View Full Version : Japan buying FN, H&K small arms
I wonder if that unit cost for the G28E2 is a typo/mistake?:
"The General Staff Office has a total requirement for 900 G28E2's to be procured at a unit cost of JDY 7 Bn (USD 52, 744 each)and a life cycle cost of around JPY 9.3 Bn (USD 70m).
https://euro-sd.com/2023/02/news/29621/japan-to-import-minimi-mk3s-from-fn-herstal-g28es-from-hk/
hotbiggun42
03-17-23, 15:23
No swords or throwing stars?
ThirdWatcher
03-18-23, 01:42
I’m kinda surprised they’re not building them under license in Japan. I have a few Winchester/Miroku rifles and their quality/workmanship is the best I’ve seen.
I’m kinda surprised they’re not building them under license in Japan. I have a few Winchester/Miroku rifles and their quality/workmanship is the best I’ve seen.
I'd bet a donut Japan is still limited by their own Constitution and while they can manufacture arms for export, they are limited in what they can produce for their own needs. In the 1950s their entire government was built around the concept of not having any military capacity at all and their entire industrial capacity generated towards civilian markets.
From the link it looks like there is a company building Minimi MK1's, Sumitomo Heavy Industries, but it appears they are winding down production and likely don't want to tool up for the MK3 just to produce 514 guns.
oops never mind there are both 5.56 and 7.62 Minimi MK3's but looks like Japan is going with the 5.56.
https://fnherstal.com/en/defence/portable-weapons/fn-minimi-556-mk3/
https://fnherstal.com/en/defence/portable-weapons/fn-minimi-762-mk3/
ThirdWatcher
03-19-23, 00:32
I'd bet a donut Japan is still limited by their own Constitution and while they can manufacture arms for export, they are limited in what they can produce for their own needs. In the 1950s their entire government was built around the concept of not having any military capacity at all and their entire industrial capacity generated towards civilian markets.
That’s kinda sad in that almost none of these people were alive in WW2. I feel the same way about Germans and Italians.
That’s kinda sad in that almost none of these people were alive in WW2. I feel the same way about Germans and Italians.
I personally believe, despite my grandfathers feelings about Pearl Harbor, that Japan needs to nut the F up pronto with a standing army and first class navy or they are going to be learning Mandarin. I understand the Japanese were first class shitbags guilty of some of the worst horrors of WWII from Nanking to Unit 731 but I also think Hiroshima and Nagasaki made them "born again" good citizens.
I can also understand how, after having a military government from the Minamoto Bakufu in 1252 all the way through to the end of the Japanese Empire in 1945, how several people both in Japan and outside felt the country needed a complete reboot and all their sharp things taken away. To this day, actual swords are regulated in Japan in a manner very similar to machine guns in this country. 90% of the martial artists in Japan are using "alloy" blades called Iaito which cannot be sharpened.
But I think the war criminals are mostly gone and the hardline militarists seem to have died out with Mishima and his failed coup in 1966. And if Japan wants to remain Japan, they need to keep an eye on China. It would also be in our interest to support a stronger Japan in light of China's military expansionist goals.
Japan has a robust domestic arms industry. Howa has made some fantastic guns for the JSDF. It is just cheaper to buy COTS for them this go around since there is no need for R&D costs.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Kmnx1dOKVsI/hqdefault.jpg
Japan has a robust domestic arms industry. Howa has made some fantastic guns for the JSDF. It is just cheaper to buy COTS for them this go around since there is no need for R&D costs.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Kmnx1dOKVsI/hqdefault.jpg
I've got a Howa AR-180, it's nicer than the Costa Mesa ones I've seen.
ThirdWatcher
03-20-23, 01:27
I personally believe, despite my grandfathers feelings about Pearl Harbor, that Japan needs to nut the F up pronto with a standing army and first class navy or they are going to be learning Mandarin...
That’s the way I feel. My Dad (who served in the Navy during the Korean War, his ship was hit by the Norks) felt the same way. His older brother served in the Pacific in the Army in WW2, and his younger brother served as a Navy helicopter Crew Chief in RVN. I served in the ROK in the early ‘70’s (and was surprised by how much the ROK’s hated the Japanese but they had good reason to feel that way). Nonetheless I wish they would put aside their differences and form alliances with other Asian countries that value freedom like ROC, Vietnam, et. al.
ClearedHot
03-20-23, 01:38
That’s the way I feel. My Dad (who served in the Navy during the Korean War, his ship was hit by the Norks) felt the same way. His older brother served in the Pacific in the Army in WW2, and his younger brother served as a Navy helicopter Crew Chief in RVN. I served in the ROK in the early ‘70’s (and was surprised by how much the ROK’s hated the Japanese but they had good reason to feel that way). Nonetheless I wish they would put aside their differences and form alliances with other Asian countries that value freedom like ROC, Vietnam, et. al.
This. They need to put aside their old grudges and start working together to deal with the impending threat from China. If South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Thailand, Philippines and Vietnam formed an alliance, that would definitely shift the balance of power in the region.
This. They need to put aside their old grudges and start working together to deal with the impending threat from China. If South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Thailand, Philippines and Vietnam formed an alliance, that would definitely shift the balance of power in the region.
That's like saying Israel, Kurdistan, Turkey, and Iran should all be buddies.
Japan did some very screwed up things and got away with it while Germany will forever be remembered for their vile acts. Heck, the Naval side of the JSDF still flies the Kyokujitsu-ki as their ensign. They pulled into a ROK port with he loud and proud. That's like the like ther German Bundesmarine pulling into an Israeli port and flying the Reichskriegsflagge.
As for dealing with China... everyone listed except for the Philippines is gearing up for resisting China. Rodrigo Duterte as President became friendly with tbe PRC. Let's see how Bongbong Marcos runs things.
ThirdWatcher
03-20-23, 04:02
This. They need to put aside their old grudges and start working together to deal with the impending threat from China. If South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Thailand, Philippines and Vietnam formed an alliance, that would definitely shift the balance of power in the region.
Maybe the concept of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere was sound, except now make membership voluntary. I believe there are a lot of good people in Asia that just want to be left alone. I can relate to that...
Averageman
03-20-23, 06:42
As for dealing with China... everyone listed except for the Philippines is gearing up for resisting China. Rodrigo Duterte as President became friendly with tbe PRC. Let's see how Bongbong Marcos runs things.
I feel like President Marcos (funny to say that again) is doing his best right now. He's cooperating with the USN and allowing them to use the harbor and docks. He's also reworking agriculture to a degree that makes the Philippines less dependant on food imports, which is pretty key to preparing for a war.
He's also constantly dealing with Chinese ships in his waters.
Maybe the concept of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere was sound, except now make membership voluntary. I believe there are a lot of good people in Asia that just want to be left alone. I can relate to that...
SEATO failed already.
That’s the way I feel. My Dad (who served in the Navy during the Korean War, his ship was hit by the Norks) felt the same way. His older brother served in the Pacific in the Army in WW2, and his younger brother served as a Navy helicopter Crew Chief in RVN. I served in the ROK in the early ‘70’s (and was surprised by how much the ROK’s hated the Japanese but they had good reason to feel that way). Nonetheless I wish they would put aside their differences and form alliances with other Asian countries that value freedom like ROC, Vietnam, et. al.
Not sure I'd include Vietnam in the "friends" list. They are the same government that tortured our veterans when they were POWs.
That's like saying Israel, Kurdistan, Turkey, and Iran should all be buddies.
Japan did some very screwed up things and got away with it while Germany will forever be remembered for their vile acts. Heck, the Naval side of the JSDF still flies the Kyokujitsu-ki as their ensign. They pulled into a ROK port with he loud and proud. That's like the like ther German Bundesmarine pulling into an Israeli port and flying the Reichskriegsflagge.
As for dealing with China... everyone listed except for the Philippines is gearing up for resisting China. Rodrigo Duterte as President became friendly with tbe PRC. Let's see how Bongbong Marcos runs things.
Technically Japan never abandoned the rising sun flag, they simply opt for a simplified version in most cases. It's not the same as rocking the swastika. Japan also frequently used the lone meatball before and during WWII.
Maybe the concept of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere was sound, except now make membership voluntary. I believe there are a lot of good people in Asia that just want to be left alone. I can relate to that...
They need the Pacific equivalent of NATO, PTA or whatever you want to call it.
Averageman
03-20-23, 15:44
They need the Pacific equivalent of NATO, PTA or whatever you want to call it.
I'm just saying if I wanted a bunch of hardworking Sailors I would go to the Philippines to get them.
Not sure I'd include Vietnam in the "friends" list. They are the same government that tortured our veterans when they were POWs.
........and again, you'd be right.
Vietnam continues to this day to not be our Freind. It isn't widely publicized, but their Cyber Attack activity is rivaled only by China and Russia. Lots of IP theft and nefarious activity coming out of that $hithole.
Japan unveils record budget in boost to military spending (see link below). They have seen China's huge military buildup over the last 20 years or so and they know at some point in the near future they will be using it to become the world's number one super power. IMHO, once Japan is armed up it will definitely affect and throw a wrench into the timeline of China's master plan and when China invades Taiwan.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/japan-unveils-record-budget-boost-military-capacity-2022-12-23/
I'm just saying if I wanted a bunch of hardworking Sailors I would go to the Philippines to get them.
If we are doing anything the smart way, any PT alliance should always include the Philippines. They pretty much always have our back.
It is becoming somewhat less so, but historically Asian cultures have long memories and hold onto grudges harder than my hillbilly kin. Personally I think it has to do with their traditional views on revering their ancestors and elders. Like I said though it is falling off of late for good or bad.
It surprises me how many Asian cultures can go from pragmatic, "zen" attitude to fierce tribal/family animosity from one moment to the next. Sometimes in the same conversation.
Like, "My family does not associate with his family. Many generations ago his ancestor stole from my ancestors causing much suffering. He is not welcome here. That was long ago, the shame is not his. I do not blame him. Still, he is not welcome."
Makes forming alliances challenging.
It is becoming somewhat less so, but historically Asian cultures have long memories and hold onto grudges harder than my hillbilly kin. Personally I think it has to do with their traditional views on revering their ancestors and elders. Like I said though it is falling off of late for good or bad.
It surprises me how many Asian cultures can go from pragmatic, "zen" attitude to fierce tribal/family animosity from one moment to the next. Sometimes in the same conversation.
Like, "My family does not associate with his family. Many generations ago his ancestor stole from my ancestors causing much suffering. He is not welcome here. That was long ago, the shame is not his. I do not blame him. Still, he is not welcome."
Makes forming alliances challenging.
It's a safe bet China remembers they don't like several of their neighbors. I would wager lots of countries would greet Japan with "weren't you just here recently?", especially Korea and the Pinnes who experienced exceptionally difficult occupations, but I think they both know the deal when it comes to modern Japan vs modern commies, especially the super power variety. But before anyone else, Taiwan needs to be propped up. Taiwan is probably the pacific flashpoint that Berlin was during the Cold War.
I agree Steyr. So does most of Asia. Logically and rationally Japan, Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines all see themselves wanting many of the same goals. Obviously they have competing interests but largely they are on the same page.
I'm just saying that there is an almost unconscious distrust that stands in the way sometimes. Maybe that is true everywhere, but it seems especially pronounced in Asia.
I agree Steyr. So does most of Asia. Logically and rationally Japan, Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines all see themselves wanting many of the same goals. Obviously they have competing interests but largely they are on the same page.
I'm just saying that there is an almost unconscious distrust that stands in the way sometimes. Maybe that is true everywhere, but it seems especially pronounced in Asia.
It's not your imagination. I've seen it first hand, more times than I ever expected. It's a lot like Islamic "you have dishonored my house" kind of thing but without the beheadings.
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