag would fit in the compact. It's enough of a monstrosity in the mid or full size. The M&P Compact leaves my pinky finger dangling which puts it out of the running right away but I do like the mid-size M&P quite alot.
I sure can't disagree with anything you said about the HK45c. It's a great pistol but HK really needs to do something about spare parts availability. I assume you are aware there are 10 round mags for the HK45c? They fit quite well. Personally I feel the Hk is a step up in materials and fit and finish quality over the M&P but not by much.
Thanks for the detailed write up givo08! I have the HK45c as well and am very interested in checking out the M&P.
Interesting. Just to be clear, you are talking about the compact M&P 45 not the mid-size right? Because I wasn't aware the 14 round S&W mag would fit in the compact. It's enough of a monstrosity in the mid or full size. The M&P Compact leaves my pinky finger dangling which puts it out of the running right away but I do like the mid-size M&P quite alot.
I sure can't disagree with anything you said about the HK45c. It's a great pistol but HK really needs to do something about spare parts availability. I assume you are aware there are 10 round mags for the HK45c? They fit quite well. Personally I feel the Hk is a step up in materials and fit and finish quality over the M&P but not by much.
I am talking about the compact M&P45 and not the mid size. I have not tried one of the 14 round M&P Mags in the M&P45c but assumed it fit and just stuck out pretty far. I am also aware of the HK45 10 rounders fitting in the HK45c.
As an aside, I am strongly considering trying out the P2000 in LEM as well. It solves issue #1 that I have with the HK45c light rail, as it can fit TLR-1's, X300's, and any other full size light without modification to the light. The P2k fits me more comfortably than any other handgun I've shot, and going to 9mm would be a plus for me from a recoil/follow up shot and ammo training cost perspective. I also like the H&K lever mag release slightly more than a button release, especially if I can get an oversized one made for the 45c and put it on the P2k. The P2k would also be a bit lighter to carry around than the M&P45c or HK45c. I would still have the issue of more expensive/harder to find parts, expensive mags, and no laser grip options, but I can live with these more easily than not having light mounting options.
Interesting. Just to be clear, you are talking about the compact M&P 45 not the mid-size right? Because I wasn't aware the 14 round S&W mag would fit in the compact. It's enough of a monstrosity in the mid or full size. The M&P Compact leaves my pinky finger dangling which puts it out of the running right away but I do like the mid-size M&P quite alot.
I sure can't disagree with anything you said about the HK45c. It's a great pistol but HK really needs to do something about spare parts availability. I assume you are aware there are 10 round mags for the HK45c? They fit quite well. Personally I feel the Hk is a step up in materials and fit and finish quality over the M&P but not by much.
It certainly fits....just sticks out a long way. Looks a bit ridiculous.
It certainly fits....just sticks out a long way. Looks a bit ridiculous.
HK also makes a 10 round magazine for the HK45c and USPc .45 with extended baseplate so the magazine fits flush.
Littlelebowski
12-28-08, 12:47
Overall build quality on the Smith is just as good as the HK....that's priceless :D So what are you HK owners paying for again?
Overall build quality on the Smith is just as good as the HK....that's priceless :D So what are you HK owners paying for again?
Well, that's his opinion...I disagree..I've got a HK USP 9mm and a M&P45 and I'm having trouble with the M&P..I had the sights changed by Grant to some Heinie straight 8's and I'm having a hard time hitting anything beyond about 15yds,(IMO this should be no problem with a .45 at this range)I've been shooting at pop cans, and once past about 15yds, hitting them is iffy. I've been using my loads which work very well in my Kimber, S.A. Milspec, Sig P-220, in the M&P I'm shooting low...I'm kinda dissapointed with it. I'm not sure if it's the sights or me or the M&P, Recoil is harsh as well,(load is 4.2gr titegroup, with a 200gr LSWC, OAL 1.250.and some 230gr LRN's with another load I can't recall right off the top of my head..) At this point I'm not very happy with it, and If I can't get it to shoot to point of aim beyond 15yds, it's going down the road like my XD45 did, and this will be another pistol I'll cross off and put on my don't buy list....it's not living up to the hype...At least my USP shoots well beyond 15yds, and usually hits what I point it at..
What part of the H&K build quality would you say is better than the S&W? I'm a big H&K fan because the newer guns (P30, P2k, HK45c, and HK45) fit me better than anything else on the market today, but I'm not a kool-aid drinker that thinks the high price tag = better quality. Both have steel guide rods, solid small parts, large extractors, good machining with no tool marks, similar finish (although I think the small parts finish on the H&K's is terrible as they lose the finish after minor handling), polished feed ramps, mags that eject forcefully from the gun, and steel sights from the factory. How else would you rate build quality?
One of the areas that the H&K's excel in is very good mechanical accuracy. I found the M&P to be at least close to equal in this regard in the limited testing of hitting 3" plates at 25 yards.
Again, I'm still up in the air on whether or not i'd buy this one off my father, because it is hard replacing a gun that I've gotten pretty good with and have proven out to be reliable over a lot of shooting, but the light rail issue has really gotten on my nerves recently with the only solutions being a duct taped 1913 adapter put in the wrong slot on a TLR-1 or an insight X2 that doesn't have the lumen output or battery life of a full size light.
So the pop psychology assumption is that HK $$ equal kool-aid drinkers? Good luck with that.
Well, that's his opinion...I disagree..I've got a HK USP 9mm and a M&P45 and I'm having trouble with the M&P..I had the sights changed by Grant to some Heinie straight 8's and I'm having a hard time hitting anything beyond about 15yds,(IMO this should be no problem with a .45 at this range)I've been shooting at pop cans, and once past about 15yds, hitting them is iffy. I've been using my loads which work very well in my Kimber, S.A. Milspec, Sig P-220, in the M&P I'm shooting low...I'm kinda dissapointed with it. I'm not sure if it's the sights or me or the M&P, Recoil is harsh as well,(load is 4.2gr titegroup, with a 200gr LSWC, OAL 1.250.and some 230gr LRN's with another load I can't recall right off the top of my head..) At this point I'm not very happy with it, and If I can't get it to shoot to point of aim beyond 15yds, it's going down the road like my XD45 did, and this will be another pistol I'll cross off and put on my don't buy list....it's not living up to the hype...At least my USP shoots well beyond 15yds, and usually hits what I point it at..
Well Ralph, I would imagine you have a trigger control issue if it is shooting low. Have someone else you know to be a good shot shoot it and see what happens.:)
Well Ralph, I would imagine you have a trigger control issue if it is shooting low. Have someone else you know to be a good shot shoot it and see what happens.:)
No, I haven't..but it does seem odd that when I was out shooting the other day, I had 2 pistols with me, the M&P which I had shot before, and the HK USP, 9mm. I had never shot any HK pistol until then, Yet I was able to do very well with it (It also has a LEM trigger) I was hitting pop cans out as far as 35yds offhand.. 15yd shot were easy, I don't know what's going on, But I was easily able to shoot the HK well, and I had to struggle to get the M&P to shoot ok... I've been shooting .45 for over 20yrs, I've got 3 other .45's so I'm no stranger to the .45acp, But so far, I'm not impressed with the M&P...
So the pop psychology assumption is that HK $$ equal kool-aid drinkers? Good luck with that.
No, i think you misunderstood me or I didn't come off the way i intended with that comment. I'm trying to get across the point that while i'm a fan of H&K and do consider them high quality, I can look at a gun that costs half as much and for the objective things that I can observe that I pointed out in my previous posts, state my opinion that the quality is equal regardless of price tag.
I never said that people who spend money on HK = kool aid drinkers. There are a lot of people out there that drink the kool-aid of whatever brand they are a fan of and can't objectively look at another.
What part of the H&K build quality would you say is better than the S&W? I'm a big H&K fan because the newer guns (P30, P2k, HK45c, and HK45) fit me better than anything else on the market today, but I'm not a kool-aid drinker that thinks the high price tag = better quality. Both have steel guide rods, solid small parts, large extractors, good machining with no tool marks, similar finish (although I think the small parts finish on the H&K's is terrible as they lose the finish after minor handling), polished feed ramps, mags that eject forcefully from the gun, and steel sights from the factory. How else would you rate build quality?
One of the areas that the H&K's excel in is very good mechanical accuracy. I found the M&P to be at least close to equal in this regard in the limited testing of hitting 3" plates at 25 yards.
Again, I'm still up in the air on whether or not i'd buy this one off my father, because it is hard replacing a gun that I've gotten pretty good with and have proven out to be reliable over a lot of shooting, but the light rail issue has really gotten on my nerves recently with the only solutions being a duct taped 1913 adapter put in the wrong slot on a TLR-1 or an insight X2 that doesn't have the lumen output or battery life of a full size light.
Well Right off the bat the trigger in my USP is better (it's a LEM) It came this way when I bought it, That alone puts it about a lightyear ahead of the M&P trigger, and for me, it hits what I aim at, something my M&P has'nt been doing real well for me. I'm not concerned about putting a light on it, I probably never will, so, that's a moot point. Fit and finish are about the same since both of mine are new I've no idea which one's finish will hold up better or longer. I look at it this way, HK invented polymer framed pistols about 30-40yrs ago. Before Glock was even thought about. S&W has been at it for about 5, who would you say knows more about them??
Did the M&P45 shoot low before changing the sights out to Heinie's? I had to get a different height front sight for my G19 straight 8's after it initially shot low.
I do like the LEM trigger too, and am considering a P2k in LEM to replace the HK45c since it will fit a full size light. I am a little concerned with the trigger reset being longer than a LEM on a USP or Hk45 series gun though, but I think the trigger has a great feel.
How was the gun zeroed when the new sights were installed, Ralph? Complaining that a gun with new sights doesn't shoot to POA is, pardon the pun, missing the point.
Which isn't to say the M&P45 is a perfect gun for you. If you don't like the way it feels or don't like the trigger, and you've got another gun that works better for you, it's an easy decision.
How was the gun zeroed when the new sights were installed, Ralph? Complaining that a gun with new sights doesn't shoot to POA is, pardon the pun, missing the point.
Which isn't to say the M&P45 is a perfect gun for you. If you don't like the way it feels or don't like the trigger, and you've got another gun that works better for you, it's an easy decision.
Well, I'm not sure..I only shot a few rounds through it before I switched sights and then it was about 3wks before I got to shoot it again, (I'm working alot of OT) It seemed to shoot well with the Novacks that were on it what little I shot it with them on it...I'm wondering if the Heinies aren't too low... I've no shortage of handguns, and you're right I'm not liking the harsh recoil, or the trigger (which has smoothed up considerably from new) If I can't get it to shoot to my liking, it'll go down the road.. I don't keep handguns that I can't shoot well, there's no point in it..
Well, I'm not sure..I only shot a few rounds through it before I switched sights and then it was about 3wks before I got to shoot it again, (I'm working alot of OT) It seemed to shoot well with the Novacks that were on it what little I shot it with them on it...I'm wondering if the Heinies aren't too low... I've no shortage of handguns, and you're right I'm not liking the harsh recoil, or the trigger (which has smoothed up considerably from new) If I can't get it to shoot to my liking, it'll go down the road.. I don't keep handguns that I can't shoot well, there's no point in it..
That's the benefit of working lots of OT.:D
That's the benefit of working lots of OT.:D
And that's about the only benefit...I'ts 4:50am as I'm typing this...getting ready for another long day....
i wasn't actually referring to your comment. I got what you were saying. I was referring to Littlelebowski.
No, i think you misunderstood me or I didn't come off the way i intended with that comment. I'm trying to get across the point that while i'm a fan of H&K and do consider them high quality, I can look at a gun that costs half as much and for the objective things that I can observe that I pointed out in my previous posts, state my opinion that the quality is equal regardless of price tag.
I never said that people who spend money on HK = kool aid drinkers. There are a lot of people out there that drink the kool-aid of whatever brand they are a fan of and can't objectively look at another.
i wasn't actually referring to your comment. I got what you were saying. I was referring to Littlelebowski.
Ahh, nevermind then :).
I feel like for all the money that a serious shooter is going to put into his/her primary self defense pistol (holsters, mags, ammo, training, range memberships, etc), the last thing that should cause you to compromise on what handgun you get is a $200 difference. Pick what fits you best and what you are most comfortable with regardless of the price. Obviously, there is going to be a limit somewhere on what gets too expensive, but if we're talking about the difference between an H&K and an M&P, the difference is less than a case of ammo. It's a little different for the casual shooter that puts a couple mags through the gun a year if that. Then a $200-300 difference looks a lot bigger.
True. By the time I add decent sights to a Glock, extended slide stop, some trigger work, butt plug, Vickers mag release I've raised my cost by a significant amount. I do a trigger job and better sights on an M&P and nothing on HK45/c. I like those big blocky sights just the way they are and am fine with the factory single action trigger.
Alpha Sierra
12-30-08, 12:57
Well, that's his opinion...I disagree..I've got a HK USP 9mm and a M&P45 and I'm having trouble with the M&P..I had the sights changed by Grant to some Heinie straight 8's and I'm having a hard time hitting anything beyond about 15yds,(IMO this should be no problem with a .45 at this range)I've been shooting at pop cans, and once past about 15yds, hitting them is iffy. I've been using my loads which work very well in my Kimber, S.A. Milspec, Sig P-220, in the M&P I'm shooting low...I'm kinda dissapointed with it. I'm not sure if it's the sights or me or the M&P, Recoil is harsh as well,(load is 4.2gr titegroup, with a 200gr LSWC, OAL 1.250.and some 230gr LRN's with another load I can't recall right off the top of my head..) At this point I'm not very happy with it, and If I can't get it to shoot to point of aim beyond 15yds, it's going down the road like my XD45 did, and this will be another pistol I'll cross off and put on my don't buy list....it's not living up to the hype...At least my USP shoots well beyond 15yds, and usually hits what I point it at..
None of your issues with your M&P are attributable to how well it is made and how durable it is.
They are all attributable to the sights and/or your subjective opinions of how it shoots.
None of your issues with your M&P are attributable to how well it is made and how durable it is.
They are all attributable to the sights and/or your subjective opinions of how it shoots.
As far as quality of build and how durable the M&P's are only time will tell, You're right, I never implied they have problems with build quality or durabilty. I'm aware of the possible sight problem, and intend to test by setting up a target at 15 measured yds, and shoot from a bench using several types of ammo including factory. My goal is to see if it does shoot low like I suspect, and exactly how low it does shoot. Then, I'll contact Grant, and see if Heinie makes lower /taller front/rear sights to correct... I am, however, not crazy about the trigger, (Although it has improved considerably since I first bought it.) and I'm really not thrilled with the recoil either, My 1911's have spoiled me in that dept... I'm not giving up on it just yet.. it is frustrating...
I looked at a 9mm LEM P2000 today and loved it. 3 mags, night sights for $799.00 The only thing that stopped me from buying it on the spot was those tiny little mag release buttons. I have big hands and fingers and trying to punch that button sucked compared to the Hk45/c/P30.
After owning and shooting the M&P45 (full size) and HK45C, I prefer the HK. It fits my hand a little better, and although the M&P is in all likelihood well engineered, the USP type design has many more successful miles on it. Recoil seems about the same for both pistols. I know that the standard M&P is about .5 inches longer than the HK45C, but otherwise dimensionally they're very similar.
For me it was worth the extra money. Good handgun fit has always been important to me.
if I had to choose it would be HK as well. Reeks of quality. The nice thing about the 45c is that you can get some 10 round mags and you've got two pistols, one for carry and one for everything else. i carry with the 8 round mag and my spare in a mag pouch is the 10 round.
I looked at a 9mm LEM P2000 today and loved it. 3 mags, night sights for $799.00 The only thing that stopped me from buying it on the spot was those tiny little mag release buttons. I have big hands and fingers and trying to punch that button sucked compared to the Hk45/c/P30.
It's funny you say that because I ended up ordering a P2k 9mm LEM last week from Clyde's Armory. I do struggle a little more with the mag release on the P2k than the 45c, but I really like the feel and balance of this gun more than the 45c. The slide is lighter and feels much less top heavy, and the grip fits my hand a little better than the 45c. I'm going to try to fit the 45c's mag release lever on the P2k, and if it works I will try to order a spare one from H&K to use on the P2k.
The p2k is also fits a fullsize light and fits in the VM2 holster that I have for the 45c. I am going to hang onto both and most likely will have the 45c converted to LEM as well. I am really starting to like this trigger system.
One issue on the p2k is it has a longer trigger reset than the 45c. It's closer to a sig reset without the SRT. It's not that bad though just a little different than what i'm used to. I can still shoot, reset, and have the trigger staged for 2nd shot before recovering from recoil.
Littlelebowski
01-03-09, 12:28
So the pop psychology assumption is that HK $$ equal kool-aid drinkers? Good luck with that.
Since you say you were referring to me, my comment did not mention "HK kool-aid drinkers" once. Methinks you're just a bit sensitive about that. I was referring to the high cost of the HKs. To sum up, I don't think the HKs are worth that much more than other pistol; I think their higher cost is just as laughable as their "night sights" you have to charge up with ambient light or a flashlight.
Since you say you were referring to me, my comment did not mention "HK kool-aid drinkers" once. Methinks you're just a bit sensitive about that. I was referring to the high cost of the HKs. To sum up, I don't think the HKs are worth that much more than other pistol; I think their higher cost is just as laughable as their "night sights" you have to charge up with ambient light or a flashlight.
I agree with you about the night sights..But, that's not HK's fault. The German gov't forbids the use of radioactive isotopes in items being sold to the public...So, that's why the glow in the dark sights..The USP I recently bought came with Meprolight night sights installed, By Hk here,in the U.S. As far as the higher cost..well, you get what you pay for, look at the frame on a M&P, notice at the front of the frame by the muzzel, it drops away from the slide..This is a common defect on M&P's look at a HK..they don't have that..and if you're up to some reading go over to the M&P forums and there they have a entire forum devoted to fixing problems people are having with theit M&P's Shooting low, wrong front sight height, front sight not centered from factory, repeated breaking of strikers, on and on, now got to a HK forum and see how many problems they're having...not nearly as many.....again this is the difference between a $450-550 handgun and a $750-850 handgun, you're paying for the quality. With my HK, I was able to clean it up, go to the range and load it and immediately start hitting just about anything I pointed it at,Up until then, I had never shot a HK pistol..With my M&P, I'm still trying to overcome my shooting low/left with it.. Laughable?? I don't think it's funny...S&W has got a potential winner on their hands here if they don't screw it up, putting a decent trigger on them from the factory would be very easy to do, and probably a good place to start... Something else myHK didn't need....
Its not just the German government but many governments that HK sells to.
As to M&P's, as far as I can tell they have fixed all their issues. I have quite a few M&P's and they have all been reliable. They are a step below Hk in fit, finish, and general parts quality but not enough to matter if you are price sensitive. Plus Smith's CS is much better than HK's.
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