View Full Version : How The Hells Angels Actually Works
Spent multiple years under cover trying to crack that group. He seems to have developed a certain level of respect for them, how/why he's still alive I don't know:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyTxdT4u60I
ViniVidivici
03-02-23, 08:15
Hunter Thompson's endeavors in this were epic as well.
Averageman
03-02-23, 09:03
I remember watching a late night show called "Good Night America" where Geraldo Rivera interviewed the Hells Angels.
I was about to leave the room and my Dad said "Wait, Geraldo is about to get his ass kicked. He did too.
Pacific5th
03-02-23, 09:55
I remember watching a late night show called "Good Night America" where Geraldo Rivera interviewed the Hells Angels.
I was about to leave the room and my Dad said "Wait, Geraldo is about to get his ass kicked. He did too.
Good, I haven’t liked that guy since he showed a map or something on TV during the Iraq invasion causing a good chunk of the 1rst Marine Div to get up and move. I had just layed down for my first sleep
In days.
Averageman
03-02-23, 10:14
Good, I haven’t liked that guy since he showed a map or something on TV during the Iraq invasion causing a good chunk of the 1rst Marine Div to get up and move. I had just layed down for my first sleep
In days.
He did a big meet and great after the war, shaking hands and stuff.
There was a lot of buttcrack on many of those hands.
He shouldn't ever eat pizza again.
They're are a lot of Hells Angels in my precinct. One of their main clubhouses was in my beat for a good amount if time.
For the most part they leave police alone. Usually very respectful with us and every interaction Ive had with them was quite pleasant.
Don't get me wrong, they definitely are criminals. They will beat and murder people. But it's not random citizens. Id much rather have them move into my neighborhood than Crips.
They're are a lot of Hells Angels in my precinct. One of their main clubhouses was in my beat for a good amount if time.
For the most part they leave police alone. Usually very respectful with us and every interaction Ive had with them was quite pleasant.
Don't get me wrong, they definitely are criminals. They will beat and murder people. But it's not random citizens. Id much rather have them move into my neighborhood than Crips.
Exactly. They don't like attention. In 2001 my business was burgled in the middle of the night by two Hells Angels prospects. We knew one of the original Hells Angels founders and he was a regular customer. We had a sit down with him and my mom chewed his ass since she knew his mom. He apologized and the issue was taken care of. We had another issue in 2021 with another prospect caught on camera shop lifting, but before I could do anything about it he self eliminated by a drug overdose. I've found they really want to lay low and off the radar. The few I see riding around with their vests on are all now senior citizens as well. I'm not sure how much they are growing around here.
Heavyweight
03-02-23, 13:53
I only have had one encounter with this group in my life. When I was in school back in '92 my brand new wife ran into car trouble one evening in a very bad part of Fort Worth. On the freeway no less. Cell phones were very new and very expensive. My wife was basically at the mercy of any good Samaritan that might be willing to help. Almost immediately, a Hell's Angel pulled up behind her. He popped a couple of flares and asked my wife if she was OK. My wife was terrified. This dude fit the bill for a stereotypical biker right down to the beard and long greasy hair. My wife said she was fine and didn't need anything....she was going to walk to a pay phone, all good. Mr. Hell's Angel (his name was Dennis) said no way. He wasn't comfortable leaving her alone in that part of town. He told her to hop on his bike and he would take her to a safe place to use a phone. I'm sure he saw the look of terror on my wife's face....and as God is my witness he pulled out an old Colt detective special from his saddle bag, showed her it was loaded and handed it to my wife. He told her to put it in her coat pocket and if at any time she felt threatened she could just shoot him! So she said what the hell and he took her to a bar called the SuSu Lounge in west Fort Worth where she called me. Of course I raced up there but I shouldn't have been worried at all. Dennis and my wife were playing pool and had a pitcher of cold beer. He wouldn't leave until I got there. When he found out I was a poor med student he arranged for my wife's car to be towed to his friend's garage. Turned out to be a bad thermostat....when I went to pay the guy wouldn't take my money.
I know these guys have a rep for being drug dealers and murderers. But you could have fooled my that night.
Stay safe
Heavyweight
Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
WillieThom
03-02-23, 16:51
People should look Jay Dobbins??… Dobyns?? Whatever who cares… look him up. Interesting dude for sure. Some say hero, others say villain. Who knows?
Good, I haven’t liked that guy since he showed a map or something on TV during the Iraq invasion causing a good chunk of the 1rst Marine Div to get up and move. I had just layed down for my first sleep
In days.
I remember that live. Couldn't F believe it.
"Here we are now and here is where we are going."
titsonritz
03-02-23, 17:42
I remember that live. Couldn't F believe it.
"Here we are now and here is where we are going."
The dude is a full on idiot and it shows every time he opens his mouth.
Oh and 81's aren't the biggest scumbags on 2 wheels, at least they have a code.
I've had quite a bit of interaction with bikers. Had neighbors (twice) who were in HA affiliated clubs. "Hung out" loosely with a few HA's and affiliates. Ventura, Simi, Ojai, down in AZ, etc. Hell, I was even a bouncer at a biker bar for a while. I have always gotten along well with the bikers I have known. Some "mostly" legit citizens, some were 1%'er outlaw bikers.
I know some of them were seriously bad guys. I just never saw that side of them. I have heard folks say that about "Mob/Mafia" guys. Might be true with gangbangers or every other flavor of criminal.
P2Vaircrewman
03-02-23, 18:29
My wife and I rubbed shoulder with the Angeles during my 30 years of un-affiliated riding, never had any issues with them. Same for the Banditos' but I did witness them apply corrective action on prospects.
I was a slickback in red and orange territory for many years. MCs have a unique code that should be followed when you encounter them. There are certain things you do and don't do, say and don't say, and if you respect these things, they will respect you back, and be a great bunch to hang out with. If you don't, and granted you may do so accidentally, you may wish you never got out of bed that morning.
Averageman
03-03-23, 20:05
I've got a problem with anyone who can go undercover with a false Identity to rat out people whom he's taken a blood oath with.
I really DGAF about how good the cause may be.
You swear, you swore.
I've got a problem with anyone who can go undercover with a false Identity to rat out people whom he's taken a blood oath with.
I really DGAF about how good the cause may be.
You swear, you swore.
I generally agree with you on most things, but F that. We infiltrate the mafia and lots of other shitbags, I don't care "what pretend words or rituals" we engaged in.
Criminal gang that will often turn on eachother to stay out of serious time like all of them.
They always say they want "respect". No, they want people to be scared of them and think they're cool. What kind of person wants other, normal people to be scared of them? Bullies. So, they are criminals and bullies.
Lots of cool biker groups that aren't criminals & bullies.
I don't understand why an adult would want to join a a large, criminal gang. Rules, bosses, taxes, jail, injury, death. And you won't get wealthy. And even if you did it won't be for long and everything will snap back on you.
I've got a problem with anyone who can go undercover with a false Identity to rat out people whom he's taken a blood oath with.
I really DGAF about how good the cause may be.
You swear, you swore.
I get it.
You're on a mission, you lie to the enemy / criminal like your life depends on it because it does.
Would you lie / swear an allegiance to say, ISIS or MS-13 if you were undercover working against them? I'd call that bravery.
I get it.
You're on a mission, you lie to the enemy / criminal like your life depends on it because it does.
Would you lie / swear an allegiance to say, ISIS or MS-13 if you were undercover working against them? I'd call that bravery.
I would say original oath of office to agency cancels out any "oath" to the criminal organization you are working.
I don't understand why an adult would want to join a a large, criminal gang. Rules, bosses, taxes, jail, injury, death. And you won't get wealthy. And even if you did it won't be for long and everything will snap back on you.
All day long, unless you happen to be the biggest shitbag in the room and are willing to kill all the people who trust you the most.
I would say original oath of office to agency cancels out any "oath" to the criminal organization you are working.
That's a good way to look at it. I'm sure Muslim terrorists, Chinese spies, etc. all do the same when working against the US.
I would say original oath of office to agency cancels out any "oath" to the criminal organization you are working.
An oath either means something or it doesn't. To say one cancels the other makes the whole thing pointless.
An oath either means something or it doesn't. To say one cancels the other makes the whole thing pointless.
So a person trying to saves kids joins a secret pedo group in an investigative capacity, but his new "first rule of kiddie rapers" oath now prevents him from doing so?
Sorry, that is BS. If I was working in that capacity, there are good people and bad people (and by bad I mean truly horrific), and I would do everything in my power to not hurt good people, even unintentionally, but I would do everything I could to completely **** over and destroy bad people. And telling them lies go gain their confidence is the least of the things I'd be willing to do.
And if the bad people of the world, who prey on the good, want to declare me a "bad man" because I broke my word...well I wouldn't want them to think anything good about me or feel like we have anything in common.
Now if we got to the point where there were so many good people in the world that you simply had to identify the remaining bad people and there was no need to do anything covert, then I'd happily update my conduct. But we aren't in that world and I don't think we ever have been.
That's a good way to look at it. I'm sure Muslim terrorists, Chinese spies, etc. all do the same when working against the US.
Of course they do. And if I could have prevented 9-11 or something similar by simply pretending allegiance with a bunch of terrorist pieces of shit, that wouldn't even be an ethical dilemma on par with the treatment of cattle that become our cheeseburgers. To the best of my ability I'd have ****ed over those people so hard they couldn't harm anyone if the opportunity presented itself.
So a person trying to saves kids joins a secret pedo group in an investigative capacity, but his new "first rule of kiddie rapers" oath now prevents him from doing so?
Sorry, that is BS. If I was working in that capacity, there are good people and bad people (and by bad I mean truly horrific), and I would do everything in my power to not hurt good people, even unintentionally, but I would do everything I could to completely **** over and destroy bad people. And telling them lies go gain their confidence is the least of the things I'd be willing to do.
Your earlier statement about one oath cancelling another appears different. Rather you seem to be saying that it is ethical to break or disregard an oath made to bad people because they are bad people, and any other oaths are irrelevant. Is that a fair restatement?
Your earlier statement about one oath cancelling another appears different. Rather you seem to be saying that it is ethical to break or disregard an oath made to bad people because they are bad people, and any other oaths are irrelevant. Is that a fair restatement?
I was speaking in context of any oath I would make and keep, so that would be for example to the military or LE or something like that. And in keeping with the role of fulfilling that oath any subsequent oaths I may take to maintain a covert status would be irrelevant. But it's still about good and bad people, if I had made an oath to an LE agency and I was asked to act in "bad faith" in a way which would harm "good people" without a significant "good" outcome such as preventing a terrorist attack that could potentially kill thousands, then I would have to break my oath and sever ties.
So even oaths to presumably "good" organizations are not absolutes. But to answer your specific question, I think both statements are representative of times when an oath can be broken. And maybe this example can explain it best.
I knowingly, join the mafia, with the intention of being in the mafia, I have pledged myself to a criminal organization and I become subject to the rules of having taken such an oath. I would consequently also become a bad person.
If I am a member of the FBI who has covertly infiltrated the mafia in order to interdict a child sex trafficking operation, any oath or pledge I make to the criminal organization is irrelevant as my true oath is to destroy them.
By the same token when Islamic terrorists or state sponsored spies pretend to be something else and cause tremendous harm to innocent people and this country, the least thing I care about is they broke their word. I'm more angered by the fact that we often put very suspect people in positions of power because we want to prove we are open and accepting or because we put too much faith in things like an oath.
Nadal Hassan comes to mind, I'm sure he did a lot of harm before he started shooting up Ft. Hood when he was in charge of the psychiatric well being of combat veterans.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
03-06-23, 08:29
Some of you guys are interesting, thats for sure.
Anyone who has ever infiltrated criminal organizations, foreign enemy governments, etc, and had to swear an oath to their evil ways in order to do so, is dishonorable because they broke the evil oath.
You guys ought to really check your "true north" on your compass, as it is clearly off.
Thank God we have people brave enough to infiltrate groups of evil humans and bring them down.
Averageman
03-06-23, 08:42
Some of you guys are interesting, thats for sure.
Anyone who has ever infiltrated criminal organizations, foreign enemy governments, etc, and had to swear an oath to their evil ways in order to do so, is dishonorable because they broke the evil oath.
You guys ought to really check your "true north" on your compass, as it is clearly off.
Thank God we have people brave enough to infiltrate groups of evil humans and bring them down.
Here's my point, you don't go in there and just immeadiatly "Swear" an oath.
You're going to go through a vetting process that might last 18 months. If someone offers you drugs, you're going to do them, if someone offers you a Woman, you're going to screw her. You don't get to do this halfway, because halfway means your not going to get in to the Gang, or maybe end up getting killed.
So you're going to get very dirty, very compromised.
So you swore an Oath at your job. You swore an Oath to the Club you infiltraited and you're now sitting in Court swearing an Oath to tell the truth and nothing but the truth.
You likely did Dope, you likely were with their Women, you ate their food and drank with them. You embraced some segment of their lifestyle to get you where you are.
Naaahhh that's not how we do Law Enforcement.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
03-06-23, 08:46
Here's my point, you don't go in there and just immeadiatly "Swear" an oath.
You're going to go through a vetting process that might last 18 months. If someone offers you drugs, you're going to do them, if someone offers you a Woman, you're going to screw her. You don't get to do this halfway, because halfway means your not going to get in to the Gang, or maybe end up getting killed.
So you're going to get very dirty, very compromised.
So you swore an Oath at your job. You swore an Oath to the Club you infiltraited and you're now sitting in Court swearing an Oath to tell the truth and nothing but the truth.
You likely did Dope, you likely were with their Women, you ate their food and drank with them. You embraced some segment of their lifestyle to get you where you are.
Naaahhh that's not how we do Law Enforcement.
Thats not at all how that works. In fact, read Jay Dobbyn's book, "No Angel". I read it back in high school and was fascinated by the lengths he had to go to in order to stay clean, piss clean, etc.
Moreover, I happen to work with narcs of every level, undercover work is far more managed and supervised than you would believe.
Averageman
03-06-23, 08:58
Thats not at all how that works. In fact, read Jay Dobbyn's book, "No Angel". I read it back in high school and was fascinated by the lengths he had to go to in order to stay clean, piss clean, etc.
Moreover, I happen to work with narcs of every level, undercover work is far more managed and supervised than you would believe.
Back in the late 70's in Texas's Piney Woods, we had some NARC's operating that were totally out of control. Lots of very bad things happened.
They actually highly fabricated a Movie about it.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102820/?ref_=nm_flmg_t_42_act
All that drama at the end was very fabricated, no one knows who killed that Cop in the end and both sides had a reason to.
No, really this is dirty stuff,.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
03-06-23, 09:04
Back in the late 70's in Texas's Piney Woods, we had some NARC's operating that were totally out of control. Lots of very bad things happened.
They actually highly fabricated a Movie about it.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102820/?ref_=nm_flmg_t_42_act
All that drama at the end was very fabricated, no one knows who killed that Cop in the end and both sides had a reason to.
No, really this is dirty stuff,.
Thank you for your 1970s cite.
I’m not gonna measure dicks with you as you have already attempted to do “no really, this is dirty stuff”.
I’d encourage you to do some more research into the profession, and into the different levels of UC work, before claiming any recent knowledge.
And yep, there are dirty cops. I’ve investigated a few myself over the last decade.
And maybe read the book that this actual thread is about before citing your 1970 movie. You might even enjoy the book.
titsonritz
03-06-23, 13:29
Thats not at all how that works. In fact, read Jay Dobbyn's book, "No Angel". I read it back in high school and was fascinated by the lengths he had to go to in order to stay clean, piss clean, etc.
Moreover, I happen to work with narcs of every level, undercover work is far more managed and supervised than you would believe.
Damn what away to start a career. From Wiki...
Dobyns became a Special Agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) in 1987. Less than a week after beginning operational duty, he was taken hostage at gunpoint in the Tucson desert while serving an arrest warrant on a convicted felon who was recently released from prison. The suspect forced Dobyns into the driver seat of the officers' undercover car, which was immediately surrounded by the other agents with guns drawn. During a brief standoff, the agitated gunman repeatedly screamed at Dobyns to drive away. When Dobyns intentionally pulled the car keys from the ignition and dropped them to the floor, the assailant fired a single .38 caliber pistol bullet into Dobyns' lung, which exited his upper chest. The other ATF agents instantly opened fire from both sides of the car, killing the gunman. Critically wounded, Dobyns was rushed to a Tucson hospital, where Dr. Richard Carmona, who later became the 17th United States Surgeon General, performed emergency trauma surgery that saved Dobyns' life.
My FOL was a Hells Angel. Never met him, passed away before his time. Crazy crazy stories my wife tells after years of telling and there is always a new one.
PB
Some of you guys are interesting, thats for sure.
Anyone who has ever infiltrated criminal organizations, foreign enemy governments, etc, and had to swear an oath to their evil ways in order to do so, is dishonorable because they broke the evil oath.
You guys ought to really check your "true north" on your compass, as it is clearly off.
Thank God we have people brave enough to infiltrate groups of evil humans and bring them down.
I will take an oath, tell any lie, invent long back stories, if it means the demise of sick evil F's who plan to harm people, kids, etc for their own sick BS. This aint the Boy Scouts, it's reality and life and death. An oath a criminal gang, pedo circle, radical muzzy group, etc is all part of doing the ugly things needed to remove POS humans and would be the least of my concerns I broke their oaths.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
03-06-23, 17:26
I will take an oath, tell any lie, invent long back stories, if it means the demise of sick evil F's who plan to harm people, kids, etc for their own sick BS. This aint the Boy Scouts, it's reality and life and death. An oath a criminal gang, pedo circle, radical muzzy group, etc is all part of doing the ugly things needed to remove POS humans and would be the least of my concerns I broke their oaths.
Word. Taking down evil is a messy job, thank god for those who do it.
Word. Taking down evil is a messy job, thank god for those who do it.
If their oaths are for immoral evil causes or intent, I have zero issues with taking and then ignoring any oath they have. We take and keep oaths because they stand for something we believe in. Anything else is just lip service to make others believe you're part of their tribe.
I will take an oath, tell any lie, invent long back stories, if it means the demise of sick evil F's who plan to harm people, kids, etc for their own sick BS. This aint the Boy Scouts, it's reality and life and death. An oath a criminal gang, pedo circle, radical muzzy group, etc is all part of doing the ugly things needed to remove POS humans and would be the least of my concerns I broke their oaths.
Let's not forget we shoot these people without flinching, but we are supposed to be worried about their secret tree house "rules"?
Averageman
03-06-23, 19:11
I dunno, maybe it's just me, but even if I could do it, I wouldn't.
I dunno, maybe it's just me, but even if I could do it, I wouldn't.
I get where you are trying to come from. I understand oaths and codes.
But seriously, if you could have prevented Epstein from building pedo island by simply lying to that POS and gathering evidence you wouldn't have done it?
If you could save the life of one innocent person by ****ing over 10 POS dirtbag meth dealing bikers you wouldn't do it?
Averageman
03-06-23, 20:52
I get where you are trying to come from. I understand oaths and codes.
But seriously, if you could have prevented Epstein from building pedo island by simply lying to that POS and gathering evidence you wouldn't have done it?
If you could save the life of one innocent person by ****ing over 10 POS dirtbag meth dealing bikers you wouldn't do it?
It's not just Oath's and Codes, it's about how you are treating yourself.
Yes I would like to see Pedo's and Meth dealers pay the price, but I'm not going to hang out with you, eat your food, all while lying to your face. If I'm sharing a meal with a Drug Dealer or a Pedo, how long until that rubs off?
I'm sure that there have been a lot of advances in undercover work since the 70's. I would be anxious to know how you buy drugs and not do them, but whatever.
It's just the point of living a lie and eventually having that lie become you.
It's not just Oath's and Codes, it's about how you are treating yourself.
Yes I would like to see Pedo's and Meth dealers pay the price, but I'm not going to hang out with you, eat your food, all while lying to your face. If I'm sharing a meal with a Drug Dealer or a Pedo, how long until that rubs off?
I'm sure that there have been a lot of advances in undercover work since the 70's. I would be anxious to know how you buy drugs and not do them, but whatever.
It's just the point of living a lie and eventually having that lie become you.
Ironically I sort of feel the same. I couldn't live with myself if that was my job and I didn't save innocent people.
And yeah, doing UC work is probably the hardest thing a person can do because those people are the worst people on Earth. I don't think I could even meet with a dedicated group of child sex traffickers and not just start executing them. But guess how we dramatically weakened the mafia? A bunch of Donnie Brasco types had to go spend a lot of time hanging out with scumbags who do reprehensible shit and build a case.
And these aren't the harmless mafia types who amuse us in films and aren't really bad guys and only do cartage theft. These are the guys who will burn down the business you spent 15 years building IF their cut isn't big enough. These are the guys who practice murder, extortion, kidnapping and blackmail because it's profitable. They see everyone who isn't "them" as disposable people whose sole value is the amount of revenue they can generate for "them."
There is an expression among UC guys for those who start to feel remorse or sympathy for their targets, "Yeah...F those guys."
And yeah, it's always getting harder. It's why it's almost impossible to infiltrate the more powerful and violent cartels because no DEA guy is gonna execute an innocent person to prove his creds. But the cartels have no problem doing that all day long.
And Hell's Angels aren't just a biker club with a few bad apples. They are organized and "violent" criminals. They are sophisticated enough to try and not stay on radar, but their large scale drug operations, trafficking in stolen property and involvement in prostitution make that difficult. They destroy lives on a daily basis.
But they are smart enough to have a understanding of PR and spend some of those profits on social events where they try and portray themselves as nothing but a motorcycle club with a few bad apples that they aren't responsible for. If they wished, they have the organization to completely purge the criminal elements and activities from all chapters within a month, but that is the majority of their income that let's them be what they are and sustains the "lifestyle."
It's not just Oath's and Codes, it's about how you are treating yourself.
Yes I would like to see Pedo's and Meth dealers pay the price, but I'm not going to hang out with you, eat your food, all while lying to your face. If I'm sharing a meal with a Drug Dealer or a Pedo, how long until that rubs off?
I'm sure that there have been a lot of advances in undercover work since the 70's. I would be anxious to know how you buy drugs and not do them, but whatever.
It's just the point of living a lie and eventually having that lie become you.
But that's the point really, there's very few that can do that type of thing, and even fewer who can do it without it taking a massive toll on them. You must become the thing you're attempting to stop, and the line can get blurred. I'm just glad there's people able and willing to do it.
ThirdWatcher
03-10-23, 03:00
I can’t stand Geraldo, he’s a moron.
Best neighbor I ever had was a biker (never saw his colors so I don’t know what MC club he belonged to. Being WA, it could have be the Bandidos). Between the two of us living next door to each other (I was between marriages) we had no crime in our neighborhood.
Averageman
03-10-23, 15:14
I'm sitting here watching two trials, both had FBI undercover operatives and both are dirty. They've hidden evidence in the January 6th and the Proud Boys trials, they aren't giving the defense the evidence the FBI has gathered.
Hmmmm
Seems to me all of this double n'aught Spy business is corrupt all the way around and people go to the stand and lie about things.
No Thanks Man, I will go to hell my own way...
I'm sitting here watching two trials, both had FBI undercover operatives and both are dirty. They've hidden evidence in the January 6th and the Proud Boys trials, they aren't giving the defense the evidence the FBI has gathered.
Hmmmm
Seems to me all of this double n'aught Spy business is corrupt all the way around and people go to the stand and lie about things.
No Thanks Man, I will go to hell my own way...
That's one reason the mob, Hells Angels, etc simply see LE as a rival gang and have no respect for them.
I'm sitting here watching two trials, both had FBI undercover operatives and both are dirty. They've hidden evidence in the January 6th and the Proud Boys trials, they aren't giving the defense the evidence the FBI has gathered.
Hmmmm
Seems to me all of this double n'aught Spy business is corrupt all the way around and people go to the stand and lie about things.
No Thanks Man, I will go to hell my own way...
Corruption is corruption. One only needs like at Mike Nifong and the Duke LaCrosse case. But that has little or nothing to do with how various agencies work undercover or which oath takes precedence in the execution of duty. We have had Navy f'ing Deals who murdered a green beret in order to conceal their own theft of operational funds. Does that make everyone in special operations "corrupt" or is it simply a matter of some people can't maintain their shit when temptation presents itself.
There will always be good cops and bad cops.
There will always be good fed agents and bad fed agents.
There will always be good SOF guys and bad SOF guys.
The problem isn't now and never has been the sanctity of oaths, but the failure of some people who take them. Really the only relevant thing is you seem to have realized you are psychologically not suited for that kind of work which makes you fairly normal and in good company with the vast majority of the population that couldn't do that stuff either. I don't think I'd last 2 days undercover with seriously bad people. They'd either get me or I'd get a few of them before they got me.
The reality is UC is more reliable than informants, which is traditionally the main source of information. But it's a hell of a thing to try and do, especially long term. The Joe Pistones of the world are pretty uncommon.
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