View Full Version : CAG will take anyone?
I'd thought the pipeline for Delta was almost exclusively rangers and SF, or at least that was the case at one time. According to prior Unit member via Shawn R show, you can apply regardless of which branch you're in and CAG is a mixed bag as to prior backgrounds and experiences. I also thought they were invite only unit. Was I just wrong or did that change over time?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QsnQIYVOIY
While they get many of their guys invite-only, they routinely hold briefings all over the country, at bases of almost all the services. Ryan had a guy on, Bob Poras, who said his class had a helo crew chief. I remember one guy (former SF) who said his class had an army cook. I know a handful of former CAG guys pretty well, they were all former SF/Ranger. The others are atypical and unusual.
Edited to add, unlike ST6, where you have to be a SEAL, CAG doesn't have MOS/unit-specific criteria, and will take all branches. This is the same as the SAS, who operates the same way.
Yes, selection and OTC are MOS and sending unit immaterial. “Take anyone” is a bit of a misunderstanding. CAG is extremely selective, although the courses are designed to ensure all qualified personnel get a proper chance.
Rangers are highly represented in the Unit.
I remember getting a few emails from them announcing they were basically holding hiring events at Bragg. Never gave it any consideration because, I’m not CAG material and I was just a M-Day Guardsman with no intention of going active and moving across the country.
While they get many of their guys invite-only, they routinely hold briefings all over the country, at bases of almost all the services. Ryan had a guy on, Bob Poras, who said his class had a helo crew chief. I remember one guy (former SF) who said his class had an army cook. I know a handful of former CAG guys pretty well, they were all former SF/Ranger. The others are atypical and unusual.
Edited to add, unlike ST6, where you have to be a SEAL, CAG doesn't have MOS/unit-specific criteria, and will take all branches. This is the same as the SAS, who operates the same way.
I know CAG patterned after the SAS, so that makes sense. Sounds like my understanding close to accurate. The way he says it in the vid, sounded more mixed as to who was in the Unit. SEAL pipeline is interesting, and ST6 drawn exclusively from teams far as I know. I know there's been some changes as to who can apply go to BUD's.
Yes, selection and OTC are MOS and sending unit immaterial. “Take anyone” is a bit of a misunderstanding. CAG is extremely selective, although the courses are designed to ensure all qualified personnel get a proper chance.
Rangers are highly represented in the Unit.
Anyone means = any branch. Obviously becoming a member is a very different matter and while they're not as open with their numbers, my understanding is the drop out rate during selection for the small % they even take, likely as high has BUD's, in the 80% range. Some have said higher, but I don't know accuracy of the claim.
Yes, selection and OTC are MOS and sending unit immaterial. “Take anyone” is a bit of a misunderstanding. CAG is extremely selective, although the courses are designed to ensure all qualified personnel get a proper chance.
Rangers are highly represented in the Unit.Any service member of the United States military (including the National Guard and Reserve) can volunteer for Special Mission Unit Selection.
Selection is, by its nature, selective. One must pass on his or her own merits.
I think Pannone was a Marine first, CAG has allowed all branches to try out for a while. They also do recruiting briefs and events every so often that aren't too hard to find. Of the SMUs, they're the easiest to get in contact with and start the process IME. The path used to be heavily Ranger to SF to CAG but I've understood it to have generally trended to Ranger to CAG and cutting out the SF now.
BoringGuy45
03-14-23, 15:07
From what I've heard, while CAG has always been mostly made up of former Rangers and SF guys, it used to include a decent amount of marines as well, mostly from Force Recon and other special operations capable units. I've been told by a few marines that this isn't happening as much anymore, as the Corps thought it would be embarrassing for their best guys to pass over the Raider Regiment in favor of CAG, so they stopped giving marines permission to attend CAG selection.
For what it's worth, anyone E-5 and above with a minimum of 3 years TIS should receive the email from the recruiting team when they schedule a briefing at their installation. The Unit is addressed by name in the email and the briefing is open to anyone who qualifies to attend OA&S.
I think Pannone was a Marine first, CAG has allowed all branches to try out for a while. They also do recruiting briefs and events every so often that aren't too hard to find. Of the SMUs, they're the easiest to get in contact with and start the process IME. The path used to be heavily Ranger to SF to CAG but I've understood it to have generally trended to Ranger to CAG and cutting out the SF now.
IIRC a few years back Rangers made up 75% of CAG's personnel (operators, not support people).
A good friend of mine is a retired 5th Group SF SGM. He said the reason the Rangers are so highly represented is that they are generally younger and CAG felt they can mold them to their model much more so than SF folks.
My brother in law has a friend from his old unit at Bragg that went through selection and now is part of CAG. He was a comms guy. Squared away comms guy though.
In theory, if a "spoon" (i.e. cook) could make it through all the selection and training he could be a CAG operator. Not sure if that has been accomplished before though. Last I heard CAG's failure rate is > 80%, might be even higher than that. Considering that the vast majority of candidates come from SF or Ranger backgrounds that is saying a mouthful. There is a reason they are considered "tip of the spear".
In theory, if a "spoon" (i.e. cook) could make it through all the selection and training he could be a CAG operator. Not sure if that has been accomplished before though. Last I heard CAG's failure rate is > 80%, might be even higher than that. Considering that the vast majority of candidates come from SF or Ranger backgrounds that is saying a mouthful. There is a reason they are considered "tip of the spear".
Yes, an army cook has made it through selection and the course.
They can successfully train the people who pass selection.
BoringGuy45
03-14-23, 20:31
IIRC a few years back Rangers made up 75% of CAG's personnel (operators, not support people).
A good friend of mine is a retired 5th Group SF SGM. He said the reason the Rangers are so highly represented is that they are generally younger and CAG felt they can mold them to their model much more so than SF folks.
I'm kind of surprised to hear that age is the reason, considering that the 18X program probably brought down the average age of SF soldiers. I would have thought that because the Rangers focus on direct action, have been doing more small unit missions than in the past, and spend more time on CQB, it's a bit more of a lateral move to Delta than SF. From what I've heard, most SF guys who go to a JSOC unit will go to ISA, as that unit requires skills more in line with SF.
I'm kind of surprised to hear that age is the reason, considering that the 18X program probably brought down the average age of SF soldiers. I would have thought that because the Rangers focus on direct action, have been doing more small unit missions than in the past, and spend more time on CQB, it's a bit more of a lateral move to Delta than SF. From what I've heard, most SF guys who go to a JSOC unit will go to ISA, as that unit requires skills more in line with SF.
Had a friend in the Navy who went to ISA. He was a crypto guy and fluent in a couple different languages, at work one day, gone the next. He dropped off the face of the earth for a few years but we reconnected. He cannot talk about his time or selection process or training course, so I never asked.
I know a sample of one guy who served in three branches...Navy, Army and Marines before he went Delta.
He was a Navy diver but not a seal. He did SF, Ranger and airborne in the Army but was an 11B not an 18.
I think he was Marine Recon when he got the invite.
Anyone means = any branch. Obviously becoming a member is a very different matter and while they're not as open with their numbers, my understanding is the drop out rate during selection for the small % they even take, likely as high has BUD's, in the 80% range. Some have said higher, but I don't know accuracy of the claim.
It’s higher. And as far as I know the other services have a set number of slots.
sidewaysil80
03-14-23, 23:06
One of the CAG/Delta operators who responded to Benghazi was a Marine.
https://www.raiderproject.org/blogs/news/delta-force-marine-awarded-navy-cross-for-fight-at-cia-annex-in-benghazi
I'm kind of surprised to hear that age is the reason, considering that the 18X program probably brought down the average age of SF soldiers. I would have thought that because the Rangers focus on direct action, have been doing more small unit missions than in the past, and spend more time on CQB, it's a bit more of a lateral move to Delta than SF. From what I've heard, most SF guys who go to a JSOC unit will go to ISA, as that unit requires skills more in line with SF.
When I say "younger" I don't mean 19 or 20, instead speaking in the sense of a point in their military career. From what I've been told the preference would not be a senior NCO like E-7 or E-8. An E-6 or even senior E-5 is not too far gone (if you will) into the mindset of whatever unit they currently belong to, like SF for instance. I'm sure some senior-ranking guys have done it but this is what I have been told is preferable.
I know a sample of one guy who served in three branches...Navy, Army and Marines before he went Delta.
He was a Navy diver but not a seal. He did SF, Ranger and airborne in the Army but was an 11B not an 18.
I think he was Marine Recon when he got the invite.
How was he in SF if he wasn't a 18 series? Support?
... the Rangers are so highly represented is that they are generally younger and CAG felt they can mold them to their model much more so than SF folks.The average Operator age at Selection is 26.
The average Operator age at Selection is 26.
Wow I would’ve guessed that they were a lot older.
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The average Operator age at Selection is 26.
I know things have changed over time. I recall at one time you had to be Sgt to even apply to SF, and the main pipeline to CAG was SF, so they were older. It seems per other comments, they have learned Rangers being a bit younger and more trainable has increased the Ranger pipeline over time. Correct if inaccurate, that's my recollections.
Wow I would’ve guessed that they were a lot older.
Would be more interesting to know what the average age is of those who survive selection. That might be the more telling metric.
I know things have changed over time. I recall at one time you had to be Sgt to even apply to SF, and the main pipeline to CAG was SF, so they were older. It seems per other comments, they have learned Rangers being a bit younger and more trainable has increased the Ranger pipeline over time. Correct if inaccurate, that's my recollections.
Would be more interesting to know what the average age is of those who survive selection. That might be the more telling metric.
I don’t really understand how the dark side works but I assumed that 75th being under JSOC had something to do with it too.
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I don’t really understand how the dark side works but I assumed that 75th being under JSOC had something to do with it too.
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I thought, and could be wrong (would not be the first time today), that the Rangers are under socom, not JSOC.
The average Operator age at Selection is 26.
Roger that, that's kind of what I was driving at. To us "old" bastages 26 is a mere pup, but considering (as in my case) that I left for active duty the day after I turned 18 a 26yo is an "older" troop; not quite mid-career yet but certainly experienced by then. Figure at that point most of them already have 7 or 8 years service by age 26. Maybe a seasoned E-5(P) or E-6 by then, but not necessarily yet inculcated with a certain unit "mind set" that CAG can still mold to their own specific mission requirements and mentality.
EDIT: back when I was in during the mid 80's the Rangers were "Super Grunts", which is certainly not a slam as I was just plain-old Airborne Infantry. Over time they began riding "shotgun" for CAG (i.e. Mogadishu in 1993) and became more operator-ish as time went on. Hell, last I heard they don't even have to keep a high-and-tight anymore, which was their hallmark at one time. Things evolve over time and the Rangers are a perfect example of it.
Averageman
03-15-23, 18:27
Roger that, that's kind of what I was driving at. To us "old" bastages 26 is a mere pup, but considering (as in my case) that I left for active duty the day after I turned 18 a 26yo is an "older" troop; not quite mid-career yet but certainly experienced by then. Figure at that point most of them already have 7 or 8 years service by age 26. Maybe a seasoned E-5(P) or E-6 by then, but not necessarily yet inculcated with a certain unit "mind set" that CAG can still mold to their own specific mission requirements and mentality.
I think if you are Military and you've not been injured, your likely to be in your best physical condition between 32 and 35.
I know I was.
Averageman
03-15-23, 18:27
Double Tap
I think if you are Military and you've not been injured, your likely to be in your best physical condition between 32 and 35.
I know I was.
Strength-wise yes. Not sure about endurance. By the ages you mention a guy who went in at 18 or 19 has 15+ years in service. Probably an E-7 by then.
Voodoochild
03-15-23, 22:17
Do they take space shuttle door gunners? Those guys are pretty elite already.
I thought, and could be wrong (would not be the first time today), that the Rangers are under socom, not JSOC.
Not when they’re deployed. Also the Ranger mission has shifted and if any one unit has “benefited” from the GWOT it has been the Regiment. They do more DA than SF. And now days work more closely to the D-Boys than SF. The Regiment pretty much ran the J side of the show in Afghanistan for the last ten years of that.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
03-15-23, 22:53
Matt Pranka of X-ray Alpha was a Force Recon SARC Senior Chief who was recruited to Delta. He had to switch to the Army and became a MSgt, retiring as a SgtMaj. He describes himself as the worst SgtMaj as he knew little to nothing about the Army outside of the unit.
Do they take space shuttle door gunners? Those guys are pretty elite already.
https://i.imgur.com/Va91A1K.jpg
How was he in SF if he wasn't a 18 series? Support?
My understanding is he had a SF tab and qualifications but was never officially assigned to a group and had a prior arrangement before attending SF school. It wasn't a secret classified thing so much as you need to attend these schools in order to do this kind of thing and if my memory is working he was a 11B when he left the army for the Marines.
I have a hard time keeping the tabs vs MOS thing straight so might have been an 18 for a time but was an 11B when he came out. This was also 80s /90s so what might have been how things were done then might not be how it's done today. I didn't learn he was Delta until about 2004 which was probably 2 years after the fact. I knew he was BFD but didn't realize how much.
How was he in SF if he wasn't a 18 series? Support?
The 18 Series MOS has not always existed. It wasn't created until 1987. Prior to that, there was no SF MOS and those who completed the Q Course kept their MOS and were awarded a Skill Identifier code.
There is also a difference in having successfully completed the Q Course and being authorized to wear the tab and actually being assigned to an SF Group or Detachment. I believe the 18 MOS was automatically awarded/changed for those on AD who had already passed the Q Course and were assigned to an SF Unit. There were also those who were assigned to SF units who had not completed the Q Course but could be awarded a Skill Identifier upon completion of training at the unit.
The 18 Series MOS has not always existed.This may help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Forces_Tab
Not when they’re deployed. Also the Ranger mission has shifted and if any one unit has “benefited” from the GWOT it has been the Regiment. They do more DA than SF. And now days work more closely to the D-Boys than SF. The Regiment pretty much ran the J side of the show in Afghanistan for the last ten years of that.
Thanks for the info, I did not know. So, just for my understanding, are they 'jsoc', or socom and attached to jsoc when deployed?
The 18 Series MOS has not always existed. It wasn't created until 1987. Prior to that, there was no SF MOS and those who completed the Q Course kept their MOS and were awarded a Skill Identifier code.
There is also a difference in having successfully completed the Q Course and being authorized to wear the tab and actually being assigned to an SF Group or Detachment. I believe the 18 MOS was automatically awarded/changed for those on AD who had already passed the Q Course and were assigned to an SF Unit. There were also those who were assigned to SF units who had not completed the Q Course but could be awarded a Skill Identifier upon completion of training at the unit.
Yep, understood. I wasn't thinking it could have been before the MOS designation in the late 80s.
My understanding is he had a SF tab and qualifications but was never officially assigned to a group and had a prior arrangement before attending SF school. It wasn't a secret classified thing so much as you need to attend these schools in order to do this kind of thing and if my memory is working he was a 11B when he left the army for the Marines.
I have a hard time keeping the tabs vs MOS thing straight so might have been an 18 for a time but was an 11B when he came out. This was also 80s /90s so what might have been how things were done then might not be how it's done today. I didn't learn he was Delta until about 2004 which was probably 2 years after the fact. I knew he was BFD but didn't realize how much.
Now that I work with some of the cadre at the schoolhouse for the 18D/SOIDC training, I am becoming very schooled on the tabs/MOS thing lol.
The first part of your post reminded me of another Delta guy, Bob Poras, who needed a break from time with Delta so went through the Q, went back to Delta after the Q.
This may help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Forces_Tab
Interesting. At one point it mentions someone serving 120 consecutive days and earning a CIB or CMB with a "SF Special Project Unit" (dates given were primarily Vietnam era).......wonder if that means MACV-SOG? SOG was mostly SF but some were recruited from LRRP teams, so would this mean that a former LRRP recon guy who served in SOG on a Spike Team is eligible to wear the Long Tab?
Interesting. At one point it mentions someone serving 120 consecutive days and earning a CIB or CMB with a "SF Special Project Unit" (dates given were primarily Vietnam era).......wonder if that means MACV-SOG? SOG was mostly SF but some were recruited from LRRP teams, so would this mean that a former LRRP recon guy who served in SOG on a Spike Team is eligible to wear the Long Tab?
That's a really interesting question. I have reached out to a guy I know who works in the MACV-SOG history world (VN-era SF, also in MACV-SOG).
Interesting. At one point it mentions someone serving 120 consecutive days and earning a CIB or CMB with a "SF Special Project Unit" (dates given were primarily Vietnam era).......wonder if that means MACV-SOG? SOG was mostly SF but some were recruited from LRRP teams, so would this mean that a former LRRP recon guy who served in SOG on a Spike Team is eligible to wear the Long Tab?
Per the guy, this is his response: "It does relate to SOG Recon teams. If that applies to anyone (who served on a SOG Recon team), they can request a retroactive tab through JFKSWCS. The SFA HQ can supply the reg and sample letter." So it sounds like it's limited to those personnel, and the Spike team (later designated Recon team) would qualify; however, the support teams like Hatchet, etc., would not.
That's a really interesting question. I have reached out to a guy I know who works in the MACV-SOG history world (VN-era SF, also in MACV-SOG).
We know SOG had people from all branches, wouldn't surprise me if the majority was SF. My friend Paul, who was LRRP in 'Nam, was approached and spoke with someone. I don't know what the results were, and the story I wrote took much artistic license there (https://www.amazon.com/Old-Angry-Novella-Will-Brink-ebook/dp/B0844KJ7R2), but was fun to base it on a real person, and perhaps give the LRRP's the credit etc, they deserved considering their efforts and experiences.
We know SOG had people from all branches, wouldn't surprise me if the majority was SF. My friend Paul, who was LRRP in 'Nam, was approached and spoke with someone. I don't know what the results were, and the story I wrote took much artistic license there (https://www.amazon.com/Old-Angry-Novella-Will-Brink-ebook/dp/B0844KJ7R2), but was fun to base it on a real person, and perhaps give the LRRP's the credit etc, they deserved considering their efforts and experiences.
Most WERE SF, especially on the recon teams. My dad did a tour with MACV-SOG, as a Marine, but he was with intelligence, and did not go into the field. They also got a lot of guys from LRRP teams.
Most WERE SF, especially on the recon teams. My dad did a tour with MACV-SOG, as a Marine, but he was with intelligence, and did not go into the field. They also got a lot of guys from LRRP teams.
There were SEALs involved too I recall, don't know what % they made up at any one time. The watch and knife of none other than Captain (SEAL) N.H. Olson himself is found in the UDT-SEAL Museum from his time at SOG. The man is a legend:
https://www.navysealmuseum.org/in-memoriam/honoring-the-memory-of-captain-norman-h-olson
Most WERE SF, especially on the recon teams. My dad did a tour with MACV-SOG, as a Marine, but he was with intelligence, and did not go into the field. They also got a lot of guys from LRRP teams.
Yeah, other than school-trained SF guys the LRRPs were a natural fit and prime recruiting ground. Usually 4-man LRRP teams out for days in the NVA's backyard (wherever that might be) ran similar missions as SOG where stealth and an extremely low profile was paramount not only to the mission but their survival.
chuckman appreciate the input!
Yeah, other than school-trained SF guys the LRRPs were a natural fit and prime recruiting ground. Usually 4-man LRRP teams out for days in the NVA's backyard (wherever that might be) ran similar missions as SOG where stealth and an extremely low profile was paramount not only to the mission but their survival.
chuckman appreciate the input!
And I think that demonstrates the important takeaway from all this. Delta, or whatever you want to call them, seems to be always evolving to the demands of the time and they draw from whoever best fits those demands at the time be they green berets and LRRPs, rangers or recon or even navy seals. While most of the SOCCOM community can do "most things" there is a danger to trying to use a group with a mission focus as a "one size fits all" solution such as when Team Six was used in Panama to take an airfield when maybe Rangers would have been more effective.
WillieThom
03-18-23, 02:55
And I think that demonstrates the important takeaway from all this. Delta, or whatever you want to call them, seems to be always evolving to the demands of the time and they draw from whoever best fits those demands at the time be they green berets and LRRPs, rangers or recon or even navy seals. While most of the SOCCOM community can do "most things" there is a danger to trying to use a group with a mission focus as a "one size fits all" solution such as when Team Six was used in Panama to take an airfield when maybe Rangers would have been more effective.
I think it was actually ST4 that took Paitilla during Just Cause.
However, the same sentiment still applies… sending Navy SEALs to conduct a raid that is one of the bread-and-butter missions of the 75th Ranger Regiment was foolhardy.
I think it was actually ST4 that took Paitilla during Just Cause.
However, the same sentiment still applies… sending Navy SEALs to conduct a raid that is one of the bread-and-butter missions of the 75th Ranger Regiment was foolhardy.
I know one guy who was there for that one. My understanding is they were there to take out the one plane vs the airfield per se. The real problems began with the fact the initial plan was to take out the plane from a distance, someone up high decided they wanted a trophy, and told them the plane had to have minimal damage, forcing them to walk down the open tarmac and into an ambush. That's why/where it it went side ways.
"...a SEAL officer stationed on a patrol boat offshore coordinating several operations, passed on information implying that the aircraft was to be disabled with "minimal damage" (defined as shot out tires and cut control wires), rather than destroyed.[3] This later became a point of controversy after the operation, as the message was poorly worded and forced the SEALs to change their tactics at the last minute and approach the aircraft more closely than anticipated."
The 75th did come in an take over the airfield next day after the cok up, due to last minute changes in orders.
None of those men needed to die that day.
I know one guy who was there for that one. My understanding is they were there to take out the one plane vs the airfield per se. The real problems began with the fact the initial plan was to take out the plane from a distance, someone up high decided they wanted a trophy, and told them the plane had to have minimal damage, forcing them to walk down the open tarmac and into an ambush. That's why/where it it went side ways.
"...a SEAL officer stationed on a patrol boat offshore coordinating several operations, passed on information implying that the aircraft was to be disabled with "minimal damage" (defined as shot out tires and cut control wires), rather than destroyed.[3] This later became a point of controversy after the operation, as the message was poorly worded and forced the SEALs to change their tactics at the last minute and approach the aircraft more closely than anticipated."
The 75th did come in an take over the airfield next day after the cok up, due to last minute changes in orders.
None of those men needed to die that day.
At that point Seals were a victim of their own fame and all anyone in Washington knew was "Send in some seals" because they can do EVERYTHING. For all of his CIA background, Bush 41 was a complete retard when it came to this stuff and it took an even bigger FU under Clinton for people to forget it.
At that point Seals were a victim of their own fame and all anyone in Washington knew was "Send in some seals" because they can do EVERYTHING. For all of his CIA background, Bush 41 was a complete retard when it came to this stuff and it took an even bigger FU under Clinton for people to forget it.
To be fair, Bush 41 probably did not make out the op-plan as to who did what and where. I could be wrong but he likely left the finer workings to his .mil people.
Having said that, I have read where Obama asked for ST6 to do the Bin Laden raid, as they had pulled off the Maersk Alabama thing pretty well. Others have said that ST6 had that portion of Pakistan as their area of responsibility anyway, so maybe someone can confirm or deny this.
To be fair, Bush 41 probably did not make out the op-plan as to who did what and where. I could be wrong but he likely left the finer workings to his .mil people.
Having said that, I have read where Obama asked for ST6 to do the Bin Laden raid, as they had pulled off the Maersk Alabama thing pretty well. Others have said that ST6 had that portion of Pakistan as their area of responsibility anyway, so maybe someone can confirm or deny this.
At that point the Navy had Afghanistan, the Army had Iraq. It just came down to who was assigned to what areas.
At that point the Navy had Afghanistan, the Army had Iraq. It just came down to who was assigned to what areas.
Roger that, it is in keeping with other things I had read. Obama might still have asked for them, but it was their AOR anyhow.
I despised Obama and his administration, but one of the only funny things I ever heard about with that crew was regarding the Bin Laden raid: All the mucketty-mucks were watching the whole thing go down live. Once Bin Laden had been killed they had to confirm the body was his. He was a like 6'4" and his body was stretched out and a DEVGRU guy of similar height laid down next to his corpse for comparison. Obama was reported to have commented "Jeez, a highly trained SEAL team like that and you think someone would've brought a tape measure". I have to admit I got a chuckle out of that.
WillieThom
03-18-23, 20:26
Roger that, it is in keeping with other things I had read. Obama might still have asked for them, but it was their AOR anyhow.
I despised Obama and his administration, but one of the only funny things I ever heard about with that crew was regarding the Bin Laden raid: All the mucketty-mucks were watching the whole thing go down live. Once Bin Laden had been killed they had to confirm the body was his. He was a like 6'4" and his body was stretched out and a DEVGRU guy of similar height laid down next to his corpse for comparison. Obama was reported to have commented "Jeez, a highly trained SEAL team like that and you think someone would've brought a tape measure". I have to admit I got a chuckle out of that.
I think I read, in one of the many books I have on the subject, that Obama even presented McRaven with a tape-measure (it may have even been gold-plated?) as a joke when he met the SEALs up at Fort Campbell.
I think I read, in one of the many books I have on the subject, that Obama even presented McRaven with a tape-measure (it may have even been gold-plated?) as a joke when he met the SEALs up at Fort Campbell.
Oh that would be classic! Even though it involved Obama it is funny if true. For McRaven it would have been embarrassing to have a Lefty POTUS hand you a gag gift.
For McRaven it would have been embarrassing to have a Lefty POTUS hand you a gag gift.
Are you sure? He was pretty open about voting for Biden and how terrible Trump was.
Are you sure? He was pretty open about voting for Biden and how terrible Trump was.
Well I was referring to him as a military commander, something like that gag gift should have been a bit embarrassing! IIRC he also made some anti-gun statements too didn't he?
Are you sure? He was pretty open about voting for Biden and how terrible Trump was.
I don't know why we always imagine Seal and Delta dudes must be exactly like us, especially politically.
The bad news is about 50% of those guys also vote D.
The military in general is also pretty notorious for "I support the 2nd amendment BUT nobody needs a (uzi, belt fed, grenade launcher, etc.) Lots of those guys come home and will never touch an AR-15 again because that is what they had to carry in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc. and nobody else needs on either. There is also a little bit of "I'm the only one special enough because of training and experience." It can take an extra helping of critical thinking to not fall into those mindsets.
BoringGuy45
03-19-23, 18:20
I don't know why we always imagine Seal and Delta dudes must be exactly like us, especially politically.
The bad news is about 50% of those guys also vote D.
The military in general is also pretty notorious for "I support the 2nd amendment BUT nobody needs a (uzi, belt fed, grenade launcher, etc.) Lots of those guys come home and will never touch an AR-15 again because that is what they had to carry in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc. and nobody else needs on either. There is also a little bit of "I'm the only one special enough because of training and experience." It can take an extra helping of critical thinking to not fall into those mindsets.
SOF is still a very right leaning group of guys. Leftist ex-SOF guys are few and far between. As for the rest of the military, most veterans I know are pretty conservative and pretty pro-gun, especially if they were in combat units. From what I've seen, among combat troops, the ones most likely to be left-leaning are officers.
SOF is still a very right leaning group of guys. Leftist ex-SOF guys are few and far between. As for the rest of the military, most veterans I know are pretty conservative and pretty pro-gun, especially if they were in combat units. From what I've seen, among combat troops, the ones most likely to be left-leaning are officers.
I would imagine you don't spend much time around leftist veterans. As a person who from time to time demonstrates weapons to the military, it's about the same breakdown as civie world. Given that the military has allowed things to move from "everything and everyone is green" to BLM is important and white officers need to learn to check their privilege, things have gotten a little worse.
I am occasionally surprised by political commentary in veterans groups that I frequent. While I do find the number of absolute radical whack jobs is pretty low, center left sentiments are not exactly rare. I would maybe call it 20/30/50 == leftish/undecided or agnostic/rightish in the sum of my impressions.
And I was a Marine and an infantryman; I suspect that the less combat focused service branches and departments would be more balanced than that.
ClearedHot
03-20-23, 01:19
Marines are still going to selection and serving at The Unit. And when one Marine retires, it seems like another shows up at the squadron and takes his place. Ground Branch used to be almost exclusively former CAG and Recon Marines.
https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/98186127_3094896267239983_9192703006833901568_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=xAlT2q9ERxQAX9gAR91&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=00_AfB7oX8ezJY5kespVPwHEE3WrLsq5RO0_038CA7p7xh-Mw&oe=643F5F75
https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/98201160_3094896273906649_1233378744710725632_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=1GeOamOe5HAAX9c7zx1&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=00_AfCJVLUroPdyv5NN4lg_sHY0LUOHYUnGfrowZw5yR8FBhA&oe=643F7BBF
Marines are still going to selection and serving at The Unit. And when one Marine retires, it seems like another shows up at the squadron and takes his place. Ground Branch used to be almost exclusively former CAG and Recon Marines.
https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/98186127_3094896267239983_9192703006833901568_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=xAlT2q9ERxQAX9gAR91&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=00_AfB7oX8ezJY5kespVPwHEE3WrLsq5RO0_038CA7p7xh-Mw&oe=643F5F75
https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/98201160_3094896273906649_1233378744710725632_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=1GeOamOe5HAAX9c7zx1&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=00_AfCJVLUroPdyv5NN4lg_sHY0LUOHYUnGfrowZw5yR8FBhA&oe=643F7BBF
Marines who go to CAG go as 'attached' personnel, the Marines retain the right to pull them back to the Corps. The exception are MARSOC Marines, since they don't report to the Corps anyway.
Marines who go to CAG go as 'attached' personnel, the Marines retain the right to pull them back to the Corps. The exception are MARSOC Marines, since they don't report to the Corps anyway.
OP discusses that unique aspect of the Marines also.
OP discusses that unique aspect of the Marines also.
A big reason a lot of recon Marines cross-decked to MARSOC. The Big Marine Corps did not like (does not like?) Marines homesteading in recon for their careers, they like them to move around. But the job is why recon Marines do what they do, and they don't like moving around, unless they want to. MARSOC being part of SOCOM, when they are in, they are in.
Corpsmen assigned to recon can be moved between recon and MARSOC, but the Navy pretty much lets them stay in those communities for as long as they like.
Ok, I'll ask. Why is there a pair of sig runes in the middle of that "plaque"?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230320/68b5747e9a0ca0dd63bcebdc713d4de0.jpg
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Scout Sniper insignia if I remember correctly
Scout Sniper insignia if I remember correctlyI sure hope not. I'd hope such an elite tribe that is supposed to be noted for attention to detail could have found better insignia to associate themselves with.
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I sure hope not. I'd hope such an elite tribe that is supposed to be noted for attention to detail could have found better insignia to associate themselves with.
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Marine Scout Sniper. While not adopted from the Nazi symbology, it has gotten them in a crapload of trouble, and one of the (many) nails in the Marine SS community coffin that saw their schoolhouses shut down and them written out of the will vis-a-vis Force 2030 design.
ClearedHot
03-20-23, 19:33
I sure hope not. I'd hope such an elite tribe that is supposed to be noted for attention to detail could have found better insignia to associate themselves with.
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The SS has been used by Marine Scout Snipers since the 80's.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/2/10/1328874175219/US-marines-with-flag-rese-007.jpg?width=620&quality=45&dpr=2&s=none
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0076/9949/7018/products/IMG_8871_360x.JPG?v=1535135339
The SS has been used by Marine Scout Snipers since the 80's.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/2/10/1328874175219/US-marines-with-flag-rese-007.jpg?width=620&quality=45&dpr=2&s=none
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0076/9949/7018/products/IMG_8871_360x.JPG?v=1535135339
Jeez, I'm certainly not all touchy-feely about symbols and words but couldn't they have found a better way to display SS than that? SMH
I sure hope not. I'd hope such an elite tribe that is supposed to be noted for attention to detail could have found better insignia to associate themselves with.
Agreed.
Last night I ordered "Death in the A Shau Valley: L Company LRRPs in Vietnam, 1969 - 70" by Larry Chambers off of Amazon. It will proudly be added to my military library.
Jeez, I'm certainly not all touchy-feely about symbols and words but couldn't they have found a better way to display SS than that? SMH
Yeah, I suppose double sig rhunes could arguably be nordic without a NSDAP connotation, but I still think it was a bad idea. Really easy to paint you in a bad light. I mean swastikas are technically buddhist but I don't think anyone in the US military would roll that one and double Sigs are easily the second most recognizable iconography used by the NSDAP.
Jeez, I'm certainly not all touchy-feely about symbols and words but couldn't they have found a better way to display SS than that? SMH
Agreed.
Agreed. They had to know better. No one would ever accuse the Marines of being the sharpest tools in the shed (I kid!), but come on...
If I fought in WWII, had relatives who died there (I do), was a Jew, etc, I'd find that a very stupid and poorly thought out choice of visuals, regardless of their intent.
CMC just completely bulldozed the Marine SS community. It happened for a variety of reasons, but being tone deaf then belligerent over stuff like this was part of the reason.
CMC just completely bulldozed the Marine SS community. It happened for a variety of reasons, but being tone deaf then belligerent over stuff like this was part of the reason.
There's woke BS we all reject, and there's using overt Nazi symbolism that's gonna piss people off, and rightly so. Per usual, a little common sense goes a long way. Even the Azov units in Ukraine flag is less overt then that.
There's woke BS we all reject, and there's using overt Nazi symbolism that's gonna piss people off, and rightly so. Per usual, a little common sense goes a long way. Even the Azov units in Ukraine flag is less overt then that.
When this first became a thing, and rightfully became 'a thing', they were told by friends that they needed to clean up their act and be professional if they wanted a seat at the table to discuss their employment, schools, and TTPs, or CMC and people with no ties to the community will do it for you. They basically said 'piss off.' They stepped on a lot of influential toes that ended up in positions to impact those very things. Now they are all up in arms over it. CMC addresses this in the 2030 plan by basically shifting the argument by saying 'in the new manning paradigm we can utilize SS in a different way and different format, so the traditional way is going away.'
Thanks for the info, I did not know. So, just for my understanding, are they 'jsoc', or socom and attached to jsoc when deployed? .
Like any other deployment, where your unit is assigned to an in-theater HQ unit. Like east coast 2ndMarDiv battalions being assigned to west coat 1stMarDiv RCTs “in country” and vice versa etc etc. Their home command is USSOCOM and their “in-country” parent HQ is JSOC. Sounds complicated but isn’t as complicated as it sounds.
When this first became a thing, and rightfully became 'a thing', they were told by friends that they needed to clean up their act and be professional if they wanted a seat at the table to discuss their employment, schools, and TTPs, or CMC and people with no ties to the community will do it for you. They basically said 'piss off.' They stepped on a lot of influential toes that ended up in positions to impact those very things. Now they are all up in arms over it. CMC addresses this in the 2030 plan by basically shifting the argument by saying 'in the new manning paradigm we can utilize SS in a different way and different format, so the traditional way is going away.'
Damn shame. Only takes a couple clueless individuals to f up what was a proud tradition.
Like any other deployment, where your unit is assigned to an in-theater HQ unit. Like east coast 2ndMarDiv battalions being assigned to west coat 1stMarDiv RCTs “in country” and vice versa etc etc. Their home command is USSOCOM and their “in-country” parent HQ is JSOC. Sounds complicated but isn’t as complicated as it sounds.
I'm tracking, thanks.
I was telling another via text, I work with, have worked with, CAG, SF, NSW, AF PJs (both when I was in the mil, and now in my current job). But never worked with anyone in Rgr Batt, so their culture and how they operate are a bit of a mystery to me.
CAG doesn't have MOS/unit-specific criteria, and will take all branches.
Its also worth pointing out that CAG isn't all shooters and looters. They have support, think of B and C teams.
Averageman
04-12-23, 09:29
It's always nice to have a new way to look at things..
I'm reminded of a problem the military was having dropping water from a helicopter. Everything they tried broke.
Some cook from the mess hall took and empty milk dispenser from the mess hall rinsed it out, filled it with water, worked like a charm.
But who besides a cook would have seen that and had the answer?
Its also worth pointing out that CAG isn't all shooters and looters. They have support, think of B and C teams.
My understanding is they are almost totally self sufficient with their own intel sections, etc. I'd assume the total support apparatus is larger than the door kickers.
Its also worth pointing out that CAG isn't all shooters and looters. They have support, think of B and C teams.
Yes, of course. Not all of their guys and gals go through OTC; interestingly, they do have various levels of OTC-type training, depending on what support role the person goes into. Then support folks who never touch a gun.
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